Let's face it, all of us at one time or another have heard a new artist on the radio or a video and wondered "Why the hell are they signed and I'm not? They suck!"
What's your take on this controversial and subjective subject?
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Record companies are always on the prowl to find new artists who don't have a clue what is happening in the business. They do this because the artists will sign a deal that gives all the profits to said record companies. The minute the artist gets smart the company quits promoting them. It's all about control..producers that want to control all aspects of performance. They pretty much have most of it all sewn up now, the song writing, production and promotion. (Pro Tools) They don't want anything that is intelligent or thought provoking. The people who are able to come up with an original idea are considered to be "difficult". Just wait and see what I mean, Dixie Chicks (IMO one of the only good things out there) just held up their record company for a new deal. A sure sign that their demise is on the way. ............ Fats
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!
Styles, what pisses me off even more is...
I have 54 bands I have helped over the last 4 years. Yes, that is 54 albums. Not for profit. I believed in the fellows. Some ladies as well.
I provided one of the finest finished products I have ever heard. I am not alone in this. I have many folks (all I have worked with and all teir friends) that have listened, say the sound is beyond belief. All of the genres from Hard rock to jazz to classical to opera to country to lounge to techno..I make it kick ass and work very hard to take it to the top. As good as it can be presented. Period.
I have had record companies look at the work..many of them and their jaw drops. One dude pissed in his pants right in the chair. I have been ripped off (one distributor, I sent the demo out, changed the name of the band and sold it in the European and Asian market the distrubutor is basically untouchable)I have been told the acts are "too good for mainstream" I have been told all kinds of BS.
It is a private club folks. Unless you are "IN" you are "NOT IN". Some do get lucky if they are willing to suck dick or lick ass. I master for streaming audio, do live gig recording and just about anything you can think of...but I am almost willing to bet if I lovered my standards of sound and production...I may get someone seriously looking at something. For the pure hell of it I took one of my works that had great dynamics and squashed the pure hell out of it where it had 1dB signal to signal ratio and was running the limit of digital audio output. Just took something that was alive and vibrant and turned it into complete icecubes BSitas loud as a mofo. I mean louder than loud..spinal tap had the 11, I had the googol plex (for those who do not know a googol is a 1 followed by 100 zeros or 10 to the 100th power. A plex is a googol zeros. It was clipping every players output it would go in and the wavews were not square..just a flat line at zero basically with some wiggles (obsurd sine wave)peak to peak. My poor sony sacd was topping 3 volts at the output of the RCA jacks. 0.775v is ref 0DBU. I did it to make it sound like ASS
I actually had some people (in the biz) think it was cooler than the high quality rendition..I was asked..is the soft one unplugged?? can you make that one loud too?
Sometimes I want to just say FUCK it. I guess the world will have to wait a while for the "new deal" to take hold. I have had the "new deal" since I quit working exclusively with the majors. I would work and be "IN" if I had the final total say of the audio ballistics. I have had it in the past with the majors. It is now a new school of the same old BS.
We've got to face up to the radio problem. Radio is only playing cuts that focus groups approve. The only material that gets to the focus groups is the stuff people have paid big bucks to the stations as what amounts to an entry fee. This situation really sucks but it isn't really the major labels' fault.
We all just need to find affordable ways to work around radio, Madison Avenue and Wall Street. The majors wouldn't sign Johnny Cash or Elvis Presley today because they appeal to too large a cross-section of the population for radio's needs. I think niche marketing is the problem and not a solution.
Also the overall sales really are down and big-time. What I meant was that the spread between in-store sales and others is still growing. Any "alternative" has to include some kind of a personal contact presence comparable to a store.
Bob O..that is a point well taken.
focus groups...Awwww Bullshit...why do that to us too????
It is true in todays marketing biz in this.
Last time I called you I was in my nice home that is 1400 miles away from my new home of a year now.
Funny how divorces happen.
Hey..have you experimented in any Tube amp building or loudspeaker loading and designing as of late?
Some real shot is hitting the fan with the Bottleheads, fun for us and all (when we have time) and damn well worth it young Man...
Put some hair around it......
Bob, the equipment and advances here is eating the high end (close to Halco) stuff alive for some time and fun...they have it..this stuff is pure and uncoloured...you have to build it properly..forum to back it too.
It has helped me obtain higher-fi
I know Ken.
I had a job earlier this year cleaning up a single I had already heard on the air. When it came down to shipping the master, it turned out there was no label involved at all, only a management company! They had actually gotten this single played coast to coast in order to create a bidding war among the majors for their artist.
Even ten years ago radio wouldn't have touched anything that wasn't moving serious units in the stores after a little play. Now they could care less if nobody cares enough about a record to buy it, it's all about how well it "tests" for "narrowcasting." Labels are also dropping artists behind bad tests without ever releasing the album.
Maybe the answer is vinyl! It certainly isn't anything remotely related to Wall Street or Madison Avenue.
My 2 copper pennies.
Being a Gospel and CCM lover for the past 25 years, I am appalled at the total lack of content.
It's as if someone said hey lets not talk about God in music and sell it and call is Gospel, or CCM. When the whole basis for the WORD Gospel is the 1st 4 books of the New Testament. And being a Christian is the rest of the New Testament. Acts to Revelations.
It has sickened me and I no longer support such a watered down medium. I simply refuse to Buy gospel.
Now a days they talk about their personal lives and thoughts with no regards to the promises God made or the instruction included in "The Good Book."
So much so we have lost the REAL meaning of this music Genre.
As a Musician (small time) and an Engineer I have recorded and co-produced a ton of STUFF. It seems the only people making good CCM/Gospel Music are the Churchs (not all of them, but most.)
The Solo artists are mnore concerned about showing their Bra sizes, and the like than doing Quality Music.
I can remember when the Baptist church had the best Quality vocals. Is it a dying art? Now the artists sound like tweet or Ashanti or Brittney... To name a few.
Can any one sing any more.
I just completed a song for my artist with REAL musicianship. I am appalled at how the other musicians working on this project for me are in SHOCK that soemone can actually come up with orchestration, CHARTED orchstration at that.
What do these people learn. My 1st 8 years with a PIANO was reading, charting, etc... Although I played by ear, I learned the basics.
Please bring back quality music, or is that why Old school groups are starting to sell again with fervor.
A 15 year old girl on a local station doing a teen newcast had this to say.
"when it comes to the music kids are buying today, they are looking at retro groups like Zeppelin, EWF, Beatles, etc..."
Even the kids are figuring it out.
Have a good one.....
Bryan Giles
I think your observations are right on target. Content polarizes people causing them to strongly like or dislike something. Advertisers prefer something that says nothing but that people "identify" with or use as a decoration to make a statement about who they are.
My not at all humble opinion is that Christian music ought to be breaking down genre walls rather than just preaching to the choir.
Every kind of music is facing this same dilemma.
hey there guys...i got you on this...i got offered a deal that would have left my kids kids owing money to a record company and a producer that i didn't even want to work with...i was talking to the Big Money Guys in new york from small town canada...i told him to suck an egg if he wanted my blood..he told me i would never get a record deal anywhere (he even yelled at me!)....fortunately he was right and now i make music i care about for people who want to listen to it.....really..the whole radio thing is almost a non entity for me and most of the people i know...we don't listen to radio because it sucks...some jazz, CBC has good radio, independent stations and one station in bellingham washington that plays good tunes...what sells me records are word of mouth, internet radio. when i think about the artists i listen to and respect...they aren't even on the radio..when was the last time you heard tom waits on the radio, john hiatt, hell even van morrison, ron sexsmith, los lobos or anyone who has something to offer..... bravo to the business man behind nsync, brittany, and every other pretty young 15 year old that looks legal to the masses....to comment on an industry like the music business is like trying to understand the ethics of oil companies and the like that rape and pillage the enviroment...maybe all the good musicians just aren't having it with the record and radio companies....tired of being abused and absorbed.... daw and the internet are the tools that i think will take the musician out of the hands of the mass marketers and back to themselves...of course you'll need an mba to do the math....but you can't stop the process...tis the season mark
i'm up for it, i am recording a straight acoustic solo record in an 18 century church over the holidays with some avalons, rode ntk, akg 414. groove tube tube mic and my digi 001, i'll put that on the block for this forum...if anyone has any ideas about recording techniques for solo vocal guitar with this gear feel free to throw it at me....after it's done i'll put it up if you want to vote on it's merits...all original stuff....this will be my calling card to an industry that has forgotten that male vocalist singer songwriters even exist.... that loud is not better and that what is important is the soul of the damm thing....not the t*t*....i want it to be huge sounding.....i'm with you bill et al....mark
I hope it's not too late to chime in.
Well, for a starting producer/hobby musician/composer and my young age i'm maybe not that experienced like you "pro's" but at the moment i'm just a "little" disappointed.
As far as I had assumed you have "that" professionalism, I feel like there is a lot of bitterness out there.
Now I would like to give you my little point of view as a part of the younger generation.
Maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I could hear in all the previous postings the most members at RO are very into rock and acoustic music (which both aren't bad ;-)). I would like to ask you something: If you go back in the days when you where in the age of about 20 years did your parents liked your music or where they like this is the worst thing i've ever heard.
Relating to why they're signed, but suck.
It's because they have fans. Beside the fact that the music industry plays a big role in the success of Britney's and Christina's, it's matter of fact that if nobody would buy them, they would not sell. And my personal experience was that i've never seen anybody from a label standing in a music shop threatening customers to buy this or that CD.
I personally don't like those music either, but I like Hip Hop, them Dre's, them Timbaland's and them Eminem's. Even so I accept the Britney's and Christina's, because they have fan's who like them, otherwise they wouldn't be around.
And I would beware judging some other people just for their taste.
Otherwise we should burn all of Picasso's work because he couldn't draw the right way.
I think the musical aim of those acts is to entertain the very young generations, and I think that's nothing bad.
I wouldn't force a ten year old to read shakespeare just because "that was good literature".
And my personal opinion in my case of musical taste is that Hip Hop is a very interesting form of music. Yes there's also a lot of crap outthere but there are almost as many good albums outthere.
It's only my decision which one i'm going to buy.
And to reply what Bill Roberts said before:
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Now you have "beat doctors" make 120 grand a track for something my Dog could punch up on an SR16 in 10 mins if I laided it on the floor and had her walk over it..
I need to win the lotto. Then maybe I will "get it"
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Maybe you should combine both, then you would kill two birds with one stone.
I think if it's that easy everyone would make it that way.
Like the DAW thing, just because it's there, that doesn't mean that everybody is "able" to make music.
I personally think that if you would take a serious listen to the songs and tracks of Timbaland you would see that the most of his work is very creative. And for the most of the time I'm hearing things that I've never heard before in a particular context.
And that's the next point. I'm always hearing today music is just only about sounds.
Really? What is the difference between a very special sound of a special guitar which no one can afford and a special cool synth sound tweaked in the computer. I'm really sure no one of you would blame Bob Moog for starting this progression.
And I think that If you compare that to your personal musical experience, how creative is it to use chords, discovered before the most Bands you'r lovin' started to make music.
And to use chord sequences that where used before by many other musicians in many other songs.
How creative is that?
I think that's why the youth nowadays is so into sounds, because it gives them the chance to explore new musical grounds.
And If you would really take a serious listen to nowadays Hip Hop music, you would see that there's is a real concern about good quality music.
Try to be open-minded and take a serious listen to the new Jay-Z album "Blueprint 2" or the "Eminem Show" the next time you're in music shop. And then tell how much of that music is sequenced. I think there is a great demand on good musicians and a lot of appreciation.
As for Hip Hop it started with samples, but not because the youth was lazy. No, it was because the black youth in the ghetto's wanted to be able to make the same cool music like their idols.
(You know, James Brown, Parliament Funk, Motown, etc.) But they just didn't have the money to buy instruments. They only had the turntable's and vinyl's from their parents and maybe their own.
So they started to do block parties and then the most of the discovering happened by accident (like scratching, looping).
But with the possibilities of today, big money, big studio, big musicians, there is a progression to do beats and music of their own. And that's why Hip Hop today is more appealing to me then ever before.
And with the modern technology, like DAW's and MIDI, I'm now able to do music of my own.
Is that a bad thing? I hope not, because I was never able to own an instrument of my own or to learn how to play one just because my mum didn't have the money when I was young. And you can bet I wanted to learn one. But lessons are expensive.
Yes, there are poor people out there, you may not believe it.
I've never had the opportunity to achieve perfect skills on the piano and guitar, but is this a reason to exclude me from the musical world.
As a matter of fact I'm learning everyday something about music and always try to catch up with the Pro's. Without todays technology I wouldn't had this chance, because MIDI and the internet (forums like RO) are helping to understand music and what's it all about without having to invest a big amount of money into a teacher.
It gives me the opportunity to express myself.
Isn't that what art is all about?
And who gives you the right to judge which is right and which is wrong?
That's why the most replies to the topic hurted me real bad, because I thought I finally found a really cool forum which is not about "I'm better than you and you don't know nothing." thing.
Sometimes there is an elitist thinking in here, for sure!
"Yeah, you can ask question about technical stuff, but as far as the musical taste is concerned. There's only one way, mine!"
I think in an professional enviroment like yours an open-mind is one of the fundamentals. How can you tell me that you're learning everyday of your own if your not open to new things.
Both technical and musical.
So at the end there's only left to say that I don't want to offend nobody in this forum because I like too much!
But pleaseeee, FREE YOUR MIND, THE REST WILL FOLLOW.
They main reason why I think a person sucks in this business is when somebody is pretending something he isn't, or makes music that he doesn't stand fully behind.
And that's why there are so many "artist's" outthere which you would describe as "they suck" because the label is in charge of everything and they and the so called artist do it mainly for the money, not for the passion for music.
Just my 2 euro-cents.
;-)
Did not mean to dissapoint or hurt you feelings!
I have done a TON of rap. If you look at the rest of the sentence that you took the quote from, you will see a positive message in it too! You decided to take the negative part and post it.
I had a caddy behind me at the drive up today and I swear the beats I heard were very simple and really, could have been produced by me in about 10 mins. It was on the radio...so I know it is packing paper.
You know who precise is? Producer for Mystikal? We worked together and he admits (and all the money he made) that if you are vibing, you can put a track together in 5 mins..I saw him do it. It is talent.
If I could get past the rude lyrics that many American rappers use and hear the good tracks that are out there, that would be cool but I simply cannot take a lot of negative counterculture lyrics speaking of raping and killing and doing hard drugs and shooting cops and all that stuff. It is an abomination even if it is the truth in the inner city. I feel those kind of lyrics breeds contempt for the folks that listen to them and may even contribute to forms of delinquency. Pink floyd, the stones, led zep. or any of my generations music never spoke of mass murder, mayhelm, carnage or promoting lower forms of the human condition. Never any words of taking out cops because they steped on my crops and so forth. Just because some people Choose to live it does not make it the best way to live life.
I think when I hear a basic looped beat and all that kind of speak, my intrest level in the art goes to zero.
I am sure you are a fine producer and have great beats. I would love to hear them and we have the vehicle for you to post some snippits.
I have my opinion on this and it may not be what you want to hear but I refuse to open my mind to the rage the society culture and the culture that wants to make life miserable for those just trying to get by. Robbers, killers , theives and "get over on my brother" attitude.
Freedom comes with responsibility and I think running down those folks that are put in charge of order in the society is not kosher one bit.
IF a fellow is struggleing and wants out of the rat race, then write about that..not get deeper into the rat race. If I found myself "in deep" I could find a way to get out of it. Soon. First bus. It may take time but I would not be involved in it and that is for sure.
One thing that is common with ALL the rappers I worked with is that they lived the role of their lyrics and every one of them wanted a ticket out.
I worked with some damn good artist and seen the inner part of it all. It was a shame those talented folks could not see greener pastures. I can think of two of the best that are dead and gone because of it and one more that was a gospel artist in the wrong place at da wrong time and was blown away sencelessly by a crack head wanting to steal his navigator. He laid on a curb with a slug in the dome and the Nav. was found 2 miles away. His name was Ramond Myles. 2Pac and Biggie are the others.
Just stupid and insane.
By definition, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. On this Martin Luther King day, I hope that his beacon can shine the light ever brighter for a society that *abandons* hate and strives to reach equlity for all peoples. That is what I practice. It is the messages, not the sound.
Sorry, we all have our opinions.
Some of my thoughts, and it’s not gospel, just an opinion. This is a long winded one so hang on…. :D
First, Willi, the whole premise of the thread “Why in the hell are they signed and I’m not? They suck!” is bitter, what did you expect? You walked into this with your eyes open. No room for hurt feelings their IMO.
Second and again an opinion. Rap is not music. Except if musicians play on it (original tracks). If it is sampled and loops it is not music. Music is something that is played by musicians. I’m not saying it isn’t an art form, it is. But what it is, is assembly art. It is no more music, than a kid clipping pictures from a magazine and pasting them onto a piece of paper, is a painter.
Third, my parents liked the Beatles and Bob Dylan. We also grooved to Melvin Van Peebles together (in the 60’s). It was good music / poetry and they knew it. My Mom didn’t much care for the Monkees. Now I can understand why.
Forth, Brittany and Christina are signed because they both have great racks and they look great on the teevee.
Fifth, you said “the DAW thing, just because it's there, that doesn't mean that everybody is "able" to make music.” Well, almost anybody can and it makes me puke! The level of talent required to be in the business has plummeted in the past 10 years. All because of cut and paste, looping and pitch and time correction.
Sixth, the use of chords created before your parents were born … there really isn’t much on the planet that is original thought or people that are having original ideas ... except perhaps quantum mechanics and guys like Steven Hawking.
Seventh the idea that rap / hip hop started because the ghetto kids were disadvantaged and had no means to buy instruments is ludicrous. I lived (actually grew up ) in Oakland CA and believe me, the disadvantaged kids that wanted instruments got them one way or another. The same way they can get $150 sneakers. If this argument held any truth there would have been no Louis Armstrong or Count Bassie or Charlie Parker or Dizzy Gillespie or … well you know. The reason they came up with it was a bunch of no talents figured out they could get girls and impress their friends and maybe even find a way to the “large life”. My parents wern't rich, I went to school in old clothes and holes in my shoes. But I still learned music, without the benefit of lessons. Lots of the musicians from the UK like the Beatles and Eric Clapton etc all came up disadvantaged. It didn’t stop them from becoming world class musicians.
Finally, yes … a person who is not a musician should be “excluded” from the ranks of musicians. This is not elitism but rather just a job description. Saying different is tantamount to saying a person who hasn’t studied medicine should be a doctor. BTW I understand the difference between Euro and American RAP. If you lived here in the States you would understand why so many of us have a negative opinion of rap and rappers. It is a degrading form of entertainment aimed at the most base instincts of humans. I personally would prefer to see a more uplifting form of entertainment taking all the space in the airwaves and on the teevee.
Most important, all this aside, please don’t take this all as you’re not being wanted here. That is not the case. I personally have enjoyed our exchanges and I believe you have a lot to offer to RO. Peace out …. Fats
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Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK, and PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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Ok I know the topic isn't about politeness and nice words.
But my intention was only to bring up my point of view, because i've noticed (my subjective notice) that it seems like there's the attitude that nothing what's outthere (like Billboard) is worth listening to.
I also didn't wanted to get some pity, or something like that.
to Bill Roberts:
Sorry for that one, but it sounded to me like "It's sooooo easy!" (No talent involved).
I must admit that not everything that glistens is actually gold. There are many Rappers who are just talking crap and nonsense (too much ego involved). But I think that it's also talent and good music (i still call it music, but that's just my opinion) outthere.
We don't have same sort of ghettos overhere like in US. It's actually way much safer to live here and I'm thankful for that, but in my enviroment I've also experienced crime, drugs, weapons. And as an half-foreigner and a minority living in germany I've also experienced that social exclusion. I think music is an adequate medium to denounce the social grievances. And that's why sometimes the lyrics aren't that nice and the speech is from where they came from, the street.
You can't except that after they've started to be successful to hear them rappin' in polite Oxford English, I guess that would be fake.
But at one thing I'm absolutely sharing your point of view. Music shouldn't be a medium for glorification of violence and crime. I've done some mistakes of my own in my youth, but I'm not proud of that. And they shouldn't be either. If that's all they're able to achieve in their lives, to talk about crap and do crap, then I feel very pity for them.
The example of the 5 to 10 min. workflow.
I can totally relate to that, because sometimes it just floooows. And I don't think it's bad because it just took a short amount of time to achieve some good results. I think nobody would argue if Hendrix did a cool riff in just about five minutes. Is it that more "art" just because he picks strings and I just push buttons? It's just a different kind of interface.
It depends on who is behind the conrols.
I don't like the dull beats with a cheap sample either, but that's why I want to be in the game. That's what drives me, I think I can do it better.
So it's all up to me to make it or not.
(by the way, I'm always preferring a good musician rather than a sequenced track, but sometimes the Song requires it)
to Cedar Flat Fats:
"Rap is not music..... But what it is, is assembly art. It is no more music, than a kid clipping pictures from a magazine and pasting them onto a piece of paper, is a painter."
I can't share your point of view on that one.
Yes, somebody who just cuts and pastes isn't a musician, but the thing on the wall which wasn't painted but pasted together you're still going to call it a "picture".
That's why Rap/HipHop "is" music like any other genre. The Samples used in this genre of music are always played by "real" musicians.
Or would you claim that all the classic sample sources like James Brown and all the 70's Funk wasn't music?
Because of the progressions we've been through 'til now, it's true that it has become alot easier to achieve "some" results without any knowledge of the subject. But I don't think it's possible to get into the charts or to get any other form of recognition with a sellable product without no knowledge and talent(in most cases - exceptions are proving the rule). So the DAW don't protect you from learning and training your brain or fingers or whatever you need to "create" music. What changed isn't the amount of talent, it's the use of the available tools. It's up to you how to use those tools - in creative or uncreative way.
As you mentioned that there isn't much that was a really original thought. How can you claim that the music (in general) of my generation isn't that creative and good like the music of your generation? Just curious on this one.
My description of the evolution of Rap/HipHop was a little bit superficial and universal, just to shorten the story.
As always there are many storys to tell.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but as there's no doubt that the beatles were gifted and great, I instantly would claim that they also wanted the access to the "large life" and as a musician you can also impress a lot of girls.
Never tried it?
After doing it for our own excitement, isn't it the second most important reason why we're doing music? To gain acceptance and regard for what we're doing?
I don't think it's a bad intent because the human being needs always a drive to keep us going, in every aspect of live.
We're lazy by nature. (Get the most Output from as low Input as possible)
That's why we like to use those modern gimmicks and tools. Why they invented the automation on consoles and so on. It's in our nature, always go for the easiest way. And if a drum machine will do the job, why hiring a drummer? Otherwise there will sometimes be a need for "that feeling", that's the point where the specialist (musician) is required.
"Finally, yes … a person who is not a musician should be “excluded” from the ranks of musicians. This is not elitism but rather just a job description."
Sorry, but that's a very elitist opinion. Who sets the standard of your so called "job description"?
I don't know how you handle this in the US, but in Germany you have to study on a university to call yourself a doctor. Same goes for engineer and guess what, musician.
I think that's a very bad comparison except you've studied your instruments at an university, then I'm apologizing.
But if not, then who decides whom you call an "musician".
Somebody, who can read notes from the paper and can reproduce them adequate or somebody who couldn't even read a book but plays like Santana. How good do you play?
Are you in that league?
Where do you set the boundaries for acceptable skills? Do I have to be as good as "you" or as good as "Santana".
Are the people in this business which call themselves mixing/mastering "engineer" allowed to do so? Where is the technical background?
Yeah, most of them know how to turn those knobs but they don't know the mathematics behind them. That's what an "engineer" should know.
If someone would come to me and tell me he's a musician just because he knows how to switch on a synth and press a key, than I woudln't take him seriously.
But I wouldn't damn or exclude him. I know where I've started.
I'm not a very good keyboardplayer because of the lack of practice.
I've just started to do music for about 7 months ago. Maybe i'm not that experienced in comparison to you, but i'm also very passionate about what i'm doing and I'm trying to achieve a very professional level, everyday. And as for todays standards of homerecording, where the boundaries are melting more and more together, I don't know how to call myself. A produ-comp-arrange-mix-musician, all in one person. For me the most suitable description I can think of is "musician", because at the end of my artwork there's "music".
But if you know an other, better description for what I'm doing, feel free to post it.
And finally my two cents to get the "topic" going.
Again my point of view is that "they suck" - at least some of them - is because the lack of credibility.
They're faking their Bio's, Image, Lifestyle and they do the music that the label thinks will sell.
Not the music which is more appealing to their artistic attitude (If they have one).
That's why in the end it has no "soul".
But actually sometimes I think actually that some of them don't suck, against some of your opinions. I want to bring the Shania Twain example in. I "betcha" could write that cheezy line to "getcha" a deal, but why you didn't?
Because of your musical integrity?
I don't think so.
Even a cheezy song starts to get too cheezy if you're not careful. That's talent also. It's not that easy to write a song which the masses can relate to. And that is what makes hits!
I often like to listen to songs where I like the "sound" but don't give too much on the lyrics.
But I'm sure everyone who listens to music where lyrics are involved has some that are your favourites. And I bet you're not only knowing every word of the song but also can relate personally really good to the content of the song.
This is at least my experience.
The problem is that often the content is needed to carry the song, it's very baffling to have to much content.
I must admit that Bob Dylan (although he's a great artist) isn't one of my alltime favourites and if we all would hear that very heavy-content music allday, I would get bored very soon.
And I'm very curious about how it would look like if the young people in the disco would "bounce" to Bob Dylan's music? ;-)
That's why the variety of todays music is such a great thing.
And sometimes we just need that music without content, to be able to relax our brains.
I the modern society of today and all that globalization, the abbility and necessity of knowledge how much misery is existent, it's very important to have positive things around.
And not always be remindend how bad everything is, I know it by myself. Sometimes it's a big relief to do a brain-reset and just bounce a little.
I'm really curious what you think about this?
And I would like to hear some examples of whom you think sucks, because that would make the discussion more than just superficial.
Because I'm also not judging a whole genre of music just because there are some Rock'n'Roll guys who are glorifying the abuse of drugs and groupies.
Just my 2 euro-cents again.
Willi
Willi,
First I think we are going to have to agree to have differing opinions on some of this. Still no reason we can’t enjoy each others thought and ideas. I don’t have any responses for a lot of the points you made regarding my remarks because I have already stated my opinions on these and my saying anything else about them would be redundant. So I will simply reply on the things I have something to add.
First, reading back I will say that I should have said “Most” rap is not music. I don’t care much myself for blanket statements but sometimes I find myself falling into that hole.
James Brown had one of the best bands in the world. All his musicians were top notch. So yes, I would say they were musicians. But reusing these recordings only qualifies a person to be a DJ, not a musician.
To answer your question regarding the music of your generation, I wouldn’t say that all of it is not good or creative. Much of it is. I continue to support the music business by purchasing CD of new acts. By no means is my CD collection just a pile of “oldies”. I don’t think my generation has a lock on ability or talent. But the fact is there are more people of your generation reaching back and buying records and CDs from the 60’s and 70’s than there are people of my generation rushing to Tower to buy the latest releases. Perhaps this is because your generation is more open minded or perhaps it is because the music of my generation is better. I leave that to you to decide.
You said “What changed isn't the amount of talent, it's the use of the available tools. It's up to you how to use those tools - in creative or uncreative way.” My answer to that is the focus of “talent” in much of the music business has shifted from how good you sing or play or write to how good you look, move and dance. This is a fact IMO. In the 50’s and 60’s if you couldn’t really perform, it was cost prohibitive to try to record you. It simply cost too much to try to fix it in most cases. The cheapest way to make a recording was to go out and book the best musicians possible. This contributed to the high level of quality in those recordings. The same is not true today. The most important thing now is ones appearance. All the other stuff can be manipulated in computerland so image takes precedence. I blame-a MTV!
Regarding original thought, I don’t really think that there was that much of that in the 50’s 60’s 70’s either, they were pushing boundaries, social and political. But it was still the same 12 notes, the same time signatures etc. Elvis, Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Jeff Beck, James Brown, Motown were all borrowing /ripping off the old delta blues cats. I had the pleasure of recording delta folk / Bluesman, Brownie McGhee several months before he passed. That was some original playing. Those guys wrote the book and we all are still emulating it. “The blues had a baby and they called it rock and roll!”
On to large life, yes we all mostly aspire to live the large life and there’s nothing wrong with wanting to better ones self. I was just pointing out, that’s what they (block party youth) were after. Not some burning motivation to make music.
I have to stand by my comment … “a person who is not a musician should be excluded from the ranks of musicians. This is not elitism but rather just a job description.” And frankly I don’t see how a person could argue with that point of view. I don’t call myself an engineer, I don’t have an engineering degree, I call myself a recordist. I know how to and practice the art of recording. I am a musician. I know how to and practice playing an instrument. Anyone who doesn’t know how to play an instrument is not a musician. Look the word up in the dictionary. Any one who wants to be a musician is not excluded by some elite group. All they have to do to join is learn how to play an instrument. It’s not a group of elitists keeping them from the ranks but rather their own inabilities.
As far as the boundaries being set as to what level of talent is acceptable, I say if a person is feeling like they are not up to par when they jam, play, perform or record with other accomplished players, then that is the true measure. It is all up to the individual to make that judgment. I on the other hand will make a judgment call if I am producing a recording and I need to make a call for players. I will call who I think can fit the piece best.
Last, the Shania Twain thing … I can guarantee you if she didn’t look good in a skin tight outfit, standing there thrusting her hips back and forth like she’s in the middle of doing the horizontal hula, that song wouldn’t get the play it does. Her whole career is based on her looks. If she looked like a mud fence, it wouldn’t matter what she sounded like or how good the song or the production was. I understand this. At my point in life I would never attempt to secure a record deal for myself. I am too fat, too old and damnit, I’m just not as cute as I used to be. (my daily affirmation :D )Fats
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Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,
Genelec, Hafler, KRK, and PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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And further more, have you heard the new Shania Twain CD? A bazillion overproduced songs all in the same key because she has no range, but what a nice cover shot. I predict double platinum.
But hey, Herb Alpert use to do that. Remember the girl with the shaving cream all over her?
Have I brought this thread to a new low? :p
Nice to be back in RO world. Just reclaimed my computer from a client's house where we did some recording. Polka mass. Hymmns on an accordion and saxophone. Good stuff.
This thread is becoming a monster. Thought I'd jump in at this point with my (very cheap) two cents.
My opinions and views are dead on with Fats' on this. I hold a 4 year degree in music (classical guitar) from a pretty darn good school. I hardly ever play my guitars these days. Why? Because I realized that I had a creative deficiency in doing so. I did the world of musicianship a disservice by continuing to try to identify myself with the ranks. My abilities are far greater in documenting music through recording and offering my opinions when asked. Those who ARE NOT musicians and CANNOT play an instrument or sing on pitch CANNOT be considered in any way to be musicians. And while I do view that as a matter of job description, I have no problem if you want to call me elitist. I must admit I have a pretty elitist attitude when it comes to musicianship.
While in school, one required class was 20th Century Harmony, taught by our composer in residence. He adamantly and repeatedly emphasized his view (and I have bought into it) that music is a language unto itself. It involves, in and of itself, NOTHING ELSE. It exists as its own entity. This means that emotion is not inherently present in music. It is perceived through the listener's interpretations of the language (but I guess that's another point entirely). To that end, I have always taken the view of music as a language one step further, making the analogy that we label and view those who can communicate verbally but cannot read or write as "illiterate" and we then treat illiteracy as a deficiency. I leave you to read into that what you will about my view of those who use the language of music without being able to read a score. Elitist? Probably. Without base? Not at all.
Now don't get me wrong. I love my rock and roll just as much as the next guy. I just know where it fits into the scheme of the world of "music".
To say that people wouldn't buy an album by any particular "artist" without being a fan is not at all off base. But that statment ignores the problem that exists within the music industry these days. One of my favorite bands is making a pretty big ripple these days, I think largely in part because the masses are STARVING for something new and fresh. Wilco's latest release was dropped at the last minute by their major label out of fear of it not being commercially viable (wish I could remember the label, wish I could be more detailed with the story). So the boys got themselves picked up by Nonesuch, only to release their (Wilco's) largest commercial success to date. What a mistake on the big boys' part. There's a market for quality music out there. It's the damn coat and ties making the calls that are scewing the market out of opportunities to hear good stuff, and screwing the quality musicians out of being heard. That's a simplistic way of putting it, I know.
Just a rambling post, really. I do not mean to be deconstructive in this debate, but to suggest that un-abled "musicians" should be allowed to participate within the ranks of musicianship only illustrates the point of this whole thread and exascerbates (sp?) the problem this thread addresses.
I just picked up an Alesis SR-16, and a rhyming dictionary. I've got lots of bass loops too. I'm starting the recording today, so the 16 cut CD should be finished by Friday at the latest. Oh, rap takes talent alrght, I'm just really fast.
Of course the sarcasm may have been a bit over the top, but then again - it was intended to be. Maybe I'm just too old school, but I don't see how the same "ta, boom, boom, cha" beat set to different lyrics/words/insults, whatever, can be described as an artform. Is the genre important in our society? You bet. It's one of those cultural things that help define us as a nation. Does that mean I have to like, or respect it? Hell no. I've taken a lot of crap over the years because I really enjoy country music, but so what! If you don't like it, fine. I don't care. And if I don't like rap, or hip hop - fine, who cares! And if you spend your time trying to defend that which you enjoy so much, I think you're wasting precious energy. It's like flogging a dead horse. You'll rarely change someone's opinion in such a manner.
Is all rap/hip hop crap? How would I know. What I've heard was crap, so, therefore, I don't listen to it. Should that matter to you. NO. There are plenty of other folks out there who love the stuff. . . . and hate it. To each his own. There are some things you just have to agree, to disagree upon.
This is a *great* thread.
First off, I'm not a rap fan at all. Rap has become (as DJ Shadow has said in print) one of the most conservative genres out there.
It's also important to differentiate rap and hip-hop. Whatever new b.s. rap that's getting hyped now is a totally different ball of wax than the hip-hop of Public Enemy, the Beasties, or even the newer Blackalicious.
One thing most people have to be very careful of here, is treating art (music) in this case, as an empirically definable medium. It's not, and to retain one's cred as an open-minded person, one has to be careful about passing judgement on things you already have a prejudice against (as in a "pre-judgement"). I don't understand Chinese, and I'm not going to learn it (because I just don't want or need to) but it doesn't make it absurd, stupid, or unintelligent just because I don't get it.
I'm 33, and I'm assuming that that's younger than many of the pros who've been producing for a while, here. Accidentally, I'm sure, some posters up here have sounded like their parents or grandparents dismissing rock and roll (back in the day) as dangerous to "music as a whole", and as being created by a lot of hairy drug addicts who have no talent.
That was unbecoming to people who truly dug rock music. Those were your heroes they were busting on! (Now those guys are the old guard!)
If people are creating art (leave off the business aspect, or check my other post about that) they need to be constantly monitoring the door in their mind that tends to slam shut when new/initially unpalatable things pop up. Otherwise, you become a caricature of your likes and dislikes. You start thinking small instead of big. And you get old.
The most open-minded guy I know is 76. He is the resident philosopher at my alma mater (the Maryland Institute College of Art). He has spent the better part of his adult life around college age kids. He has probably witnessed more bad art than anyone alive. But since it doesn't threaten him, he can make all kinds of really insightful observations that are very helpful to young artists. His open-mindedness also allows him to speak from very high ground: if he comments negatively on something, chances are because it really doesn't work--not because it's not his bag. This keeps him fresh, and it gets him listened to in a way that his derision would not allow.
I hafta do this too, I'm not pointing fingers.
best-
.nick
MillionValve,
Right on. Not to defend anything I've said here but to clarify ... Being from the S.F. Bay Area I have had a lot of exposure to "grass roots" Rap and Hip Hop. There is a lot of it that I like. There is a lot of it that makes me want to puke. I too (along with Styles) love country music. I think it's the white mans soul music. But there's a lot of country music that makes me want to puke too. (Garth Brooks) Same thing with rock 'n roll. Probably the only music I have ever heard that I love all of it was "The Beatles" (I consider Beatles music as its own genre). Anyway, being in Oakland and the surrounding area, I worked on and recorded more Rap and Hip Hop than an Oakland cop can shake a nightstick at. I don't hate it by any means. I just don't think its music in most cases. Like I said in the previous post, if there are no musicians playing on it (original tracks, not samples and loops) it's not music, its assembly art with poetry. Fats
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Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,
Genelec, Hafler, KRK, and PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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But there's a lot of country music that makes me want to puke too. (Garth Brooks)
God Bless you, Fats! I thought I was the only fan alive who doesn't care for the guy. A little affirmation that maybe I still have a handle on what country should and shouldn't be. Oh, crap! I just expressed an opinion, didn't I! Sorry for being so "narrow minded." ;)
Styles,
Yeah I'm an old time country fan . I like the new guys that are carrying the torch also. In the beginning, there was Hank Sr. and Lefty Frezzel ...and it was good. he he George Jones, Tammy Wynette, MERLE! …. New guys, Alan Jackson, Brad Paisley, Vince Gill, Dwight Yoakum, (Pete Anderson is awesome!) Dixie Chicks! (Natalie rocks my world waaaaay more that Shania Twain! Check out "Long Time Gone!" It smokes "I'm Gonna Getcha!" IMO) I think the term is "traditional country". I was always attracted to the genre but the real turning point was when I met my wife. She is distantly related to the both the Lewis and Mattox Families, Jerry Lee, Everlys, Mattox Brothers and Sister Rose and one of her Uncles by marriage is a guy named Jack Trent. Jack played piano for Bob Wills, Buck Owens, Ferlin Husky, Merle Haggard, Jim Reeves and Patsy Cline to name a few and did a lot of Nashville sessions for Owen Bradley in the 50’s and early 60’s. I have video footage of Jack playing for Patsy Cline on an old WSM broadcast. He invented the hammer on technique that Floyd Crammer became famous for. I started playing country in a small band with Jack doing Moose, Elks and Eagles Lodges in Oregon. It was a great education. I wondered if he really did all the things he said he did although I kept my doubts to myself. Then one day Jack calls me up on the phone and says, "Merle is playing at the Fairgrounds today. Let's go over there and I'll introduce you to him." We went to the fairgrounds and Jack says to me "Wait here a minute." He walked right through the security line and knocked on the door of the bus. It opens and someone says, "Jack!, good to see you, come on in!" We got on the bus, I met Merle, Fuzzy Owen, Lewis Talley, Bonnie Owens, Roy Nichols, Norm Hammlet and the rest of the band.(For the unaware, this is tantamount to meeting The Beatles.) We stayed on the bus for a couple of hours, my wife got to play Merles Tele, and we all sat around until it was time for the show. Of course this was a real high point for me and I'll never forget it. Needless to say, I was hooked on country music from that day on! .... Just a short story. ... Fats
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Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK, and PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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Fats, you lucky dog. Hey, what was Merle drinkin that day?
Saw George Jones a couple of years ago. Best singer I've ever seen. (of course I was sneakin down the elevator to my car for some refreshments)
It was funny. Near the end of the show, all these kids dressed up in Goth style clothes got up and started dancin to White Lightening, puttin flowers on the stage and stuff. They had been waiting all night for that song. I heard it took George 26 takes to get that song because he was so wasted! Johnny Cash and Nancy Sinatra have a young cult following in SF also.
Hank Thompson. Steve Earle. Where's my ice chest, my ghetto blaster and my lawn chair? I can't wait for summer.
Hey, thats one thing good that came from rap, the ghetto blaster!
Of couse this post is off the topic. But it's my birthday today so I can say whatever the .... I want!
Hey, I just thought of another genre that we have completly forgot to rag on: House Music. You know, that rave crap. Which is worse? Rap or House?
I'll drink to that!
Mastering as we speak with a new amp (old one really) and it is kick ass....but, 150/side is not enough when you are use to 500/side. Clip lights warn you before the fun sets in (damnit)
BTW, the big amp was a review sample and I cannot afford it now (3750) so off it goes. and the review sample was 200X5 (surround) and the 150/2 is my old ass standard and it is damn great...but I miss the extra power. (you could strap the amp to 600/2)
Party on my broddah!
There's the New Kids On the Block, and then there's The Old Farts Down the Street! Hey, re read my last post on page 3. I added some stuff.
Hey Fats, do remember the Reverand Gene Scott? He was that TV evangelist on UHF who use to smoke cigars and stay up 24/7 ? I saw Merle do a couple of songs on that show! I guess there buds! Made him play the same song twice.
Oh you mean CAPTAIN CRANK! LOL, I had forgot about him! LM(fat)AO! What a character that guy was. He was into space aliens before the Railiens!!!
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Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK, and PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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Captain Crank! LOL! Yeah thats the guy. Can you believe he had a degree from Stanford?
Anywho, to repeat, which sucks the most, Rap or House music.?
BTW, can you believe this crap about Townsend? The guy gives us years of great music and performances, and some s..t head has to make an example out of him. It really pisses me off. Now, all that people will say is "Townsend, oh you mean the pedifile?" This is the same crap that happened to the Stones and the Beatles in the 60's. It was the same guy trying to make a name for himself by setting up the big names. I'd like to strangle the guy behind this.
I'm happy again. I just got an email informing me I won 50 Neve P&G faders off of eBay for twenty bucks! What do those things go for anyway? I was the only bidder. Sometimes you get lucky. Happy Birthday to me!
Hey, Hilary Rosen just resigned. Open season on MP3's again!
Hi folks, I just had to chime in on this one. What a great thread! Forgive me if I'm rehashing old information (I pretty much scanned through the posts, so it might have been alluded to already).
I think the biggest problem facing the music business is not the musicians, producers, engineers, A&R guys, or the labels. . . it's the idiots who buy the crap! I'm serious, how can you expect someone to recognize talent, or something more intricate than a cliche melody, when the listener thinks that ebonics is a viable language, or that his mullet is still the "in" hair style? (Apoligies to anyone who may still have a mullet - it looks good on you).
You can't blame the guys who make money off the crap people listen to. They're selling what people are buying, and most of that is polished turds. "Man, that song smells like shit, but boy, look at that shine!" I'm so tired of songwriters making something rhyme just because "it's supposed to rhyme." What a crock! Just like the Shania Twain inference of "time, mind, spit, shit, blow, hoe. . . " it's really beginning to get very old. I'm sad to say that I don't even listen to music on the radio anymore. If I'm in my car I'm listening to talk (Now there's an intelligent audience. Especially those who call in and voice their opinions.) - for Christ's sake, I've become my father!
Maybe the private studio, combined with the internet, will bring about the revolution so many of you have spoken of. I can't wait until some of the lard ass record execs start feeling the sting of their sales going elsewhere. But, until the record buying public realizes a new acceptance of something extraordinary, we, as the revolutionaries, will have to invent our own consumers to keep money in our pockets.