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anonymous 10 January 2002

Greetings all,

I thought I'd pass on some info about the New Pro Tools/HD systems. This isn't a plug it is just FYI. This topic seemed to be realy hot on the Digi boards. I am an authorized Digidesign TDM Dealer and I got the news late today. The info is only partial, but it give you the ideas. The main system is 192k sample rate at 24 bits, a whopping 128 tracks! over 128 aux. returns, 128 midi as before. The system is going to run on the same Pro Tools Software until an upgrade (that wasn't mentioned) is released. The are two I/Os 192k and 96k.

Anyway I thought everyone might like to know. If you want to know more I put a lot of the detail on our website.

http://www.dixondigital.com

Darren
Dixon Digital

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anonymous Fri, 01/11/2002 - 08:36

The price is the same as the mix was.

HD1 list $7995
HD2 list $9995
HD3 list $11,995

Check out this link for more specific details and list prices including the I/Os
http://www.dixondigital.com

The old I/Os with still work through a "Legacy" port and their price has not changed.

I'm not sure about an upgrade path other than if users bought a mix sytem After 1/17/02 at old price.

The mix systems pretty much went down $2k on each one.

The new systems will be totally backwards compatable, and I assume that the apogee converters will still work through the legacy port or through AES/EBU ins or wich ever digital format is of preference.

I believe you can still use 44.1k, 48k converters on the same session when it goes through the new Digi I/Os. I'm not for sure I haven't received my full info pack yet that gets down to ALL the specifics.

Check out the website its pretty interesting.

Darren
Dixon Digital

Guest Fri, 01/11/2002 - 12:01

OK what would be the recomended PT upgrade for:

2 x Apogee AD8000SE's
1 x 888/16 for digital i/o of 41/48 AES gear
1 x mix core
3 x mix farms
1 x vintage farm

I might wish to keep the Apogees.

I know I want the new cards..

I am confused on the interfaces and what would work best for me.

I wonder if Apogee will reverse engineer a hook up, direct to the cards... (Save me $2K or $4K if they did...)

Also HOW MANY legasy interfaces can one hook up to the back of each interface (2 via Y cable?)

What is missing from your site is any info at all on the cards. DO POST UP as soon as you have any of that please!!!!

Thanks!

:)

RecorderMan Fri, 01/11/2002 - 14:56

YES YES YES

I am so stoked....the new Pro Tools looks better and answers all the knocks against their current system, x10! I'll be out of my Mix Plus and into an HD3 by years end. The last 2years of working primarily in PT is gonna pay-off big time now.
The death of Analog is nearer than you may wnat to believe...

anonymous Fri, 01/11/2002 - 17:47

O.K Guys I've got some more news. I talked to my Digidesign rep today, and it seems I jumped the gun and kinda spilled the beans unknowingly. I wasn't suposed to let anybody know about the new system until NAMM! The thing is Digidesign forgot to tell me this. Digidesign was very cool about asking me to take down the info off my site until NAMM when it is officialy released.

I was excited as all of you guys are and I wanted to share the GOOD news! I had it up on our website just hours after receiving it. I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to talk about it until NAMM when the offical release is. Sorry to get everybody so hyped and not be able give you any more info... yet. I will be checking this BB regularly, and making notes of your questions and studying up so I can answer all of them. I should be getting an info pack in the mail soon.

Digi has addressed many of the issues on the previous systems. And Take it from me Digi is keeping with their habits of giving us something that is sooo cool that it makes buying new gear fun again!! I Love it and I am pumped!! I am looking forward to getting our New Demo system!!

Only six more days until NAMM

Thanks for the support!

Darren
Dixon Digital
http://www.dixondigital.com

Opus2000 Fri, 01/11/2002 - 22:09

Hey guys...we at Apogee are highly anticipating the Namm show as well and will give more of an official statement as to what the hell is going to happen soon after that...the legacy port does look like it's a possibility but no true say until we actually chat with our friendly Digi folk!
Even the possibility of going AES out of the AD8000's would be nice but I think most AD8000 users like the fact that the new Digi8+ card can make it so Pro Tools can change the sample rate from within!!
I'm sure we will see you all at the Namm show!! Look forward to it
Peace
Opus

Guest Sat, 01/12/2002 - 02:26

Opus from Apogee wrote:

"Even the possibility of going AES out of the AD8000's would be nice but I think most AD8000 users like the fact that the new Digi8+ card can make it so Pro Tools can change the sample rate from within!!"

Er.. I beg to differ, direct connection to the cards..now THAT is cool. Remote switching of sample rate? - I frankly, could not care less... I mean I dig the new card free (thanks) n all but.....it's not important in the grand scheme of things, at least for me..

Just my opinion...

Please report back here from NAMM everyone! DANG! Makes me want to hop on a plane again!

:)

anonymous Sat, 01/12/2002 - 11:55

Jules,

I'll be there with my digital camera :D , The day I get back It will be up on the website. If I can get hotel internet access It will be up sooner so keep checking our site. I think Digidesing has the main stage to demo the system Friday at around 11:00 am if I remember correctly. I love it!

Well considering how Digidesign has been jumping on just about anything or anyone that releases information in regards to the new Pro-tools - I'm surprised you're not on the rack right now!

Ant,
I get it now.... sometimes it takes me a while. Yeah I know what you mean. I thought it was really classy how my rep called me personally to "ask" me. He was very cool and nice.

5 more days!

I'll keep everybody posted.

Darren
Dixon Digital
http://www.dixondigital.com

anonymous Mon, 01/14/2002 - 14:38

Hey Chris, thanks for the link. Man it looks like the 192 is going to be double the price of the 96. 16 I/O at 192 whew! I wonder how good the clock will be. Apogee has been topping the ol' 888 for a while. Also i wonder if the soft clip limiter will sound "natural". Man at a 4k price tag, if it sounds great, buying gear this year is gonna get fun. (i wonder if apogee will have an answer to this product)

HD3 withe the 192 seems the way to go, but we'll have to see it up close at the show.

Guest Tue, 01/15/2002 - 01:51

Will they publish how signal runs through the cards? Or will it be somewhat of a trade secret like the TDM Platform? Having seen the interfaces on various leaked info sites, I am now MOST interested in

1) Info / spec on the cards
2) Power of the cards
3) Included 'bundled' plug ins (any new ones that make use of the high sample rate?)
4) Upgrade path (what can be traded in? - does it gos as far back as 888/16's & Merl Farm cards? - I have one of each along with some Mix + stuff)
5) cost of additional i/o cards AES interfaces / add ons etc..
6) Computer required
7) will the new cards work in a bit 3 7 slot expansion chassis?

That's all!

:)

anonymous Tue, 01/15/2002 - 09:18

Originally posted by RecorderMan:
YES YES YES

I am so stoked....the new Pro Tools looks better and answers all the knocks against their current system, x10!

Umm, not unless they actually changed their summing. 192k doesn't buy you jack if you try to force that much more info down a crappy pipe that can't even handle 44.1k worth a damn.

If it sounds better, that's good - maybe pop records will sound less grainy next year.

No hard feelings... (do you want Rupert Neve's opinion on it? Read TapeOp.)

If only digi would sell sound instead of numbers. I'm not holding my breath.

Graham

anonymous Tue, 01/15/2002 - 17:34

The Home Recording site info got pulled but I copied it from another forum-

New Pro Tools Hardware

At January'sWinter NAMM 2002 in Anaheim California, Digidesign unveiled their new line of Pro Tools|HD hardware. Needless to say it was all the buzz at the show. Below is a glimpse of the five new pieces of next-generation Pro Tools hardware.

New I/O

Digidesign has completely revamped their systems, interfaces and added several new products to their lineup. At the top of the heap are two new I/O boxes called 192 I/O and 96 I/O. These take the place of the 888/24 and 882/20 interfaces and come capable of up to 192kHz or 96kHz respectively.

192 I/O

192 I/O Features:

* 50 possible inputs and outputs
* Supports up to 16 simultaneous channels of high definition I/O
* Card option bay for analog or digital I/O expansion with192 AD,192 DA, or 192 Digital cards
* World-class 24-bit/192 kHz A/D & D/A conversion
* Comes with a wide range of digital I/O, including 8 channels of AES/EBU I/O, 8 channels of TDIF I/O,16 channels of ADAT I/O and 2 additional channels of AES/EBU or S/PDIF I/O
* Word (1x) and Slave Clock (256x) input/output
* Switchable, real-time sample rate conversion on digital inputs of the 192 Digital card allows easy streaming of digital signals at any sample rate
* Soft-Clip Limiter allows higher levels to disk for punchier, hotter recordings
* Expansion Port allows for direct connection of another 192 I/O or 96 I/O
* Legacy Peripheral port allows for connection of 888|24, 882|20, 1622, or 24-Bit ADAT Bridge I/Os

Next in line and of special interest to home recorders will be the 96 I/O. Although it doesn't have the same expansion options as its big brother, this box is versatile and the price is right in line with other I/O boxes with this feature set.

96 I/O

96 I/O Features:

* Supports up to 16 channels of high definition I/O
* 8 channels of 24-bit/96 kHz analog I/O (TRS)
* 8 channels of ADAT optical I/O (TOS-Link)
* 1 AES/EBU I/O pair (XLR)
* 1 S/PDIF I/O pair (RCA)
* Expansion Port allows for direct connection of another 96 I/O
* Legacy Peripheral port allows for connection of 888|24, 882|20, 1622, and 24-Bit ADAT Bridge I/Os

"Pro Tools|HD" > Page 1, 2, 3

"Pro Tools|HD" > Page 1, 2, 3

New MIDI I/O, Sync box and Mic Preamp

Also of interest to those with home production studios will be the new MIDI I/O from Digidesign. All the boxes mentioned in this feature provide seamless integration between all Digidesign products.

MIDI I/O

MIDI I/O Features:

* 10 MIDI I/O ports supporting 160 MIDI channels
* Support for connecting up to 4 MIDI I/O peripherals for a total of 40 ports
* Support for Digidesign Time Stamping (supported in upcoming software releases)
* USB-powered connection
* Full OMS/WDM compatibility
* Hardware Thru Mode patches input 1 to all outputs
* Output ports 9 and 10 mirrored on front and rear panel

Also debuted at the show was a new Sync I/O and multi-channel, remote-controllable microphone preamp.

SYNC I/O Features:

* Next generation, high-fidelity, low-jitter clock
* Near sample-accurate lock to time code or bi-phase signals
* Word Clock I/O up to192 kHz capable
* Supports all major industry standard clock sources and time code formats
* Supports industry-standard pull-up/pull-down rates for film/video
* Two 9-pin ports allow dual device control when using Machine Control option in master or remote slave mode

PRE Features:

* Eight high-performance, discrete matched transistor hybrid microphone pre-amplification circuits
* Support for mic (XLR), direct instrument (DI) and line level inputs (1/4")
* Each channel includes a high pass filter, phase reverse, 48V (phantom power) and switchable soft-clip limiter
* Fully remote controllable via Pro Tools software and Digidesign control surfaces; allows for the highest fidelity by keeping low-level signals close to the source
* Selectable impedance matching for mic, line or instrument inputs
* MIDI IN/OUT/THRU ports for remote operation
* All features supported in stand-alone mode, making PRE an ideal analog front end for any recording system

System And Peripheral Prices

The system as a whole can provide as many as 128 audio tracks, increased DSP power and the higher sampling rates. The good news is that the system prices are the same as the old. Digidesign realizes that this is a competitive market and wants to be able to equip as many people as possible with the new gear. Another nice plus is that the 192 I/O is expandable. You can get another 8-tracks out or into the same box without having to buy another interface. As before, you need an I/O and a PCI interface card (now called HD Core) to make up a system. Although the HD Core contains some DSP, if you want to expand you'll need to purchase more HD Process cards (formerly called a Farm Card). All systems include the lastest Pro Tools software and a promotional pack of HDplug-ins

System Prices:

* $7995 - Pro Tools|HD 1 (includes 1 HD Core)
* $9995 - Pro Tools|HD 2 (includes 1 HD Core and 1 HD Process)
* $11995 - Pro Tools|HD 3 (includes 1 HD Core and 2 HD Process)
* $3995 - Additional HD Process Cards

I/O Boxes and new peripherals:

* $3995 - 192 I/O
* $1295 - 192 A/D Expansion Card
* $1195 - 192 D/A Expansion Card
* $995 - 192 Digital Expansion Card
* $1995 - 96 I/O
* $2095 - SYNC I/O
* $595 - MIDI I/O
* $2495 - PRE

Introducing The Mbox

At the show, Digidesign also unveiled a new USB desktop I/O box developed in conjunction with Focusrite.

Mbox features:

* Cross-platform (Mac and PC)
* USB I/O and power
* Two phantom-powered mic/line inputs
* Two analog line outputs
* Digital stereo S/PDIF I/O
* Inserts for interfacing other gear
* Price: $495

anonymous Wed, 01/16/2002 - 17:55

So, I have been working totally in PT as my main medium. Are you saying that for me to work on the same 64 track session that I am currently working on at 24/48 I'll need triple the interfaces, triple the hard drive etc... to end up back at 44.1 when I mix!! I understand the higher rate for mastering, or working on few tracks but 64 or more ? someone help me to make since of this. I know harddisks are getting cheaper but lets talk DDS4 backup, the present largest DDS4 tape os 20 gig uncompressed, as I read it I can now use compression for now I can save /backup40gigs on DDS4 . if this is correct I'm back to backing up each song on its own DDS or AIT tape and it's going to be slow as Christmas. At what point does the higher rate uncrees record sales!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anonymous Wed, 01/16/2002 - 19:02

Originally posted by Kurtstudio:
So, I have been working totally in PT as my main medium. Are you saying that for me to work on the same 64 track session that I am currently working on at 24/48 I'll need tripple the interfaces, tripple the harddrive etc... to end up back at 44.1 when I mix!! I understand the higher rate for mastering, or working on few tracks but 64 or more ? someone help me to make since of this.

Only if you want 192k or 96k. You can of course stay with what your using now.

anonymous Wed, 01/16/2002 - 21:59

Well just ordered my HD3 upgrade went for a 192k box. Will get another 8 A/D later keeping the 882 and trading the 1622. Trade in deal is real cool.

Will hopefully get it within the next 4 weeks.
Yeah. Yes I am the total Gear Slut, need the extra DSP was going for another farm although this meant expansion chasis.

erockerboy Wed, 01/16/2002 - 22:29

Welp, now that all the juicy details on "PT HD" are available for perusal at Digidesign's website, I noticed a few items of interest.

First of all, I couldn't find mention ANYWHERE of the new system's internal bit depth. Seems curious, dunnit? What with all the other beefy new specs on "TDM II" being trumpeted on the site(128 trax at 192 kHz, etc.), I'm wondering why there's no reference to the new architecture's internal summing resolution. Are we still at 24-bit fixed everytime we hop on and off the TDM II bus?

Second of all, Digidesign now has their version of "MIDI Time Stamping." Look out baby. This is really tempting me to dump the last few pieces of MOTU gear I own and go all-Digi. I just wish the MIDI side of PT would catch up to the rest of the sequencer world, it would make my life SO MUCH EASIER.

Oh well, life is lookin' pretty good for disciples of Alsihad, and I think I will probably spring for a new blown-out PT rig with ProControl within the next few months. Then, I can fly out to London for Jedi training with Julian "Yoda" Standen... for a modest fee of course.

:)

Rader Ranch Wed, 01/16/2002 - 22:37

well...looking over all the docs a bit after midnight here...among other things i read:

TDM II actually features a new, completely redesigned architecture, offering much more efficient use of the TDM timeslots. TDM features a 24-bit internal signal path with a mix engine utilizing 56-bit internal accumulation precision.

please correct me if i'm wrong, but this sounds like the same architecture as before, concerning the 24 bit path between plugs and 56 bit accumulation at the 2 mix...so if this is so, then it hasn't gotten better sonically, just bigger (512 time slots), which you'd think would make sense just to handle basic functions at the higher sampling rates. boohiss...

i personally also don't find the upgrade path particularly attractive, especially considering the fact that you have to buy a new interface it seems....though i actually need to go back and see if they mention definitivey somewhere whether you can mix HD cores with older style dsp farms. if not, then many folks (like me) will have shitloads of farms lying around that i'm sure we can't turn in all at once for a defacto free new farm card or HD interface...i'm guessing it's only 1 old card plus $$$$$$ per offer.

plus it says some functions that are currently in 5.1.3 or 5.2 are NOT in the PT|HD software as of this initial release....gotta dig in there and see if they mention just what those features might be...eeek...

so...higher sample rates...woohoo :insert boredom graemlin here:...afraid my excitement is pretty limited right now....

Rader Ranch Wed, 01/16/2002 - 22:59

Originally posted by EJolson:
Digidesign now has their version of "MIDI Time Stamping." Look out baby. This is really tempting me to dump the last few pieces of MOTU gear I own and go all-Digi

doesn't the USB MIDI/MOTU spec out at sample accurate midi timing? i thought it beat the new PT sync interface by almost a factor of ten...probably wrong about that too.....

i just posted a couple questions in the MacOS section of the DUC...hopefully they won't consider it trolling, as it certainly wasn't intended that way...

oh yeah. also, no OSX :(

pretty much all my graphics apps are there now, internet, office, etcet...and if i pay for the latest Logic then i could even have audio there in a fashion. it really is time...

Rader Ranch Wed, 01/16/2002 - 23:21

ok, got a one thing figured out.

no old cards with the new, period, apparently. so what you can't exchange (with cash)for new stuff you gotta sell on your own.

also intersting that the DEA is no longer a seperate app...which doesn't mean shit to me if the math isn;t better of course...

256 RAM min....the cheaper it is, the more you need...

i sure hop they test more stuff with the new system too...only computer listed is as compatible is the AGP G4.

i also can't believe digi is still in the hard drive selling buisiness...digidrive...lol!

..zzzzzz.....

anonymous Fri, 01/18/2002 - 17:37

sooo...,

the new protools has been unveiled, but it seems it hasn't changed much!

the mixer has just undergone minor changes, and even with the bigger systems you "just" can get 64 tracks @ 24/96 or 32 @ 24/192 (whoever needs that)!
will it at least sound better?

the dsp-power has also just grown linear with the highger samplingrate, and even if you decide to use "just" 24/96 instead of 24/192.
i guess that digi couldn't incorporate more powerfull dsp's without reprogramming the whole stuff at the cost of backwardscomp.

at least the prices aren't higher, unless you haven't purchased a new mix-system during the last months.
but the change of the interface is really mean, especially if you-as a longterm ptuser-have invested heavily into 3rd-party-outboardgear!

meanwhile, steinberg has introduced vst-link to overcome performancelimitations, and if it works as promised it's another major step forward to make nuendo the more flexible and potential program.
don't want to start a flameware, because i think protools is still the more grown-up and proven gear and everyone should use the stuff which is bestsuited for his/her needs, but if steinberg will implement better videosupport and will offer a good hardwarecontroller (and a less-cluttered interface and less bugs-nuendo 2.0 out soon at frankfurt?), the air will get very thin for digi. some serious work to be done, no doubt about that, but possible to accomplish within a years timeframe.

so imo, digi has missed the opportunity to set protools apart from the rest of the pack, but just being able to close some gaps which were long overdue.

what do you digi-guys think?

kind regards!

:w:

Greg Malcangi Sat, 01/19/2002 - 01:14

the dsp-power has also just grown linear with the highger samplingrate, and even if you decide to use "just" 24/96 instead of 24/192.
i guess that digi couldn't incorporate more powerfull dsp's without reprogramming the whole stuff at the cost of backwardscomp.

The dsp power has been greatly increased. Each Process card now has 9 dsp chips instead of the 6 on mix cards, each of those dsp chips is 25% more powerful and all dsp's are now "A" type. So for example, a mix card can run a maximum of 3 Reverb One's, whereas a process card can run 9, even at 96kS/s.

Greg

anonymous Sat, 01/19/2002 - 03:53

hi greg,

frankly, my knowledge about digital signal processing is very limited and i'm therefore glad about every possibility to expand it.

so a few questions:

"Each Process card now has 9 dsp chips instead of the 6 on mix cards, each of those dsp chips is 25% more powerful..."

that's why i thought that the power just has grown linear, because it in other words mean that the new boards are ~twice as powerfull as the old ones (9*1,25/6 is 1,875), or am i mistaken on that?

also, as far as i know, if you process data @24/48 or 24/96, the amount of data to get handled in the latter case is twice as much.

therefore, i assumed that, in order to allow processing as fast and as much as with the lower samplingrate, you need 2 times the dsp-power.

would be glad if you could lighten me up where i did the mistakes :w:

Greg Malcangi Sun, 01/20/2002 - 03:22

Hi Synergy,

if you process data @24/48 or 24/96, the amount of data to get handled in the latter case is twice as much. therefore, i assumed that, in order to allow processing as fast and as much as with the lower samplingrate, you need 2 times the dsp-power.

That's the theory but in practice it depends on exactly how the plug is coded and what calculations it's doing. In addition to the speed increase, more chips per card, and all chips now of the "A" type, each chip also has a much larger RAM cache. This is why a mix farm can instantiate 3 Reverb Ones @ 48kS/s and a process card can run 9 @ 96kS/s (or 48kS/s).

To accomplish this with Reverb One instantiations, according to the theory process cards must have 6 times the processing power of a mix card, which they don't. In short it's impossible to compare precisely the performance increase as far as plug instantiations are concerned. A basic comparison is that a process card will in general appear to have about twice the performance of a mix card. Sometimes it will appear to have more than twice the power and sometimes not. We'll only see how this works in a real world situation when we use it in a real world situation.

Greg

anonymous Mon, 01/21/2002 - 11:24

Hi everybody,

I'm back from NAMM! Wow what a week end! I took my digital camera intending to take a bunch of pictures and only took 2! I was so in to everything, and there was just so much information to get that I ran out of time.

Any way. The new HD systems are awesome! You're right Greg, about twice the power for the same money.

I've got all the upgrade paths available if anybody is interested. The new 192 I/O is great very powerful and flexible.

Someone asked earlier if older cards will work with the new system. No. TDM technology has been totaly revamped and is now much, much more effecient. So you should not get anymore PCI bus errors on large sessions.

Let me know if anybody wants a system we are a dealer in KY and we offer the lowest prices. It could also include a plane ticket to the great bluegrass state to pick your system up!

Darren
http://www.dixondigital.com

anonymous Tue, 01/22/2002 - 19:15

all I think as a "digi guy" (digi user would be better) is that withoutplug-insbeing ready for the new system, no pro will be able to upgrade, period

I had a chance to talk to some plug-In Developers at Namm. Some that work closely with Digi are already available and some just have to do a couple of tweeks to get it ready for upgrade.

Currentplug-insShipping
All of Digidesigns
Access: Virus
Drawmer: Drawmer Dynamics
Focusrite: d2 and d3
Waves: Allplug-ins Aphex: Aural Exciter, Big Bottom Pro
Line 6: Amp Farm and Echo Farm
Wave Mechanics: Allplug-ins McDSP: Allplug-ins Bomb Factory: Allplug-ins
Sony Oxford eq is on its way probably this quarter. Others in line for Q1 or Q2:
DUY: All TDMplug-ins Cuan: Wide:R
Dolby: Surround Tools
AnTares: Auto-Tune, AMM-1
Waldorf: Q TDM Synthesizer
Metric Halo: SpectraFoo, Channel Strip

There are many others that will be available soon I believe. From what I understand the HTDM is not that different than other software solutions and will not take much coding to get going. The TDMs will be close behind.

It seemed like there were some people concerned with the availability ofplug-ins and being able to get the job done with the limitedplug-insthat work. I think there are plenty for starters. I'd like to know what otherplug-insyou all are using that you "have to have". All input welcome.

Thanks

Darren
http://www.dixondigital.com

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