Making the snare sound like Omar ... well, that's the issue, if I want it to sound that way I don't want to guess at it, I want to hear it.. if I guess at it then, I'll also need to guess at what's going on with the rest of that same range with the other instruments .. the low end .. I'm less concerned with.. my guess is that 85-90% of our hearing pleasure is in the midrange .. anyway, I can mix on the Mackies, and no they're not a bad speaker, but I would prefer not to .. hey I bought a pair too, remember!?
So what are the other two monitors you use??

K-Sound,
I don't understand what does it mean "guess". If I hear Omar's snare through my Mackies and I make my sound same or similar then I do not think I'm guessing. And the midrange and soundstage on Mackies is very good IMHO. But as I said again...it's just a matter of preference :) And yes, I use NS-10s too :)

chris

I have one more question. How do you know how much bass to add and how to eq it on NS-10s?

tnx,

chris

You asked:

Bill and Fats,
Are you saying that an engineer can't make a good souning mix on HR824s?

I said: (above if you read)

That's great! you have found something you love. Cool

And I said this:

Very cool, that is all that matters is that is is as level as you can get it (for translation purposes) and that you can work with the speakers you have.

What part of that did you not understand?

Bill,
I understood what you were saying. However I do not understand how do you know how much bass to add and how to eq it on (for example) NS-10s?
To me NS-10s (like many other monitors) lack the bass and this is where I have to GUESS the proper levels. Of course over the years I learned those monitors so NOW I KNOW. I guarantee that same thing is would work with Mackies. Nobody will ever produce great mix on ANY monitor without LEARNING it's sound first. That's my message. That's what I'm trying to say. Don't you agree with it?

tnx,

chris

I apologize for all the typos or any other type of errors I make in my posts. I just type too fast and never go back to read it :) It's like composing...i love to be driven by my emotions :)

tnx,

chris

On NS10's, the first thing you learn with them is to trust them.

So it sounds ugly, first you work your ass off to make them sound like the finest sounding speaker you have ever heard. It can be done, you manipulate your mix to make the smooth and mellow and just awesome.

It is not the NS10 is nasty, it is the professional sound realm that dictates you make the NS10 sound proper. The real engineers realized this point. It goes back to the old days of protocol. It is how electronics from pro to consumer is set up to operate and work properly.

Then you have the problem with them not being able to go below 60hZ in output but the cones are getting everything because they are linear dynamic. They see all frequencies whether you can hear them or not. Time to use the eyes.

You learn now to watch the white woofers and realize a Kick drum will move the cone twice as far as a bass line and you apply serious power to them. Like 200 watts a channel. Yamaha made slip mats so they would not scoot off the meter bridge as an option. I personally had 500 watts per channel on mine. You watch the cones just as you watch the waves in an editor and vibe with what is going on there all the while balancing with any harshness (that should never be heard on NS10's in the professional realum) and make them sound like the smoothest most translucent thing ever.

Engineering in the true sense is not a cat that bought a bunch of equipment and makes it sound good.

Vast properties of protocol are laid into this field for 50 years on how consumer gear is built and arranged to coincide with such protocol.

No serious song is relased unless it passes the rigurious standards of said protocol.

You want to go pro, listen to me. Cats that know this make 200K a year. I have because I have been there and as in independent, I am heading for much bigger things than that.

I am here to teach you what the real deal is.

Their are forces at work to keep you from hearing or knowing this knowledge. That is why me and fats and K sounds are so passionate about this. It is not an argument, it is is your ignorance, not stupidity. A stupid person will not listen. An ignorant person never had the chance to listen.

Now listen.

I am not BSting you.

It is not a shot in the dark, it is a formula. It is established and it must be learned and it must be exersized.

Once you trust them and change everything (in the pro realum) to sound perfect from 60hZ up (and watching the cones (an artform) then it is now time to take it to the next step which is to a mastering house, out of your hands.

Another set of ears that are trained with tens of thousands of hours of audio listening is now the person you trust to make the final adjustments required for your works to play back on all systems. Realize that 31% of all record company profit is provided by the company called MUZAK that does back ground sound in grocery stores. This is a political influence.

One of my jobs is to remaster things for other broadcast realms that were not translating.

This mastering house will provide the translation that is proper in the professional format , to the consumer format. That is what mastering engineers do for a living. The consumer format encompasses everything to the 8 year old with their walkman to the thousands of grocery stores that subscribe to MUZAK to the radio, streaming, CD sales, and satt links for dish net, cable and about 20 other formats I do not care to mention.

If you saw the whole picture, then you would not blindly say this or that.

It is much larger than you, me, your speakers, your room, or mine. it is what *has* to happen in protocol.

You either do it the way the standard has been presented, or you are not coming in.

I am here to teach you what to do, to get in!

I want everyone to be able to get in but there are rules and they were not mine.

More.....

It is protocol.

If you are working in the professional format, and try to end up with something sutible for matering using the pro sumer format speakers, then the mastering engineer has a clusterfuck on his hands. Something that could have been mixed right but it is not and no mastering engineer can fix a mix that was out of calibration.

Protocol dictates that you stay within the dynamic realm of professional standards during the mix, and you then send it off to another person to do proper mastering that is a true professional in this.

the first thing I do when I wake up is run to my new NS10's and kiss them...
I have the mackies too and I like them but I think Bill is right, the low end is not accurate in my opinion

hey, now it is my turn! I agree with Bill and Cedar about the HR824´s. I was really saving some money to buy a pair of them... I did long listening tests in my 2 rooms, a bad too dead and a live balanced one, and was not that big thing....
I am not a big fan of NS10´s either. listening fatigue, 1k to 3k bump... seems they imitate the soun of 70´s/80´s consumer stereo systems. Any $50 stereo system nowadays reproduced much more bass than the old good NS10´s.
Maybe it is just too much prejudice of mine, might sound funny to ya.. it is a question of knowing your speakers, but I became much more comfortable with the Monitor Ones, which have a hyped bass, undefined 80 to 135hz, tubish mids...

So what else shall be used at the $1000 price range? Cedar comments the KRK monitors...

Thanks
:D

Bill,
Thank You for the reply. I am glad I can learn something new and I totally agree with you on the protocol thing. But as I was reading your reply I realized that what you said about NS-10s is exactly what I was trying to convey to everyone since my first post: WE HAVE TO LEARN HOW OUR MONITORS SOUND. No matter how good or bad the monitor is we MUST learn it. We must learn NS-10s same way we have to learn mackies. Thats all I wanted to say. Another very important thing is to listen to your mixes on other monitors (and all variety of speakers) before you send it to mastering.

tnx,

chris

p.s. I use CAPS for emphasis. It is not screaming.

Mario-C,
Mackies not accurate? Ok..so are NS-10s. I rather learn how to eq bass on mackies than "look" at the speaker hearing no bass and then trying to eq it properly:) it's just a matter of prefernce. Another thing is that it is easy to monitor on HR824s for long hours while on NS-10s it is absolutely impossible. I would rather go play golf or something :)

Alecio,
I used Monitor One for one project and they are ok, yet for me compared to to mackies they sound lifeless. Still much more pleasing than NS-10s.
Well....as I said...it's all a matter of preference...but if you ask me I won't sell my mackies :) I LOVE THEM!

tnx,

chris

Yoda says:

Until you master the ways of the NS10 ,you are not going to achive master status.

Mackie is the easy way Route. Shortcut.

You will still be a baby.

Work very hard for best rewards. Work very hard and diligent. Make NS 10 sound better than mackie and the you will achieve rewards.

The crossover in NS 10's are more accurate than in a lot of other monitors. It's that … and the region it is in, that makes NS 10's so useful. I'm not sure what it is but the NS 10's have the ability to show me exactly what is going on in the 500 Hz area … First, if I can get the 500 sounding good on NS 10s … and all the sounds are smooth and NOT peaky and harsh sounding, when I switch to other speakers everything is ok. But if I set up the mix on other speakers and switch to the NS 10's it almost always sounds sh*tty! I mix primarily on the NS 10's switching up to Tannoy DMTIII 12's to listen for ultra highs and lows and checking on Auatones for a boombox check.

NS 10's go down to 60 Hz which is about what the common hi fi speaker will do. All that bass you guys are whining about, isn't usually heard on most stereos, unless some one has an audiophile grade system or by some wanker who is trying to deafen himself and everyone else with a subwoofer in a car! You know, BOOM, BOOM-Boom-Boom, BOOM! And who gives a sh*t about that? I don't. I mix music, not noise! The average home stereo doesn't usually do much below 60 Hz. 60 to 100 Hz. is where you NEED to be focusing, not 40 and lower! Make it sound good and full on the small speakers and then switch to a sub or larger speakers to make sure you aren't overdoing it. Listen to a commercially produced CD, there isn't that much bass on it. Less than what most novices would try to put into their mix's. The music's in the midrange! (Where'd I hear that?) ………… Fats

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,
Genelec, Hafler, KRK. Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Fats, it is hard to describe linear dynamics.

Anyone have any thoughts on the yamaha msp-10s? I'm about the only person I know that has them.

Hehe,
I see that NS-10s become the best monitors available :) :) :) Too bad most professional recording studios do not use them as their primary tracking and mixing monitors :)

txn,

chris

3dchris,
Before I say this let me say I am sorry to be coming off like a smart ass and like I'm on an ego trip but it is the only way I can think of to make my point! Do you own a professional commercial studio? I did until about a year ago. I sold out and retired at 49 with the money I made at it. You can do a net search on my name and find at least 9 listing of commercial albums I have recorded that were released. I can't begin to name the demos I have done that have sold bands or songs to labels, management teams publishers etc. I have received HUGE checks in the mail and wire transfers with my studios name on them for record projects. I'm here to tell you that a LOT of studios and engineers / recordists still use NS10's as their primary speaker to track and mix on. It's a fact. Just open a copy of Mix, EQ Pro Sound News or any other recording industry magazine… the common thing you will see in a lot of studios? NS 10's! You will see more sets of NS 10's than any other speaker. One thing you WON'T see… Mackie speakers, or Event, or Behringer, or Alesis, or … well you get the point. (I hope) ……..

This can go on forever. I have seen this discussion for at least 6 months now here at RO. There are the guys who have made records and have gained a lot of expierence recording who will admit that NS 10's are an industry standard and that quality monitors come at a price. There is no free lunch! . Then there are the guys who seem to think there is a cheap way out or worse yet that they know what works better. The sad fact is they don't. I have tried to explained this at least 10 times and I just don't know what else to say about it.

I understand a persons reticence to buy a set of speakers that don't sound flattering. I felt that way once also. I thought NS 10's were awful sounding. And they can be. But they sound bad on material that sounds bad. They are bare bones truth, all the wart exposed, worst case scenario thing. The bottom line is if you try them, give them a chance instead of sitting a whining about them, really get in and track and mix on them, after a while you will never want to give them up. People who have used them and say they don't work are lying, have some other agenda, are full of sh*t or simply just don't know any better. It is possible for someone with no taste at all to spend an obscene amount of money on audio gear and set up a studio. Unfortunately there are a lot of them and they're always willing to chime in with their two cents. This is what causes so much confusion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,
Genelec, Hafler, KRK. Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

I think Bill's statement kinda sums it up .. not just for speakers, but compression as well (another can of worms!), and oh yes, EQ, and Effects (two more cans..!!).

"There are forces at work to keep you from hearing or knowing this knowledge. That is why me and fats and K sounds are so passionate about this. It is not an argument, it is is your ignorance, not stupidity. A stupid person will not listen. An ignorant person never had the chance to listen."

I can mix on NS-10's .. no problem .. I'd rather not.. I had my pair and paid my dues, thank you.. matter of fact I'm getting to the point where I can get a fair idea where I'm at with most any speaker .. it only took a few years of listening .. no too long.

As for the "guess" at a sound ... well,with any speaker that is hyped somewhere (low, mid, high, whatever).. You will guess, I really mean that .. you may think you're hearing that snare, but take the sound you hear, and do an A/B with Omar's snare everywhere for a week or two .. I doubt it'll stand up to consistancy of the Omar snare .. and that's because of knowing how things will translate. This does not mean that you may not have a great snare sound, far from my point ... it's just that Sting's engineer and mastering house are on a bit higher plane... certainly than I am, I respect that and try to learn from that. It's worth a try to shoot holes in your own work and compare it to something you like. How can you loose?

Last, and really way far from least,are two other things .. #1 I have a good grip on, #2 I don't but in time, I'll learn ... sure I will :) :
#1. It is the engineers job to produce a product that can be artfully mastered, which means he better know the fundemental frequencies of things, and not have them getting in the way of each other. This is SO SO important, and what makes mixes stand up .. can you say: The Beatles?
Think how those mixes and mastering have stood up to all old and new sound systems.. it's unreal.

#2. (Here's where I get ignorant!) The mastering house has more than a few sonic delights available. They can not be used if the provided sound is lacking the basics, or has been tained with dynamic processing that can not be undone.I'm not sure, other than the prep of #1, what us engineers should know about so they can be used to the fullest.This is what I need to learn .. any others in my boat?

My personal guess would be .. for ME .... that it'd take almost as much time to grasp the in's and out's of some mastering, as it did for tracking/mixing EQ, and compression .. a bit shorther, because I fell up the 1st three flights, and I don't have to climb them this time around. I am smart enough to tell you how much I don't know ... TONS:)

I feel the need to repeat myself as no one has address this question / statement. This has a lot to do with this disscussion.

The average home stereo doesn't usually do much below 60 Hz. 60 to 100 Hz. is where you NEED to be focusing, not 40 and lower! Make it sound good and full on the small speakers and then switch to a sub or larger speakers to make sure you aren't overdoing it. Listen to a commercially produced CD, there isn't that much bass on it. Less than what most novices would try to put into their mix's. The music's in the midrange!

All this focus on deep bass is such a huge load! Especially in pop music. If your producing rap ( a totally different argument) you need to hear a lot of low (you'll be deaf in a few years anyway but it doesn't matter, because rap isn't supposed to sound good) but other than that, the only reason to even think about what is going on below 60 Hz. is to make sure your not overdoing the deep bass inadvertently. Quick checks on a larger main system will confirm that. Other than that, 90% of the playback of your precious work is going to be on systems that really don't do much below 100 cycles!. All in all, 60Hz. is pretty low! I would much rather hear concern at what is going on above 20,000 cycles. That is waaaay more important.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,
Genelec, Hafler, KRK. Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Hey Cedar .... I tried to deal with the midrange issue in a post back on page 1(?)
.. the low end .. I'm less concerned with.. my guess is that 85-90% of our hearing pleasure is in the midrange .. anyway,.....
Hey, I had to go look and find it .... and I wrote it!
So, yes, you are 100% right.

If you want bottom (to impress the clients) get an 18" sub, and 1,500 or so watts, and a switch to throw that in when the mains are playing. I had a friend do that and it was AMAZING .. and you'll never hear it again like that anywhere!

And .. you're still right!

To K-Sounds:

Jimbo,

You wrote:

#2. (Here's where I get ignorant!) The mastering house has more than a few sonic delights available. They can not be used if the provided sound is lacking the basics, or has been tained with dynamic processing that can not be undone.I'm not sure, other than the prep of #1, what us engineers should know about so they can be used to the fullest.This is what I need to learn .. any others in my boat?

Lets address this!

If the mix is off in dynamics but the freqency balance is good and the mixing of the instruments and panning and details are there, Yes, the dynamics can be restored. Not by a box or a plug in but with manual wave shaping that is tedious and time consuming.

IF you throw in bad mixing and bad dynamics, then it is time for a remix.

IF you include poor panning, most of that can be restored.

If you have simply the EQ is off, this is when it becomes a real chore.

This means it is off on each channel subsequent to the mix. The solos are messed up.

Then you have dynamics within a channel fighting dynamics in another channel, the linearity of this becomes totally wacked and to restore or repair this, although I have to do it, requires thinking so far outside the box that it simply cannot be taught as you are making new rules up with every render, sometimes into the thousands.

Well...it can be done but sometimes I ask myself, Why did these folks put theirself in the position to ruin my life?

So... I was taught pretty well by my old buddy. These are good habits to try to reach, not only do they make the engineer look good, it gives you a real good shot too. I'm banking this on the idea that knowing why you are turing an EQ, or any other knob, and knowing also .. and this is my key, that when the EQ doesn't do what you know it should, then stop, and go back to the mic and start over, something is wrong, that can't be fixed in the mix.
Speaking of fixing things in the mix.. I have something to say on that one:
Fixing things in a mix should be a pleasure and not a band aid .. where to pan, fun with the song ... not mute this, drop that, pitch correct this .. of course there are those sessions, but you can avaoid a lot of them by just not starting things till they are right.

Now, a bad mix can be float downhill to the mastering house, and the engineer will blame them to avoid the gunfire, eh?!
I've heard many a bad pro LP and CD, so I know it is a two way street, but I would not be surprised if many mastering jobs might have been different if more communication occured with the folks who played and mixed it .. yes.. no?

TO Fats:

You are correct that most systems used in the home start rolling off heavy below 60hZ.

TO: The gentle reader who wants to hear the truth.

Bose wave radio goes to about 60. Hundreds of thousands in use. The small 3 piece mini Systems that sport 40 to 70 watts per channel, yes around 60 hZ, rolling off fast below that. Millions in use. Walkmans' with factory headsets, 80 ond down is petering out. Many Many millions in use (by the buying public, ages 7-15 group buys or has bought, about 35% of popular music) *Factory* car stereos (the largest market and possably the most mins /day of higher volume listening too) many cut off under 50hZ but for example the new Camery (2003) bone stock can reproduce a faithful 50hZ. That system actually sound pretty good.

So there you have it.

Now what is left?

1. Live concert goers listening to PA, yes most PA's are eq'ed to roll off below 45hZ (except special efx sounds)

2. Audiophiles (2% of buying public estimated).

Many many (most) """Audiophile speakers""" have a major problem with a strong boost (acoustically amplified by the room)in the 50hZ range as do so many of the "new and improved" amature/semi pro studio control monitors. Since audiophiles (audiofools) are a niche market, it does not really make a lot of sense to master for this eletist crowd. I use to master exclusively for audiophile systems and on certain genres, I still do to a point but what matters is that the majority of folks buying your wares (people with factory car stereos) need not have their systems overloaded by foolishness mastering. It is high time audiophile loudspeakers resort back to accuracy in a modern room, not just in an anechoic chamber. How many homes have anechoic chambers in them? This "bass race" is as bad as the loudness race that exsist amongst the folks in mixdown stage doing all the 2-bus compression.

Here lies the biggest problems:

*Home-made woofer boxes in automobiles.
*Custom car stereo.
*Home Theater sound (with mono sub (yuck))
*Poor DVD authoring, non standards between authoring facilities.
*Audiophile Speakers and systems (usually no tone controls either)

The entire bass realm is now Skewed in favor of demanding (those that are have passion for sound) the freqencies below 60hZ get "special attention" so their mega dollar home theater, car stereos, and audiophile speakers strut their stuff in the 35hZ range. Sadly alot of these systems have the major problem from 36 to 55hZ as in Boost..boost boost. Sometimes up to 16dB! ..and nothing below 35 to speak of. One dude had 8 15 inch woofers in his car and he was up 40dB at 55hZ! and down 20dB at 30hZ! A 60dB swing! (YUCK!)

I heard the statement from an audiophile once, "The Beatles has no bass at all compared to modern music"

Nothing can be farther from the truth. The beatles albums I have auditioned have proper bass balance from the entire spectrum for the music playing. The key Word, Music. No artifical boom on the kick, no roaring bass line.

People do not know what accuracy sounds like anymore!!

When you listen carefully to high fidelity, their really should be no hint of outstanding lowest freqency response, until it is in the program. 50hZ should not "Boom out" but their should be something happening with the system if a 25hZ pedal is performed. Subtle but it should at least be there as the notes in the 70 to 100hZ range but this comes at mass expense that few listeners will ever enjoy.

The single sub woofer in home theater is another problem. The mix has to be designed with mono (not summed) bass in mind. A single woofer cannot be in two different positions at the same time. Their are phase cues in live recording (and natural sound) that exsist dictating that bottom freqencies have some phase shifted information to sound "real". Also summing the bass (you guessed it) adds about 3dB to the signal throwing the entire balance out of wack.

Then home subwoofers not only have a level control but a crossover freqency to dial in further messing up the intended balance. This mated with other 5 speakers in the room adds to living KAOS!

(Does it sound good? hell yea, listen to those dynosaurs feet! Listen to all that bass..WOW it is Disneyworld!!) Who in hell heard a damn dynosaur anyway?

Face it, the general public does not know how something is supposed to sound anymore.

I have known wonderful audio engineers throw in the towel and give up because you cannot change fate. It is a pipe dream. All the higher dollar stuff out there is reproducing terrible inaccuracies in bass reproduction. Mainly due to design, demand and poor room interaction.

A truly accurate loudspeaker will not be well received by the status quo and the studiophile community has been suckered in to sub woofers, speakers with a boost between 35 and 55 hZ (from the room rise) and so forth.

As far as our art goes, lets face it. It is being fucked. The true lab coat technician of the mid 60's running presicion audio and fine tuning all the gear for accuracy is almost a thing of the past. Well it should NOT be. But it is. Go out and buy a 300 dollar plug in, a set of Mackies and all of a sudden you are a mastering engineer. Screw the ones that have dedicated over a quarter of a century in loudspeaker measurements, audio engineering, acoustic design and musicianship and knowing what sounds "correct". Bob O., Do I hear your ears buring again?

When it comes down to it, take 2 microphones and record some live Jazz with no boost, cut, or compression and play it back over an accurate set of speakers and you start getting these dumb looks as if this is some new level of audio reproduction when in fact, they are hearing it correctly for the first time. It does not have that WOOOO WOOOO WOOOO sound, it has total absence of it and the speakers only play what are spoken to them. You can hear the sound of flesh against wire on the acoustic bass and the sound of the ring on the bassist fingers touching the wood on the neck as he or she plays the doghouse. You can see the whirl of drumstick flying through the air before the strike of the skin on the drum and the total tonallity is left intact of the drum with the full delay of that drums resonance lasting for what seems an eternity compared to the modern "splattt" sound I hear on drums these days from studios. You hear siliva in the singers mouth and all of the breaths and phrasing and DYNAMICS! The guitar sound exactly like the amplifiers speaker and room that the guitarist is using. I swear you can even tell when he is smiling too. The kick drum has its own resonance, not one that is "manufactured" by close mic techniques and loudspeakers and poor listening room acoustics.

This is all but getting destroyed.

I think it is high time for folks to wake up and realize what audio engineering really is.

Audio engineering means:

1. You know music backwards and forwards. You have an appreciation for therory and can play several instruments fairly well and know all the jargon of the musicians to provide a comfortable vibe for them to work in.

2. Knowing calibration and measurements. Do you calibrate your studio everytime before a session? Do you have a clue how this is done?

3. Knowing simple electronics therory enough that if you need to build a trigger or a gate, you can go down to radio shack and buy the parts and design and build one in a couple of hours.

4. Knowing when something sounds correct on all loudspeakers.

5. Knowing every piece of your equipment and know when not to use it. Know how to calibrate it with a meter and how to actually repair the damn thing too if it goes on the fritz.

6. Knowledge of acoustics and physics. MATH!

7. Having an open mind enough to be able to try something, no matter how wierd it may seem at the time, to gain knowledge of what NOT to do.

Well, this is turning into a book but all of the above are points to ponder.

We all must agree that things are NOT looking good for the recording arts.

In Mastering, I am having to do things unheard of 15 years ago to achive proper balance and this is with decent mixes. Some of the stuff I see today is Unmasterable (35% of it)

What do you do?

You can start by running a frequency sweep from 20hZ to 200hZ (even with the radioshack meter) and repositioning your loudspeakers and doing some acoustical work to your studio to kill that huge rise that is being experienced in the bass range. IF you can go from 200 down to 40hZ and not have the meter fluctuate more than +/-3dB, you have gotten somewhere in a hell of a hurry.

Compare it to a sweep from 200 to 1000.

That will be an eye-opener for sure.

Hi Bill, With regards to your last post, what do you think has pushed the general public to chase after highly unrealistic EQ and timbres? I live in Canada and in the winter time I can hear some guys subwoofer pounding his brain silly 3 car lengths ahead in rushhour traffic with his windows rolled up. If it's that loud through two sets of windows and two vehicle carcasses spaced 40 feet apart, above traffic noise floor and my own radio level, just what is the spl inside his vehicle? How artistic is this? Let me hear the mids and highs from his car in the same circumstances and then I'll be truly impressed!!

It would seem people do not want realism in the music they listen to anymore. Acoustic instruments and talented voices get pushed aside in favor of sounds that are unidentifiable as any particular instrument.

What is the next step when Joe G. Public tires of the present trend in music, If they retain any hearing? How much further can things go before people start striving for realism, which is fast becoming a dying artform?

Bill Y.

Bill, I think it has pushed the manufactures to do this is what has bothered me. It completely ruins all chances of getting back to organic sound. Hell even classical concerts are being put through the most gosh awful sound systems imagineable with 56 microphones and a FOH person that has no clue as to how an orchestra actually balances. For example, take the Bassoon. It is a limited dynamic device/instrument. The loudest you can play a bassoon at 1 meter distance before you split a reed is about 96dB. Contrast that with a cornet (126) and a trombone (124) and a solo violin (108). During a chreshindo, you will not hear the bassoons.. but I went to a concert where the bassoons were drowning out the french horns. Get this, 2 bassoons and a contra against 7 french horns! Damn I say.

I think it is a combination of what manufactures "want" the public to hear and a combination of sheer ignorance. An unwillingness to stand up and say, this sounds horrible and I am not subscribing to it.

Their is some hope. I see nashville trying to go back to its roots. As long as you have Shania and the glitter/belly button crowd running the show, nope. It will get worse.

Little facilities like mine will continue to do a project now and then and maybe they will get their chance to shine. I got into this business by breaking the mainstream mold and doing at another level. Their may be hope but it can only come in numbers. We are slaves to the paying client sometimes.

I will admit. In 1993-96, I did a lot of rap productions because that was what the studio owner wanted to have in the studio I worked for. The ASR10 would have "cassette taped samples" on it and it did not take long to convince the fellows that we could have real horns and real instruments on their album since we were in New Orleans. They were so excited.

One guy said "I wanna do my shit old school"

Unfortunantly, the lable was not. They wanted the nasty demo sound and it was recut (at my cost) back to the cassette samples. Needless to say, it did not go anywhere..but that was one out of 24 rap groups I worked with and some of them really opened up to the organic idea. One cat thought the only way you could go to tape was through the sampler and he wanted to sample the live recordings we did and punch them in his self at 16 bit 24KHZ Mono.

Well, it is about education. I am not trying to rewrite the book as it has been pointed out, cannot be done at all. I would just want folks to realise that I said my piece about this and I stand by it. If the whole furball is going in the toilet, I do not want to be a part of it.

I can repair computers for a living actually...

Oh, btw, most boom systems run in the area (cars) from 138 to 154dB on bottom.

First, let me say to Bill that I agree with everything you said in your last post, and have strived to accomplish everything you brought up, at least with my own personal music - hearing subs from 2-5 cars away makes me want to reach for a 12 gauge - they want low boom, here 'tiz... Yeah, I know it's socially un-acceptable, but I can dream, can't I?

I also (usually) agree with most of Fats' comments, although it's more fun to argue with ya pal :=)

On the subject of music and where it's going, I'm really hoping that artists like Diana Krall, Flim and the BB's, Chris Botti, etc, don't ever go away - can't say the same for (C)rap...

On the subject of Bill and Fats' nearly most favorite soapbox, otherwise known as NS-10's - I understand the how and why of mixing on them, checking low bass on big-un's, and would probably have rushed right out and bought a couple pair of them except for one small, itty bitty un-spoken problem -

YOU CAN'T GET KNOWN GOOD ONES ANYMORE!!!

Unless you guys have some secret sources, the noise I hear on the net is that even if you find a pair on Ebay or DigiBid or wherever, they are 90% sure to be roached! In case you guys haven't heard they are out of production and you have to be one of the "Golden Boys" to get a decent pair, so what difference does it make if guys like me who've been inching toward a decent studio for 15 years while maintaining a day job/family, DO understand what you're talking about? You got a pristine pair of NS-10's you'll sell me? Got a workable substitute? 'Cause if you don't, you're a lot like God telling all those hard-praying sinners, "Hey, man, Heaven is great, the only way to go - Tough shit you'll NEVER get there..."

Sooo, I'm really glad for you what's already GOT your precious NS-10's - Now, either tell me what I can ACTUALLY BUY that will do the same, or STFU... Steve

(didn't really mean the STFU part, just really REALLY frustrated by being told what I need and why I can't HAVE it...)

BTW, I was DEAD SERIOUS when I asked if you had a KNOWN good pair of NS-10's you'd sell me - That part, at least, wasn't just frustration talking... Steve

Seems to me a couple NS10s with cooked tweets are a fine equivalent to a set of Aurotones, Hee Hee Hee...
A little light humor-
Bill Y.

Knightfly,
I feel your pain. I dread the day my NS 10's draw their final gasp! I still have hopes that due to popular demand Yamaha will resume production of NS 10's or at least replacement parts. The woofers would be shopping bag brown but that doesn't mean sh*t to me. Just as long as the sound the same. In the meantime I' look at the KRK V8's and the Hafler speakers. I have heard a lot of mentions that the V8's were very NS 10 like.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK.
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

The best NS10s were pre 93 reissue.

That is when they had 3 ply cones instead of 2 and the rounded tweeter grill not the squared off one.

Any NS 10's are better than no NS 10's at all!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK.
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Yikes! NS-10 mania .. if you need tweeters .. I got replacements back in late 90's from Auralex.. they were far better protection wise, and did not blow. I believe I still have the old pair I took out, screwed to the wall where I have other blown speakers.

As for the issue Bill brings up about +/-3db .. how about +/-1db through the whole range except below 45hz? That's what I have. Not too shabby for reading, listening, asking questions, and building myself. I will give credit to all my friends whole helped me, and to myself for thinking before building, for once!

As for Rap and the existing loss of sound "values", this started with Disco, and the sudden deep drop in overall creative music in 1970-71. It's been a very long time since music has been "creative and well" as a whole .. there are only bits and pieces of great things, not a proliferation as there was in the 50's-60's. That is the part I don't get really, why it just fell down, other than a very good bunch leaving this earth. Nat Cole, Brook Benton, Dianah Washington .. think they needed pitch correction? I think not.. they knew, as most do not now, that you should have and need to have .. talent to get into a studio and produce a record. Now you need a drum loop machine, and a revised version of some old popular tune. So marketing drives us all, studios, labels, and consumers. Kinda makes us like cattle lead to slaughter sometimes, doesn't it?!

It all started going downhill when the ability to "punch in" and "punch out" was achived. At that moment, the talent level it took to record a record was brought down several notches.....

Fats.. great and right to the point, I will have to remeber that one. I think "fixing it in the mix" came next?

I just took an hour or so to read through this entire thread. Thanks for all the explanations and such. It's been a great ride.

I'm still admittedly rather new to mixing (and every thing else audio) and still don't know my anus from a hole in my Gibsonette's speaker cone. But I've been using a pair of Mackie HR824's in my relatively-decent basement "room" for, oh, maybe 2 years now. They're the only monitors I own. I've had a difficult time with nearly every mix when it comes to getting the bass right. So far, I've figured it's due to room modes and inexperience. I usually get around it by burning a lot of CD-R's and taking them up to my stereo hi fi system (decent componetry but not anything outrageously priced). Those cross-checks are sometimes surprising. The explanations here help make a lot of sense out of this situation for me.

Now I have a concern about learning to mix using these HR824's. Are there any inexpensive monitors that would do a good job of compensating? NS-10's are no longer available. How about those PSB's? I've been very impressed with them at an audiophile shop here in town, and was amazed at what such small speakers could do at a reasonable price. But which model of PSB would be suitable? Of course, I would have to get an amp, too. I guess there's just no way I can make this investment right now since I've been unemployed for over a year now and money is tight. But I'm always planning ahead, you know. (heh heh, dreaming, more likely)

Esteemed moderator, please buy the upcoming RAP CD set (A Fifth of RAP) and give me some critical feedback on my submission. See if I managed to avoid HR824 typical wackiness, or if I was sucked right in. I really would like to hear your opinion. All such discussions will be going on over in rec.audio.pro once the CD sets get distributed, but that should be a few weeks yet. Last I heard, Harvey still has not finalized the masters. Anyway, I'm sure it will be a worthwhile purchase for everyone reading here as well, not only for the liner notes and learning opportunities, but for some enjoyable music as well. 5 full CD's for only $20. I'm quite eager to get my sets. My submission will probably be the very first track, so that should be easy to remember. I've never had anything mastered, so I've never gotten that much-needed feedback from expert ears. Such would be greatly appreciated.

--
Keith W Blackwell

Hi Keith!

Good to see you come around the home again!

I hate cut and paste...you are supposed to get it the first time, but for this I will do cut and paste as I had inventory and tax folks and auditors screaming down my back looking for an ass crack all day.and frankly, I am enjoying some beers..so I need to do it this way..

You wrote:

just took an hour or so to read through this entire thread. Thanks for all the explanations and such. It's been a great ride.

Yes it has. I get very passionant when I spend 1600 hrs plus obtaining a monitoring station that is +/- 1dB from the low 20's to 18K and hear thin mixes from others, meanwhile I have 10,000 recordings here that are balanced and the mixer ( on other inaccurate speakers) trusts inferior listening standards. I wrote volumes before in this thread to explain it. I hope someone takes a meter and sees for themself What I say is true.
From face value.

You said in context about the 824's:

Those cross-checks are sometimes surprising. The explanations here help make a lot of sense out of this situation for me.

Ja.....

you wrote..

Now I have a concern about learning to mix using these HR824's. Are there any inexpensive monitors that would do a good job of compensating?

I feel that from my experience having a pair here for sample purposes, the 47hZ switch, the passive radiator, the room acoustics, the sweep tones and the meter can mate them to your room where it is very possable to get them flat in the room and truly make them work.
Since you have them and they are not cheap, how about working with them?

The passive radiator is an out of phase bass boost. I have seen curves for them looking flat...that is in an anechoic chamber , free of room boundarys. Traps built into your space will help considerably but the crossover notch at 3K is not good. I would look, to making them on the edge, of painful to get the "mellow" in that region to translate. Remember, what you hear if inaccurate at ALL!, is the inverse of the translation.

NEXT lines:

ow about those PSB's? I've been very impressed with them at an audiophile shop here in town, and was amazed at what such small speakers could do at a reasonable price. But which model of PSB would be suitable? Of course, I would have to get an amp, too. I guess there's just no way I can make this investment right now since I've been unemployed for over a year now and money is tight. But I'm always planning ahead, you know. (heh heh, dreaming, more likely)

Work with what you got.

PSB's are high fi, not pro, see my other posts in this. Accurate, free field and 1/2 space, room, they boost the bass, sorry. I know the designers, this is how they were designed for consumer stuff and rightfully so. We are in the pro realm. It is different.

About the CD, send me a link, it is a go.

I have read this thread, and since I am very new to the pursuit of the grail, I do not have an opinion based on knowledge or experience. The logic for the NS10's does make sense to me. My efforts are in a small, fairly dead corner of the basement; actually I live in the short end of the 'L'- not a good place I am guessing. The monitors I have are the Yam msp5's, which was all the brass I had at the time. Might I ask for any comments on these, and perhaps reference to a beginner's guide to to getting the best out of the siruation? Then I'll go away (and do it).
bub

First, get the meter and do some sweep tests.

Make sure it is the analog meter with the needle.

C and fast on settings.

Get a sine wave generator off the web as source.

See what you can do to get flat frequency response from 50 Up first.

Baby steps...but actually, lets hear a job by you in Internet audio. Upload one, you may be darn close now!

Hi there,

I just wanted to say thanks so much for this thread, it has been really eye-opening (I've been lurking here for ages!) I too use the 824's and per your advice, I decided to get a meter and check my room.

I have found a real drop (12-14 db roughly) at around 100 hz, while the other frequencies are generally within about 5 db of each other. I was just curious as to what this means exactly and how can it be remedied?

Thanks again and sorry if this answer is way too obvious!

Shawn

Drop around 100. Okay!

You are experiencing a situation with unequal distances from boundries causing the range to go "out of phase".

Measure the distance the left speaker is from the left wall, do the same for the right wall and make them equal in distance. Also measure the distance to the wall behind. How far are the rear of the speakers from the back wall?

Are you measuring where your head is during monitoring?? that is the place to do it.

Also, 5 dB swing is alot. Every 3dB is equivalent to doubling your amplifiers wattage!!!!

I am curious of the distances before you move them. The passive radiator is becoming an impedance transformer for the low end and the out of phase at 100 verifys that.

Let me know distances and we can work from there!

You can use inch/feet, or mm/m is fine

Thanks for the quick reply Bill! I think you've nailed the reason (the unequal distances in my room). I have an "L" shaped room with some odd "half-walls" on the outside.

These end up being the measurements:

My left monitor is 9.5" from the wall and my right monitor ends up being 16" from the wall, due to the half-wall on the left monitor side (can you picture this?). From the rear wall, my left monitor is 10 ft and my right monitor is about 25 ft (due to the "L" shape). Do I have some reorganizing to do?

As well, what's the best way get those other frequencies in closer tolerances?

Thanks so much!

Shawn

Btw, I am measuring in a 4 ft triangle, where my head would be.