Sounds like some fun! especially Rails /dragsters and Funny cars. . I just love the races and have always thought about recording them too. Be sure to protect your hearing.

chrapladm, post: 360739 wrote: I am wanting to record Fireworks, canon blasts, F1 racing, dragsters, monster trucks, Icebergs cracking and other more normal things such as piano, Viol Da Gamba and others.

I like to listen to recordings that have content down to around 6hz.

Fireworks, monster trucks, dragsters, racing...I can see. Where in the world are you going to go to record canon blasts and icebergs? Just curious.

Also, what playback equipment do you have that allows you to reproduce 6Hz? Is there a microphone that will capture that?

Anyway, you may want to think about buying a matched pair of whatever you will get so you can try to record in stereo.

Kapt.Krunch

Not sure which mics to get but I have seen many recording devices able to record down to 2hz or DC. Now in regards to my playback system I have been on audio visual forums forever and love watching movies and audio. Incredible hulk for instance has stomps with hulk running around 6hz. War of the Worlds has lighting strikes that are around 4hz. WOW.

My subs will play 12hz right now. I am building my new pair of subs that will play down to 4hz no problem. My friends sub is also able to play down to 3hz no problem. I know I cant hear that but it sure is fun feeling it.

I also dont know what mics are able to go down to, say, around 5 hz and not distort. I have a recording of the space shuttle taking off from 3.5miles away and the equipment was still clipping.

Canon blasts aren't usually a problem to get around. I was in the military and know quite a few people who have large....devices I could record. But that will have to wait being that I live in OZ now.

I look forward to the other recordings and am saving up the money for a trip to the Antarctic to see if I could get some iceberg recordings.

But like I said I am extremely new at this.

Kapt.Krunch, post: 360747 wrote: Fireworks, monster trucks, dragsters, racing...I can see. Where in the world are you going to go to record canon blasts and icebergs? Just curious.

Also, what playback equipment do you have that allows you to reproduce 6Hz? Is there a microphone that will capture that?

Anyway, you may want to think about buying a matched pair of whatever you will get so you can try to record in stereo.

Kapt.Krunch

pretty sure anything that could reproduce 6 hz could also kill you.

You'll have a hard time doing that kind of thing on a budget - unless you have extensive DIY capability.

A mic that would straddle the line between lab-grade and something an individual could afford -
like an Earthworks M50, measurement mic. It specs at 3Hz - 50kHz ±3dB and will run you about $1300.

Alternatives might include recording a good general purpose mic along with a specially built transducer like a DIY subkick mic on separate channels then combining them later.

If it vibrates you should be able to convert it into an analog waveform, assuming everything else in your system can record and playback below 20Hz.

(I'd try to keep DC out of my speakers if I were you)

Good luck, sounds like a fascinating project.

Thanks DVDhawk. I will have to look into your suggestions. I know alot of the stuff for transformers used the AEA R84 which is around 900 but doesn't spec like the Earthworks. I will have to buy probably an Earthworks in the next year as in 2012. And seeing that I think the SD 702 only goes down to around 10hz I think I might have to have another portable recorder. But what is capable or has a lower frequency response?

And when looking into the Mics do I need to pay more attention to their Max Acoustic Input?

I know the AEA R84 I think is around 160db and the E M50 says 142db. When recording say dragsters I guess it would be just a matter of dialing it back until I am not in the clipping but how do I not damage the mic?

I know after I have done this for awhile it should become easier but instantaneous sounds will be difficult for me to tame. Like dragsters and white burst fireworks where there is a bright light then a BOOM oh and of coarse canon blasts.

Are there any stickies on DIY subkicks?

We had a member a few months ago record the [="http://recording.org/mobile-recording/47239-car-power-inverter.html"]demolition of a house[/]="http://recording.or…"]demolition of a house[/] with a PMD661. *sorry all text, no audio of the end-result :(

Obviously anything below 20Hz is considered sub-sonic so normal (reasonably priced) gear doesn't focus much attention, waste a lot of R&D, or components, to go much lower than that. Some others may chime in with some suggestions on portables that do.

I guess I have a few questions to follow-up:
How close do you plan to be (need to be) to these super-loud noises? Like with the concussion mortar fireworks, the big boom is downrange. The canon blast would have a big boom near the canon and another potentially big boom where it hits. Will you have the luxury of picking a safe spot not too near the business end? Is pristine audio quality the goal? What's your end product? SFX Library? Whatever the market, it had better pay well enough to cover the occasional mic repair - or it could turn out to be an expensive hobby.

It will hazardous duty for any mic - especially a condenser mic, the high SPL sources and the outdoor factor will increase the chance of the mic getting damp. In which case, (although it won't have the frequency response on paper) a good old-school dynamic kick mic might provide adequate boom, cost 80% less and last 5000% longer.

No subkick stickies that I know of, but numerous mentions of one built by one of our illustrious site admins - [[url=http://="http://recording.or…"]here.[/]="http://recording.or…"]here.[/]

And some more recent discussion [[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"]here.[/]="http://recording.or…"]here.[/]

I have always had very sensitive ears. So I can usually hear things that are extremely quiet. That being said I will always be protecting myself when recording. Now when recording the canon blast I would more likely be closer than far away. Fireworks, I have had a friend who recorded sounds like I want about 1/2mile away and still had some clipping. I would probably do the same thing. Dragsters and other loud cars I will probably be close. Similar to this guy:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.dynamici…"]Post-Mortem: Drag Race Recordings | Dynamic Interference[/]="http://www.dynamici…"]Post-Mortem: Drag Race Recordings | Dynamic Interference[/]

But of coarse I wont have the 702.

And when I say near the Canon it could be around 1/4mile.

End results are sound clips that are just fun to play for me and my friends. I will eventually try and dabble in some movies so all the sound FX will help. My movies though wont be anything fancy. Probably Kung Fu flicks and clay stopmotion. My Kung Fu would be pretty silly though. I have just loved audio and would like to create some of my own compilations.

Just have to get the basics down. And the movies would probably be great sound with cheap props. Like a cardboard car with dragster sounds and plastic guns with canon sounds. LOL

Like I said I am new so I need to learn what I can do and what I will need. My mic I have is calibrated to 5hz but I think it will only take around 130dbs so I need to be careful. Even with the 160db AEA it is still very fragile. Thats why I joined the forum though to learn.

Using the AEA (or any other ribbon mic) for field recording would be very scary. Most are notoriously fragile and have to handled with kid gloves in a nice dry environment.

For what you're trying to do, I'd seriously consider starting out with a dynamic kick mic like (AKG D112, Audix D6, Shure Beta52A, Sennheiser MD421 or e902) and augment that with something a little more favorable above 10kHz - which would be just about anything.

That rig might not spec down to 5Hz, but you'll be making recordings that can played back on more than the few systems with your emphasis on sub-sonic.

A bit (or a lot) of compression, and/or an inline pad somewhere in the system will be all you need to prevent any clipping problems. A pad would attenuate the entire recording, while the compressor would let you capture more of the background/ambient sounds prior to the loud part. - but I can't think of any battery operated compressors....

I've been looking this evening and have seen some digital field recorders that spec at 10Hz - 40kHz. [incidentally, all these specs need to be taken with a grain of salt]

I only saw the SD 702 specs to 10hz. The shure goes to 20hz and the AKG is only 30hz and the Senn. So your saying that doing these recordings with this equipment most peoples systems could play it?

But if trying to emphasize on the 7hz rumble of a canon blast do I need to use a EW M50 for sure? And if the recorder is only spec'd to 10hz would the 5-10hz be lost or not recorded?

Thanks. I know that the dragsters and stuff would be fine with something around 20hz. Then as their rpms go up so usually does their frequencies. When idling they are pretty low in hz. How low I dont know but is more of a shaking than sound. yah there are 40hz-120hz mixed content but I am just saying there isw some low content in there. But either way.

It looks like the kick drum mics would work best for the most part.

I don't know if digital recorders would lop off sources out of their freq. range (high or low) or if they'd just slope off. The A-D converter might be mathematically limited to a specific range. (Boswell or one of the other resident genius-types might know the answer to that)

You're into serious audiophile range. 99.99% of home theater, home stereo speakers would just fart at 7Hz. That would be a good 3 octaves lower than a more accessible 28Hz - which would be pretty respectable in the speaker world. Again, since the majority of us don't really hear down to 20Hz most manufacturers don't devote much effort to producing those low (energy hogging) frequencies.

And you pay dearly for studio quality monitors that will be flat as far down as 30Hz without dedicated subs. (even the Genelec subs don't go much below 20Hz) It takes so much power to produce true bass it's considered a poor trade-off. BagEnd ELF speakers are the only monitors I can think of that claim to go sub-sonic to single digits.

So net result, if you make killer sub-sonic recordings it may very well sound like garbage on someone else's system. As is often discussed here regarding quality of one's studio monitor system - being able to create the world's most perfect sound is going to be of limited usefulness if you have to invite 6.8 billion people over to your place 20 at a time so they can hear it. Your goal is to create mixes or sounds that will translate fairly consistently on the best systems and on mediocre systems as well.

Back in the 70's when the movie "Earthquake" came out, theaters had to be equipped with special Earthquake cabinets to vibrate the whole theater during the quake scenes. They were just big bass reflex cabinets with a single rear-facing Cerwin-Vega 18" in them, but they could shake the rafters and I think they started tapering off below 32Hz. They eventually fell into the hands of rock bands [ we ended up with 2 pairs :) ], so I'm very familiar. You're probably familiar with ButtKickers and other tactile transducers. That's about the only way most people can experience sub-sonic rumble. Most of us can feel it, but can't really differentiate sounds below 20Hz.

Our band debating buying those Dave. I had totally forgotten about them. I don't believe its legal to produce something to go that low in Canada. Is it this way in the USA?

hawk is right, can you image the power it would take lol.
Better to just get dynamite for a one time party.

We ended up with 4 Quakes back in the 80s - 90s, fed them well for the time with 750w/. Beasts to move around 48"x48"x20".

Now BIG arena concert systems use a big box like that, with what amounts to a big mechanical plunger that strikes a soundboard, rather than trying to use a conventional speaker as the driver.

1Hz = 1 strike of the hammer/sec.

Thigpen.
http://www.eminent-tech.com/RWbrochure.htm
or enough conventional woofers to push enough air to get down low. I know I am not mass producing stuff that is for everyone. This is just for me and the few others out there. But that being said there is some very low content here which is marketed to everyone.
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.therecor…"]The Recordist[/]="http://www.therecor…"]The Recordist[/]
But I fully understand what everyone is saying in regards to above 20hz. That is also why I dont watch movies in the Cinema anymore. There is so much content that is below the Cinemas range that , for me, I will never pay for a ticket again.

Usually playing with recording I use headphones. nice big soft pair of AKG's. I am not the norm though even my nass guitar has a string on it that is a low B(B00 15.4hz) I am different and I love being that way. But that being said also I have to take money into consideration and what I can do.

If I am wanting to sell stuff ,boutique-like, I would only go down to 10hz unless others wanted it. But for the masses I would probably just keep it around 20hz. BUT if there is a sound I am recording, not interference, I would like to record it and not limit myself.

But either way I will have to learn what the portable recorders do as far as slope off or what. And I need to learn what the big audio production engineers are doing to put these 4hz and above sounds in their movies. Thats probably very high on the list for me also.

I can hear the fundamental of a low B on a 5-string bass which is 30.9 (ish). An octave below that for any sub-harmonics is out of the range of my monitors and my ears. My AKG0 headphones (K240) claim 15Hz, but they neglect to say at how much of a dB loss at 15Hz. (why we can't go solely by specs).

A B string on a guitar vibrating at 15.4 hz is going to sound like a$$. Sorry. That is why a concert Steinway is 9' and why there is a 15' Fazioli out there and why Bosendorfer makes the Imperial with extra unused strings. The guitar string is just too short to be worth anything even if you were to get a custom made double wrapped spinet piano string it would still sound bad just like a spinet piano.

I hear the trains run all night way across town and often they keep me awake so I understand about low content. I don't know that I understand the loss of it in most movies though. Maybe I've just lived too much life in areas and environments that were too full of bass content-105mm, 155mm, Dragons, M2............

I wont be getting i9nto a debate over a good sound or crappy sounding bass string strung with a B00. But there are plenty of people out there and their bass guitars sound fine with them.

But I think if I understand more about how the audio engineers are adding the sound maybe I could augment what I want past 15/20hz and down. But that being said I still will have to have equipment and mics that can handle some loud noises to begin with. Other than a 702 in the future, what is a good starter portable recording device?

When you don't quite understand here is that most recording equipment is bandwidth limited on purpose below 20 Hz. You indicated you heard some recordings that were still clipped at quite a distance. This only happens with clueless individuals that have no idea how to record what they want to record. First off, many dynamic microphones such as the Sennheiser 421 are virtually impossible to overload. In fact the Sennheiser 421 was advertised many years ago as being able to record close proximity gun blasts at sound pressure levels that can cause instant & permanent loss of hearing. Then there is that little thing we call a microphone preamp. Professional microphone preamps, particularly old-school design, incorporate built-in resistive pads of 20 to 30 DB that prevents any input overload on the preamp. So you're just talking about crappy recordings & not professional recordings. Unfortunately, condenser microphones will frequently require a " capsule pad" to prevent the capsule from overloading the microphones electronics. Obviously, some of the things you are mentioning are what we call Hollywood sound effects. You're not listening to icebergs cracking. You might actually be listening to breaking glass being crunched on a piece of sheet metal. That's Hollywood baby! I don't care what you think you're listening to based upon manufacturers specifications? Many speakers & amplifiers including my over 30-year-old JBL's & Crown DC 300 A can reproduce 1 Hz! They called it the DC 300 because it's a response is capable of amplifying small DC voltages to larger DC voltages & up. Now even if I can move my JBL's 1 Hz it still can't move enough of the volume of air to feel it. And you don't need to go that low to feel it. So let's be practical here DON'T BE RIDICULOUS. Unfortunately, many quality preamps which feature transformer inputs are limited in their low-frequency response by the transform. This doesn't necessarily happen with transformer less instrumentation laboratory style direct coupled electronics. A good example would be an oscilloscope input which frequently must be able to read and inputs from DC to 100 MHz, from micro voltages to hundreds of voltages! Stick that in your speaker & smoke it! It should be easy. Let's face it, you might want to record those low-frequency sounds but only about .0001% of anybody with any decent audio equipment, other than yourself, will be able to reproduce your recordings. So you're far from realistic & not being very practical and what you think you want to record & how. If you want to feel that explosion perhaps you should blow yourself up? It's easy with a little fertilizer & diesel fuel and you might be able to hear the frequencies you want?

Low-frequency recordings really shouldn't be equivalent to your IQ
Mx. Remy Ann David

You don't have to agree. :-)
I tune A0, A#0, B0 notes most days of the years on pianos. I've got a little perspective on it. Plank spankers feel free to do what you want. It won't hurt my feelings.

As to portable devices, Zoom H4n gets a lot of love around here. Whatever you decide on will need to have XLR mic inputs or line inputs for external preamp as none of them will have good enough in built microphones for sub frequencies.

Wow there is always a person on every forum that has to name call to make themselves feel better about themselves. Didn't think there would be any difference here.

Is that all you got RemyRad. No helpful info at all. Then keep your posts to yourself. Anytime there is change or someone wants to do something different there are always the others that will always say no.

SO while there are quite a few others out there with subs capable of below 20hz I guess you just dont know any of them. Thats fine no big deal. BUT I should blow myself up.........WOW what are you 12. Have you ever heard ice bergs cracking? No

I have so keep it to yourself and if you have some info that helps this thread then add if not......have a good day.

Maybe dvdhawk can share some info on a budget portable recorder? Been helpful so far thanks.

I'm sorry you think that I was calling you names. I wasn't calling you names. I was giving you sound information about sound. Sure, the bigger you makem', the bigger the thud. So what you really want is not a large normal sub Speaker but a motor driven sub speaker. There really was a motor driven low-frequency driver some years ago for just that purpose. That's because it's more difficult to move that huge stiff... cardboard cone with a magnet than it is with a physical motor. I think the only audio device that can reproduce DC or direct current is a jet engine. Stuff goes in one end and comes out the other end in a sustained continuous flow in one direction without the jet engine ever burping. There is no forward rearward recoil of jet engines so they are really DC speakers. And they produce a nice 150 DB sound pressure level at the ass end of a DC signal. We all love putting our ears up to the ass end of jet engines don't we? That's not rock 'n roll. That's called a jet engine. And it sounds like a jet engine and not a duck, since it doesn't sound like rock 'n roll. But rock 'n roll can be equated to a jet engine in many different aspects.

Many sound testing microphones such as the B. & K., Larson Davis, Earthworks are rather small back elecret condenser microphones capable of measuring the frequency response to nearly DC. And I'm not talking about the District of Columbia where I live. And, there is this other little factor we call "wavelength". When the frequencies go down, the size of the room has to go up and be large enough to support the lowest frequency you want to reproduce. This is why all of those idiots driving around with their big boom boom car stereos, which are powered by 1000 W amplifiers and multiple 15 inch subs can't hear their freaking bass because they're inside a tiny car. Meanwhile, people one quarter of a mile away can hear them coming because the outdoor environment supports unbelievably low wavelengths. In their cars all they can do is feel it when they shake the car hard enough. But that's not hearing, that's feeling. And feeling isn't exactly hearing. It's just another subjective perception. So when you come here asking questions that make no freaking sense to any professional how do you expect professional people to answer questions about whether Santa Claus is real or not? Go to the library and find some books on sound & acoustics because you need it. Or maybe you need some sales guy hyping up unrealistic specifications by some manufacturer not in their right frame of mind to convince you that a microphone and recorder that goes down to 10 Hz is better than a microphone or recorder that only goes down to 12 Hz. Be real kiddo because you're not being real. You have no idea how equipment is designed and why low frequencies need to be blocked below 20 Hz. Why am I answering your question this way? Because you still think you can turn lead into gold. You might be an alchemist but I'm an anarchist. That's because alchemy really doesn't exist except in people's minds. And you don't even see the comedy in the "blow yourself up" category when you want to move the kinds of volume of air you are looking to.

You come here to get information from experienced knowledgeable people that know way more than you'll ever know. But if you're an audio expert at this why are you asking about this? Why aren't you designing it? Creating it? Refining it? Probably because you've never picked up a book about this subject? And really, hearing ice or glaciers crack is not a sound that most people need to reproduce down to the foundation of the planet. And if you think my answer was screwed up you obviously haven't been to many other professional audio sites. You get to learn something here in whatever convoluted manner I can make you understand about your lack of beginner understandings and observations. This all because you really aren't asking a professional question. My answer is an attempt to make you understand how unrealistic and/or ridiculously uninformed your question is... as in no basis for need. All the while other folks are trying to give you a kind and childlike educated answer that you are not comprehending. You might even think that girls get pregnant just by being kissed by a boy. That was a popular, knowledgeable and informed assumption many years ago. And people believed that " specification". Specifications on equipment really means nothing. If you know how to record something you'll get the kind of sound you want to reproduce for others to enjoy, without huge subs. Oh but you like feeling that pounding on your chest bass. My perception is, is if you are feeling that "pound on your chest bass", you are feeling somebody performing CPR upon you because you have had a heart attack. That's not necessarily a good sensation. Have you ever heard a heart attack? Plenty of people have and they have moved on because of it. So stop correcting people that know more than you do when they are trying to make you see the errors of your knowledge base, because you ain't going to get the answer you're looking for. That's because it doesn't really exist. You only think it exists because you have read specifications. It only exists in your mind and in phony advertising rhetoric. This means there is a fool born every second much less every minute. Manufacturers count on that. I don't want you to be in THAT CATEGORY. But then you probably never had a teacher that chewed your ass off for being stupid? When you are looking for mentoring you have to accept answers that you are not expecting or prepared for. And that is what you are asking for here. Free education from people willing to waste their time with you. Like myself. You might think I'm a tough smartass because of my manner in answering. In that respect you would be correct. And I don't need a degree in Electrical Engineering to know all of this because I've been mentored by one of the guys responsible for inventing television, for more than 10 years. While I've gone also, to the library for many years, reading everything about audio, sound, recording, equipment design, etc.. That's not including the over 30 years of AES conventions I've also attended. I've built & designed large frame recording consoles & broadcast consoles. I'm part of the world authority of magnetic analog audio recording from the analog era. It's not often when you can call up the world authority of reference calibration alignment tapes for the world and tell him he was wrong in his manufacturing technique of the world's calibration reference standard. Which I did. I got my ass chewed off by J. McKnight owner of MRL (magnetic reference laboratories) who then promptly hung up on me. That's because he thought I was a clueless idiot until he doubled checked my observations. He called me the following day and apologized as he didn't think the small change he made in his reference fast sweep tapes, had such a detrimental effect of his world class calibration reference tapes. So smoke that. You learn from this. But it appears you don't want to learn anything but want to inform us of your misguided information and then want some kind of consoled acceptance of an uninformed desire to reproduce what really cannot be reproduced for any practical purposes. So learn from this and maybe try and go and record some nice sounding music. Don't worry about stuff that has no valid basis for existence. That's the message here about audio, about sound. If you like advertising nonsense why not go into the advertising business? The first thing you learn is that most advertising is all lies. But that's why it's called advertising. You know that when hookers advertise they're not trying to look like real women. They are advertising hype trying to fulfill unrealistic characteristics of specifications that can't exist for real women. You see, you have to be a prostitute to be an audio person. We are all prostitutes here. Some of us prostitutes proselytize and pontificate in a bombastic way. Because we really know what's going on and you don't. Kind of like a hellfire & brimstone preacher. I am trying to deliver an answer on a different level since you are not getting that with the other professionals, who are kindly trying to tell you.

So now do you understand this better? I hope so? "Oh but some blah blah subs can reproduce blah blah. And this blab blab microphone only goes down to 12 Hz when this other blah blah microphone can go down to 10 Hz..." Wow that's really informed! Great, so go buy the 10 Hz blah blah microphone and see if you can have it modified to reproduce direct current? That would be really smart. Yup, you nailed it. You don't want microphones that only goes down to 12 Hz. None of us do.

Keep going down and you'll get it right some day
Mx. Remy Ann David

Do you want a cookie........maybe you need a hug........obviously someone didn't get enough as a child.

Its ok either way the people in the know gave me the answers I needed. Because obviously you are only in the know of mass market which I dont want to be part of. I am sure you think Bose are the greatest sounding speakers also.

I am sure you have a wealth of knowledge but ....yes your tactics suck. But as I can see you will always be correct and you know all. LOL

This topic just ended because it is now going sideways.

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