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Antelope Audio 10M, fact or fiction

Without Prejudice:
I want to be very clear about this post. I appreciate good gear that help the mutual advancement towards better recording. I will try to be careful with my words.

Fact or fiction? Hype or BS?

Demystifying Super Clocks. Who needs an external clock?

I used the 10m for over a year. I am a guy looking for any improvements at this point so when someone says, hey, this thing makes "Huge" (not subtle") improvements to your sound... I am all over it!
I understand that once you are up to a certain level of sound, the last 5% towards pristine sound is baby steps that come at a price$.

I put this super clock to the test using it with the Orion 32 (including RME, Lavry and Prism converters).
After a year in my rack, I must be honest here and say, I never heard a bit of difference with or without the 10M.
I even doubted my ears so I had young ears (better than 18k hearing) spend time on this test and not one person heard value with the 10M. We did numerous advanced null tests, all which proved worthless. Iff the intent of this clock was to "improve" sound quality of your existing converters, it sure didn't do that for me.

What could be wrong I ask so I called the rep and began searching forums for answers on this product.

My finding and gut feeling about this clock look like snake oil and I will tell you why.

When I called the rep in this video he exclaimed I needed better speakers or better treatment. He cared nothing about what I hear, or had any interest in the system I use, which btw ranks as a world class hybrid tracking and summing system.

I'm disturbed how this product is being marketed and shilled. It has me questioning the integrity of company marketing why top level engineers are promoting it to the mass as a sound improvement tool just by connecting it to your converters.

There are obviously well respected people claiming huge improvements so much so, that they are suggesting people doing electronic music get on the chain with this.
In fact... this was how the rep sold it to me too. He sent me a mastered track that was a before/after of electronic music :cautious:. The difference between both versions was HUGE! This was electronic music, ITB music so I am thinking. WOW! this thing is amazing. I want one.

But... the videos, forum and direct marketing say a much different story.

As we see in the above video, here are world class guys claiming huge improvements in their sound using the 10M, yet I am using it, running a very sophisticated mixing and mastering system and hear no change. Why them, not me? How come the rep sent me a before after example and said...

( shhh, don't tell anyone about this track but you have to hear this... this is what tracks sound like with the 10m) ?

Lets get a few scenarios out of the way.

  • Could the reason I don't hear any change be because I use Sequoia and do not have added ADDA products messing, or reducing stability of my internal clock?
  • Could it be because I do not round trip process back to the tracking DAW?
  • Could it be that my system is simply telling the truth and exposing something?

Internal vs. external clocking

There are numerous top level testimonials that say internal clocking is choice.

Something worth mention. I notice the majority users claI'm this clock is improving their sound are either on Pro Tools or Logic.
I have read less trusting comments from people claiming huge improvements on PC systems.

Being said, I really feel there is a placebo effect and/or support of purchase going on here more than anything though, and lets not forget that the rep also sent me an audio example that he did, claiming it was the difference between the 10M in and out.

To even put more questions out, I have asked for proof it in an public A/B and no one have stepped up. We just read the hype without hearing the comparisons online.

This product is only good for those having seriously bad clocking to begin with. Its certainly not for the guy with one converter in a simple system. Especially if all your mixing is ITB.
My feelings are, if a hybrid system is clocked properly to begin with, your clock should be just fine. This is suited for studio running all sorts of digital products in a rats nest going round and round.

Thoughts?

  • antelope_audio_10m.png

Comments

DonnyThompson Fri, 06/19/2015 - 02:22

audiokid, post: 429996, member: 1 wrote: Could the reason I don't hear any change be because I use Sequoia and do not have added ADDA products messing, or reducing stability of my internal clock?
Could it be because I do not round trip process back to the tracking DAW?

Of course I can't say... but this paragraph did jump out at me. If these guys that claim to hear such an improvement are round-tripping in a hybrid scenario, perhaps they were getting a sound that was below quality to begin with, to what you are getting now without a clock, (because you don't need one for your method), so when they added a better clock to their own workflow, it tightened up their sound because what they had been doing was using a sub standard clocking device before that. They can't see that if they would just use two DAW's without a clock, they wouldn't have to bother with one at all, because it's an unnecessary step - except then, they'd have to get rid of all external processing devices they are also using, and they're probably not gonna do that.

That's just a theory of course. You would know better than I.

audiokid Tue, 06/23/2015 - 16:08

http://www.antelopeaudio.com/blog/mixermans-pairing-of-antelope-audio-orion32-and-isochrone-10m-clock-enhances-clarity-and-deepens-soundstage-while-reducing-mix-times/

What else does your current set up consist of?
Mixerman: In addition to having everything clocked with the Orion32/10M and I am running Logic X on a Mac Mini. Logic X goes out to the Orion32 via USB, which is awesome because now I don’t need to use a PCIe chassis

@Mixerman
But you now need to use a master clock that costs $ 6000? lol. How does it sound without it? I'd love to hear the A/B of that. Which is what I asked on GS, the post that was removed. :sneaky:
I knew MM (or anyone in these 10Mvideos for that matter) would take the risk to be schooled on GS by me. Unable to answer my questions plus take a challenge was revealing the disservice you and GS is to the pro audio world. In fact, I continued for a year after that post reveling a bunch of things and everyone one of my post was removed there. The only posts seem to stay are the ones that support shills. Even my discussion about RADAR and how ridiculous that DAW is today, was removed.

In case I am coming across as an attack, I am sorry but this is just too unbelievable for the experienced. The testimonial by you was leading the blind or uniformed, insinuating we are missing out on the best thing in digital clocking. The viewers were reading ""the change was not subtle" "huge" "amazing" .
I am simply wondering about all these testimonials and sharing my personal experiences coming from a year using this exact system. In fact, at the time of my testing, I was using a similar summing system (well better but that's another topic), Dangerous Master, ST, BAX and SPL Neos plus, the excellent products being talked about in this article and more. I have a few DAW's a few PC, all running pro software, best cabling, power conditioning, etc etc etc. You cannot buy better than what I use so whats up with these Huge results you are getting? My system gets it done on one RME internal clock and never goes out of sync. The phase and clocking is rock solid. There is no doubt in my mind, the way I connect analog and digital together, works.

Generally speaking now.

After I saw this youtube video below, I questioned MM about this all and every answer I got back was unanswered to any logical satisfaction. When I asked logical questions on a GS, the post MM was so evasive, almost like he was clueless (I will also mention.... coincidentally a few days before this video was released) my posts was removed). My post was informing.

Fair enough. I crossed the shill factor line there, so lets try that here.

This particular clock is becoming a personal interests for me because I would like to know why I cannot get the same results[[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"].[/]="http://recording.or…"].[/]
I have been experimenting with hybrid rigs for years and if this clock made a difference for me, if I could feel 100% confident to recommend it to our readers here, I would.
So far, I can't even come close to recommending this. What I recommend is to dump all the crap and bloat people use and get onto the 21 century. Anyone that hears a difference with a clock like this is telling the world their DAW system is clock whacked in the first place lol.

To my tests, if a DAW system is clocked properly in the first place, you never need something like this. Are people like Bob Katz wrong? Am I wrong? I don't think so.
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm

Moving on.
USB under heavy track counts suffers in comparison to interfacing to a dedicated internal PCIe card. You can buy a RME Madi card for thousand less than ever investing in this. Maybe because MM is using a Mac mini and however Logic keeps things clocked, its more problematic? I dunno. What about all the other guys using it who rave about huge improvements!

The biggest improvement to this system has been when I disconnect the Orion from USB and go internal on a dedicated PCIe interface. The unit then becomes rock solid for my heavy looping and punch in tasks that exceed standard production methods. I mention heavy because if it works for me, it should work for most engineers.
When connected to Madi, I was able to set a fast BPM, 2 bar loops and punch in and out for many minutes and never loose sync. I was able to do this with over 70 tracks running ITB and OTB. USB couldn't even come close to this without issues. To my experiences, all converters benefit from PCIe interfacing. USB interfacing is cool up to about 8 channels, after that, its a crap shoot. USB and FW are what I use for my lower track capturing interfacing. FW works a lot better than USB but it too is not as stable as AES EBU or Madi clock.

No matter which way you skin it, the clock appears pointless on a properly clocked system. Maybe they aren't telling us the whole story? Maybe this is best suited for studios with a rats nest of digital products? I'm thinking so. Which is the only reason I am question this and all the other reviews I've read on this. I'm seeing people trust these testimonials, as I did as well later to find that it is a add-on product for very underpowered clocking issues. I mean, why would a company make a product that doesn't clock well in the first place. I just don't get that.

No disrespect intended but ...
The 10M is a beautiful piece of gear but makes ZERO difference to the Orion32 on a system that is setup well. I personally tried everything I could think of to get this to show its value and it didn't even hit the audible mark. Maybe my unit Antelope sent me was broken? I complained about it and they said there was something wrong with me, not the clock lol. Needless to say, I forewarned the new owner of that beauty. I hope it found itself a happy home.

Robert Thu, 12/24/2015 - 04:36

This days I had an opportunity to make testings compare to my Lynx converter. Unfortunately there was no difference which I could hear. Beside my 12 years experiences of working in studio I have invited more technical peoples to confirm my thoughts. I completely agree with findings. in this case is no worth to spent gold as I do in case of a little baby improvements. I'm also person with using internal clocking of little system surrounded with a quite HD stuff with analog patching. Thanks for review.

ric3xrt Sat, 01/09/2016 - 11:20

The only true Digital thing I have going on now is my edit room, which all so doubles for my kid's and her friends EDM Hip Hop, Trance ...I'm sure I'm leaving out some other form of "art" name ...any way when My Big Ben took a dump, the push was on to buy a new Clock, since I changed my layout I really don't have a need for 6k clock sooooo we borrowed a 10m , after a month I got the "we Need this it's fantastic , it perfect speech.....(it was for the kid and she's making some money)
I'll say this , it's made some of the deep edits easier(not 6k easier) ,especially when I have to work with POO tools, if a song was recorded into Reaper with the lesser Pre's Ie Presonus D8's Focusrite , then mixed with Poo Tools, things line up tighter, less quantizing, DSP Long Delays and Deep Reverbs are all on their mark over a long time frame 6-8 mins, under 5 ...no difference, hell my little old ART wordclock is just as good..
I'm not talking sonically here , I'm talking strictly in the box(es) what is seen when wave form is against markers and bars. ,
when these guys lay down a beat at 45BPM, then speed it up to 180BPM, record it at 88.2 then resample to 44.1( I just nod my head and say youth is wasted on the young) track count under 15/16 it's borderline , over 20 It's made a difference, if I wasn't in the position I'm in, ..it wouldn't be enough to influence me to buy it,
in this room, we are clocking (just about everything that can be....I'm still trying to get an answer as to why the Alesis Q2 needs to be clocked) Didgimax LT a D8 and Firestudio FS. thru a RME(HDSP) card to a windows XP box/Reaper (32bit) Poo Tools is on a Windows 7 box(64bit),
In my Studio room B , I'm still using a pair of Orion 32(s) after I read your post I brought the O 32(s) in to record a few tracks with and with out the 10M , hooked to the box thru the RME card(HDSP) and clocked ....I can't hear a difference...but I will say this ,the track we did that was 8Mins, we saw track wander with out the 10m, but it was not anything we could hear. and over 32 tracks it was only .003 and it was the tracks that were not audio heavy, tracks that go 20 to 30 secs with out audio, you know the ones that could be combined with other tracks that go 20- 30 sec and don't over lap with these tracks)
So for what its worth, in studio A , the ole HD24 and Soundcraft 600 sound just as sweet with out the 6k clock as it does with....now at 44.1 the HD24 wanders a bit, so the ART works nice there.
side note here, I have a Behringer V amp Pro, I stopped letting people use it digitally with the onboard effects, it was a nightmare to edit if need be, Chorus, Delay reverb and especially the rotary cab would be all out of sync even when clocked with the Ben, with the 10M, it's rock solid...........but for the price of the 10m, this cheep POS should also wipe my ...anyway I have to run and buy a few tickets for the 900 Million Power ball....if I win, I'm still not going to buy another one, maybe a ben, or this Drawmer clock looks kool

DonnyThompson Sat, 01/09/2016 - 21:41

ric3xrt, post: 435111, member: 47701 wrote: "... so we borrowed a 10m..." "... I'll say this , it's made some of the deep edits easier(not 6k easier) ,especially when I have to work with POO tools, if a song was recorded into Reaper with the lesser Pre's Ie Presonus D8's Focusrite , then mixed with Poo Tools, things line up tighter, less quantizing, DSP Long Delays and Deep Reverbs are all on their mark over a long time frame 6-8 mins, under 5 ...no difference, hell my little old ART wordclock is just as good..
I'm not talking sonically here , I'm talking strictly in the box(es) what is seen when wave form is against markers and bars. ,

So basically, what you're saying is, that for 6 Large, you found that "it made some deep editing a bit easier", and some of the DSP "lined up tighter with less quantizing over a 6-8 min time frame..." and this improvement was based on visual markers, and showed no obvious sonic advantage; and that in the end, you found that your cheaper Art word clock device worked just fine, and accomplished the exact same thing, as the second-mortgage 10m clock sync did...

Have I got this right?

If so, and if I hadn't already been convinced that this 10m was unnecessary, your comments pretty much sewed it up for me.

(It's not my intention to come off as sounding sarcastic here, Ric ... I'm sincere in my comments and curiosity ;) ).

So then, how does a device such as the 10m benefit those of us who are 100% ITB, 90% of the time?
( okay... so, does UAD's DSP/plug-in system, or the Waves Digigrid, or any of the other external DSP processors that hold all the plugs/ FX and the processing power for these various plugs - require (or even have) a word clock connection? I'm asking because I don't know...)

Or, how does the 10M help those who use a 2-DAW system, "mixing down" in real-time from DAW 1 ( the production "multi-track"), to another computer, without any external digital FX being inserted into the workflow, and which is being used simply to capture that real-time playback, similar to what we used to do with a 2 track deck??

Personally, I can think of many other things ( speaking for me) to invest 6 G's into gear-wise, that would show an obvious and substantial difference in sonic quality... especially since I so very rarely work with any external DSP signal processing.

Mics, Pre's, a quality monitor controller, room treatment... (I'm just kinda thinking off the top of my head, here) ... these are the things that would matter more (to me), and that I think would make a substantial ( and audible) difference to a modern DAW Studio....

If I purchased a $ 6000 clock, it'd better do a whole lot more than just make some of my editing "easier", or correct slight drift/quantize past a 6 min project length.

What I'm lead to understand, especially from Chris's ( @audiokid ) various posts on the subject, ( and now yours as well) is that the only real difference the 10M makes, is if you integrate it into a system that is already "clock-whacked" to begin with - and of course, it should improve things at that point, because that's what it's supposed to do, right? But then, the other side of the debate kicks in - discussing easier ( and far less expensive) ways to fix the original clocking issues, instead of continuing on with the original clocking problems, and simply "camouflaging it" with a $ 6000 band-aid.

Just trying to keep all this straight in my head...

Thoughts?

audiokid Sat, 01/09/2016 - 22:15

DonnyThompson, post: 435126, member: 46114 wrote: What I'm lead to understand, especially from Chris's ( @audiokid ) various posts on the subject, ( and now yours as well) is that the only real difference the 10M makes, is if you integrate it into a system that is already "clock-whacked" to begin with - and of course, it should improve things at that point, because that's what it's supposed to do, right? But then, the other side of the debate kicks in - discussing easier ( and far less expensive) ways to fix the original clocking issues, instead of continuing on with the original clocking problems, and simply "camouflaging it" with a $ 6000 band-aid.

(y)

Sean G Sun, 01/10/2016 - 02:50

ric3xrt, post: 435111, member: 47701 wrote: but for the price of the 10m, this cheep POS should also wipe my ...

DonnyThompson, post: 435126, member: 46114 wrote: it'd better do a whole lot more than just make some of my editing "easier"

for 6 large...it sure would want to do a lot more...like make you coffee, rub your feet, iron your shirt and make positive re-inforcement statements like
" that sounds great...your doing such a great job on this mix...you are an amazing engineer...but you know that already, right?...." lol...
- and noticably do all the things they say it does;)

But seriously...you have to look at the motivation behind the people who endorse particular products...not just these types of products but any products.
It is usually people with a perceived authority in their chosen or particular field, who have a following very much in the realm of a cult of personality, or charismatic authority which enables them to reach out to the desired audience, usually by way of mass media.
That usually means a renumeration of some type in return for their endorsement, either by way of product in-lieu, or financial benefit...in most cases the latter.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

But we all are aware of that, right?

As a society we are so conditioned to this, a world of marketing to the masses that we don't even see it because we are so accustomed to it...its psychology of selling 101.

I would respect the views of someone who has genuinely used the product (@audiokid ), who genuinely believes in a product doing what it states it does, is an advocate for it and is doing so for no other reason or financial gain, over someone who believes in or endorses something with the only benefit being to extend their own ego boundaries or increase their bank balance.

FWIW

Kurt Foster Sun, 01/10/2016 - 09:57

when the really inexpensive gear started hitting the market back in the late 90's, i thought it was going to completely obliterate the professional recording business. i really thought it was the death knell. i have to admit that isn't how it went down. what did happen was the middle level studios were wiped out but the big rooms with deep pockets only became more entrenched as the home studio phenomenon exploded. . knock me over with a feather.

even though i had a mid level facility, i was close enough to the bigger rooms, i think that i could have made the jump if, (1) i had known the business would rebound and (2) if i had had enough cash on hand to ride out the storm, neither of which was the case. looking back i should have kept my operation running but i got scared i would end up sitting on a $ 20,000 investment in console and tape machines plus a $ 2,000 per month nut plus a line of credit i had against the business. i really thought the only way to avoid ruin was to cash out.

in hindsight my best move would have been to get a DAW and keep the place going anyway i could. there were a lot of factors i won't go into but i do regret letting it go now. oh well. spilled milk.

big rooms have to have only the best (read as most expensive) in order to attract clients. the owners of these studios all want to buy gear no one else can afford, if only to set themselves apart from the rest of the pack. as long as that remains the case, there will be a demand and those who will supply it. the trick for us is to figure out what is really needed and what's complete bullsh*t. threads like this are a service towards that goal.

DonnyThompson Sun, 01/10/2016 - 11:02

Kurt Foster, post: 435152, member: 7836 wrote: even though i had a mid level facility, i was close enough to the bigger rooms, i think that i could have made the jump if, (1) i had known the business would rebound and (2) if i had had enough cash on hand to ride out the storm, neither of which was the case. looking back i should have kept my operation running but i got scared i would end up sitting on a $ 20,000 investment in console and tape machines plus a $ 2,000 per month nut plus a line of credit i had against the business. i really thought the only way to avoid ruin was to cash out.

Yup. I was in the same leaky boat. I ended up bailing out in 2003 ( and probably 2 years later than I actually should have). There are days that I regret it, and I think I miss it - but if I continue to think about it; the stress of making that monthly nut, the endless hours, the BS I faced the last few years...and I quickly begin to get that old familiar pain in my chest, my breathing gets short, I start to sweat, and I think to myself, "Nah. I don't miss it that much."

;)

-d.

Kurt Foster Sun, 01/10/2016 - 11:10

yep. that was a large part of it. for a 5 year stretch ('94-'99) we were booked 7 days a week / 14 hrs. a day with the large majority of the clients wanting me to engineer for them. i was dreaming i was mixing in my sleep. i woke up everyday exhausted! then, in 2000 my Dad blew a tube and was incapacitated. the ex was a c^nt and refused to help with home care and i was forced to set priorities.

what i would have liked to do was to get other engineers to run the place for me but when i tried that there were other issues that arose making even that impossible. horror stories abounding ..... lol.

audiokid Sun, 01/10/2016 - 17:30

Donny, you are always better at taking my words and improving on them so please keep that going. I think RO has finally matured into a the Pro Audio community the world deserves.

Some companies give me gear on occasion but the first thing I tell them before we shake, I do not shill gear. I talk about the gear I use and that's about it. I'm more excited about how a chain works over one particular product. The Bricasti is one product I can honestly say, it is impossible to emulate. Wow is all I have to say.
But, if you don't have the level of gear to hear it, or know how to use it best, its no better than an ITB reverb.

And as far as mixing as a business goes. If you don't have a good song tracked great in the first place, its doesn't matter what gear you have. All the gear in the world won't make a crappy song tracked bad, sound good anyway.

About 5 years ago Davedog and I got into a debate about clocking and the sound of the digi 003 smashing audio. Without too much detail shared here, maybe he will chime in and recall what I told him about his track and what I was planning to do in the next 5 years. It was about exposing products and shills.
I'm curious to hear how he interpreted it back then and what we thinks of his current system then to now and my comment back then.

In a nut shell, Over my 17 years running RO, I have been paying attention to the higher end gear. In the last 7 years I been researching key manufacturers who I felt were worthy of the gear needed to build a world class summing system. My intent was to build a 2 DAW system that was transparent enough to test on, which would also allow me to make it dirty as I could get.
My goal was to see if all this gear people where raving about was actually that important"today". The 10M is a classic example of how stupid it is getting. I'm not saying you need to believe me either, but I will say this... we can't always trust endorsers and especially websites like GS. What a disservice that place is the the Pro Audio world.

I do believe the people who find this clock helpful are sincere, but I also feel there are others shilling it because they owe a favour or don't know any better. Which is why RO is so awesome.

Once you get the same level of gear as the big boys use, and don't put yourself in the position of having to stretch the truth because you got it for free, well... that's why RO is the best Pro Audio forum on the planet. We are NOT for sale around here.

DonnyThompson Mon, 01/11/2016 - 01:11

Kurt Foster, post: 435157, member: 7836 wrote: what i would have liked to do was to get other engineers to run the place for me but when i tried that there were other issues that arose making even that impossible. horror stories abounding ..... lol.

I tried doing that for a little while, Kurt - probably a month or two - but what happened was that the solo clients I had previously worked with, ended up saying things like, "I'll wait until Donny comes back", or in most cases, they ended up going to other places and working with other producers, when it became obvious that I wasn't coming back.

I had great AE's, don't get me wrong... but they weren't really "producers" or arrangers; and they'd have been the first to admit that, too. But, as straight engineers, or working under the direction of a producer, they were all tops.
They just didn't have the experience with production and arrangement that I had, and none of them were multi-instrumentalists, either, so outside studio cats would have had to have been hired, and that kinda defeated the purpose of the
"one stop, one shop, one price" service that I had carved out as my own specialty niche in the business.

I was so burnt-out by the end of that year (2003), that I wouldn't have been much good to anyone, anyway. It wouldn't have been fair to the clients who were paying money, and who had come to expect a certain level of quality.
I just got to a point where I couldn't deliver that quality anymore. I'm only human, and the years and ridiculous hours I'd put in for the better part of 18 years - along with all the other BS connected to running a business - had really begun to take a serious toll on my health, my marriage, my sanity, and my creativity. I simply wasn't able to meet the level of creative quality anymore, that my clients had all become accustomed to getting for their hard-earned money.

The one thing I did do right, though... and I'm proud of this: I left the business owing nothing to anyone... not one client one single dime, or even owing a single minute of recording time to anybody. I made sure that all my accounts were cleared and balanced out to the satisfaction of the clients. I also left not owing any creditors either.

When I got out, I got out honestly. ;)

So, on Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 6pm, I shut off the lights for the very last time, carrying the last box of "whatever" from my office with me; I locked the front door behind me, got in my car, drove home; feeling calm and confident that I'd made the right decision. The new owners were due in, first thing that following Monday. It wasn't my place anymore. I had to let go of it, it was a done deal.

Four days after that - without any drama, very quietly and very privately - I had a nervous breakdown.

Anyone who thinks this business doesn't have its share of casualties needs to think again. ;)

But that's another story, for another thread.
FWIW
-d.

DonnyThompson Mon, 01/11/2016 - 02:11

audiokid, post: 435165, member: 1 wrote: " ...websites like GS. What a disservice that place is the the Pro Audio world.

They are a disservice because they won't allow opinion or debate contrary to that of their rank and file.
Whether this is due to them not wanting to piss off a paid endorser, or if it's simply because they aren't willing to have their methods questioned, the fact that they deleted your various posts debating the merits of the 10M is a prime example of a dictatorial site, where everyone must bow to "the king" and his sycophants - whether they are right or wrong - or have their posts face the chopping block.

That's not serving the public as a professional audio site, that's a biased Blog.

RO has never deleted anyone's post - at least not ever to my knowledge - simply because a poster doesn't agree with what is being said by those who run the site.

We've deleted spammers, we've deleted idiots, we've deleted those who are cruel and personally offensive, we've deleted those who have a continual record for ignoring TOS.
But we've never deleted any posts, or banned any members, simply because they disagree with others.

Healthy, intelligent debate is good. It sparks discussion, creates awareness, and it tends to get people to do their own research, their own thinking, their own fact-finding.

It'd be pretty sad to have a site where everyone thought the exact same things, liked the exact same gear, drank the same Kool-Aid, or, who had members who were always fearful of having their posts deleted - or being banned - simply because they didn't agree with the status quo of those who run it.

The only thing we've ever asked from our members here on RO - in regard to debate, opinion, and discussion - is that it is done with common respect, and that it is done intelligently; and if "facts" are stated as part of a debate or argument, that those facts are indeed facts, and can be supported by evidence and experience, and aren't just a regurgitation of something someone has "heard" or read from someone else.... (who in turn heard it or read it from someone else, and so on).

Opinions are welcome, too. We all have opinions, we all have our own preferences.
Most of the time, if I am writing a post that I know could be disagreed with, or that is a matter of personal perception or subjectivity, I end all my posts with "IMHO", or, "IMO". This makes it clear to those who are reading, that the post I have written is subjective, and that I'm giving my opinion, based on personal preference or experience.

But, if I'm going to enter into an actual debate with someone over a particular method, or a particular piece of gear, or a certain process... I make sure that I have evidence to back my position up - either thru personal experience and knowledge, or with specs stated from the manufacturer, or, from science that has been proven by someone who is a whole lot smarter than me - someone like F. Alton Everest, for example... or, disciples of his methods and theories of acoustics, which have been scientifically proven.

Myth propagation is where we draw the line. We will not allow someone to post a "how to" article on mic technique, or gain structure, or electronics, or acoustic treatment, if they are blatantly wrong in what they are writing about.
For example, if someone posts that 1" Auralex is an effective treatment option for low frequency resonance in a room, then they're going to be called out on it.
In most cases, they'll be warned the first time, and corrected - and yes, perhaps firmly so -but they'll usually be given another chance. But, if they continue to try to spout myth as fact, they're gonna be shown the door... quickly, and without discussion.

Why? Because RO is a pro audio website; we have a reputation for being as such. We also have a responsibility to the audio community, too - to make sure that those who are seeking answers will get the correct answers ... we have the responsibility to make sure that disinformation and inaccuracy isn't being made public using RO as a vehicle to do so.

We can't control everyone out there on the internet; these types of posters can make these myths and inaccuracies public if they wish, there are penty of places for them to do that - but they ain't gonna do it from here. ;)


FWIW
-d.

Chris Perra Mon, 01/11/2016 - 02:14

I wouldn't be surprised if the 10M is smoke and mirrors depending on the setup. Audiokid... your setup is Orion to Daw 1,.. plug ins etc then audio out to Daw2 with perhaps plug ins etc for final master etc.

Are you using the M10 to clock both interfaces on both Daws or is Daw 2 on it's own?

I guess if you have a system that was 32 in and 32 out.. The outs routing to outboard gear and then back in.... and they were all stand alone each 32 in our out was it's own unit with it's own clock.

You could have 4 units if independent or 2 if they were like the Orion 32 having ins and outs on one unit.

The M10 might work better that way as which one should be the master? The mic input unit or the return unit from the outboard gear?

Chris Perra Mon, 01/11/2016 - 02:14

I wouldn't be surprised if the 10M is smoke and mirrors depending on the setup. Audiokid... your setup is Orion to Daw 1,.. plug ins etc then audio out to Daw2 with perhaps plug ins etc for final master etc.

Are you using the M10 to clock both interfaces on both Daws or is Daw 2 on it's own?

I guess if you have a system that was 32 in and 32 out.. The outs routing to outboard gear and then back in.... and they were all stand alone each 32 in our out was it's own unit with it's own clock.

You could have 4 units if independent or 2 if they were like the Orion 32 having ins and outs on one unit.

The 10M might work better that way as which one should be the master? The mic input unit or the return unit from the outboard gear?

DonnyThompson Mon, 01/11/2016 - 04:16

Sean G, post: 435201, member: 49362 wrote: I wonder if GS has been invaded by the muscle protein powder spammers...or if they have all migrated over to there in the past week:ROFLMAO:

(@audiokid )

Well, from what Chris described, he hit the brick wall with the head-honcho over there, "Mixer Man".

This latest event wasn't the first time. He also took some (un-deserving IMO) heat a few years back, when he attempted to explain the potential benefits of implementing the 2-DAW system within a hybrid workflow; as opposed to how most users commonly implement the process - sending and returning the external DSP or analog processing, to and from the external gear, back to the same DAW.

(I'm not gonna rehash the why's and the how's of this right here and right now. Those who want to know the details, there are plenty of posts in the archives that explain it, if you want to do a search).

IMO, from what I've seen over there, I personally think this is more about revenue... specifically, endorsements. They have always been quick to jump on "the latest and greatest" multi-thousand dollar technology over there, whether it's something that's actually worthwhile and needed or not; because they're getting endorsements/advert revenue from many of these manufacturers, and they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them, nor do they want to shut off the steady supply of free/trial/beta pieces that they are given to use; so, they shill for these manufacturers - whether it's deserved or not, and whether they actually believe in the product - or not.

Chris has never done that. He's been very upfront with manufacturers/advertisers who have approached him; that he's not going to speak out in favor of something, just because they advertise with him or give him something to try; if he doesn't think their product deserves accolades, you can bet he's not going to give them any.

It's through this integrity of his, along with finding the same integrity from other RO members, that I decided to become an active participant here on RO.

To be clear, to be honest and fair, Chris and I don't see eye to eye on everything across the board. There are some things we do ( respectfully) disagree about; (and again, I'm not gonna get into that one here, either) but the one thing that he's never done, is to be dishonest.
That's why I respect and admire him to the huge degree that I do - along with so many other RO members; because no one here is shilling for anyone, no one here is lying about something, just to "feather their own nest".

GS has also garnered the reputation over time for being very curt and short - sometimes downright rude - with those who are new to the craft, even those who are novices with some experience. It's not written in any TOS, but there is a prevailing undercurrent over there that in order to post, you have to "earn the right" to do so. If you are an entry-level participant in this craft, you're next to nothing to them... like something on the bottom of their shoe that they want to scrape off.

I don't believe that RO does this, and I don't believe that it ever would, at least not with the current membership roster, with the people here who are experienced professionals gladly giving of their time, to help those who have questions, who need answers.
Now, we don't spoon feed assistance ... those who are seeking help have to do their share of the work, too - but no one here - or at least no one who is here now, has ever shyed away from helping those who are honestly wanting to improve, and who are willing to study and research on their own as well.

After all, there was a time when we were all in the same boat; seeking information from those who were more experienced. Everyone here - novice and pro alike - were all beginners once, too. ;)

FWIW
-d.

Sean G Mon, 01/11/2016 - 05:07

I don't ever bother with GS...I have a mate who is a 10 year member and all he would ever do for the first hour when I visited him was winge & whine about that particular forum every time I went over to his house...literally every time...I kid you not. There was no way in hell I was going to be apart of that giant bitchfest over there.

Now I know there are a few here who are on that particular forum, Iv'e seen their profiles on threads on the odd time a google search has led me there, and to those I mean no offence, hey, each to their own, but I by no means take anything from that particular site as gospel.

DonnyThompson, post: 435203, member: 46114 wrote: GS has also garnered the reputation over time for being very curt and short - sometimes downright rude - with those who are new to the craft, even those who are novices with some experience. It's not written in any TOS, but there is a prevailing undercurrent over there that in order to post, you have to "earn the right" to do so. If you are an entry-level participant in this craft, you're next to nothing to them... like something on the bottom of their shoe that they want to scrape off.

You are spot on Donny, I have seen it with my own eyes when I have visited my mate, I have been standing there for the first 20 minutes of my visit while he is on his pc reading that stuff out to me...like, are you serious?...who would want to partake in that particular brand of BS??

Thers' nothing Zen about that site

Like I said, each to their own IMO

audiokid Mon, 01/11/2016 - 21:36

Chris Perra, post: 435194, member: 48232 wrote: I guess if you have a system that was 32 in and 32 out.. The outs routing to outboard gear and then back in.... and they were all stand alone each 32 in our out was it's own unit with it's own clock.

tried it round trip, doesn't matter.

I tried it every way I could. Its useless in a properly clocked system. Especially if you are using RME PCIe interfacing.

Just to confirm this, I called the distributor and he said it should sound better just hooked up to the O32 on its own. Well I said, I have a group of people here and none of us hear a difference. All ages from 8 years old to me. We even did a null test and he said a Null test isn't accurate. Really I said. Well, if you can't even hear an improvement or change on a null test... , how could it be remotely worth $ 6000.

He then said, you need really good monitoring. I said I have really good monitoring plus I am using really good headphones too, and I have a bunch of other people that hear no improvement either. So we not only did a null but we did the Pepsi challenge for all ages that hear up to 20k.

Most reputable ADDA designers agree that these clocks are snake oil.
Claiming "huge" improvements when this is connected to the O32 is bogus nonsense. And pushing this on people who don't even go OTB is out right misleading the blind.

Which is why I felt the need to say something in the first place.

Boswell Tue, 01/12/2016 - 03:59

High-end clocks usually have two properties that may not both be present in the built-in clocks in audio interfaces: low jitter and high accuracy.

However, this is from a last November post:

..modern high-end boxes use an incoming clock as a long-term frequency correction of their own internal conversion clock rather than clocking the conversions directly from it.

It's this design development that makes it increasingly unnecesary to spend a large amount on an external clock to achieve low jitter. The high accuracy is still a factor that may be needed, for example, when recording audio for syncing with video.

DonnyThompson Tue, 01/12/2016 - 04:45

Boswell, post: 435245, member: 29034 wrote: The high accuracy is still a factor that may be needed, for example, when recording audio for syncing with video.

I wouldn't know... I trust The Bos Brain to know if this is the case. ;)

But - in terms of everyday audio production, it leaves me wondering if this device, or any similar device, is just all very pricey balloon juice.

I'm not suggesting that the 10m isn't "good" at what it was designed to do - I'm sure it's a well-built device.

I believe that the more pertinent question ( or concern) is if we really need "what it does".

According to some very bright minds around here, the only time that this clock will make any difference, is:

A. If the system in question is suffering from clocking issues to begin with; and one of our members here has gone as far to say, after using this very pricey clock, that he was able to accomplish the exact same level of correction quality using a much less expensive clocking device; to correct those issues that were already resident.

OR

B. Recording audio when syncing for video...

At which point, the cost becomes relevant, and I would defer to Ric's post above ( @ric3xrt ) where he mentioned getting the same results -using visual frame markers - and achieving this tight syncro using a much less expensive ( in his words, "cheap") ART clock.

ric3xrt, post: 435111, member: 47701 wrote: we borrowed a 10m ... I'll say this , it's made some of the deep edits easier (not 6k easier) ,especially when I have to work with POO tools, if a song was recorded into Reaper with the lesser Pre's ie. Presonus D8's Focusrite , then mixed with Poo Tools, things line up tighter, less quantizing, DSP Long Delays and Deep Reverbs are all on their mark over a long time frame 6-8 mins, under 5 ...no difference, hell my little old ART wordclock is just as good..[/QUOTE]

So, IMVHO, for standard audio production, 6 Grand ( or even a tenth of that amount) seems like a pretty hefty price tag for something that can't be heard - by highly tuned ears, (never mind by those who lack that particular skill) - as making an audible difference , or, according to Chris, doesn't even show any difference in a null test. (!)

Okay, so playing devil's advocate here for a moment ... maybe it does show some kind of "improvement" on paper. Perhaps tests have shown that it improves "this" or decreases "that" ( insert your favorite parameter here) ...
Or, maybe it actually is a necessary piece for those who are involved in audio for video production. And maybe it makes "deep" editing easier... but 6 G's worth of "easier"?

I look at it like this - if the only living beings in existence that would actually be able to hear the difference(s) also happen to be species which pee on fire hydrants or sleep hanging upside down in caves, it's of little worth to those of us who still rely on critical listening to determine that which improves our sound - or doesn't, as the case may be - and that's a big pile of money to spend on a "hypothetical", or to make editing a "bit easier", or based on a resultant measurement that could never actually be heard to make an actual audible improvement.

IMVHO of course.

-d.

MrEase Thu, 01/14/2016 - 05:04

I did make some comments on Atomic standards in the clock jitter thread some time ago (page 3, post 47).

To put some figures to this, a "standard" crystal oscillator will normally be 50ppm (parts per million) or better. This equates to error of 180ms in an hour. Clearly if video is not synced with audio then this error would become significant and any lip sync would be completely blown away. It's not often you would see a clip approaching anywhere near this length though. Even the best of simple crystal oscillators (10-20 ppm) would have a problem with this. The next steps are temperature compensated oscillators and then crystal oscillators with the crystal running at an oven stabilised temperature. A good oven controlled oscillator will achieve 0.2 ppm or better. This would result in an error of 0.72 ms in an hour - generally good enough for lip sync and still better than the latency of most sound-cards/DAW's. Of course, an atomic (rubidium) standard will achieve much better (~1 part in 10^10).

This is all very well if such long term accuracy is required (which I very much doubt). Also carefully note that if this accuracy is required to maintain sync over long periods with independent sources, then the independent sources MUST ALSO be produced with a similar atomic clock to keep their own timing accurate. To me this is a joke as even syncing to video is never left for such long periods without adjustments or proper syncing.

It is tantamount to saying we should never sync sound-cards but every sound-card should have it's own atomic standard just to maintain the timing between different cards.

The problem is that all of this has no relevance to the audio quality. As I said repeatedly in the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"]clock jitter thread[/]="http://recording.or…"]clock jitter thread[/], any external clock MUST be processed by a sound-cards own clock circuits in order to drive the converters. It is entirely possible (although nowadays less likely) for these circuits to make a complete mockery of any super low jitter from the external clock. Whatever, the clock jitter is just as much dependent on the sound-cards circuit as the external clock jitter. As I said way back, I see no need whatsoever for anyone (not requiring highly accurate long term sync with unlocked sources) to even consider an atomic clock!

MrEase Thu, 01/14/2016 - 09:51

Further to my earlier post I'd just like to clarify a couple of points.

Boswell, post: 435245, member: 29034 wrote: The high accuracy is still a factor that may be needed, for example, when recording audio for syncing with video.

That may or may not be true (I've never tried to use video syncing) but as I said earlier, for asynchronous (i.e. independent) clocks, then both the video and audio must be recorded using a similar performance clock. It would be pointless for the video to be recorded with a 50ppm clock while the audio was recorded with an atomic standard as the timing errors would be the same as I said earlier. Isn't this why we had SMPTE syncing? Surely I have to believe that we can still sync video with audio....

ric3xrt, post: 435111, member: 47701 wrote: I'm not talking sonically here , I'm talking strictly in the box(es) what is seen when wave form is against markers and bars.

This makes no sense at all and there must be a more serious problem somewhere. The only timing reference a DAW has derives directly from the sampling clock of the sound-card. If you record at 44.1kHz then the DAW expects (and assumes) that there are exactly 44100 samples in each and every second (irrespective of frequency variations or jitter). There is no way around this. If markers within the DAW do not subsequently line up then there MUST be some discrepancy in the number of samples in a second. It is (almost) impossible that "extra" samples can be recorded so the assumption must be that some samples are being lost. How that could be happening is beyond me unless something is seriously at fault. This could be the DAW itself (not powerful enough hence missing samples?) or a fault on the sound-card. Either way it simply should not happen and the problem should certainly be sorted out BEFORE anyone ever considers shelling out thousands of dollars on an atomic clock! The fact that, in this case, it seems to resolve a problem does not mean that the problem should not be sorted out first or forgotten...

audiokid Thu, 01/14/2016 - 09:56

MrEase, post: 435331, member: 27842 wrote: This makes no sense at all and there must be a more serious problem somewhere. The only timing reference a DAW has derives directly from the sampling clock of the sound-card. If you record at 44.1kHz then the DAW expects (and assumes) that there are exactly 44100 samples in each and every second (irrespective of frequency variations or jitter). There is no way around this. If markers within the DAW do not subsequently line up then there MUST be some discrepancy in the number of samples in a second. It is (almost) impossible that "extra" samples can be recorded so the assumption must be that some samples are being lost. How that could be happening is beyond me unless something is seriously at fault. This could be the DAW itself (not powerful enough hence missing samples?) or a fault on the sound-card. Either way it simply should not happen and the problem should certainly be sorted out BEFORE anyone ever considers shelling out k on an atomic clock! The fact that, in this case, it seems to resolve a problem does not mean that the problem should not be sorted out first or forgotten...

exactly. (y)

kmetal Thu, 01/14/2016 - 22:43

If I remember correctly Dave heard a difference when he clocked his 003 to an alesis. I think the determination was that the converters were thought as bad, because much of it was clocking?

I'm could be way off, but from what I've gathered over the years with only a few conveyer chips available out there, the difference in high end interfacing is clocking and analog technology.

I may add that ric3xrt is using some notoriously bad digi/avid stuff, so inaccuracies and sync issues don't surprise me. That said, I don't think 6k on a clock for a 1k setup makes a whole Lotta sense. A lot of cents. But wasted as the problem could be anywhere from computer issues to a bad designed interface. I would bet a nice solid interface with its own internal clock ala apogee, prism, Ect would show marked improvements.

But I'm not super technical yet, and kinda skimmed thru these posts, cuz frankly, I'm surprised anyone's still talking about it. Thought the dust settled years ago. lol i also thought Chris might be angry and wanted to vent some more. Lol not the case this time. Maybe I'll start a thread about building a high end studio with the intention of profit. Lol

audiokid Sat, 01/16/2016 - 04:46

kmetal, post: 435339, member: 37533 wrote: lol i also thought Chris might be angry and wanted to vent some more. Lol not the case this time.

For certain in this case, I have no reason to vent. More like, its fun exposing BS and shills. Pro audio isn't that complicated to me to ever let it effect my logic.

On that note: The times I may appear to be angry in the past, are most likely Remy and other Crazy related thinkers that steer threads into Borderline Narcissistic patterns that make topics and what was once a really good topic, sound as crazy as the narcissists.
Also, my auditory passion and poor wordsmith mix is not my strong point. Audio is so simple to me, explaining it in words is not.
:)

Sean G Sat, 01/16/2016 - 05:24

audiokid, post: 435384, member: 1 wrote: On that note: The times I may appear to be angry in the past, are most likely Remy and other Crazy related thinkers that steer threads into Borderline Narcissistic patterns that make topics and what was once a really good topic, sound as crazy as the narcissists.

My bad....
Guilty, your honour;)

audiokid Sat, 01/16/2016 - 05:48

Sean G, post: 435387, member: 49362 wrote: My bad....
Guilty, your honour;)

no, I don't think so lol. You are far from what I am describing...

You know when those people are around when it goes from Neve to Behringer as being just as good in a pro Audio category. Or, when someone says, all converters are the same. Or, when there are no breaks in a post that has 50 thousand words in it, that start out with the OP and end up talking about a hair cut.

Or when they guys name is MM and he is doing a video for a company pushing one these things to the unaware on GS.

audiokid Sat, 01/16/2016 - 06:47

A few of these endorser guys used to be moderators for us years ago until I got wise to their motives. It took me a few years to figure out who was using forums to learn and who was using them to profit. Once I started understanding how these people get gear, and what "some" manufacturers do to market, it's easier to spot the shill factor and collateral spin-off.
If that makes any sense.

I'd like to see half of the endorsers we take advise from mix or master music that was just plain badly recorded and see how they do. They are selling dreams to people so passionate to succeed, they will do anything to make it in this business. I hate that part of our "music business". Taking advantage of artistic dreams and desperation to keep reaching for the carrot.

Sean G Sat, 01/16/2016 - 06:49

audiokid, post: 435406, member: 1 wrote: They are selling dreams to people so passionate to successes they will do anything to make it in this business.

And theres' their market...

Sean G, post: 435405, member: 49362 wrote: Charlatans will always sell snake oil to those that know no better...

kmetal Sat, 01/16/2016 - 15:07

Lmao. Remy was and enjoyable cat, within reason. She really lost it towards the end. She was full of lost knowledge...

Lol how many times can one hear 'an sm57 can sound just like a nuemann.' Ahhh the days, I came around at the tail end of all that.

The forum is more like a coffee shop now, than the bar scene it used to be. D does a hell of a job as moderator, although some of the former ones like Dave and and a few others were fairly level headed.

kmetal Sat, 01/16/2016 - 18:25

Quirks, shills, and narcissism aside, I will say that personally rod g, has been generous with his time with me over the years. I've called him a few times with some studio build questions and he's always throughly answered them often spending about an hour or so on the phone. Despite me offering, he's never accepted payment for his time. While I understand where some issues could arise otherwise, he's been fairly generous w me, and I certainly haven't made him any money, besides one canopy of his book. Lol I'm sure that will change when I build my garage/apt, the living room of which will be a tuned listening environment. The adjacent house will be income property, as we all know the mixing room probably won't ;) lol

Remy was also pretty cool when I called her about my Tascam tape machine. Now I know she loves to hear herself speak, but I called sometime in the middle of the night a little buzzed and talked with her till the early am. She hasn't exactly had a 'normal' existence or a necessarily easy time. She greatly overcompensated for this in public forums. Lol. But she wasn't rude to me, and was super technical and helpful, and yes, she told me all about her neves and how they took a bath in the tub with warm soapy water for a week to clean the grime off the components.

Again I understand some of the things and why they happened over on the forum, and I don't disagree w the results. But I thought it was worth noting that these people have been generous outside the digital RO realm.

Way off topic by now- but I think a lot of the online attitudes come from people looking for approval of their hair brained ideas, or receiving good solid advice, and not doing much or any of it. Asking questions without doing a little research is also a good way to get reamed. I still don't see a need to be a jerk, as it's far easier to simply provide the evidence and then 'tap out' or 'throw in the towel'. I've worked w a couple blow hard know it alls in person over the years, and as I become/became more seasoned they're knowledge became less important and I stuck up for myself more. That said a remarkable amount of people, online, and in person, in the music world are nice generous people who love their art. Gs is full of turds, but I frequent the acoustics forum since RO's went into slow mo, and I find that the true professionals over there are informative and not jerks. There is however, shameless shilling, and 'read this link on my site' by a few people, but the other few just have there site listed at the bottom, you can tell they have nothing to prove other than the conversational points. Lol I skip the gear based forums most of the time, although I find it useful to find negative things about products, and to get a sort of concensus. Just some thoughts, as I know Chris spent some fair time cleaning the house a year or two ago.

audiokid Sat, 01/16/2016 - 19:07

Remy
[SPOILER=Remy]started stocking me on FB a few weeks back. I had to report her. Here I was, just posting some threads and what my hybrid studio looked like (specifically the beautiful Pultec rack). The next time I returned, there she was, disturbed as usual, yelling out that I was an impostor and clueless about recording. That was terrible, undeserving, mean.

She is nice to some, and mean to others. There is no in between for people to me. You are either one way or the other (good or not good). With us or against us.
If only I had know, I would have put up an sm58 and she would have had less trash to say to me lol.
What a flip case.[/SPOILER]

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