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Mixer connections

Need help with set up of Mackie ProFX6 to sub and powered monitors.

Comments

pcrecord Thu, 12/03/2020 - 08:34
The KRK 8, for most rooms don't need a subwoofer.. Frequency Response:36Hz-40kHz
But the monoprice ?? I would trash it right away.. for home theator maybe but not for studio work.
The KRK sub is only 350$ : https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KRK8S2--krk-8s-8-inch-powered-studio-subwoofer
And it has all the connexions and crossover needed..
Compared to your monoprice (200$ for the 60w) (300$ for the 150w) don't know which one you have..

pcrecord Thu, 12/03/2020 - 08:36
Remember Studio monitors aren't made to sound good.. They are made to force you to make better mixing decisions so the your music sounds good everywhere. ;)

Home sound systems have some EQ curve to them (the smile shape EQ)
Very different then studio speakers.

Of course after a time, I'm so used to my studio monitors, I can enjoy listening to music on them with no problem..

Kurt Foster Thu, 12/03/2020 - 08:46
i never did get the whole subwoofer approach in a professional setting. if a room is large enough to accommodate a LF wave below 50hZ, it's certainly large enough to accommodate speakers large enough to generate said LF wave and imo it's always better to have source points located in close proximity, not scattered all over the room. it doesn't make sense to me. i can see it in a home theater or music system but not for a recording studio. but anyways Patrick, that's how to connect the system.

Patrick Black Thu, 12/03/2020 - 08:59
pcrecord, post: 466172, member: 46460 wrote: The KRK 8, for most rooms don't need a subwoofer.. Frequency Response:36Hz-40kHz
But the monoprice ?? I would trash it right away.. for home theator maybe but not for studio work.
The KRK sub is only 350$ : https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KRK8S2--krk-8s-8-inch-powered-studio-subwoofer
And it has all the connexions and crossover needed..
Compared to your monoprice (200$ for the 60w) (300$ for the 150w) don't know which one you have..

The KRK sub @$350 is great - making use of the novice investment on the $100 sub. Sound ok by my standards:-)...I know! crazy. The connectivity issues due will be resolved with the great guidances received. Will follow up and update on success. ONE LOVE!

kmetal Thu, 12/03/2020 - 11:30
Kurt Foster, post: 466174, member: 7836 wrote: i never did get the whole subwoofer approach in a professional setting. if a room is large enough to accommodate a LF wave below 50hZ, it's certainly large enough to accommodate speakers large enough to generate said LF wave and imo it's always better to have source points located in close proximity, not scattered all over the room. it doesn't make sense to me. i can see it in a home theater or music system but not for a recording studio. but anyways Patrick, that's how to connect the system.

Subs can make sense for a couple reasons. One is that you can place them where bass response is flattest without worrying about messing up the stereo image. With bass being omni its not sensitive to location, though phase and timing are something to consider. Tho not technically a point source i still feel like i get a sense of direction with small subs, ie i can tell where its eminating from.

Floor bounce. This typical 100-180hz dip caused by the speaker and its relation in distance to the floor. It happens in every room. Tuning the crossover of a sub up to the frequncy of concern in that range can help get rid of the dip.

Headroom. Smaller, or lower cost studio monitors often lack headroom before distortion. The sub can give you some more volume before distortion. This gives you the option to roll off bass on the mains, or use the sub to reinforce the frequncies.

Using two subs can actually improve the rooms bass response. There's a well written thread about it on gs.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?p=12205222&highlight=Adding+sub+instead+of+bass+trapping#post12205222

I think particularly with 2way designs we are asking way too much from the 6 or 8" woofer. We expect accuracy from 50hz all the way up to 1.5k or so where the tweeter crosses over? This is an insane amount of range for a driver to cover, and requires a ton of headroom on the amps for fast transient response and low distortion. Sure cab design is integral, but expecting articulate mid range with defined lows from a single fairly small driver is a lot to ask. A sub can add clarity and definition to the low end with no penalty in the upper range.

There's a big difference between a kids car, a theaters LFE (rumble channel), and a sub for sound reinforcement/studio. The studio sub is an extension of the speakers and shouldn't be discernable as "a sub". It shouldn't sound seperate imho.

Subs don't neec to be expensive to work. CLA and others of that ilk use a 100% big box store infinity sub along side their ns-10s. Ive heard a few using a Yamaha low cost home theater in their systems.

The late great acoustic designer Bogic Petrovic states his case for large drivers even in small rooms. Tho not all agree its an interesting stance.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/1185140-why-do-you-need-big-studio-monitors-even-small-control-rooms.html

bouldersound Thu, 12/03/2020 - 11:41
kmetal, post: 466181, member: 37533 wrote: Subs can make sense for a couple reasons. One is that you can place them where bass response is flattest without worrying about messing up the stereo image. With bass being omni its not sensitive to location, though phase and timing are something to consider. Tho not technically a point source i still feel like i get a sense of direction with small subs, ie i can tell where its eminating from.

I pretty much agree, but I would refine it a bit. Bass itself isn't omni, small bass cabinets are essentially omni, as is our hearing below about 300Hz. Perhaps we get a vague sense of direction in that range, but if you compare it with the sound of panned LF in headphones, there's a giant difference. So it's generally acceptable to put a sub where it works with the room interactions and not worry too much about it being off center.

kmetal Thu, 12/03/2020 - 13:21
bouldersound, post: 466182, member: 38959 wrote: I pretty much agree, but I would refine it a bit. Bass itself isn't omni, small bass cabinets are essentially omni, as is our hearing below about 300Hz. Perhaps we get a vague sense of direction in that range, but if you compare it with the sound of panned LF in headphones, there's a giant difference. So it's generally acceptable to put a sub where it works with the room interactions and not worry too much about it being off center.

Its definitely best to place the sub where response is best imho.

What i found with my Cambridge Soundworks sub i used in a bose home theater system was i could notice the sub was off to the left, off center. This i attributed to the small cabinet and 8" driver having harmonics that were dispersing higher frequnecy (directional) sound, combined with inadequate coveravege in the 12×26 room. Kicks and bass had a not obvious, but not subtle left heavy (apparent) panning to them. I tried it on both sides to outrule room anomalies. I found it mildly irritating for every day use, but would find it confusing for mixing, especially balancing LF of panned things like guitars or keys.

This is where having 2 subs, or larger drivers and cabs can make a difference in that directionality.

Maybe a more accurate way of putting it is bass propagates omnidirectionally from a speaker in a room, and we don't receive directional cues from low frequencies?

The difference in the theory and practice is how much or little harmonic content the speaker and box are outputting. And also the gradual morph of behaviour from wave-like to ray-like as frequency increases. Then there's the volume of air and coverage differences between different size boxes and speakers.

I don't disagree with the theory, just that in practice you don't have a sub with a perfectly steep cutoff.

bouldersound Thu, 12/03/2020 - 13:29
That idea of harmonics above the intended band seems reasonable. I wonder what the crossover frequency is on your speaker system. I have a run of the mill decent consumer 10" sub being crossed over in my home theater receiver and I don't really hear a directional effect. One nice thing about it, I listen to everything on it, so my ear is pretty well calibrated to a general average of many sources.

kmetal Thu, 12/03/2020 - 13:47
bouldersound, post: 466184, member: 38959 wrote: That idea of harmonics above the intended band seems reasonable. I wonder what the crossover frequency is on your speaker system. I have a run of the mill decent consumer 10" sub being crossed over in my home theater receiver and I don't really hear a directional effect. One nice thing about it, I listen to everything on it, so my ear is pretty well calibrated to a general average of many sources.

Crossover was around 80hz. It could also be the entertainment center in the way too.

Kurt Foster Thu, 12/03/2020 - 13:58
subwoofers, while attempting to solve one problem only introduce more problems (as described as well as crossover distortions/ nulls).

if the goal is to accurately monitor audio, room size must be taken into consideration. if the room is large enough to accommodate waves below 50 Hz.. then you can start thinking about how you want to generate them. otherwise you really are better off with monitors that roll of around 40Hz. as is typical for near fields.

the whole idea of large mains in a large CR, is to push enough air to get the room up to 85dB without stressing the amplifiers. weak ass powered monitors with power switching supplies hooked up to a subwofer (another crap amp) only makes for several compromises to try to fix one and won't sound as good a a set of big ass soffit mounted mains or even free standing mid fields.

kmetal Thu, 12/03/2020 - 15:01
Cheap crossovers are a definite compromise.

Afaik any room can accommodate the full audio spectrum. The issue is what frequencies a room reinforces. Below the fundemental frequency of a room, the boundaries no longer reinforce the sound, ie no modal resonance.

There is the size of the room (which frequncy is the cutoff) and the rigidity/density of the boundaries (how much sound is contained or lost).

So a tiny room with cloth walls would have no issue with the full range of audio, which would be an extreme example.

If your speakers are full range in a small room, it doesn't make things worse because they are full range. Anything below the cutoff of the room (say 40hz) isn't reinforced by the room, so it doesn't make modal issues any worse. The room can't "see" below 40hz, so anything below that behaves like a speakers outdoors. Its the subs physical location and settings that can affect the part of the spectrum that the room can reinforce. The effect can be good or bad.

It comes down to if the crossover distortion is worse than the improvements in modal response, and the otherwise virtually un-solvable floor bounce null. Or the lack of definition in the LF. If i recall Yamaha hs8 are like 10db down at 40hz.

Large monitors are great imho. They have great coverage and full range. In soffits, you solve some issues related to SBIR, but you do need to EQ them to compensate for them being placed near the corners/front wall, which boosts the lows.

Mixing on mains was my favorite even if they were not the most accurate.

The problem with most subs imho is incorrect placement and gain/crossover settings. You shouldn't know there is a sub, it should be seamless, an extension of the mains.

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