Hi friends!
I'm in the market for a console.
- Price point 15K or less.
- 16 channels or more
- At least 4 bus'
- Automation
Ive been searching the market and have found a couple contenders..
We have...
1. The Audient ASP4816
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ASP4816/
2. Allen & Heath GS-R24
http://vintageking.com/allen-heath-gs-r24-24-channel-mixer?gclid=Cj0KEQjwlv6dBRDC7rGfrvidmJgBEiQAjd3hMOVC4u-6lxsDXnyOENkGQ0H652TAtjUK3vk09k_gi7oaAt9P8P8HAQ
I'm open to a used console but would rather start new/gently used to minimize maintenance.
I plan to sale some of my outboard pre's to help fund this purchase.
Would love to know my other options that I'm not aware of and any problems with any of the contenders. Something that holds it's value is paramount.
Or do I save my pennies?
Shoot!
Comments
I know where Bos is going with his questions... LOL... but they
I know where Bos is going with his questions... LOL... but they are very valid questions.
I'm looking into my crystal ball....Ope! There it is... I see it clearly.....Wait for it... you're about to hear the benefits of the A&H Zed 16 in ....3....2.....1..... (y)
And FWIW, I'm looking at the same console. ;)
for around 2 grand you can get a really nice used Midas Venice.
for around 2 grand you can get a really nice used Midas Venice. the Venice / Verona line is very well respected and generally considered to be the best table top mixers available. try to get an earlier one that was made in Europe there are several on E Bay right now. if i were shopping for a console a Midas is what i would want.
Are you looking for a tracking mixing or summing type thing? Or
Are you looking for a tracking mixing or summing type thing? Or something for all of the above? If I were going new, for my own personal studio I'd look very seriously at this one.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATB32a/
My reasoning, again, if it had to be new, is a bunch of quality eq, plenty of clean pres/channels for almost any size basic tracking session, and a clean enough path to mix thru, and again take advantage of that much eq. I think eq is the number one thing overlook I as far as equipment goes right now, and it's very expensive to have a lot of OB eqs. It's got talkback.
W the extra money I'd get some color full pres/compressors.
Besides the atb, I'd consider the one like Kurt suggested, and also a soundcraft ghost, just cuz I've seen them a couple places. Other than that to me it's, a vintage maintenance pig/project like an amek, or a used trident.
Kurt Foster, post: 417067, member: 7836 wrote: that is not what
Kurt Foster, post: 417067, member: 7836 wrote: that is not what i was talking about. the f series is a new version built by Behringer .... (eccch!)
go to ebay ... plenty of used Midas Venice's 160's or 320's ... be sure to get one that was made before Behringer (eccch!) took over.
I had no idea whatsoever. My apologies.
No apologies necessary. I simply typed "Midas Venice" into Googl
No apologies necessary. I simply typed "Midas Venice" into Google, and Sweetwater came up first (of course)... and this is where I saw the info and pricing. ;)
I had no idea that the newer Midas consoles are being made by Behringer. I wouldn't have ever thought that anything from Midas would be. Seems a bit odd to me, that this U.K. based company, with such a rich history in console design and manufacturing - would eventually end up being made in China. o_O ??
Now, on the other side of that coin...and playing devil's advocate just for a minute....
While I do realize that Behringer doesn't exactly have the highest level of respect in pro audio circles - I'm not entirely sure that it's right to completely negate them either, just because it's made by Behringer.
Without having actually worked on one, it's hard to say. Couldn't it be remotely possible - assuming that Behringer is following the original Midas design and using original parts - that they might actually sound good?
I guess I'm asking if there is anyone here - or perhaps someone who knows someone - who has had actual hands-on experience with these newer Behringer-made Midas consoles?
It seems to me that it's pretty hard to form an opinion about it, without having had any actual experience with it.
I dunno... just thinking aloud, I guess. I've never worked on one, so I can't comment either way.
;)
d/
.
Strictly, both those two companies along with Klark Teknik, Turb
Strictly, both those two companies along with Klark Teknik, Turbosound and Bugera are independent entities under the Music Group holding company (chairman Uli Behringer). However, they share much commonality in component supply and manufacture, including most of it now taking place in the Far East. The F and U (FireWire and USB) versions of the Venice are these days exclusively Far Eastern manufactured.
Ironically, the original Midas consoles were designed and prototyped in the UK but production manufacturing was done in Germany by Dynacord, a Bosch company. The all-analog Venice and Verona from that vintage were lovely to work with.
Funny, I didn't know that Uli Behringer's middle initial was "S".
the Dynacord Midas has a great reputation and many users have s
the Dynacord Midas has a great reputation and many users have said it actually compares with large format boards like API's and even Neves. the pres sound great and the EQ is quite good.
it's insane in my opinion to go out and spend 8 k or more on a TOFT console when you can pick up a used Midas Venice 160 or 320 or even a Verona for chump change on EBay.
if i were in the market for a console for a home studio a used Dynacord Midas or Verona is what i would be looking for. a bonus is most the ones FS on Ebay come with a road case so shipping is a breeze. it's a no brainer.
I'd like to know what sort of music you intend to be mostly reco
I'd like to know what sort of music you intend to be mostly recording? As mentioned, I've had no issues or qualms with Midas Venice consoles, which I found quite nice. Though I've never owned one of my own. I've used plenty. And they are musical sounding. My utmost important criteria. Not what the specifications indicate which I really don't give a damn about. Since anything that should be considered professional, should be able to provide professional results within any professionals hand. Which is how Donny makes such great recordings with his TEAC converter thingy. He most assuredly understands gain staging. Which eludes a lot of folks. To me, gain staging is paramount.
Unfortunately some equipment that doesn't really possess the headroom that actual pro equipment possesses, frequently will indicate how to set your gain trim. Not taking into account that its output headroom capability doesn't go beyond +18. Which is where I think a lot of people get into trouble? So when you tweak according to their directives/instructions, your product ends up sounding rather compromised. Because it completely misses out on any headroom. And it's that headroom that separates the men from the toys.
Now what to do when you can't afford that kind of good stuff? That's where education and technique take precedence. That's when it is helpful to understand what the specifications actually specify. And how that impacts what your recordings will sound like, more so than the converters involved. Because this is like adjusting the color on your TV set. Some folks like their colors pastel. Some like them normal. Others like them vivid. But within each one of those descriptors, we're not talking transparency, we're talking color. Do you like black and white or do you like IMAX? I like both. Where, both are appropriate. So, I couldn't possibly own a single piece of equipment, brand, type. I might choose a slightly mushy converter with Zippy sounding microphone preamps? Or I might utilize a more articulate sounding converter with a smoother sounding microphone preamp? And what do you end up with? Virtually the same thing either way. It all comes out in the wash. Because I use springtime fresh smelling Gain laundry detergent, staging.
Wax on. Wax off.
Mx. Remy Ann David
Of course, if you wanted something that was classic analog? Too
Of course, if you wanted something that was classic analog? Too bad you didn't talk to me when I was selling my double Auditronics 501's. Mike preamps nearly indistinguishable from API's. With air core inductor equalizers that sound a bit like a Neve. With all of the 5534 IC chip factory recommended upgrades.
So that might be a console you might want to look at, if you can find one? Because I would have sold my complete double 501's for only $10,000. Which was 46 total inputs and 92 at mix down, if ya need that many. I never did but I had it. And in virtually perfect condition also having been re-Capped & new IC chip sockets and chips. It had built-in TT patch bays and Dean Jensen input and output transformers. Easy inexpensive upgrade to actual API 312 style microphone preamps, by swapping out the 5534 for the API 2520 and voilà. So that's a real god damn console! And not some desktop poof. No real difficult maintenance required. And real 100% analog made in the USA, in Memphis, Tennessee, console. Without any silkscreening to wear off, ever.
Finding those today are rare because of their intrinsic quality level. If you think that maintaining a few switches and volume controls are beyond your capabilities? What the heck are you doing in this business anyhow? And talking about old analog consoles? If you want a new analog console? Pick one.
You either want a real analog console or a Toy analog console? An upgraded PA board? Or when people actually built professional recording consoles? I mean you can even find a nice Siemens Neve, 55 series, within your budget. And then you're in the big league.
What's important to ya?
Mx. Remy Ann David
"Which is how Donny makes such great recordings with his TEAC co
"Which is how Donny makes such great recordings with his TEAC converter thingy."
Except I don't really believe that I am making great - or even good - recordings anymore.
Since treating my room, I'm now hearing things - both good and bad - that I hadn't heard before. The good things are imaging, depth, space, accuracy. The bad things are a harshness in the top end - over 2 k or so - that I'm convinced are the result of the "Teac thingy"... (Tascam 1641).
I've had my hearing tested by an audiologist (I'm good up to around 18k and then everything attenuates pretty quickly past that, but at 54 - and having played loud stages over the last 35 years, I'm not really complaining)....My mics are all good, (Neumann, AKG, EV, Shure, Sennheiser) which only leaves one thing left : I need to upgrade my pre and my converters.
Now, whether or not I look for a model that gives me both in quality, or whether I end up getting separate pieces, remains to be seen, and will be totally dependent on the money I have on hand to spend.
Right now, I'm stuck with the Thingy.
I'm gonna post one of my latest mixes later today. You'll definitely hear what I'm talking about.
it's more likely the pres in your thingy that are the problem ,
it's more likely the pres in your thingy that are the problem , not the converters. i'm not saying there isn't room for improvement in the converters but i would bet if you had a couple of really good pres that top end harsh wouldn't be so bad. just a guess.
in many cases, it's actually more the analog part of the converters that's crap out. when you get into the high end you get better analog circuitry in and out with higher headroom and i think that's what we hear as improvement more than the actual converters themselves. if you look into it, you may be surprised to find some high end converters use the same chips as some less expensive ones.
it does sound digital Donny. and it does sound as if you could u
it does sound digital Donny. and it does sound as if you could use better converters and pres but you are working wonders with what you have and that's really what it's all about.
but i don't think the PreSonus or a ZED would be the answer. maybe the ZED more so than the PreSonus. I see the SL more as a good live mixer or a mixer for those who already have good pres or as an "all in one" solution to a DAW set up ... SL / Laptop / monitors / GO! i still think you should take those funds and get one of those Midas's.
....btw i liked the song, sent you some remarks about it. i can't get very critical because i don't have a great listening system at the moment. i think the studio gods are going to bring me a set of monitors for my bday so maybe soon i will have a set up going. at the moment, i'm still struggling to keep the property tax paid .... lol.
We have a Venice at the Playhouse and although its really nice,
We have a Venice at the Playhouse and although its really nice, it not very quiet. This could be the way its set up in the building but it doesn't seem like the best way to go for both SN and integration with the DAW. Its really really hard to see everything at a glance but that could also be I'm just not used to it.
The quest continues...
there must be a problem in the way the console at your Playhouse
there must be a problem in the way the console at your Playhouse is set up. these boards are notoriously quiet, like all faders up / no hiss quiet. either the operator is not gain staging properly or there is an issue with how the console is routed to the mains. noisy eq's? overuse of a drive rack? have you yourself ever run the thing? it's not inconceivable that a person running sound at a community Playhouse would not be well versed in the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.artproau…"]ART[/]="http://www.artproau…"]ART[/]. i wouldn't make a hard judgement based on only that.
VENICE 320
Technical Specifications Input Impedance
Mic: 2k&8486; Balanced
Line: 20k&8486; Balanced
Input Gain
Mic: Continuously variable 0dB to +60dB
Line (Mono Channel): Continuously variable -20dB to +40dB
Line (Stereo Channel): Continuously variable -10dB to +20dB
Line Level Inputs: 0dB
Maximum Input Level
Microphone and Line: +22dBu
Line Level Inputs (Mono): +42dBu
Line Level Inputs (Stereo): +22dBu
CMR at 1kHz
Mic (Gain +30dB): > 80dB
Line: > 40dB
CMR at 100Hz
Mic (Gain +30dB): 70dB typical
Frequency Response (20Hz-20kHz)
Mic to Mix (Gain +60dB): + 0dB to -1dB
Noise (20Hz-20kHz)
Mic EIN ref. 150&8486; gain +60dB: -129dBu
Mic EIN ref. 150&8486; gain 0dB: -107dBu
System Noise (20Hz-20kHz)
Summing Noise (12 channels routed faders down): -90dBu
Line to Mix Noise (12 channels routet at 0dB): -84dBu
Distortion at 1kHz
Mic to Insert (+30dB Gain. +20dBu Output): Typ 00007%
Mic to Master (+30dB Gain +20dBu Output): < 0009%
Crosstalk at 1kHz
Channel to Channel: < -80dB
Mix to Mix: < -80dB
Channel to Mix: < -80dB
Fader Attenuation: > 100dB
Switch Rejection: > 100dB
Output Impedance
Line Outputs: 75&8486; balanced
Headphones: to drive 32&8486;
Maximum Output Level
Master Outputs: +25dBu
Line Outputs: +22dBu
Headphones: +22dBu / 600&8486;
Nominal Signal Level
Microphone: - 60dBu to 0dBu
Line: 0dBu
Equaliser Mono Channel
Hi Pass Filter: 2nd order Butterworth 80Hz
Treble: +/-15dB at 12kHz (Shelv)
Hi Mid: Continuously variable 100Hz to 2kHz (1 Oct) +/-15dB
Lo Mid: Continuously variable 400Hz to 8kHz (1 Oct) +/-15dB
Bass: + /-15dB at 80Hz (Shelv)
Equaliser Stereo Channel
Treble: +/-15dB at 12kHz (Shelv)
Hi Mid: 3kHz (14 Oct) +/-15dB
Lo Mid: 300Hz (14 Oct) +/-15dB
Bass: +/-15dB at 80Hz (Shelv)
Size (mm/inch)
Width: 906 / 35.7ô
Depth: 568 / 22.4ô
Height: 194 / 7.6ô
Weight (kg/lb)
258 / 56.9
Could be Kurt. I've never looked through it at all. They ask me
Could be Kurt. I've never looked through it at all. They ask me to do the occasional show when he's required for lighting. His thing is actually lighting so there you go. A recent show I tapped into a couple of bus's to record and it was pretty noisy. I had to ask him a few times to see if we could deal with the gain settings because the feed was hissing so much. We got it better but I thought it was noisy.
I had a hell of a time seeing my way around it too. The colours and tiny knobs just don't do it for me. A few times I was in a panic to get onto it fast and I couldn't see the bloody mute or EQ fast enough for my style. I'm sure I would get used to it over time but for a guy just coming in, I found it really crammed.
It does look very well made though. The sound of the PA is very good.
ya, that is pretty impressive.
They have been thinking of selling that to get something bigger. hmm
it has an internal power supply so that may be a weak link ... ?
it has an internal power supply so that may be a weak link ... ??? it is set up to run world wide 320- 240 -110 - 100 volts.
here's an owners manual online ;
Boswell, post: 416997, member: 29034 wrote: Do you need it for b
Boswell, post: 416997, member: 29034 wrote: Do you need it for both live and studio use? Will you use it for recording or mixdown? Do you need digital I/O (A-D and D-A) on it?
Strictly for tracking and mixing.
Kurt Foster, post: 417022, member: 7836 wrote: for around 2 grand you can get a really nice used Midas Venice. the Venice / Verona line is very well respected and generally considered to be the best table top mixers available. try to get an earlier one that was made in Europe there are several on E Bay right now. if i were shopping for a console a Midas is what i would want.
Lots of good being said about the venice, but no automation? :/
kmetal, post: 417081, member: 37533 wrote: If I were going new, for my own personal studio I'd look very seriously at this one.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATB32a/My reasoning, again, if it had to be new, is a bunch of quality eq, plenty of clean pres/channels for almost any size basic tracking session, and a clean enough path to mix thru, and again take advantage of that much eq. I think eq is the number one thing overlook I as far as equipment goes right now, and it's very expensive to have a lot of OB eqs. It's got talkback.
W the extra money I'd get some color full pres/compressors.
I agree with the EQ statement, that's my main reason for getting an analog console.
The tofts look nice but I've heard equal negative as I've heard positive, and again there's no automation, so I'd basically just being using it just for eq and summing.
RemyRAD, post: 417134, member: 26269 wrote: I'd like to know what sort of music you intend to be mostly recording? As mentioned, I've had no issues or qualms with Midas Venice consoles, which I found quite nice. Though I've never owned one of my own. I've used plenty. And they are musical sounding. My utmost important criteria. Not what the specifications indicate which I really don't give a damn about. Since anything that should be considered professional, should be able to provide professional results within any professionals hand. Which is how Donny makes such great recordings with his TEAC converter thingy. He most assuredly understands gain staging. Which eludes a lot of folks. To me, gain staging is paramount.
Unfortunately some equipment that doesn't really possess the headroom that actual pro equipment possesses, frequently will indicate how to set your gain trim. Not taking into account that its output headroom capability doesn't go beyond +18. Which is where I think a lot of people get into trouble? So when you tweak according to their directives/instructions, your product ends up sounding rather compromised. Because it completely misses out on any headroom. And it's that headroom that separates the men from the toys.
Now what to do when you can't afford that kind of good stuff? That's where education and technique take precedence. That's when it is helpful to understand what the specifications actually specify. And how that impacts what your recordings will sound like, more so than the converters involved. Because this is like adjusting the color on your TV set. Some folks like their colors pastel. Some like them normal. Others like them vivid. But within each one of those descriptors, we're not talking transparency, we're talking color. Do you like black and white or do you like IMAX? I like both. Where, both are appropriate. So, I couldn't possibly own a single piece of equipment, brand, type. I might choose a slightly mushy converter with Zippy sounding microphone preamps? Or I might utilize a more articulate sounding converter with a smoother sounding microphone preamp? And what do you end up with? Virtually the same thing either way. It all comes out in the wash. Because I use springtime fresh smelling Gain laundry detergent, staging.
Wax on. Wax off.
Mx. Remy Ann David
All genres, rock, hip-hop, jazz, country, blues.
Gain staging is paramount.
I wonder what the new Trident 88 console will sale for?
And why doesn't it have automation?? Why is automation even an option on todays consoles?
Man, I would completely forget about automation on the console.
Man, I would completely forget about automation on the console. Use your DAW for all that, it rocks! (y) Use the Console for analog vibe and summing but feed the DAW into it.
I mix ITB and just slightly tweak OTB when it comes to faders. You'll be using analog EQing and very little faders if you are smart.
My gawd, the only thing a console will do better than the DAW today is how it plays with the transients and sums it together. Its an added way to create space and insert hardware " hardware that serves you well". Not a bunch of 500 series wall wart stuff either. Think straightt wire, big headroom, digital patchbay, analog eqing and a mastering section with a monitor section that is so transparent you will notice everything you change start to finish.
I really think the whole idea a console is going to replace the DAW "what it does exceptionally well" is ridiculous and absolutely completely backwards. Automation is the best part of a DAW!
Invest in Sequoia / a great mastering suite, get a console with killer rails, great EQ's and the ability to accept dsubs in 8 channels lanes at a time.
Connect all your hardware through a good patch system (SSL Xpatches or Dangerous Liaison, Manley or something special) and you will be doing cartwheels. Less is more.
To go ever further, plan on getting a deadly mastering matrix of some kind that connects after the console's master out! Thats where it really starts happening! Invest in a few extra finishing tools and great front end stuff like LA2A's, Pultecs, 1176's and big ass preamps for the special sections of your songs you want to shine through. Think wide and deep and external effects like one Bricasti. Learn about mid and side processing. Ooo la la!
Find a way to capture it all on a mixdown system. You are way better off doing it that way over investing in some flying fader problem and a mid level console steering you in yesteryear reverse and back to the same box.
If I found anything that rivaled the NEOS for summing I would be amazed. But, I do want a console just for the EQ section and some extra steps on occasion but I definitely know all the thousands I have spent have gone in the right place. Think MS section after the console. :love:
Generally speaking, its hard to believe FF is where the attention is going. I see that as nothing but a problem, which is far from precise and destined to break down.
EQ automation, now that would be cool, but lets start talking $8000 for 2 channels at a time which is still best spent in the MS section after the console.
KISS.
Forget the FF imho. Nothing but a carrot.
regards,
audiokid, post: 417237, member: 1 wrote: Man, I would completely
audiokid, post: 417237, member: 1 wrote: Man, I would completely forget about automation on the console. Use your DAW for all that, it rocks! (y)
Okay okay, if you say so! I trust you.
I can't find a single Audiotronics 501.
My options are basically a Toft ATB or a Midas Venice, right?
Anyone compared these back to back?
Anything great in this price range that I can get transformer coupled ins and outs? Besides the Audiotronics 501
hehe, I'm not sure if you are pulling my leg but its all fun ;)
hehe, I'm not sure if you are pulling my leg but its all fun ;)
Remember, my analog game is focused around the summing end, which is where the DAW sucks.
example: NEOS has 120v rails, 24 channels, mute ,mastering, solo, panning, 100m faders.
An EQ section would be sweet but, your DAW (a good one) gets mass done already, then external hardware in the mastering section is really ideal as I described for various reasons. A few Pultecs, SS EQ goes a long way.
Once you go this route, you soon see /"hear" the money people are imho wasting and sonically smearing up their mix. I am so convinced, "less is more" has way more impact than too much that we never really need in the lanes. What's wrong with your DAW EQ for the basic tweaks? I love my DAW.
That being said, I would still love to have a console on my front end to add to this system but it would never replace the killer sound I get from the "same" hardware I can multitask for recording, mixing and mastering. I can use everything I have on the front end, for the mix and master too.
Digital patchbays make instant on the fly switching possible. And they are clean!
I'm not trying to sell anyone on this, just saying what I do and would do exactly again. So, if I had first choice, it would again be the NEOS or some other high headroom (transparent) summing box. Before that I used the MixDream and it was awesome too! This workflow tunes me closer to hybrid mastering quality.
The day I strap on a console, I will hear where it shines or smears the summing and master instantly. If I went the other way first (during my hybrid learning curve) I seriously doubt I would have had near the knowledge I have now. I am embracing and learning what parts of both systems do best and building a system around this rather than blinding following old school ideas that analog is better or the DAW is the ultimate. They both have there strengths and weaknesses. In ten years do we seriously think people are going to be using some archaic console? Think console as a router and way to integrate hardware in and out of your DAW. And, how it won't break what the DAW or and analog does well.
Its too much to explain it all. My idea is to use great gear more proficiently.
Regarding extra channels. The last 8 channels that the NEOS doesn't have in my 32 ADDA does not go unused!
Remember - 8 lanes of a 32 channel converter can still accept inserts from hardware (front end or back end access). A digital patchbay is the ultimate for hardware effects and inserts from front end tracking. ADDA is realestate for effects that need nothing but a lane. These lanes are perfect for tracking and aux effects like extrenal Bricastis, Eventides, Guitar effects ...
Hybrid like this is not about sacrifice, its learning how to connect it all and then optimization it with the straightest wire and never loosing the ability to recal it via the beauty of your DAW, Midi and digital patchbays.
I could go on, which I don't want to do. Its hard not to talk about it though.
Here is how I hear it.
DAW's Rock for most everything but summing.
So, look at what I do and you will see my system is all about different ways to sum a mix.
The beauty of this, I can also track with all I use to mix or master.
If you need 32 channels of Pre's going in, then, thats where you start.
I don't need that many so here is my front end.
I have 14 channels of high end mic pre's that are my varies flavours for drums, Vox, acoustic capture. . I don't EQ going in but I definitely use hardware LA2A and 1176 going in. Nothing comes close to the sound of a vocal going into an LA2A /1176 front end. If you haven't experienced the real deal, your are missing the Pro Audio bomb.
It cannot be emulated ITB or mixed with the same results after the capture. I do however, use those same LA2A's etc for mixing and mastering.
All being said,
The AH 24 Bos has spotted looks really awesome too. If I could get what I have and more all in one console for 15K, I would be amazed.
I think the next generation of consoles are just starting to kick in. What ever they are, they should be something like my Neos with maybe some selectable mono channels and EQ's.
However, Sequoia 13 is slated to have mono bus' so...
The console I really want, is the NEOS as its DAW summing being the problem.
audiokid, post: 417250, member: 1 wrote: hehe, I'm not sure if y
audiokid, post: 417250, member: 1 wrote: hehe, I'm not sure if you are pulling my leg but its all fun ;)
Remember, my analog game is focused around the summing end, which is where the DAW sucks.
example: NEOS has 120v rails, 24 channels, mute ,mastering, solo, panning, 100m faders.
An EQ section would be sweet but, your DAW (a good one) gets mass done already, then external hardware in the mastering section is really ideal as I described for various reasons. A few Pultecs, SS EQ goes a long way.
Once you go this route, you soon see /"hear" the money people are imho wasting and sonically smearing up their mix. I am so convinced, "less is more" has way more impact than too much that we never really need in the lanes. What's wrong with your DAW EQ for the basic tweaks? I love my DAW.That being said, I would still love to have a console on my front end to add to this system but it would never replace the killer sound I get from the "same" hardware I can multitask for recording, mixing and mastering. I can use everything I have on the front end, for the mix and master too.
Digital patchbays make instant on the fly switching possible. And they are clean!
I'm not trying to sell anyone on this, just saying what I do and would do exactly again. So, if I had first choice, it would again be the NEOS or some other high headroom (transparent) summing box. Before that I used the MixDream and it was awesome too! This workflow tunes me closer to hybrid mastering quality.
The day I strap on a console, I will hear where it shines or smears the summing and master instantly. If I went the other way first (during my hybrid learning curve) I seriously doubt I would have had near the knowledge I have now. I am embracing and learning what parts of both systems do best and building a system around this rather than blinding following old school ideas that analog is better or the DAW is the ultimate. They both have there strengths and weaknesses. In ten years do we seriously think people are going to be using some archaic console? Think console as a router and way to integrate hardware in and out of your DAW. And, how it won't break what the DAW or and analog does well.
Its too much to explain it all. My idea is to use great gear more proficiently.
Regarding extra channels. The last 8 channels that the NEOS doesn't have in my 32 ADDA does not go unused!
Remember - 8 lanes of a 32 channel converter can still accept inserts from hardware (front end or back end access). A digital patchbay is the ultimate for hardware effects and inserts from front end tracking. ADDA is realestate for effects that need nothing but a lane. These lanes are perfect for tracking and aux effects like extrenal Bricastis, Eventides, Guitar effects ...
Hybrid like this is not about sacrifice, its learning how to connect it all and then optimization it with the straightest wire and never loosing the ability to recal it via the beauty of your DAW, Midi and digital patchbays.
I could go on, which I don't want to do. Its hard not to talk about it though.
Here is how I hear it.
DAW's Rock for most everything but summing.So, look at what I do and you will see my system is all about different ways to sum a mix.
The beauty of this, I can also track with all I use to mix or master.If you need 32 channels of Pre's going in, then, thats where you start.
I don't need that many so here is my front end.I have 14 channels of high end mic pre's that are my varies flavours for drums, Vox, acoustic capture. . I don't EQ going in but I definitely use hardware LA2A and 1176 going in. Nothing comes close to the sound of a vocal going into an LA2A /1176 front end. If you haven't experienced the real deal, your are missing the Pro Audio bomb.
It cannot be emulated ITB or mixed with the same results after the capture. I do however, use those same LA2A's etc for mixing and mastering.All being said,
The AH 24 Bos has spotted looks really awesome too. If I could get what I have and more all in one console for 15K, I would be amazed.
I think the next generation of consoles are just starting to kick in. What ever they are, they should be something like my Neos with maybe some selectable mono channels and EQ's.
However, Sequoia 13 is slated to have mono bus' so...
The console I really want, is the NEOS as its DAW summing being the problem.
Wow, what an eye opener, thank you Chris.
My options are basically a [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.tofta
My options are basically a [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.toftaudi…"]Toft[/]="http://www.toftaudi…"]Toft[/] ATB or a Midas Venice, right?
Anyone compared these back to back?
You said you wanted new or used w no issues, and I can't really see many other options. After getting a trident 24 used then spending a couple thousand upgrading things, we re still tracking down problems. It sounds amazing, but, isn't transformer based pres. So while you can get a lot more board for the money used, you have to figure in maintenance. I've never heard anything bad about the Venice, and live stuff is usually pretty rugged, but, the big question is how well was it taken care of. So just be careful.
IMHO I would doubt an atb is actually 6k better in performance than a decent Venice. If it were me I'd get a Venice and some premium eqs and compressors. Lol I've tracked thru Mackies before and been fine. A few people around here heard the stuff and thought it was ok. I think the atbs got off to a bad start, but I know someone who frequently works on one and doesn't own it, and speaks highly of it. He is a gear snob lol. But he likes the the eq has a selectable low bell/shelf, and possibly selectable frequency if I remember correctly, which would be 100( the original trident freq) and 80hz. Dave one of the mods here, loves his for drums, maybe worth asking him if your seriously considering one.
Im still convinced that a company who comes out w a truly professional mid size tracking recording console will strike gold. Like if the API box was a tracking/mix console. That 15-20k budget is where most average studios are at for a console, if they're lucky, even 10, a manufacturer should be able to put out a decent product.
I've hammered on almost every medium sized format console for li
I've hammered on almost every medium sized format console for live work, and quite a few large formats... The Venice is serviceable, and a hell of a lot of solid console for the dosh.
The ORIGINAL ATB's were either really good, or really mediocre. The one's I've put hands on were all nice consoles. A good value for what they are...
But neither of them compare to some of the large format consoles that can be had in that 10k-15k range... XL's, H3k's, Verona's, Legend's, Paragon's...
audiokid, post: 417351, member: 1 wrote: Hey Max, I'm curious wh
audiokid, post: 417351, member: 1 wrote: Hey Max, I'm curious why after all these years are you now thinking about a console? What's changed your mind? Whats missing or where are you hoping to benefit?
After all these years?!?!?
Pardon me... but... Huh?!?
The ONLY reason I went with the SloStools rig w/Icon, was because I ran out of cash building this money pit. Otherwise, I would have gotten SloStools and a Trident A-Range or a Daking 8 bus. The 1608 was new, and there were a few too many issues for the bloodletting of sheckels.
As for what changed my mind?!?!? I never have changed my mind, and have never liked 100% ITB... never have, never will. I prefer to use DAW's for storage and editing... after that... gimme iron babe.
It's remarkable to me that some engineers haven't changed the wa
It's remarkable to me that some engineers haven't changed the way they work thru technology, and others are right up to date, and yet both styles still sit up at the top. I think were gonna start to see a bigger separation between home studio and professional studio, and people are gonna to start to understand the merits of hardware mixing, and good monitoring.
I'm currently looking at sidecars for everything. I have an ATB8
I'm currently looking at sidecars for everything. I have an ATB8 which I've owned for a while now and recorded several productions through. It seems to work just fine for what I use it for. I have a friend with a mint condition, last model, Hill Multi-mix which for the money will make a nice set of pres and that odd shelving but very musical EQ they used. I think it becomes overflow preamps or even outboard sub-mixer since it has direct outs. Its 12X12X4X2. Cant beat it for the price. I've worked live on Midas, Soundcrafts, Crests, Tascams, Yamahas and A&H's. I own a GL3 A&H, Soundcraft E12, Toft ATB8, and have in recent years spent uncountable hours on a Ghost. Its funny....the prices on medium sized, mid range consoles dropped dramatically a few years back. Now they are creeping back up as small studios, home-based and commercial rooms are starting to "get" why having a centerpiece in the room is a good thing. I've owned a Yamaha PM1000. Not a recording board except when altered but its transformer city under the hood. I don't recommend the Ghost unless you rebuild the master section.
So depending on your work flow, what a console can give you can be a good use of space and money or it can simply be an albatross taking up real estate and sucking down the amperes with no return for your buck.
If I had the place and the money I would definately buy a smaller footprint large format console. If you have enough outboard pres and good patch bays then you'll never need much more than 16 channels for any tracking session. Especially into a DAW as your capture machinery. My room allows me to do 24 at a time and with my low numbers of square footage, its more than enough. Actually gives me the ability to really choose the right pre for the business at hand.
kmetal, post: 417389, member: 37533 wrote: It's remarkable to me
kmetal, post: 417389, member: 37533 wrote: It's remarkable to me that some engineers haven't changed the way they work thru technology, and others are right up to date, and yet both styles still sit up at the top. I think were gonna start to see a bigger separation between home studio and professional studio, and people are gonna to start to understand the merits of hardware mixing, and good monitoring.
This is said somewhat tongue in cheek, but life is kinda' funny... you (collectively) young cats think there's some mass awakening to why there are professional studios... with all us old hasbeen geezer's saying... " 'bout damn time."
The recording arts are extremely new in the grand scheme of things... and it grew about because of the ultimate desire the analog phenomena we call music and spoken word, to be preserved for eternity and to be shared and enjoyed and experienced.
What so few people actually know any more, is what a real performance experience is.
In the case of digital, the desire for a more stable and smaller storage medium is what the initial goal was. Editing came afterwards... just as razor blades and cutting blocks came after tape recording devices.
But regardless of storage medium, the bottom line is that when the rubber hits the road, one still must face the reality that our ears are an analog device... with the analog human brain processing that analog world. Digital by shear nature is imperfect... just as analog is, as well. But either medium gets us fairly close to a convincing replication of the initial captured signal.
MadMax, post: 417467, member: 1402 wrote: This is said somewhat
MadMax, post: 417467, member: 1402 wrote: This is said somewhat tongue in cheek, but life is kinda' funny... you (collectively) young cats think there's some mass awakening to why there are professional studios... with all us old hasbeen geezer's saying... " 'bout damn time."
The recording arts are extremely new in the grand scheme of things... and it grew about because of the ultimate desire the analog phenomena we call music and spoken word, to be preserved for eternity and to be shared and enjoyed and experienced.
What so few people actually know any more, is what a real performance experience is.
In the case of digital, the desire for a more stable and smaller storage medium is what the initial goal was. Editing came afterwards... just as razor blades and cutting blocks came after tape recording devices.
But regardless of storage medium, the bottom line is that when the rubber hits the road, one still must face the reality that our ears are an analog device... with the analog human brain processing that analog world. Digital by shear nature is imperfect... just as analog is, as well. But either medium gets us fairly close to a convincing replication of the initial captured signal.
That's why it's hard to be floating somewhere in the middle and probably not the smartest choice.
Do you need it for both live and studio use? Will you use it for
Do you need it for both live and studio use? Will you use it for recording or mixdown? Do you need digital I/O (A-D and D-A) on it?