audiokid, post: 452913, member: 1 wrote: How about you?

I'm not against using gain reduction. If transients get out of hand, I think it's useful, and there are times where I like the resultant tone as well.
One of the main features I reach for on a comp or limiter is the HPF, I like being able to be able to dial in ( dial out actually) certain low frequencies from the detection circuit of the GR.
Samp's Ammunition is a great plug for that, as is Slate Digital's FG76 blue (an 1176 sim) which has a side chain function.
Like others, I hear a whole lotta compression on mixes these days from younger recordists, who, I think, are not entirely sure about just what compression is or does.
For me, it's rarely about hearing an obvious in-your-face compression, unless I happen to be using it as part of an effect. Most of the time, I'm using easy-over, just barely moving the GR meter's needle, and I almost always look to slower attack times. Not every time, but most of the time.
When I use limiting on a mix, I almost never use it on the 2 bus of the multitrack file. Instead, I'll export a mix at around -18db LUFS, ( or so), and then I'll import the final 2 mix into another project file where I can work with limiting that way. This always gives me an unlimited 2 mix that I can revert back to if I need it. And when I do limit the final mix, I never exceed a LUFS level of -12db, with true peak set at -0.5. This gives me around 12 db if dynamic range, often more if I'm delivering that final mix to iTunes or YouTube, who like the audio to be closer to -16db LUFS.

soggy mittens, post: 452915, member: 50611 wrote: how does he feel about multi-band compression that is only effecting the low end fundamentals? xD

also when using drum machines and synth bass (which I don't know that much about) those samples/sounds would be somewhat processed into the hardware? I couldn't imagine drum machines using dry unprocessed samples, that would sound messy, right.

I don't recall multiband gain reduction as being around back then..it may have been but I don't recall seeing any outboard rack piece like that. I think that's a DAW thing. I worked in a lot of studios at that time and can't for the life of me recall it ever being talked about, let alone seeing anything like that in an outboard rack. Rather, side chaining was used to target certain ranges for reduction, (de-essing was commonly done using this method) leaving other ranges out of the detection circuit of the compressor.
Another thing that became a big part of my mixing was parallel compression. I was taught this by my instructor, back when we all worked on consoles, and I used it a lot. I still do, although it's become less needed these days because most plug processors now have a "mix" function that allows you to set how much of the reduction you want in the mix. Also, many current compressor plugs have built in HP. So you can adjust the frequencies you want to be compressed, while "passing" the others through uncompressed.
As far as compressed drum samples, Chris (audiokid) would be the guy to talk about that for the Linn - but I don't recall the Linn samples sounding all that compressed, certainly nowhere near as much as later drum machines, like the Alesia D4.
What could have happened, is that whomever did the programming on the songs where a Linn was used (and it could have been MJ himself) was that the velocities were programmed to one number across the sequence... say, 120 for all Snare strikes, 115 for all kick triggers, etc, and then when the sequence was laid over to tape, they just set their input gain accordingly at the console based on those numeric values of velocity.
This would alleviate the need to use gain reduction for transients, because the transients would all remain exactly the same, nothing would jump out, because the instrument triggers would never exceed the velocity values that were programmed.
Now, as far as using compression for a tonal vibe? From what I've gathered, taking into account his attitude towards gain reduction in general, I would think that Swedien probably reached for EQ for that instead.
To be clear, Swedien has never said that he's "never" used compression; he has in fact mentioned using an 1176 on MJ's voice, but as he described it, "just a squirt".
Although he hasn't gone as far as to define what a "squirt" means...
I know I've not yet been able to find a compressor with a "squirt" control. LOL
;)

soggy mittens, post: 452915, member: 50611 wrote: how does he feel about multi-band compression that is only effecting the low end fundamentals? xD

also when using drum machines and synth bass (which I don't know that much about) those samples/sounds would be somewhat processed into the hardware? I couldn't imagine drum machines using dry unprocessed samples, that would sound messy, right.

Big topic but a professional Drum machine is not much different than a DAW. DAW's are samplers, sequencers, processors. MPC drum machines are dedicated DAW's designed for making beats and more. They record what you put into them and the more advanced ones have processors in them as well.
The early ones however, like the LM-1 or LinnDrum (very similar) didn't record. The sounds (dry or processed) were recorded (stored) on eproms that you could tune and/or swap out for different sounds. The sounds are clips of snare, kicks, HH, cymbals etc. I had dry to very processed kits for my LinnDrum.

Wiki info on LM 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linn_LM-1
Wiki info on LinnDrum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinnDrum
This is what they have evolved to http://www.akaipro.com/products/mpc-series/mpc-x

DonnyThompson, post: 452917, member: 46114 wrote: I don't recall multiband gain reduction as being around back then..it may have been but I don't recall seeing any outboard rack piece like that. I think that's a DAW thing. I worked in a lot of studios at that time and can't for the life of me recall it ever being talked about, let alone seeing anything like that in an outboard rack. Rather, side chaining was used to target certain ranges for reduction, (de-essing was commonly done using this method) leaving other ranges out of the detection circuit of the compressor.

Radio has been using multiband reduction since the late 60's early 70's. An interesting read and research project! Dorrough , Orban, Pacific Recorders....all early players along with several others.

My first bit of knowledge of this was an old guys studio from the early 60's who used a pair of Altec comps and triggered them with an electronic crossover.

DonnyThompson, post: 452917, member: 46114 wrote: To be clear, Swedien has never said that he's "never" used compression; he has in fact mentioned using an 1176 on MJ's voice, but as he described it, "just a squirt". Although he hasn't gone as far as to define what a "squirt" means...

I have a hunch its for MJ high, squeaks, squawks, uh, ouch = "squirt" that he did all the time. The 1176 would grab those no problem.

DonnyThompson, post: 452917, member: 46114 wrote:
I know I've not yet been able to find a compressor with a "squirt" control. LOL

lol, some designer will read this thread and start thinking... hmm, I'll call the fast attack a "squirt control" lol!

i looove me sum comm-pressin! but i never used comps on drums. why would anyone want to do that? i get compression on room mics but why in the world would anyone use a comp on snare or kick? i always just set the kick and snares to hit around -3 on a VU meter and there's always plenty of headroom. then i mix everything else into that.

then again i usually only used comps when there was a problem. i consider comps and limiters as problem solvers not tools to create a sound, unless it was guitar or vocal stacks or something like that. . not to say that guys would do that are wrong, just i never did get to that point. lol.

Kurt Foster, post: 452932, member: 7836 wrote: i looove me sum comm-pressin! but i never used comps on drums. why would anyone want to do that? i get compression on room mics but why in the world would anyone use a comp on snare or kick? i always just set the kick and snares to hit around -3 on a VU meter and there's always plenty of headroom. then i mix everything else into that.

then again i usually only used comps when there was a problem. i consider comps and limiters as problem solvers not tools to create a sound, unless it was guitar or vocal stacks or something like that. . not to say that guys would do that are wrong, just i never did get to that point. lol.

I agree. But, there is a whole generation that hears stock snares, kicks as dated. Not much different than using an Opera singer to sing Metallica lol.

So when we read a thread about a drum sound or how people are compressing something... its likely not coming from the generations of the Beatles.

A few years back I invested in a bunch of compressors, did a good amount of listening and comparing. Mostly so I could learn what they did, share my opinions based on actual hands on, , and to see if I could emulate them ITB.
So, I looked to the used market, bought gear I knew I could sell for about the same price if I didn't like it.

One comp I was most interested in was the API 2500. There is much rave about it, especially for drums that I just had to get it.
Well... what a piece of crap in comparison to what I feel does does much better, which is an SPL Transient Designer 4. Its the best drum crusher comp imho. The plugin is ok but the hardware version is superior. I want another one when I can afford it..
If you have a drum machine, know enough about drum replacement, you don't need to spend $2500 for the APL 2500. ITB comps do a good job at smashing, breathing, grit imho.

i agree that the music is in the transients (and the mids).

a couple of points to be made that are relevant to the topic.

vocal riding. OG mixers did this all the time. Nashville engineers almost never compress vocals, they ride them. it takes talent and a good memory.

second, quite often in the analog era, many hits were mixed in sections and then edited for the final master. Joe Walsh's "Life's been good" is a perfect example.
Bill Szymczyk recorded it on 16 tracks at Caribou Ranch, and if you will take a few minutes and listen to it it becomes very evident there was no way that could have been a continuous multitrack with a track dedicated to each instrument. it was edited together in sections.

Kurt Foster, post: 452937, member: 7836 wrote: i agree that the music is in the transients (and the mids).

a couple of points to be made that are relevant to the topic.

vocal riding. OG mixers did this all the time. Nashville engineers almost never compress vocals, they ride them. it takes talent and a good memory.

second, quite often in the analog era, many hits were mixed in sections and then edited for the final master. Joe Walsh's "Life's been good" is a perfect example.
Bill Szymczyk recorded it on 16 tracks at Caribou Ranch, and if you will take a few minutes and listen to it it becomes very evident there was no way that could have been a continuous multitrack with a track dedicated to each instrument. it was edited together in sections.

I may be mistaken but I think my instructor was the engineer for Szymczyk on that record.
He was working at Caribou at that time, im gonna shoot him a text and ask him. Steve was a very modest guy. He engineered records for Amy Grant, Carl Wilson, Kris Kristofferson... I had to find that stuff out from other sources. Very unassuming guy. I know he talked about working with Bill a little bit... his big story was asking Bill to please not put his lit cigarette on the pads of the Neve console... lol

The interview Bob Ohlsson linked us to the other day in the Motown thread was a great read, especially regarding learning to breathe along with the singer while riding the fader.

Not to keep flogging a dead horse but is all fun and interesting to me.(a big part of my career was about this all). I'm very passionate about all this so forgive me going on.You can hear how well MJ did things at home.

Here is an early version of Billie Jean. There are a few out there. This is the LM-1 . The Snare can be tuned higher to sound exactly like it is on the final version.
4 other songs on thriller use the LM-1 as well. I think there were some politics or info left out to spare feelings .Who knows. But the hats, shaker and tight duration on things are the dead giveaways.

When I was working on consoles I used to do fader riding all the time... mostly with vocalists I was already familiar with in their dynamic styles. I honestly don't recall doing a whole lot of compression-to-tape with vocalists. I'd add hints of it on things like Snare and kick - but never any more than 2:1 /3:1 easy-over stuff, just enough to grab the occasional peak here and there.
I did use compression more than sparingly in mixes, though only when I felt it was needed, and once I was taught parallel compression, I used it almost exclusively from that point on. Rarely did I use the direct insert on the vocal track/channel routed to a compressor for reduction at the track level after that. Even today, in DAW land, I'll reach for a volume envelope editor on a vocal track, and manually drop peaks before I reach for a compressor. I'd be lying if I said I never used compression, because I do, and I have a few favorite compressor plugs that I really like, choosing one of them in the context of the performance and the type I think will work best... but never in huge amounts, certainly never anything approaching limiting, although I do occasionally use a limiter on the master bus. But even when I feel that's needed, I usually render the mix down to a 2-mix without GR on the master bus; and then I open a new project file, import the 2 mix, and insert a limiter on the master buss of that file. This guarantees that I always have a non-compressed back up that I can revert back to if needed, without having to go back into the original multi track project file.

FWIW

Do you notice a drop in sonic clarity when you activate compressor plug-ins?

dvdhawk, post: 452941, member: 36047 wrote: The interview Bob Ohlsson linked us to the other day in the Motown thread was a great read, especially regarding learning to breathe along with the singer while riding the fader.

thanks for that link Dave. i never read that article. imo Bob Ohlsson hits the nail on the head.

Not a drop, just a change. And the "change" depends upon the plug. One of my favorite compressors is - believe it or not - an older 32 bit version of Waves R-Channel, which is a channel strip with reduction. It's incredibly transparent, it adds nothing, nor does it detract anything either. It doesn't "warm" things up, or add harmonic distortion, it's just a very clean compressor.
I like Samp's Amnunition, I love how you can work in either stereo or MS, and the filters are great. I also like Slate's FG 401, an opto compressor sim, which adds some color but pleasingly so, it's a very smooth sounding sim.
I use what I feel works for the song I'm working on at the time. There is no "go to every time" processor for me. It's always about the context for me, and the context is rarely the same from song to song. And there are times I use none at all. It just depends on what I'm working on and what sonic vision I have for that particular piece.

I've not heard one comp that didn't instantly drop a sonic clarity and the more threshold added, the more I hear clarity reduce which is what I believe "is the transients shine" (including the detail of imaging). To me they are good and evil which is what I think Bruce is saying.

This is interesting:
Why to Use Compression While Tracking

audiokid, post: 452948, member: 1 wrote: This is interesting:
Why to Use Compression While Tracking

Now we're talking. Singing into an outboard compressor is SO MUCH more comfortable than without.

i don't think that when compressors were first introduced the intended application was to have as many compressors as tracks. that non sense started when SSL came out with compressors on every channel. however, the judicious use of compression can be a very nice thing but over use (ratio set too high, wrong settings for attack and release) can just destroy a track and i believe this is one of the issues that younger guns are running into.

never more than 6dB reduction and closer to 2 dB are the best ratios. and i always try to let the leading edge of the sound pass before i allow the comp to clamp down. i usually opt for the quickest release i can get. when comps are used sparingly and in this manner, they can be a beautiful thing.

at KFRS, we had a whole rack of comps, LA2 & 3's 1178, LA4's, Dynamite, Manley ELOP but not because we needed 14 channels of compression at any one time but for the variety.

Good post Kurt.

Have you used a Distressor? I've always wanted one.

Kurt Foster, post: 452951, member: 7836 wrote: i don't think that when compressors were first introduced the intended application was to have as many compressors as tracks. that non sense started when SSL came out with compressors on every channel.

I used to own the SSL G series which was a boring dead comp in an interesting way. Kept it for a few months to give it a good chance. I miss the auto fade-out, it was cool. Plugin comps are much better to those imho.

no i never bought a Distressor. i had a buddy that had a couple and he would bring them in when he booked the floor but i never warmed up to them. it seemed to me there wasn't anything they did that i couldn't get out of the other comps i had. of course if i didn't have a rack of UREI's and other stuff, i might have found them more attractive. the thing that is so alluring about them is their ability to sound like several different types of compressors but the short fall is they don't do any of them exactly like the real thing. but i can see how one would go a long way in a small set up.

Kurt Foster, post: 452945, member: 7836 wrote: thanks for that link Dave. i never read that article. imo Bob Ohlsson hits the nail on the head.

My pleasure Kurt, but I think bob Olhsson deserves all the thanks.

DonnyThompson, post: 452946, member: 46114 wrote: Not a drop, just a change. And the "change" depends upon the plug. One of my favorite compressors is - believe it or not - an older 32 bit version of Waves R-Channel, which is a channel strip with reduction. It's incredibly transparent, it adds nothing, nor does it detract anything either. It doesn't "warm" things up, or add harmonic distortion, it's just a very clean compressor.
I like Samp's Amnunition, I love how you can work in either stereo or MS, and the filters are great. I also like Slate's FG 401, an opto compressor sim, which adds some color but pleasingly so, it's a very smooth sounding sim.
I use what I feel works for the song I'm working on at the time. There is no "go to every time" processor for me. It's always about the context for me, and the context is rarely the same from song to song. And there are times I use none at all. It just depends on what I'm working on and what sonic vision I have for that particular piece.

audiokid, post: 452947, member: 1 wrote: I've not heard one comp that didn't instantly drop a sonic clarity and the more threshold added, the more I hear clarity reduce which is what I believe "is the transients shine" (including the detail of imaging). To me they are good and evil which is what I think Bruce is saying.

My most recent discovery in plugin compression is the gear from JST. Joey Sturgis Tones. I use the Finality comp a lot. Its like a good marinade.

I guess this is the vocal sound he is talking about.

And this is the Gain Reduction plugin he is talking about:
https://joeysturgistones.com/collections/audio-plugins/products/gain-reduction-deluxe?variant=35144383309

Unlike others here who have boatloads of compressors, I only have 3 outboard compressors. An La2a, 1176ln, and a Thermionic Phoenix. I would say the Phoenix is as versatile as I've worked with. I can use it for compression, for saturation (gain knob), for distortion (standby switch). And the compression, to my ears anyway, seems to be naturally slower on the attack. It's great to sing into and also great for re-micing synths and running thru the tubes for adding a little saturation without using any compression.

I'm gonna have to experiment with what that Billy Decker is saying about using multiple outboard compressors in a chain and just lightly compressing with each one. (Thanks Chris for that vid).

Davedog, post: 452966, member: 4495 wrote: My most recent discovery in plugin compression is the gear from JST. Joey Sturgis Tones. I use the Finality comp a lot. Its like a good marinade.

Thanks for the tip, Dave.

Here is the Finality comp

Here is the Gain Reduction plugin Billy Decker was talking about:

I have most of the JST stuff. There are other really cool devices. I was turned on to them by my editor who does a lot of metal and heavy rock. Fortunately the JST stuff translates across the board.

It's just in the last year or so that I've started tracking with multiple comps and analog outboard on a single source. I did some of this in the past but usually it was because of an untameable sound of an instrument or a source. A lot of electronic keyboards got various things in front of them going in to take that digital 'rasp' off of them. This always tended to clutter up what would otherwise be a great sounding multilayered synth sound. And one other trick for the last three years has been to add the Little Labs VOG 500 rack module to the DI of the bass guitars. It just aligns the low-end time to a tee.

Davedog, post: 452985, member: 4495 wrote: Little Labs VOG 500 rack module to the DI of the bass guitars. It just aligns the low-end time to a tee.

Yeah, I've heard good things about that.

Davedog Don't you also use a bass/ phase alignment tool? That's another essential which I don't have, and want.
The Radial Phazer is on my list, which is something I think could fix a problem one would normally reach to a compressor for, that could greatly be improved upon with phase alignment instead.

audiokid, post: 452987, member: 1 wrote: Yeah, I've heard good things about that.

Davedog Don't you also use a bass/ phase alignment tool? That's another essential which I don't have, and want.
The Radial Phazer is on my list, which is something I think could fix a problem one would normally reach to a compressor for, that could greatly be improved upon with phase alignment instead.

I have the UAD version of the Little Labs IBP tool. It works when nothing else will. I only use this when I get tracks from someone else. I generally know what my phase alignment is when I'm tracking and pay attention to it. It's the old "move the mic an inch" deal....The Radial is also on my list as a hardware version. You'd be surprised just how many electronic keyboards have layers between L/R that are out of phase with each other.

Another of the really fantastic JST tools is the JST Clip. Check it out. The subject of losing the transients has been mentioned. This is a tool that keeps the transients where they belong and allows a bit of grit to be added. It's a really cool device for all sorts of things.

Davedog, post: 452992, member: 4495 wrote: You'd be surprised just how many electronic keyboards have layers between L/R that are out of phase with each other.

yes! which is exactly why I want this too.

audiokid, post: 452952, member: 1 wrote: Good post Kurt.

Have you used a Distressor? I've always wanted one.

This may interest you, Chris. Pretty good video discussing the origins of the Distressor; the motivation that sparked David Derr to build it, the various functions...

Excellent demonstration. I definitely want to try the EL8 XM. Thanks for posting that, Donny.

DonnyThompson, post: 453011, member: 46114 wrote: This may interest you, Chris. Pretty good video discussing the origins of the Distressor; the motivation that sparked David Derr to build it, the various functions...

Looks like they have a plugin version for this, which I'd include more about it here if they weren't promoting BS gearslutz (shame ). (n)
http://store.empiricallabs.com/eliarousor-p/ar1-rtl.htm

audiokid, post: 453016, member: 1 wrote: Looks like they have a plugin version for this, which I'd include more about it here if they weren't promoting BS gearslutz (shame ). (n)
http://store.empiricallabs.com/eliarousor-p/ar1-rtl.htm

Slate Digital releases their version tomorrow.
I'll get it no charge as part of my monthly subscription to their Everything Bundle, and do a review on it. I have experience with the original HW Distressor, give me a few days to work with it.