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anonymous 16 November 2005

how do let a band now that if you boost the bass frequencies any more on guitar that you won't be able to here anything but rumble, but they insist that they wnat more bass? i know it will soundn like ass and i dont want this coming out of my studio, but they are pretty sure they want more bass on guitars. should i play dumb? i am sure someone has encounterd this problem before...

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UncleBob58 Thu, 11/17/2005 - 00:31

I've found that in a lot of cases just making the bass louder will satisfy their need for "more bass".

Another trick is to duplicate the track, compress the hell out of it, EQ to make it all very low frequency bass, maybe some extra sub-sonics from a plug and gradually mix it in until they are happy. You will at least have more control that way.

You can try duplicating the track, pitching it down an octave and slowly mix that in with the track.

You can also suck some of the lows out of the kick (and/or guitar[s]), then the drummer (and/or the guitarist[s]) will bitch; let them know that they have to compromise.

Or even let tell them that mastering will take care of the problem.

Another good solution is to have them bring in a recording of a commercially released song that has the bass sound they want and play it in your studio to show that your mix will translate the same way.

It's thier dollar, so keep your client happy, give 'em what they want.

anonymous Thu, 11/17/2005 - 09:50

Here is what I usually do...make the guitars thicker, thin out the bass a ton. Make the bass and guitar relationship that of more traditional metal mixes where the bass is very twangy and edgy and the guitars are carrying a lot of low end...see if they like that. They may or may not but explain that you cant have both the bass and guitars carrying the same low end and still have good definition. Somebody already said it but i will reiterate...bring up the bass - especially the low mids of the bass and try high passing the guitars at around 120hz or so. The mids of the bass create that fundamental note of the guitars a lot of the time - giving the perception that the guitars are nice and full of low end when in reality you have thinned them out a bit.

Cucco Thu, 11/17/2005 - 11:41

stickers wrote: Well if they want it, do it. bottom line. But hey do your own mix for them to take..they may realize you were right.

Not a bad idea. Put a little extra effort in and I bet they'll be happy.

The other thought is - when someone approaches me with a concept like this that I find to be absurd, I often find that we aren't talking about the same thing.

Their concept of "more bass" for the guitars may be far different than yours. You might reach for a wide Q paramatric at say 50 or 60 Hz, but they might really want you to simply compress it a bit so that the articulations are more aggressive giving the guitar a more weighty feel.

When in doubt, try to remove audio terminology from the equation. Either get them to use other words to describe what they want or have them give you tangible examples.

It's obvious you have probably verbally disagreed with the clients. This isn't a major offense - hey, it's your job to be the recording expert after all. But, instead of insisting they're crazy, simply say something to them like -
"Well, we seem to disagree a little here, so it's more likely that we're not on the same page. Let's figure out exactly what we mean."
It seems a bit "Mr. Roger-ish" but it can work. It shows that you're willing to work with them instead of push them around.

Or, you could always just reach for the bass knob on the stereo and say - "See, I turned up the bass..."

J.

Reggie Thu, 11/17/2005 - 12:00

I agree with having them bring in a CD they are familiar with so they can hear it on your monitors. They probably don't know that studio monitors are meant to sound flat, and not hyped in the bass like a car or home stereo would. Or, you could keep a cheapy subwoofer handy to kick on when they want to hear more bass and then turn it back off while you are doing critical listening. If they question you, you can just say "Oh, it sounds like that because I don't have the sub on right now. [switch sub on] See? Now I need to turn it off while I listen to the rest of the mix. "

Or just do what they say, and give them a test mix before you get too far into the process. Once they hear the mud, they will probably back off with telling you how to mix.

I don't know about dropping the part down an octave. I can't imagine that sounding too great.

anonymous Thu, 11/17/2005 - 12:54

hey thanks for all the help. i have given them a mix and they think that is thin in their car. i havent actully told them i disagree just told them i will work on it. i think thining the bass might help alot, i tend to like my bass loud and have the guitars more as a texture. i will do some more mixing and when i am capapble of figuring out how to put it up here i will let you guys here, thanks alot i appreciate all the help
steve

anonymous Fri, 11/18/2005 - 14:16

Cucco wrote:
Or, you could always just reach for the bass knob on the stereo and say - "See, I turned up the bass..."

J.

Ah, yes, the old Placebo Control. I used to use it a lot when I did FOH mixing and some drunk guy would come up and give me the benefit of his, er, wisdom as to how to fix my mix. "Good idea; let me do that (twisting the Placebo Control (knob that does nothing) with look of intense concentration on my face). There. How's that?" Thumbs up from the drunk, and then he goes off to brag to his girlfriend about how he straightened me out. Fine, just don't come back, dickweed. ;^)

anonymous Wed, 11/23/2005 - 07:36

I don't think the title of this thread was appropriate. While the band is pretty generic in their style, they're by no means bad. I've dealt with mostly hardcore-style bands lately, you could have charged them a lot more. You didn't even charge them $40 a song! Next time try $75 or $100 per song. You'll find that most bands will say "damn, that's a good deal!" This is a hardcore-esque band I worked with a few months ago http://www.myspace.com/portraitofadream ...I think their price was something like $75 or $100/song. Granted, the bass player is a long time close friend so there was a bit of a deal involved, but you get the idea.

How long did it take you to complete this session from begining of tracking to the time you handed them the master CD?

anonymous Sat, 11/26/2005 - 08:34

eightsonstudio wrote: how do let a band now that if you boost the bass frequencies any more on guitar that you wont be able to here anything but rumble, but they insist that they wnat more bass? i know it will soundn like ass and i dont want this coming out of my studio, but they are pretty sure they want more bass on guitars. should i play dumb? i am sure someone has encounterd this problem before...

Sometimes musicians have no common sense as to what the dynamics are of mixing. I share in your dilemma, and been in similar situations before. There are ways to boost a little more bass on guitars but you have to do it within reason. And it does require skill to do it (not saying you dont have skill). Why dont you do as they ask, but then do your mix too, give them an A/B and let them decide on which.

anonymous Mon, 11/28/2005 - 15:39

eightsonstudio wrote: how do let a band now that if you boost the bass frequencies any more on guitar that you wont be able to here anything but rumble, but they insist that they wnat more bass? i know it will soundn like ass and i dont want this coming out of my studio, but they are pretty sure they want more bass on guitars. should i play dumb? i am sure someone has encounterd this problem before...

I don't think the "more bass/less bass" argument is exactly "making a band sound better than they are". That's more like "not letting them put too much bass in my mix". Having the proper amount of bass doesn't make them a better or worse band, it just makes it easier to hear which they are...good or bad.

anonymous Mon, 11/28/2005 - 20:43

Thanks for all the replies i have not been able to post due to pc problems. I shouldnt have said "bad" band, maybe "bland" :lol:
but i took about 2 days to track (4 hours due to my full time job) and then maybe 3-5 hours to mic. i have some good templates to work off of so it goes pretty fast for me. whati ended up doing is giving them 5 differnet mixes and mailing htem today. i am sure they will be happy, i just feel ill about the fact that they said they feel "ripped off" which iwould serously consider a exageration.
i am doing a hardcore 7 inch split right now that is coming out much better, i also have a couple full lenthgs that i am working on. if you wnat to tell me what you like and dont like about my mixes check out this band

myspace.com/statusgreen

i used my 002 coverters and my la-610 for all 4 songs which is pretty obvous by the lack of seperation. but since then i have gotten some better converters and clocks (big ben yeaaaah). so i will pst that stuff in march when the record is dunn
thanks again for all the comments

feel free to email me on criteques

eightsonstudio@hotmail.com

thanks again

anonymous Mon, 12/05/2005 - 09:59

i was hearing some slit pahsing issues. i double tracked the guitars with 414 and 421 and panned them hard. i did realize i was get some pahsing issues but it didnt really occur to me until i got to mixing to see how significant it was, i acan livee with it but for a more serous project i wouldnt have let that happen. 3 to 1 for phasing probelms on mic situtions correct?

anonymous Tue, 12/06/2005 - 11:01

no doubt on that thread. i got get my distances correct, it seems like i ahve a rtendency of over micing guitar cabs. i find my self only using one of the mics anyway in final mix or in the case of a band i am doing now i used a 414 throug a vintech x73 for the higher end and a 421 through a la 610 for the bottom, which since i am not having any phase issues hhas helped alot with getting the right zound for th eband.
more bite put up the 414 more low end turn up the 421

anonymous Wed, 12/07/2005 - 12:34

i tried out the method where you turn up the volume on the amp and put the mix in mono, flip the phase, and it worked amazingly. perfect balance.

so it goes something like this:

1. do not plug in a guitar, just turn the volume up to 11. you'll hear some weird fuzzish hiss sounds.

2. take 2 mics. hard pan L&R (not necessarily to keep it this way in final mix)

3. flip the phase on one mic.

4. take the first mic and move it's placement until you find a nice sweet spot, not too much high end, etc.

5. take the second mic, and move it around until the sound all but disappears.

6. flip the phase back and put back into stereo.

you now have perfect phase between the 2 mics.

worked like a charm for me recently.

as always, YMMV.

--steve

anonymous Fri, 12/09/2005 - 11:30

Remember, eightonstudio, the customer is always wrong, just don't ever tell 'em that...sensitive artists need kid gloves ("hmm interesting idea","hmm unorthodox","hmm different" etc. - i.e. "you must be kidding, are you deaf"). People in our position do indeed have to suffer fools gladly, it seems.

At least multiple mixes means even if they use a shitty one you still have a good mix for your own future reference, & you can have a good laugh at their choice (later).

They could only claim to have been ripped off if you hadn't tried to make them happy, sounds like you went out of your way by giving them alternative mixes more to their liking. Those dweebs have some nerve at that price.

Nothing like gratitude, is there?

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