Cant have an opinion on something I never spent time with however....I can say this. If I had $18K-$24K to spend on a console I would spend ALOT of time listening and shopping around. theres alot out there in that price range if your open to analog boards as well.

Steve

I agree with Scenaria. For $20K, you could get a nice used analog console with the way the market is right now. Of course it wouldn't have many of the features of the Sony, but it is already 32 bit/192 K ready...and conversion is only getting better. If depreciation is not an issue, that in itself is another issue entirely.

I looked into all of the analog mixing consoles in that range(48+ channels with automation), and nothing serious came close. Anything with these requirements analog wise was 3 times the price. I mix around 4-5 songs a week(different styles) and I need a mixing board that can go back and forth real easily. Also when I have to do a recall, I prefer something that I can recall easily(except for the analog outboard gear which is still recalled the old fashioned way, by hand). Lastly, I've started to do some surround mixing and the Sony is all ready setup for it.

sounds like you have answered your own question then :) I guess theres alot of determining factors....

Let me give you an example of a decent board out there, a buddy of mine is selling his Amek 5.1 desk, yes.....its 5.1 capable, has moving faders and recall. Granted you still have to "turn" the knob for your recall so it would still be time consuming but on the other hand....if I remember correctly he was looking for something like $25.2k on it which with negotiations would probably come down...

Too bad there isnt more alternatives in digital boards in that price range....

dont forget that depreciation factor though...MAN with equipment today we take BIG losses on new purchases.

best of luck

Hi Scenaria, thanks for the suggestions. Is your friend's Amek a Media 5.1? Cause I considered it but again, its a $55,000 investment. Right now as you stated with the depreciation of equipment, two years from now I'll be happy if I get half for it if that. I also know that the Sony is a digital piece of equipment, which means in two years it might be worth nothing. I have noticed that our profesional community has embraced it well, which means that it will get a lot of support. Also from time to time I do some free lancing mixing gigs, so if the Sony becomes some kind of defacto standard, I'll have a leg up on my contemporaries. Again thanks. How are you enjoying the 9098? I got to use the ones' up here on the East Coast(Big blue Meenie and the Wu Tangs'board). Really nice!!!

i have been looking at the sony board for a while now but its just too immature for the $$$, especially when a LOT lower costing boards have better OS and everything else than one costing 5 times as much... not to mention i would mack the i/o totally out from the get go.

im seriously considering a ProControl/PT system. i wish PT had better interfacing.

I was at the DMX-R100 forum today and it seems a lot of the earlier issues are being resolved in version 2.0. Also now with the new MADI card option, you can have up to 48 channels of digi I/O from a Pro Tools system with a converter(thank God no more 888s). With all of its routing options, if I end up getting it I might have to start saving up for another(96 channels at mixdown). Cool!!!

so would you be running this with PT? if so, may i ask why not just consider a ProControl?

Originally posted by THETHRILLFACTOR:
I was at the DMX-R100 forum today and it seems a lot of the earlier issues are being resolved in version 2.0. Also now with the new MADI card option, you can have up to 48 channels of digi I/O from a Pro Tools system with a converter(thank God no more 888s). With all of its routing options, if I end up getting it I might have to start saving up for another(96 channels at mixdown). Cool!!!

I have two DMX R-100 in my studio and I am very happy with the consoles. Granted it has a few Version 1.0 quirks, but as you mentioned, a lot of those are being addressed in V 2.0. There will be no off-line automation editing, as far as I know, but you can still do that in PT. The console sounds really good and has great mike pres and converters. I don't know if it was the change from 16 to 24 bit, but when I upgraded the studio from Yamaha 02Rs and DA-88s to the Sonys everything opened up, depthwise. I think at a street price of $ 17,500 (no cards) and with the upcoming changes and MADI card the DMX is a good investment.

Alpha, too bad I missed you at NAMM (had to go to FL for a few days), I would have loved to meet you in person. If you're ever in this area (Nashville) drop me a line (mwagener@home.com). I'd love to get som DP tips from you.

Michael Wagener

michael,
so you went for HOT to HOTTER. whew, i left a day early just to get back to my cool living. it would of been fun to get up though. nashville is a strange town but i did catch a KILLER band while i was there, just a bunch of KIDS who could rock damn hard [i KNEW there had to be something other than country in the town]. couldnt of been 20yo but they were totally pro.

Originally posted by alphajerk:
michael,
so you went for HOT to HOTTER. whew, i left a day early just to get back to my cool living. it would of been fun to get up though. nashville is a strange town but i did catch a KILLER band while i was there, just a bunch of KIDS who could rock damn hard [i KNEW there had to be something other than country in the town]. couldnt of been 20yo but they were totally pro.

Yeah, it does get pretty hot here in the summer, not as hot a Florida, though. One of my bands had their CD release party, so I had to attend. They played a fully packed club in Ft Lauderdale, talking about HOT. But they kicked ass anyway.
There is actually a cool rockscene here in Nashville, but everybody always only sees the country stuff, because rock does not get signed out of Nashville, have to go to NYC or LA for that. But sofar I successfully stayed away from Country, luckily still enough rock clients coming through my door ;) . What was the name of the band you saw?

Sorry, THETHRILLFACTOR to get off topic.

Michael Wagener

Hi Alpha,

Sorry I've been in the studio mixng two different albums(one from India, the second African). The reason I would not consider a Pro Control is because I have a huge outboard collection(Compressors,Eq's and effects) and I need to be able to go in and out easily. Also I get a better sound this way than the 2-bus Pro Tools "thing". Also this is the way I am use to working on a physical surface(I know the Pro Control is a physical surface but in my mind it is still that software thing). I've mixed on different Digital consoles in the past(Oxford,Axiom MT,Capricorn and Sountracs DPC) and I always got a better sound this way than doing it just in Pro Tools. Also if you move the faders in Pro Tools away from unity it changes the sound(even when working offline I try to minimize my fader movements as much as I can). And lastly this is the dumbest reason of all, but a physical board to clients still looks more professional than a Pro Control. In my case it doesn't matter(is how my mixes sound), but once in a while that trust issue comes up. One thing I noticed about some friends Pro Control surfaces, is that after a while they start to look a little beat up.

Hi Michael,

What do you think about the D/A's on the Sony?(that is if you have the 8 output card). Also how do you deal with the latency issues going in and out of the board(auxes, analog multi sends)and coming back. I've been doing a lot of research into this area, I know that the Oxford has the software that figures it out(I've never tried the software to see how well it works), and I noticed that the inserts are before the A/D(to minimize the latency issues), this is the main issue I am mullimg over(also how to manage the latency on a Madi card going in and out of Pro Tools with a Euphonix 727). Thanks for the replies. If I can some how work around these issue, I like you maybe getting two of them.

The"Thrill"Factor.

I have 4 AES cards in each board, three of which (24 tracks each) are hardwired to the Euphonix 727 / R-1, sorry no D/A card. The fourth card is on a ZySys 64x64 digital patchbay to connect ot any digital gear in the studio and to cascade the two boards. I don't have any problems with latency during tracking/dubbing. There ARE latency issues during mixdown, when I send a mix of some of the drums out to a FATSO to mix it back in with the original, for instance. There was a thread about this on the DMXuserforum. I'll try to find it and post the link. It gets rather complicated and having two consoles (more inputs) does help quite a bit in this case. On reverb sends it's not as much of an issue as long as you keep the original signal out of there (rev return only)

Don't know about the MADI/727/PT yet. Have to wait until it comes out (can't wait).

Here is the link:
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Can't the latency be compensated for inside the Sony with some sort of timing delay?

Originally posted by atlasproaudio:
Can't the latency be compensated for inside the Sony with some sort of timing delay?

Nathan

yes it can. There is a delay function on each channel, down to sample resolution. But when you send via the aux buses, the sinal is coming from a source after the individual channel delay and any further delay on that channel would also delay the send to the auxes. So, in essence you have to have your track(s) showing up on the board twice, and you are delaying the channel sending to the program bus and sending the undelayed channel to the auxes only. It takes up a lot of channels, but it works. I assume that problem excists with any digital console/DAW. The 02R had the same problem, only the delay was longer.

I guess another way would be to delay everything going to the PGM bus except for the analog returns, have to play with that one.

from what the sony rep told me, there is a 2.5ms delay each way going in and out so you would delay all tracks by 5ms except the analog outboard stuff. tracks such as a synth or so forth that originate "outside" should be delayed by 2.5ms. be aware that the board is very limited on how much you can send out [8 channels on the 4th card + 4 analog aux sends]... getting back in isnt as much of a problem as you have 24 DI's on the first layer to work with... there are just a lot of weird things about that board. i was hoping to get one but right now im just not sure about it.

thrillfactor, what is up with PT for such an expensive program? in DP, i can lower the volume on one of two identical tracks, send it to two channels of an analog board, match level volumes and flip phase with total cancellation [in other words, no degradation] but i have heard about the wear factor... the f'ed up thing about it all is that any of these software programs are FAR superior with how the automation can be done than ANY board. its really a shame no one will put together a system that would essentially be like PT with a procontrol but built more like the sony [or soundtracs, euphonix, et al]... if that makes sense. graphical editing of automation with the waveform visible behind it is a real time saver. screw archaic mix stems and screw sony's A/B undo buffer.

i wouldnt let the software thing hang you up any... the sony board [even the oxford] is all software as well, dont let the dedicated dsp fool you otherwise.

another thing, correct me if im wrong, but you can only have 24 digital channels in. i dont know about you but i go above 24 pretty consistantly... i take that back, i think you can have 32 BUT you like your 8 analog outputs by having that many. in other words, you are going to have to submix inside PT with level changes if your tracks exceed 24 channels OR you could go oout DACs into the ADCs on channels 1-24 on the sony but that would kinda defeat the purpose. good thing it has a midi control layer but even the rep didnt seem too enthused about its implementation. at least then you would have hands on control inside pt for your submixing.

in all seriousness, you would certainly need 2 sony's cascaded but that itself takes a slot so you lose the 8 analog outs by doing so. and i dont think you can cascade until v2.0 right?

a lot of these problems would have been dealt with if the inserts actually required a DADC instead of pre ADC on the analog lines in.

or maybe its me just all mixed up :D

Originally posted by alphajerk:
another thing, correct me if im wrong, but you can only have 24 digital channels in. i dont know about you but i go above 24 pretty consistantly... i take that back, i think you can have 32 :D

You can actually have 38 digital inputs at this time: 32 via cards 4 via aux returns and 2 via 2TR2 returns. With the MADI card you can have 48 digital in/outs on that card PLUs whatever inputs you have via the other three card slots.

In any case, I would wait buying the board(s) until V 2.0 is released (Septemebr 1st). I just read on another forum that Sony might be charging for the upgrade. :mad:

well i was talking individual channels, not including the auxes [which would most likely be used as well]

so MADI gives you 48 digi I/O... where are those going to come up on the faders? all you have access to via buttons is 1-24;25-48;masters...

charging for an OS that STILL doesnt bring it up to standards of a board 1/4th its price??? hmmm.

and i REALLY wish this board would be IT [if ya know what i mean... whats below really isnt worth it, and whats above it is WAY out of my range]

"in all seriousness, you would certainly need 2 sony's cascaded but that itself takes a slot so you lose the 8 analog outs by doing so. and i dont think you can cascade until v2.0 right?"

WOW! I can think of alot of serious mixing consoles in the $34k-$38k range :) wouldnt 2 of those DMX's be rediculous? (considering the cash involved)

Originally posted by alphajerk:

so MADI gives you 48 digi I/O... where are those going to come up on the faders? ]

They can be routed via the input routing page to a maximum of 48 faders (plus the 8 aux returns). That way all the channels can be fed by digital inputs.

Originally posted by scenaria:

WOW! I can think of alot of serious mixing consoles in the $34k-$38k range wouldnt 2 of those DMX's be rediculous? (considering the cash involved) ]

scenaria

I shopped around quite a bit before I made the decission to buy the 2 Sony boards and couldn't come up with any digital console(s) in the $40k - $60k pricerange which would give me 112 inputs with total reset and storable input patching. What did I miss?

What do you all think about the touch screen interface on the R100? I demoed it at my studio a few months ago, and the general consensus was that it was annoying.

What we experienced was a two-fold problem. First, even the guy giving the demo (who travels the country doing this) had trouble getting his finger to hit the right on-screen "button" at various times. Needless to say, so did we!

The other side of the touch screen problem was the delay that occurred once you did get it to register.

We did hear audio running through the board, and it sounded fine. But the group of us who were present that day were unable to get around the touch screen problem. For people who are used to working pretty fast, it just didn't seem it'd be possible to get to a comfortable working pace with the combination of the "button tracking" awkwardness and the delay.

Are we the only engineers who have experienced this? I read review after glowing review of the DMX-R100, and don't find any mention of these issues. Of everyone present the day of the demo, I was probably the most excited about this new console, but this simple operational issue has dragged it way down, in my opinion.

Anyone have any feedback on this?

Thanks.

Mark Patey
Flite 3 Studios
Baltimore

well the madi certainly sounds interesting and very needed. i am definately keeping my eyes on the development of this board...

as for the touch screen, i LOVED it. i found it very easy to hit the button and felt no delay problems when using it. and i was flying through the screens [i thought, maybe you work faster]

oh yeah, scenaria... please tell me what digital boards you are finding @30-40k. i would love to see what else is out there that i havent seen yet.

an analog board just will not cut it in this day in age with the way i work... i need instant recall and be able to move from project to project in minutes accurately.

ProControl Jules here!
Hi!
I dig my board, control of 64 tracks 24 bit.
I am especialy looking forward to the Sony Oxford eq plug ins (w massenburg option) arriving soon as PT plug ins...

Cascade 2 x desks? look cool?

No!

:)

Jules

Originally posted by scenaria:
[QBWOW! I can think of alot of serious mixing consoles in the $34k-$38k range :) wouldnt 2 of those DMX's be rediculous? (considering the cash involved)[/QB]

Yeah, me three...what digital consoles exist for $40Grand?
I musta blinked.... I didn't see any....

Somebody enlighten me.....

*************************************************

With regards to the question at hand... opinions on the console...

1. Shitty, shitty, web based support.
2. SONY strives hard to give the impression that they don't care.
Check it out....
they fluff and pamper the shit out of me to get me to buy the console - invite me to 550 Madison, feed me, have a fucking OXFORD in the room, Free Tshirt (wish I'd taken TWO), blase blase, yada, yada...
They have inserts in every friggin Pro Audio magazine - the 8 page glossy inserts that must cost over $50G a month (combined),
Everybody's reviewing this board with glow-in-the-dark remarks (ps, FUCK all of you reviewers that don't put your hands on the product and depend on the mfgr press machine, and specifically, for those reviewers that have written those luminescent articles on the R100 - without underscoring it's shortfalls, please go copulate yourselves too :D )
Then they (SONY? magazines?) have a new wave of reviews about the board, and they mention the MADI card, and version 2 - which is supposed to fix V1.x problems, only those same reviewers never spent any time discussing said problems, and apparently, none of them got the memo that V2 will PROBABLY not be free (at this point, it appears that some regions far east? UK? will have to cough up the cash to get the upgrade), and more important, that your work done on V1.x is worth SHIT in V2 - since the software is not backward compatible..

Hey,
apart from me bitching about their customer service and online support etc, the audio quality on this console is unparalleled - at least until June 2002 - when the next wave of digi boards are gonna drop. You can bet your left nut or tit as it applies that something better is around the corner - there always is.
I just got a Roland VS-1880 in Japan for $950USDollars. I also got one last year at about this time- I paid $2000....

So, if you're in the market TODAY, I don't know what to tell you. SONY Will feed you, court you, come to your place of music and hold your hand, they'll offer an attractive lease to help you further indebt yourself, but at the end of the day, the board was essentially conceptualized and executed (built) in Japan. SONY USA is like a fucking car dealership in the equation, no say on nothing, no design team here, no REAL engineering team state-side working with Team JAPAN, just the same shitty trickle down mentality.

oh, yeah, Alpha, even with a MADI card, unless you have a Euphonix or one of those SONY digital tape recorders to interface with, a MADI-AES/EBU converter (to strap on the front end of the R100) to say for example, connect to your HDRs will probably set you back #3-5 grand. I'm speculating the MADI card for the R100 will be $1800-2700 USD....

oh... here are a few R100 posts from the NON SONY site....

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NYC Drew