Stay away from those low end tube compressors and modeling pres and stuff like that, they are not worth the money. I would look into JoeMeek stuff, they have really great gear and its easy on the budget if you can keep away from their tube stuff. I used their VC3Q as a tube pre for quite awhile, used it more as a pre then a compressor actualy, but it worked great for both. They should have something in the $300 range. Their stuff is well built and just sounds great, especialy their comrpessors.
http://www.joemeek.com

adam

Check out the Studio Projects VTB-1, it has been getting good reviews.You can find a review at Prosoundweb.com. Go to recpit, then click on Harvey Gerst.
Good luck.

I second the Joe Meek for those on the budget. I obtained a new VC1Qcs in a trade for some work thinking I would just use the compressor but I ended up really liking the whole box. The mic pre is clean and quiet, the comp has that great old school flavor and eq is way more useable that you'd expect on a box like this. The exciter is not up to the BBE or Aphex, but it can be useful when really spanking the compressor hard to give back some bite. I see these used in the $400 range. I would expect the smaller, cheaper Meek units to be about as good with less features.

Youngdahl,

Do you want clean or character? IMO with the DAW age amongst us, clean is my preference in pres. You can always add a simulated tube later in the mix (although the purists here would disagree), but you can't take it out of your pre if it doesn't work for you.

So in the clean camp, two of the best (not personal experience here, but from reading reviews and participating in discussions here) contenders are the Grace 101 and the RNP.

mitzelplik

Hi all,

Thanks for all the replies!

Mitzelplick asked about clean/character? I guess for now the best answer I can have would be "different than my Mackie 1604 VLZ (not Pro) pres". So I guess that would mean "character"? I gather that the Mackies are more known for "clean". I'm assuming this won't be the last pre I buy, but I guess that for the long run what I buy now might help leverage me to buy more toward the "top of the line" type stuff in the future.

The Mackies have the reputation of having good preamps, and so far my experience has been also good. I can make pretty nice recordings through the Mackie mixer. But my opinion is also based on my inexperience. I used to think I was doing pretty good with an SM58 through a Peavey mixer and onto a Teac 3340s. So, mic pres seem to be a place in my rig where there might be a chance for some significant improvement, but perhaps a $300 pre won't make all that much difference?

I'm guessing I've got "clean" covered with the Mackie? Or can I do much cleaner with a unit that is a single pre (or maybe a pair) in that $300 range. If not, then maybe "character" is the answer, assuming I can get something that at least hangs with my other equipment (if not better) in that range. Perhaps a used Joe Meek could be a good option for me in the "character" category, as suggested above.

On the other hand, would I have a more significant improvement by spending the $300 on another microphone to add to my 2 Octava MK-319s and 1 Marshall MXL 2003 (plus an SM58 and 2 SM57s)? Those are pretty much $150 microphones, perhaps one from the $300 range running through the Mackie pres would be a more effective enhancement to my setup? If so, what would be a good choice there?

Thanks again,
--
Greg

Originally posted by youngdahl:
perhaps a $300 pre won't make all that much difference?

$300 don't get you much. The Meek doesn't have real character in the pre, the character comes if you get a Meek with the compressor and eq. $300 won't get you much in a better mic than what you already have. You might just as well save up to the $1000 level and get something real good with or without character. Lots of people go cheap because they can and because they can have more items quicker. Don't be like those other people...

OK, so let me see if I can sum up a bit, let me know if I'm oversimplifying...

First - a $300 mic won't be all that much better than my current $150 mics, and I probably won't get significantly better until the $1000 ballpark?

Second - preamps in the $300 range aren't really much better than what comes in the Mackie 1604 VLZ (despite the fact that you only get 1 or 2 channels in the preamp, and the Mackie has 16 plus all the other mixer stuff). Actually that sounds like a significant market opportunity for someone!

LVassen mentions the VTB-1, but I gather others (or at least AudioGaff) might not agree that improves over the Mackie. Perhaps it falls into the category of the "starved plate" designs similar to the ART line. There seem to be a couple of PreSonus items that I had been considering. The BlueTube is a 2 channel unit with preamps only listing at $200. They also have the DigiTube which is a single channel preamp with three bands of semi-parametric EQ (no width) at $299 (saw it at Sam Ash for $249). I read some review that said that despite being a "starved plate" design, these (or I guess particularly the BlueTube was being reviewed) sounded better than other units using that design. I wasn't sure exactly how "un-biased" the reviewer might have been though.

So, all of these are really not much better than my Mackie? Perhaps they are good for someone who has no mixer (or a cheap one) or is just running into a sound card or something?

Unless I am able to book some work into my studio, the path to $1000 available is a ways off. I'm basically a hobbiest and I can put some money away each month towards upgrading my hobby, but any money I can earn with it can go back 100% into equipment. So, what about opening up to say $500? I guess in this context I'm thinking of that FMR Audio RNP. Two channels of preamp only (perhaps soon after getting an RNC to go with it?). Could that provide an improvement over the Mackie pres? The Joe Meek stuff begins to fall into this category as well, at least maybe used pieces. Is there anything else I ought to consider here?

As a bit of a side issue, I read somewhere that if one is recording at 24-bits that perhaps one can dispense with compression, at least while tracking (if one wants to compress for effect, then do it after the track has been recorded without compression). Is that really a viable approach? If so then perhaps compression as a feature in a preamp (or added on as with an RNC added to an RNP) isn't so important. Of course, if the sound of the compressor itself (as AudioGaff suggested that the character of the Joe Meek stuff was in the compressor and EQ rather than the pre itself), and your DAW plugins (assuming thats how you'd compress and EQ once the track was recorded) didn't give you the character you want, then maybe thats not really a valid approach. Comments?

Thanks for the discussion!
--
Greg Youngdahl
cimarroncellar@sbcglobal.net

I would recommend the m-audio dmp3. I think you can pick them up for about $150. I have no Mackie to compare it to, but I've heard others say it's a noticable improvement. This would leave you some cash to buy another mic too. Maybe a SP B3?

You're experiencing the very situation that all of us face when choosing to go down the recording gear dillema road...."Can i get a better sound with the addition of semi-pro gear to my mostly semi-pro set-up?"...Its an affliction that the marketeers of the manufacturing concerns of recording equipment have recognized for some time now.....

My suggestion is to experiment liberally with the mics and gear you already have.Learn new mic placements, try tweeking tones at the sources..ie, guitar amps,bass amps,drum tunings..
With what you already have, you should be able to make very very decent recordings.Clean and clear at least.I would avoid using the eq on your Mackie for recording if you can...simply use it as a monitoring matrix from your DAW...if you absolutely must spend your $300, then a mic is your best bet...I would look at getting a very nice dynamic to add to your collection...a Beyer,Sennheiser or the like...An MD421 will last you forever and is so very very good on so many things...A used can be found for your budget ..another is the Beyer M160 ribbon mic...Very high in quality sound and once again good on so many things...
Spend the time trying new things and using your gear and your signal chains to work for you.Technique makes up for a lack of gear anytime and you have enough stuff to learn techniques that will serve you for years to come.

The VTB-1 can be run totally solid state without
any "tube blend".

You can get one, and also check out a classic dynamic (or ribbon), like Dave said, staying under $500 in the process.

Chris

Hi!

Only reasons to compress while tracking would be practical ones, like preventing clipping of the tape/computer. The main reason why you should avoid it is because all processing to tape is destructive - non regrettable.

Very experienced engineers sometimes compress to tape since they know the sound they want and would fit into the mix. If you got that really sweet compressor whose sound/character you cannot live without - apply on tracking, but if your software plugs sound just as good I suggest you save the compression for the mixing.

Regarding your investment, I would put some greens in a single channel preamp (unless you do a lot of sensitive stereo miking where you would need two identical good preamps) without bells & whistles to get maximum quality from your bucks.
Since all your one-channel overdubs will pass through it you´ll want a good one.

Good luck!

You are at a level where almost any significant purchase will upgrade your product, but it may be hard to find much that is significant at $300.

One possibility might be a small diaphragm condenser or two - something you seem to be lacking.

With all the acoustic recording you are doing, you should also consider evaluating your room acoustics as a possible area to upgrade.

Not as sexy as gear, of course!

Greg,

I am also looking to upgrade my recording path. From the suggestions I have gathered, I feel the need to start with the room. I'm gonna build a mic booth since I mostly record vocals.

Next: Mic
Next: Mic Pre and Quality cables:
Next: A/D Converter, and maybe a clock generator
Next: Soundcard

Character Pre's generate harmonics and distortion. In the good ones, these added elements sound fantastic. In the not so good ones, they may get annoying after twenty or so songs.

Clean Pre's capture the sound as-is, adding and subtracting very little. These expose the quality of your room and mic. The mackie tends toward this camp.

You're not going to find any high quality eight channel pre at an affordable price. Just think about it, if one quality pre will cost you $500, how much are eight? (minus seven boxes, power supplies, etc. of course)

And as suggested, I'd recommend you stay away fron external compressors, unless you're experienced and know what you want. 24-bit recording leaves plenty of headroom to escape from the quantization effect while capturing appropriate levels.

The RNP is a good choice, I have an RNC and it is the epitome of affordable quality. But be forewarned, I have messed up a lot of otherwise good takes by not knowing what I was doing with it.

I've also heard good things about the Studio projects mic lineup. Or, if you have a bit of DIY in you, you can try a mojave mic kit(mojaveaudio.com)

Davedog:
"Technique makes up for a lack of gear anytime and you have enough stuff to learn techniques that will serve you for years to come."

I cannot agree enough with this. My quality has jumped several fold in the two years since I was a newbie, using the same equipment!

You know, your name is very familiar to me. Maybe from the jv80 or ASR-X mailing groups?

I agree, you need a pre. I am also fond of Joemeek and DMP-3, they complement each other well. One sleeper is DBX386, now down to $300 or less. Its A-D conversion is rather good. The tewb front end, (which is not a starved plate design) is fairly useless for most critical recording.
I think the DMP-3 is a no-brainer, and it is better than the pres in a non-pro Mackie. That gives you another $150 to spend on- a pair of Oktava MC012's. Then you get a useable 2 channel pre and a pair of small diaphragms. Even with an Avalon in the rack, I find uses for the DMP-3, for a talkback amp, and a miniature remote setup. The little Oktavas also spend some time up in some big-time studios.
What's important at your level is to get some different types of tools, so you can begin learning how to use them, but to also buy stuff that will still be useful, or at least, resellable, when you invest more money in top flight gear.-Richie

How about a Rane MS-1b? It is much less than $300, has Burr-Brown circuitry, and is a damn site improved over the Mackie pre's.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.rane.com…"]Link to Rane MS-1b preamp[/]="http://www.rane.com…"]Link to Rane MS-1b preamp[/]

As I understand it the mixer you are using has pretty decent preamps in its pricerange. You already got a clean sound, maby not that really crisp sound you want but a ok clean/neutral sound, am I right?
In your case I would suggest that you take a look at your other setup. Mabye you need better cables or a better mic. If I were you I would put my money on a used mic, 300$ might not buy you a great preamp but it will most certanly buy you a great used mic.

I've read nothing but good things about the M-Audio DMP3 (US$200 new).

[url=http://www.m-audio…]

Do yourself a favor and skip the "pro-sumer" level mic pres. Plenty of descent demo's have been made with the Wackie mixers. You just need to use what you have to it's fullest.

And there are a few Pro quality Mic pres out there that don't cost an arm and a leg. I have a Sytek (4 channel) and a Sebatron (2 channel). You wont get them for $300, but they are well worth the wait. The Syteks are really clean and transparent while the Sebatron can go from somewhat transparent to very colored. The Sytek goes for $800 and the Seb goes for araound $900-950. If you don't need a lot of channels, I'd suggest the Sebatron. You can also pick up more expensive (not necessarily better) pre's used. I got a Langevin Dual w/EQ on eBay for $800.

Originally posted by tripnek:
Do yourself a favor and skip the "pro-sumer" level mic pres. Plenty of descent demo's have been made with the Wackie mixers. You just need to use what you have to it's fullest.

tripnek,
I have struggled for years now to come up with an answer to the original qiestion. By Jove! I think you've got it! Very eloquent. Qualifies as "best answer on the BB". Kurt

Hi guys...

First of all I want to thank everyone for all the great advice and discussion! I'm still here and reading it, I just haven't had a good response for a while (beyond the thanks). I find it all quite helpful in shaping my thinking. Please don't stop discussion if there is more to be said!

I think the comment about avoiding "pro-sumer" preamps tends to be about what I expected with the original question as to whether any of these were significantly better than what I have in my Mackie. Perhaps they are pretty much targeted at people who are otherwise plugging a microphone directly into their sound card or something like that.

I'd not heard of Sytek or Sebatron previously, so I'll definitely look into those. I had been a bit swayed toward the RNP. Does this tend to fall into the same pro-sumer category, or is it perhaps more the beginning of whatever the higher category would be called?

And, finally (for now), could the same thing be said about microphones, like that most under some threshold would be more a "pro-sumer" quality of mic, and maybe once you've got two or three of them you'd be better off jumping up into the higher category? If so, does anyone have a guideline of where (what brands/models, price range) to draw that line?

I'm sure Neumanns would be something to aspire to, but short of that, what else is significantly superior to the mics (Octava MK-319 / Marshall MXL 2003) I have now (in a similar perspective to preamps better than my Mackie's)? In other words would dropping $300 on some Audio Technica or maybe Shure microphone (or whatever) buy me any significant improvement, or am I looking at pro-sumer stuff there as well?

Thanks,
--
Greg Youngdahl
cimarroncellar@sbcglobal.net

I am close to your position.

FWIW my $150 ebay meek vc3 was worth every penny to me. I bought it figuring if I did not like it, I could always dump it on ebay as quick as I bought it.

Now I am saving for a Soundelux mic ($1000) and this is where I hope to stop my buying for a while.

Hi guys,

Just a quick question here... In looking around I've come upon the Grace Designs Model 101, and I've seen prices for it in the $560 range. It is a single channel pre that seems to be in the transparent category. I seem to have the name recognition impression of Grace as being a pro-level company. Does this unit fall into the pro-sumer category or is this unit something that would be a good step up from the Mackie preamp level? Reviews I've seen seem to indicate that it would eat the Mackie's lunch, but I guess I'm not too good (yet) at discerning whether I'm reading marketing hype, some inexperienced owner's rave review, or an informed unbiased analysis at times.

Thanks,
--
Greg Youngdahl
cimarroncellar@sbcglobal.net

I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people here giving a strong thumb's up to some of the cost-friendly preamps being made in Australia these days. And I still see SYTEK's being highly recommended.

A while back, I was hearing a lot about another company that was also making similar products at a good price point. I think the name was DavisSound (spelling might be wrong). But I haven't heard much recently about them.

Are they still in business, and has anyone actually used any of their preamps? If so, how would you compare them to some of the other preamps generally being recommended on these boards?

So I guess the Focusrite PENTA sucks then? I haven't read any thing about it

pre amp..mmmm what I do Is buy a pre amp like art or a joe meek or bbe and If I want a particular sound I will take it apart and modify it to sound the way I want it to sound ...right now the best sounding pre amp I have is a technics class a model home amplifier I redesigned to get that oooh so close nieve feel.....I also built a pre-amp based on the neve twin dual servo transformer unit....made by jensen ...ordered it through henry...as he's the only one that its licensed for the dual servo that is...the compressor is more complicated so what I will do is change any low quality parts I can find and get all my resistors changed to +-1% and jensen transformers and good quality pots and caps......cleans up your sound....plus try to isolate any a/c with grounding and full balancing....I make my own chords and connectors so some of my pre's and equipment do not have in or out plugs jus straight wire ...balanced and grounded....so you can make a really good pre amp in the range of the neve....you heard me ....huh huh huh huh

Sorry I am late on this discussion.

I am an advocate of tube pre-amps. But before we talk about this, I just want to say .. These guys have all cautioned you on the dangers of compression. So lets get you started on learning how to use them.

1. Bring your signal up into the red and then back it out with you compressor. This will give you a gental ceiling and garantee you full resolution.

For bas it is hard to understand how they can make a compressor for $200. but they do.

Now so as not to mislead you. These cheaper pre's are not real tube pre-amps.
Tubes are voltage amplifiers and really do amplifi new a superior way. The voltage is the push neccessary to drive the next stage.

The blue tube is not a true tube amplifier, but they do offer the tube into the circuit to offer the even order harmonic.

The evn order harmonic is the most musical thing that you can feature as far as personality and the end of your mix.
Step. 1 Run your bas guitar into the left side of the BLUE TUBE.
Step 2. Run in out put of the blue tube into the left side of the BLUE MAX compressor.
Step 3. Use the out put "GAIN" control of the Tube
and the input of the MAX to get "TONE"
run the out put of the MAX direct to your recorder
and use the out-put gain of the MAx to control the levels to be recorded.
These are stereo units and you should use the same procedure on the drums.
Now here is the good news. You can have both units for $300. from artistrecording.com

This will be the single most important staep in changing your sound and learning about compression and tube harmonics.
Screw al these thousandes of dollars in Equipment.
you can add all of these guys together and they still have not spend as much as I have in the last 10 years. And this is the most used combination in my studio in the last 30 years.

Originally posted by youngdahl:
Hi guys,

Just a quick question here... In looking around I've come upon the Grace Designs Model 101, and I've seen prices for it in the $560 range. It is a single channel pre that seems to be in the transparent category. I seem to have the name recognition impression of Grace as being a pro-level company. Does this unit fall into the pro-sumer category or is this unit something that would be a good step up from the Mackie preamp level? cimarroncellar@sbcglobal.net

I am very happy with my grace 101- I got the high gain model to use with my RCA 77D ribbon mic and it sounds silky! I am going to buy another one next year to have the pair, after that :D :D , a sebatron-

I am a writer producer of Urban R&B music.

I am writing for some major label opps,

I have a good sound but feel could be better and a preamp is what I need.

I have a Korg Triton, EMU Mophatt, and use drum samples, sometimes loops sometimes programmed.

MAC G4 with Creamware 24 bit souncard

I use waves plugs and logic Audio

I only have a little 4 channel Behringer desk.

I have taken a big interest in Pre-Amps, because I know there is something missing in my sound.

I was looking at Blue tubes and DMP3, and possibly Joe Meek stuff.

Apart from the obvious Vocals and guitars, I really want to try putting the korg and emu through it and sampled drums etc, so I need a 2 channel, both the Blue Tube and Dmp3 have this, whereas the low end Joe meek is not but pretty expensive for 2 channel.

Its the same question will these low end budget
preamps make a difference.

thanks

Hi tripnek - thanks for your info on the Sebatron. This is a unit I would like to get but was dissapointed with, what seemed to me, lack of focus in the recent comparison examples.
Was this a true representation and can you shed more light on the qualities of this unit against the Neve/Amek 9098 or similar?

Thank you

Denis

My apologies to Sebatron.

Today, after making my previous post, I decided to go back to the listening test.
This time I'm hearing focussed, very nice sounds from the Sebatron. A little thinner than the Neve, more finer detail perhaps?

I'm sold - that's what I'll be getting.

Thanks to all

Denis

Originally posted by youngdahl:

Second - preamps in the $300 range aren't really much better than what comes in the Mackie 1604 VLZ (despite the fact that you only get 1 or 2 channels in the preamp, and the Mackie has 16 plus all the other mixer stuff). Actually that sounds like a significant market opportunity for someone!
....

Greetings greg

The way to look at it is this....

If mackie released their mic pres as standalone units, they'd have to add a box, connectors, power supply, etc,etc

This would bump the cost right up.

The actual circuitry of a mic pre doesn't really cost that much. It's all the containment that costs a lot of the money.

So I would agree with those who say you probably won't get much better for $300.

Paul

i have a Valley audio 401 that i'll let go under $250.. :D
its a damn nice pre.. i need money to get my A-designs MP1

Originally posted by outofblu:
I only have a little 4 channel Behringer desk.

I have taken a big interest in Pre-Amps, because I know there is something missing in my sound.

I was looking at Blue tubes and DMP3, and possibly Joe Meek stuff.

Apart from the obvious Vocals and guitars, I really want to try putting the korg and emu through it and sampled drums etc, so I need a 2 channel, both the Blue Tube and Dmp3 have this, whereas the low end Joe meek is not but pretty expensive for 2 channel.

Its the same question will these low end budget
preamps make a difference.

thanks

Not until you upgrade that desk, my friend.

You could stick a Neve in front of that Behringer desk and I can GUARANTEE you that it won't sound any better.

I think getting a nice $300 mic preamp will not only improve your sound, but will ensure the integrity of your recording should you desire to re-mix you songs in the future. If I were you, I'd totally bypass the Mackie and Behringer mixers and go straight out of your new $300 mic pres into your recorder.

I disagree with many people who think that the difference between a mackie mic pre, and say a Presonus MP20 mic pre are not of great enough difference. There is to my ear a significant improvement in sound quality. I've done a lot of recordings on Mackie's, Neve's, API's etc...and the difference between putting your source material through a Mackie Mic Pre, and the Presonus MP20 is like night and day. In my opinion, you can always get away with running a few tracks in a mix through Mackie's, but if you do the whole thing through Mackie's, the sound quality of the whole recording suffers.

That said, I don't think there are many mic pres in the $300 range that make as big a difference as the MP20 will. It's a super clean sounding Mic Pre, that just works well on most sources. Plus it's got a cool "IDSS" circuit which allows you to mess with the harmonic content a bit, and is supposed to emulate tubes, which it really doesn't do, but it does do something cool.

Even if you've just got a 57, mic pres make a difference, and probably a bigger difference than most other things in your chain.

You could stick a Neve in front of that Behringer desk and I can GUARANTEE you that it won't sound any better.

You must have one very poor guarantee to go with your words as I am quite sure it would indeed sound better. Contrary to how most bash the Mackie and Behringer mic pres in the mixers, they are not as bad or as weak and crappy as the summing bus and eq that is what really mucks up the sound, and the more channels you try to mix together the worse off it will it be. The mic pre's in those are useable, and if you know how to use them within their limits and how to work around their sore spots, they are capable of very good results.

And there is no night and day difference between the Mackie mic pre and the

(Dead Link Removed)

And there is no night and day difference between the Mackie mic pre and the Well, ok, maybe it's not night and day, but in my opinion it's a big difference, and in my opinion, there is NOTHING more important than getting your recorded signal to be of the highest quality possible. I would put the difference in the 12 noon to say 6PM in the afternoon difference. My BIG BIG point is that if you do entire recordings, where you've recorded a lot of tracks with the Presonus MP20 VS a Mackie, the quality becomes more and more an issue with every track you record.

If people haven't heard the MP20, or used one, you should check them out. They sound great. The older version anyway, had high quality Jensen transformers, and high quality burr brown op amps, and sound great. You can pick them up on eBay for under $300.00.

I don't think there are many mic preamps under $700.00 that would make as a big a difference, but I love my MP20, and have even grabbed it over $1000+ preamps for certain tasks. It's a great great great all around preamp...and you can't argue with the price.

Well, ok, maybe it's not night and day, but in my opinion it's a big difference, and in my opinion, there is NOTHING more important than getting your recorded signal to be of the highest quality possible.

I completely agree which is why you should skip the lower crap level as well as the mediocore mid level and step straight up to get something that sounds real great and that is always going to give you good performance and never be something you regret owning.

And to put your opinion into proper perspective Jay, you might want to list all the specific preamps you have.

Try Group DIY :D
Go to the Tech Talk forum and check if that's something you're up to doing. Joel

Just my 2 c, but I recently got an M-Audio Tampa pre/comp. I liked it so well I just ordered another from digitalproaudio.com Runs right around 350.00. Normally 500.00 to 600.00. Nice sound for vocals, bass and am going to run my kick and snare thru them when the other shows up. For the money, they're hard to beat. For a review, try this.. http://www.mixcritique.com/gear1.htm (Sorry if I'm not doing the link right.) BTW, the guy at mixcritique is a great guy with an excellent set of ears and nice equipment. Like I said, just my 2 c...kel