This has been debated a thousand times. I'd go Mac but my needs may be different. If your used to a PC go PC. :)

If your main concerns are raw speed, low price and tons of sofware to choose from go PC.

I prefer Macs myself.
:c:

Yo man..
the soft i Use is Nuendo and SX .. even if i´m on Mac i´ll use Nuendo and SX ( don´t like PT ) so i think u should choose what soft to use then choose the plataform. if u´ll use Nuendo and SX i think the best way to go is PC (more stable for Steinberg Apps ) but if u wanna Pro Tools/Logic Macs are the way to go.. : )

my 2cents.. : )

Cheers..
PG

Nick, I have been a PC user since 1983 when the first IBM was introduced. Since then I have use Macs on and off but mostly PC's.

I don't know about you but I am about ready to give up on this stupid Wintel platform. Microsoft's latest XP %&%#^ really has been the last straw. I bought a new machine that had XP on it, kept it for 48 hours and returned it. Once I realized that it wouldn't connect to the my NT servers unless I spent another $200 I was ticked. Especially since this meant I actually lost capability comparied to Win98.

I could go on and on but the bottom line desktop computers are not meant to be pro audio platforms. I am sick of rebooting, memory leaks, poorly written drivers and bloatware. The computer industry including Apple has become a big science project.

I am not sure the Mac is that much better but I am about ready to take my 9 PC's and dump them in the bay. :)

Go with the Mac.

Lee

As with most everything I comment on, I see the Mac or PC debate as a political question. :D he he he. Mac is the computer of the aristocratic elitists and the establishment status quo, while PC's are the machines of the masses. If you want to spend more money than you need to, buy a Mac (and Pro Tools). The people who build Macs (remember they are only built by one company in one location) live in the most expensive place on the planet to reside and just have no concept of how much $2500 is. (same thing goes for Digidesign) Sh*t, that's what they pay for rent each month. If you need to be cost conscience and get the most real performance per dollar you can then a PC is what you want. These are built in the "rest of the world" other than Palo Alto CA. and the people who build them are as varied as the types of breakfast cereal at the local Piggly Wiggly! pg is right in that it also depends on which hardware and software you choose. If you think your going to be going with MOTU hardware or Pro tools package then Mac is what those run on. Cubase and Nuendo however will operate wonderfully on a PC. This is one of the hardest decisions I have ever had to make regarding buying recording gear. It took months of researching to find the right solutions and I still made several mistakes that probably cost me 5 or $600! You almost have to be willing to go through your first system as a learning experience and know you are going to waste some money figuring out what is what. For me it was a step I decided I needed to take to prevent my becoming a dinosaur in the recording business. The up side to this is if you decide on a PC you have this wonderful Forum called RO where you can directly contact the best PC tech on the planet! (I mean that) Follow the tweaks guide that OPUS has set out and you will be cruisin' the DAW autobahn at 125 mph in no time at all! … Fats
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:w:

...and remember that if your pc daw has a lot of dsp processing in pci cards, avoid raid and scsi systems, as they will bottleneck your pci bus.
today an ata 100 channel dedicated to only audio hd's is capable of a huge amount of data, not to mention ata 133.....
if you run totally native, it has less influence.

I have both, peecees and Macs. This is an OLD debate, and needless to say, anytime a Mac versus peecee thread arises, you'll get OPINIONS from both sides of the tracks. A couple of years ago, this debate was valid, with both platforms having their own distinct advantages. However, as time goes on, Mac (Apple) has slipped too far behind in the "war" to any-longer be a competitor.
Apple is in dire financial trouble. In the past few years, they've made some deadly decisions regarding their product line. Rather than having focused on their strong point, high-end graphics and audio, they chose to try to appeal to the home consumers with the Cube, the new iMac, and the even-newer eMac. Given the state of the economy, people just haven't been willing to spend twice as much for a purposely-crippled Macintosh as they would a powerful peecee with expandability and upgradeability.
Apple's financial state is severe, and they've given no signs of having the ability to pull out of it. They're product line is falling further and further behind the technologies available in the peecee platform, which translates to less and less people making the "Mac" decision.
They really hung themselves with OSX. It's lack of reverse-compatibility with software which was designed to run on pre-OSX has proven to be a catastrophe. Did Microsoft have to bundle Windows 98 with XP so that it would be useable? No. There was already a lot less software for Mac than peecee, and OSX just widened that margin. Which logically leads us to the other point to consider when choosing your DAW platform...
Given the state of current peecee technology, and it's rate of growth, host-based DAWs now hold the future of audio recording. There is a lot more DAW hardware and software available for the peecee platform than the Mac, and that gap will continue to widen as Macs fall further and further behind the computing power of peecees. Ahhh, but many companies have their products available for both platforms, you say! Well, that's true, but have you noticed that MOST of those products work better on a peecee? Macs were usually an afterthought (Nuendo as a typical example).
This whole thing is not a new concept. It was "in the cards". Many of us could see the writing on the wall YEARS ago. If you search the very earliest threads on RO, you will find that this phenomenon was discussed, and this whole scenario was predicted, to the tee. Anyone with adequate knowledge and common sense saw what was coming.
In conclusion, my advice is that you take the afore-mentioned situation of the computing platform "wars", apply your own knowledge and common sense, predict where this whole thing will be in two years (you DO want your DAW to last for that long, right?), and make your own educated decision. I'll just give you one little clue ... BUY A PEECEE!

SOS,
Great points! You Da' Man!! Fats :D !

Ah, Fats, you sly old fox, you beat the Macsteroids to the punch!

Macsteroids: Take a lesson from Fats. Whenever there is the slightest possibility that a political discussion could break out, immediately elbow your way to the table and grab the White Hat and screw it firmly onto your forehead wrinkles -- thereby declaring yourself "The First To Be Concerned" and therefore "The Good Guy" and "The Man Of The People".

Hey. Colored hats and rhetoric notwithstanding, Macs are not Republican swine milking the masses of their lifeblood.

They are only computers.

And PC Land is no Democracy, either. Unless, of course, the PC peons decide to finally raise an army and storm the Great Halls of the Kings up in Redmond, Washington. Until they do, they are all mere chattels and cerfs of King William the Nerd, no matter how fast their Ps can C.

Or are PCs just computers, too?

There are people who attach baggage to these choices. I, for one, am so revolted, sickened and repulsed by Carl's Jr.'s idiotic TV commercials, I woudn't eat their food if they gave it away for free. So for me, it doesn't matter whether or not it's a better burger, OK? Like I said, baggage.

The baggage can be speed, interface, elegance, bragging rights, learning curve, access to cool gurus like Opus or your buddy, or, as in the case of one guy I know, deliberately getting a Mac because his wife taught PC skills at work and he didn't want her lording it over him at home.

Maybe you'll get lucky. PGStudio said, "i think u should choose what soft to use then choose the plataform. " Good advice. You will ultimately spend more creative time with the software than the hardware, so your up-front horsepower should be directed to software FIRST. If you are lucky, the software you choose will have made the hardware decision for you. If you are even luckier, you get to choose the hardware too. So, you crack open your own personal baggage, examine the contents, make a shopping list of what's important to you, and go for it.

And if you are reeeaaally lucky, somebody will wander in here and start another gee-whiz-what-platform-is-cool thread and you can drag your bags in and play mine is bigger than yours along with me and Fats and the rest of us.

Ain't this fun?

:cool: RW :roll:

"Once I was blind, but now I see.."

If the whole "Mac versus peecee" thing were a "baggage" issue, to be honest, I'd be slamming Microsoft left and right. I hate their "Big Brother" tactics and arrogance. When it comes to the platform war, I try to be factual and objective. Unfortunately, Microsoft is winning for the time being. As for the future...
It's still very early, as this is my long-term prediction ... keep your eyes on Linux, guys. Linux is now the second-most used platform in the world, AHEAD of Macintosh/Apple! The future possibilities of this open-source platform are staggering. It's only a matter of time before Linux DAWs are here, and the possibilities there are AWESOME.

Robert Wall (one of my favorite contributors) posted;

Ah, Fats, you sly old fox, you beat the Macsteroids to the punch!
Macsteroids: Take a lesson from Fats. Whenever there is the slightest possibility that a political discussion could break out, immediately elbow your way to the table and grab the White Hat and screw it firmly onto your forehead wrinkles -- thereby declaring yourself "The First To Be Concerned" and therefore "The Good Guy" and "The Man Of The People".

Hey I can't help it! I was born a "red diaper baby". :D Try as hard as I can I just can't seem to make the trip to "Rightland". I am stuck in limbo, somewhere in the middle. Sort of a "Republi-crat"! Oh well, we all have our own cross to bear!
Regarding the topic, when I am into my DAW program I don't see what machine I am using. It could be a Mac or a PC. It makes no difference. The only differences I have noticed so far relate to configuration and set up, speed /CPU power. But once you're in they're recording if you have a fast machine, all you see is the recording software. The only gripe I have with Apple is their price. I lived in the SF Bay Area for a large portion of my life and believe me there are a lot of folks there who don't understand the true value of money. I think this may be one of Apples problems. Good to hear from you! You don't show yourself here often enough. Don't be such a stranger. Fats
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Hi

Political issues apart :D ;) , here's my point of view: I've been working on both platforms for some time, and my real experience, myths notwithstanding, is that both are equally stable and they equally crash (fotunately not on me); as prices go continuously down on the PC side (a little too on the Mac side recently) and power keeps going up it seems that the performance/price ratio is pointing in the PC direction: I assembled a PC workstation for my Pro Tools 001 setup (yes Pro Tools, this could piss someone off, but I love it and it works throughtout my 12 hours working days without a hitch), and to get the same power on the Mac side the cost would've been about twice as much; there's something to be said about this: you can assemble a DAW yourself, but you have to be a little bit skilled or willing to learn, as it's not like a Mac that comes out ready right out of the box (some snobs say Macs are for those who "don't have time to waste on computer troubleshoothing, because they just have to make music", this could be true, I find time for both), plus you have to be willing to troubleshoot it and deal with an OS that's a little more "elaborated" (maybe we should start using this word ;) ), update drivers and get a little bit into the issues of system configuration; this is the "virtual" price you pay to save the money in advance; Macs come prebuilt and they make you pay for this service; granted, you can have somebody build a DAW for you, for an additional cost, but I prefer to do it myself, because 1) it's fun, 2) it' not that difficult, once I saw a frind do it I could do it myself, and 3) I like to know the tools I'm working with, so that when acciednts happen (and they happen) I can try to troubleshoot instead of unplugging everything and rush to the service tech that'll leave me stuck for days or weeks.

Then it's wise to consider the software you'll be working with: it seems that with a few exceptions all the most popular audio apps are now developed for both platforms, and Digidesign (who's been a diehard Mac company for years) recent developements on the PC side should mean something; unless you exclusively work with Emagic Logic Audio (and you are starting out now with it), chances are you'll be at home with both.

I didn't understand one of the previous posts shredding on the PC, claiming OS incompatibilities between NT and XP and such: I could be one of the luckiest people on this earth (at least not with women), but my PC DAW actually works, has power to burn, and I could say it smokes; maybe it's because I don't play games on it, or don't surf the net with it, or I don't stuff it with any garbage software and the likes: it's an audio dedicated machine, and please, stop saying PCs aren't a viable platform for Audio production.
Don't get me wrong I like Macs too, but getting the Mac setupI needed the first place wouldn't have allowed me to get all of those other things I needed to get my project studio running.

Sorry for being this long and I hope I've been helpful .

L.G.

20dB said;

Microsoft's latest XP %&%#^ really has been the last straw. I bought a new machine that had XP on it, kept it for 48 hours and returned it. Once I realized that it wouldn't connect to the my NT servers unless I spent another $200 I was ticked ...... desktop computers are not meant to be pro audio platforms. I am sick of rebooting, memory leaks, poorly written drivers and bloatware. The computer industry including Apple has become a big science project.

Lee, it seems a lot of your issues relate to having your audio machine perfoming multiple tasks other than audio. My audio PC is a dedicated for audio only machine. No extra software to cause conflicts and crash the machine. No internet, nothing to connect to NT servers. nada... not even a modem card. I had it pulled out! The machine (a PC) blazes! I'm up to 24 tracks now and I am running multiple instances of comps, eq's, verbs, chorus', rotary speakers, symphonic and sub bass generating all with a 20%CPU, 40% disk load at 6 ms latency (all worst case). It never has crashed and the only problem I have had is once the audio developed clicks when I would scroll rew or fwd until I increased the buffer size.. Fats

Gerax, I run Digi001 on a Mac G4-400, and it's not bad, for simple home recording. I've been using it for 3 years now.

and Digidesign (who's been a diehard Mac company for years) recent developements on the PC side should mean something

LOL, yeah, it means that Avid sees the writing on the wall, too! They know damn well that more and more people are going to spend $10-20k on a host-based rig instead of $50-100k on a Mix rig. Digi001 is a dinosaur. There are simply too many great software apps on the market, that when coupled with a powerful peecee, will blow the doors off of 001, dollar for dollar.
"DigiDesign" and "ProTools" are no longer the "only apps in town". With digital audio recording being so widely-spread, names like "Nuendo" are becoming well accepted. Thank God! Digi's long reign of terror is finally in check!

Ahaaaaaaahaaaa!!!!!

Fats , I see why Robert is one of your favs!!

By Cedar Flat Fats:Hey. Colored hats and rhetoric notwithstanding, Macs are not Republican swine milking the masses of
their
lifeblood.

They are only computers.

And PC Land is no Democracy, either. Unless, of course, the PC peons decide to finally raise an army and storm
the Great Halls....etc.

Touché!!

I don't know much about much but I do know the new Pro Tools for 'peecee's' don't move as quickly. There is lag when navigating windows and
operations, etc., compared to running it on a mac, not really a big deal but when you're used to using it on a mac it's a real drag. I'm sure digi will work that out
though. Also some of the plug-in's are not yet available from the outside developers. In time, no doubt they will catch up.[list]

SOS

I kind of agree with you, the 001 is starting to get a bit outdated now, in fact I'm planning to upgrade to a bigger, pro level system (it depends on how my business will run this year :D ;) .

Cheers

L.G.

The only sound advice provided so far was, pick the software and hardware then buy the system that is best for it.

If you go Pro Tools (my personal favorite) or Emagic or Motu, you will be better supported on a mac. All the others like Nuendo, Cubase SX (which is really the new Nuendo BTW) and...... oh yeah there aren't many other pro audio apps for PC are there, anyway go with PC.

I have 8 Macs and 4 PCs here. For my money Apple is many years ahead of Wintel in application, form and function. I use the PC's pretty much just to run Lotus Smartsuite which is required for a company I work for.

If you want my political opinion, I think that Microsft has squelched technical progress for close to 15 years now. I think the Apple platform continues to evolve and always comes bundled with the latest and greatest technologies (i.e USB, Firewire, integrated video editing, capture, and now DVD production). The good thing about PC's is you are not forced to buy any of this so you can configure a very low end system of that is all you need, The bad thing is thaty every time you try to add a capability )like printing for instance) it is a science experiment in software/hw compatibility. I have a few little goodies around here that will run on one PC but not the other.

Macs are already coming bundled with 1000 baseT ethernet, Firewire 800, The come with a Mail program that is not full of infections, they network to anything right out of the box, they import audio and create mp3's without a sound card, they capture and edit video and allow you to make a DVD right out of the box. And if you plug in a digital cam they will capture the pics without the need for a driver. All of this capability is supported by Apple directly.

Try adding video capture to a gateway then call them for support.

If you are good at DIY with PC's then you can build a greast PC tweeked just right for audio, but you need to pray that the peripheral hardware will all be compatible with what you have and that the drivers will all keep up.

As far as Digidesign goes, I make my living using an aweful lot of digi hardware and software. I have to say that Pro Tools is probably the most well supported and stable application I have ever used on any computer. Digi's hardware has made significant improvements over the years, and their customer service has saved my but several times in a very expeditious way. The other big advantage to Digi (besides the fact that the PT editor is extremely efficient) is that no matter what other kind of system someone brings in, whether 2", DA88, ADAT, or other DAW's, PT can lock to it and do a transfer with very little screwing around. Their documentation is also outstanding.

All of that costs money. But my Pro Tools rig has generated significant revenue since the day I got it. I have never had to make a single payment out of my own pocket in 3 years.

The pointless and unbased slamming of Digi is an old tired and pointless rant. You might not like the software but people should give credit where credit is due.

I personally would like to thank Digi for giving me world class products that make my work day enjoyable, fruitful and efficient, and for providing me personally outstanding support.

Steve

Well, this question again, eh! ;)

I bought a dual gig G4 after being a PC user for the past 12 years. I got mad at Windows not being able to have a music app open and play Winamp. I got mad at its drivers. I thought it locked up a lot. I wanted hardware that was designed to be used together. I wanted a box that would swing out like the side of my Mac box. I wanted all that hi-end, audio/graphichs mostly power.

I got it. And it's just another kind of computer. With a paradigm I don't totally understand. It locks up (no apple+ctrl+esc, either [or whatever it is]) as much if not more than my PC did. It's filing system/internal logic was made by artists for artists. I want it made by programmer dorks for everyone. (And I'm an artist.) I want it to know what *.* means in the Sherlock Finder. I want it to append extensions because it wants to. I want it to import files from the PC as readily as the PC imports files from the Mac.

I had to buy a 2-button mouse. It doesn't have a CD bay eject button on the box (only on the keyboard!)

Peak and Spark (put together) suck compared to Cool Edit Pro. And Syntrillium refuses to develop for Mac.

I don't use OS X becasue most of my software won't run on it, and it's a hassle to keep re-booting to go back and forth. So, I use OS 9.

All of this is to say: If you know Macs, and want to run a lot of Mac-only software-- great. Mine's for sale for 3 grand. Extra 120G HD in it, too.

.nick

Originally posted by millionVALVE:
With a paradigm I don't totally understand. It locks up (no apple+ctrl+esc, either [or whatever it is]) as much if not more than my PC did. It's filing system/internal logic was made by artists for artists.

I use both, I think they are the exact same thing except one uses disk names and the other uses letter symbols instead of disk names. After that its Disk:Folder:Filename

I want it made by programmer dorks for everyone. (And I'm an artist.) I want it to know what *.* means in the Sherlock Finder. I want it to append extensions because it wants to. I want it to import files from the PC as readily as the PC imports files from the Mac.

My opinion is it is made by program dorks for program dorks. Who wants to type c: or whatever. I don't want to know about file extensions. and by the way the Mac has always been able to import PC files, it now even runs windows networking, as far as I know the PC has never been able to import or read mac files without extra help.

I had to buy a 2-button mouse. It doesn't have a CD bay eject button on the box (only on the keyboard!)

I am with you on this one!

Peak and Spark (put together) suck compared to Cool Edit Pro. And Syntrillium refuses to develop for Mac.

I think they all suck. Cool edit pro is as bad as anything out there as far as I am concerned.

I don't use OS X becasue most of my software won't run on it, and it's a hassle to keep re-booting to go back and forth. So, I use OS 9.
[QB]

This is a very valid point especially if you are doing audio on your system. My Audio systems do not get used for anything else.

I live in a hybrid Unix/MacOS/WindowsXP world. I have written a fair amount of C++ and developed a few apps in my time. I love the power and logic of Unix. The PC never made sense to me because it seemed to make something that should be easy, very complicated.

That being said I really don't think there is much difference and one should pick the platform that runs the software they want to use best.

Steve

Steve!

Aside from my rant, this was (at least my original) thesis:

That being said I really don't think there is much difference and one should pick the platform that runs the software they want to use best.

To respond, though:

I am so used to pC's that my crossover (at home) was, and is, sorta less than glove-fitting.

The extensions/drivers issues, to me, are a matter of control (which I like) and the PC paradigm just makes more sense to me. The fact that OS X resembles OS 9 less is evidence that Apple feels sort of the same way. a) Go tell a UNIX guy he doesn't have control. b) Watch out!

My point about the locking up was thatI bought all of this "Mac Stability" nonsense, which is just plain, not true, percentage-wise. It's as glitchy/stable, yet in different ways. There are no magic bullets.

Since I have both, I am not a snob either way. My Mac is beautiful, and it can have several music apps open at the same time. My PC can search for newfile_*.ti? and find something. It can also keep things selected in an inactive window (fer chrissakes!)

My only advice after all of this is: use what feels good.

Period.

best-
.ncik

At some point some of us will be on the bus to heaven and some of us will be on the road to hell. It remains to be seen who is on what. (this is a metaphor for Mac and PC by the way not a religious rant.) Everything has two sides. This reminds me of when I was a teenager and we used to argue over whether FORD stood for first on race day or found on road dead! ..... Fats
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Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,Genelec, Hafler, KRK.
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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Usually, when peole are asking, "Should I go with Mac or peecee", it's because they're not experienced enough to know the difference. One of the most common nOOb questions that's asked is, "I have $5000 to set-up a basic home studio. What will I need? What do you recommend?", or something very close to that ...
Would you really tell this guy to go out and blow $1600 on a Mac rather than $1000 on a peecee that'll blow the Mac's doors off? On a limited budget, that $600 difference will allow that person to get a nice Mic (or two), an upgraded pair of monitors, or some other piece of important gear that he would not be able to buy if he bought the Mac. Plus, a nOOb will almost always start out with a basic system and then upgrade as he goes. He'll be able to do that with a peecee, but would be very limited in that area with a Mac. IMO, telling a nOOb with a limited startup budget to go out and buy a Mac would be terrible advice.

OH! And FORD means "Fucked-over Rebuilt Dodge" LMAO

If you need something short term, it's a toss up.

Long term? Buy a Mac.

Why? OS X.
--The audio and MIDI API's are being built from the ground up, and are being developed OPEN-SOURCE. No more buggy untested legacy cr@p.
--The new "Audio Units" technology will eventually result in commonplug-insacross MOTU, Logic, Cubase, etc.
--Extremely low-latency (1-2 ms)
--Mac OS X = UNIX based, and the UNIX/LINUX community is jumping on board rapidly. More than half the LINUX developers here at my company are planning to buy a Mac next. This can only mean better and better things.
--OS X wins the crash war hands down. My G4, when running OS 10.1.5, has only crashed twice in a YEAR, and I'm not even running the latest OS version.

So, in essence, Apple is thinking ahead and embracing the open-source community, while Microsoft is trying every way possible to limit, control, up-sell, manipulate, monopolize, and generally screw the end consumer with XP, offensive license agreements, etc.

And, as far as speed goes, my G4 933 has more power than I'll ever need. Sure, bigger is better, but it's increasingly not all that important. CPU speed is now increasing much faster thant the average user's demands on the CPU.

Originally posted by SonOfSmawg:

Would you really tell this guy to go out and blow $1600 on a Mac rather than $1000 on a peecee that'll blow the Mac's doors off? On a limited budget, that $600 difference will allow that person to get a nice Mic (or two), an upgraded pair of monitors, or some other piece of important gear that he would not be able to buy if he bought the Mac.

Some good points for sure but can you really build a stabile PC that is truly capable of doing real audio work for $1000?
I gues I am not sure. Recently I have been investigating building a PC that will be 100% dedicated to use with GigaStudio. Everytime I dig in deep the geek squad on the PC side says a rock solid and glitch free PC can be had for $1800 if you DIY. And they seem to agree that a commercial pre-package PC ala HP/Compaq etc will require a few mods and be questionalbel since you really don't know what peripherals they will package.

The price is the same to do the same work or at least within 10%.

Its a funny thinkg, I am really a Unix guy and I happen to think the Mac OS makes more sense, but I agree that is just a preference.

Another point on searches, if I ask my mac to search for files that start with Dog... it wil give me a result in about 10 seconds. The PC will still be working on it when I get back from making coffee.

I also agree that neither is especially stable, and both are severely out dated. Its amazing to me that Joe average fisherman or mailman has to actually understand an OS in order to use any personal computer now 25 years after they hit the streets.

Steve

Originally posted by SonOfSmawg:
Would you really tell this guy to go out and blow $1600 on a Mac rather than $1000 on a peecee that'll blow the Mac's doors off?

That's the sort of logic I bought into 5 years ago when I bought a P 200 for $700 rather than a Mac for $1300. I am now the happy (and much more productive) owner of a G4 tower.

We must remember that time = money. Any time you spend upgrading, tweaking, debugging, modifying, or troubleshooting a PC work with audio is time and labor out of YOUR pocket.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that a computer lasts 4 years, and that $600 is roughly what the average Joe or Jane is paid per week.

The question is, then, will the extra $600 dollars spent on a Mac save that consumer 40 hours worth of labor, stress and/or aggravation over the lifespan of the computer. That is, does the Mac save you 10 hours of hassle per year?

Easily.

The standard PC response to this is "but I ENJOY tweaking my system". Yeah ... and I like pulling weeds ... :D

Yeah, except a computers lifespan is really more like 16 to 24 months and the price of a useable Mac is more like $2500! By the time you get extra drives , memory and the Apple display it can be $4000 to $5000! The only reason I can see to use a Mac is if you want to run "Pro Tolls" (another overpriced product), if you do a lot of video work or if you want to use MOTU hardware (I’m sure there are more but I am a compu-tard!).

I didn't have that much problem doing the "OPUS tweaks" on my PC and like I said, I am computer-ly challenged. I followed the simple directions he outlined and it only took about an hour. The system has been nothing but stable and glitch free. I haven’t had one problem! I will work any time for $1000 an hour! I do use the thing solely as a DAW and perhaps that is the reason it has been so successful. However I would never want to have a production machine that has uncopyrighted songs on it connected to the Internet anyway. But for what a PC costs vs. a Mac you could certainly afford to have a separate Internet and gaming machine and a dedicated audio machine (as I do). I run tons of tracks with effects and dynamics (as much as I used to use on my analog console and 2" tape) at a very low CPU usage rate. And I have a machine that is way more powerful than the best Mac available (even now 6 months later) and I saved at least $1000 or perhaps even more. I'm not saying Macs aren't great but I am saying that PCs have arrived. …….. Fats
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Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,Genelec, Hafler, KRK, PMC .
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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I haven't read all of the obove stuff but it does seem to go around and around.

I've been in the computer games since Multiplan on CPM. Our first step into the Up-grade pit was to move to the new Multiplan .... But thins time it was on DOS. Thanks Bill.

It's a computer !

Be very aware of your expectations. Then chose your Software. The Software will chose the Platform.

I have used ALL system for serious music recording except Amiga and Linx. It all can work.

My advice is to find a friend with a system that works in the way you want. Buy what works NOW not what might work next year.

I could write a book on this subject but it would be out of date by the time I got to the second chapter.

My latest give away music machine is a MAC7300 with an AMII card and a Tango FW card and a second screen card.
PT LE ..Two Screens and a couple of Mic-pres and a Headphone Amp. NO plugs just record.

I am sure next year will have me build a few XP machines on new AMD hardware with both USB and FW periferals.

Most important is step one.
BE focused on your expectations.

Howdy

Its all a matter of preference and software. Presenting "facts" about MIPS, reliability, price, etc means nothing as any new computer will give you more than enough power to do what you want. Pundits on both sides will preach the benefits of their system with zeal. It really means nothing.

The software is really more important than the computer. If you like Logic, buy a Mac, if you like Sonar, buy a PC. If you want to be compatible with _everyone_ buy both machines. This is what I have done. Each platform has its strengths and weaknesses. Each application has its strengths and weaknesses.

If I like the way the Mac works, I'm more than happy to pay the price. Period. If I like the way a new Les Paul plays, I'll pay the price. There is no greater equalizer or argument ender than "I like it".

Every day, we recommend gear made by API, Neve, Fender Custom Shop, etc. Why is one's computer choice and method of working any different? I want to work the way I want to work. If I am productive with an Atari and "I like it" then the argument is over.

The first time buyer is in a quandary because, as with all things, you have to know something before you know something. Hire a Mac for a month, do stuff, see if you like it, then get a PC and try to do the same thing, see if you like it. Download demos of the software you want to use, see if you like it.

The only one with the answer is one's self. Once you say "I like it" your question has been answered.

That's the sort of logic I bought into 5 years ago when I bought a P 200 for $700 rather than a Mac for $1300.

Hmmm ... five years ago ... and in that five years, how many of the main components were you able to upgrade to keep up with current technology? More RAM, sure. Maybe a better graphics card than the original. But how about the CPU or the motherboard? About your only option is a third-party "upgrade", and they're not available for all Macs, and they DEFINATELY don't bring you up to current technology. Chances are that most people who have a five year old Mac still have the same basic computer that they had when it was new. If you want new technology, shell-out another huge chunk of change for a whole new Mac.

Any time you spend upgrading, tweaking, debugging, modifying, or troubleshooting a PC work with audio is time and labor out of YOUR pocket.

Upgrading: Interesting that you would include this! I think the majority would agree that they'd rather spend a couple of hours upgrading their CPU and Motherboard rather than the Mac alternative ... being stuck with the originals forever.
Tweaking: Both Macs and peecees need to be tweaked to run your Audio as efficiently as possible. This is not a "peecee only" thing.
Debugging: A good peecee is no more buggy than your average Mac. They each have their quirks.
Modifying: Again, that leads us back to upgradeability. There just isn't much you can modify on a Mac because that's Apple's way of ensuring that you'll give them another exhorbitant amount of money a few years down the road.
Troubleshooting: If you've bought or built a good peecee, you will be doing no more troubleshooting than you will on a Mac. At least if something requires repair on a peecee, parts are easily available, and at a much more reasonable price than Apple parts.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that a computer lasts 4 years, and that $600 is roughly what the average Joe or Jane is paid per week.

Let's NOT assume that a computer lasts four years. Let's assume that a Mac is a dinosaur in four years (because it IS). A peecee, which you've been able to upgrade to current technologies along the way, will alleviate the need for you to turn-around and dump $1500-3500 on a new one!

The question is, then, will the extra $600 dollars spent on a Mac save that consumer 40 hours worth of labor, stress and/or aggravation over the lifespan of the computer. That is, does the Mac save you 10 hours of hassle per year?

LOL ... If you call "the ability to upgrade the components in your computer, to keep up with technology, rather than watching your computer slowly become a dinosaur" a "hassle", then give me hassle.
It's not only the extra $600 for the purchase of your first Mac, it's the huge cost every few years to buy a brand new one if you want to keep up, reasonably, with technology.

The standard PC response to this is "but I ENJOY tweaking my system". Yeah ... and I like pulling weeds ...

And the standard Mac response is, "but I ENJOY giving Apple $1500 to $3500 every few years". Hmmm ... I'll bet you DO like pulling weeds. Personally, I'd rather hire a gardener with the money I didn't throw-away on a Mac.

:D :c:

SOS

RE: The Mac

I like it.

RE: The PC

I like it.

Originally posted by SonOfSmawg:

And the standard Mac response is, "but I ENJOY giving Apple $1500 to $3500 every few years". Hmmm ... I'll bet you DO like pulling weeds. Personally, I'd rather hire a gardener with the money I didn't throw-away on a Mac.

I don't want to fuel the argument but .....
YES I do.

When Apple shows me a machine that makes sense yes I will jump in and pay the money.

NOTE. I run both platforms.

9600 and 7300 were easy buys. These two machines are still making music. With and without G3 and G4 chips with large memories at a time when PC's just couldn't. Now using FW and USB periferals.

GAP. Will have trouble with MBox on USB and will not run OSX so it is close to the end of the line. You can still use last years technology to MAKE MUSIC.

G4/400 saw tooth machine is very cool and second hand very cheap.

Apple is now brick walled for speed and will find it difficult next year. Duals and Quads might be OK but I have a bade taste for Duals since the DUAL 385 (AMD/Intel) Get that!!! AMD and Intel printed on the same CPU chips.

Now were are seeing some very fine MB on the PC side of the fence with bios that does a fine job of booting from just about anywhere. FW and USB is getting well sorted on the XP side of the fence. I have high hope for the XP world in the coming year.

Yes I like MAC
BUT
I want to be first in line to give them a Kick.

Yes I like ProTools
BUT Hold ME BACK
... cos I want to punch crap out of someone this year.
SCII and SSC and MLCD and HD OSX and so much more.
The worst year since the Nubus pain !

Before I made my PC purchase, I thought I would want a Mac because I had heard that they were better for audio. I went online to the Apple store and put together a system on the “build your computer” page. By the time I had assembled a dual processor machine with 2 hard drives one gig of memory and an Apple Studio flat panel display (because I wanted the display to match the machine) it all came to around $5000! Whoooa! I then did some shopping on EBAY and I found a guy that would build a brand new machine that had way faster processing (Dual AMD Anthlon 1800+) with all the features for $1650 with Windows XP Pro installed included. I added a TFT flat panel display from Envision for $400 and there I was for $2050. Add the OPUS tweaks (free) and I’m home! $3000 to the good. Argue with that!
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Tannoys, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D ,Genelec, Hafler, KRK, PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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Nate,

My Macs ... I like em.

My Peecees ... I like em.

My whole point in all of this is that I would never recommend that a person new to DAW recording should consider buying a Mac. IMO, an OPUS ANUS running Nuendo or one of the modern versions of Cubase would be a much more wise investment. This gear would allow him to upgrade and expand as time goes on, as he learns more about DAW recording, and as technology advances.

Hard to argue dollars and cents across oceans.

Nate is right. You like it you buy it. EXPECTATION is the key.

Client wants to track into Alsihad. Go to a studio to post edit and OD and mix.

7300/180 + AMII + SSC + Tango. OK add the two LCD screens you just bought(get an extra vid card). Very portable system.
(note the Apple cimema display is expensive and is very good. I would not buy but video editors do)

This very same machine was making music about the time fo Win95/B . It has just finished recording the bulk of an album that went off for mastering about three weeks ago. I have just added the Tango and it is off to do the next job. Where are all the P1's and P2's in music now?

Here is Aust 7300/180 is just about free. AMII cards are becoming free
Tango=$130
Sarotec Hard Box with 60gig = $350
LCD = $550.

No plugs ... just record. Simple for a new starter.

This coming year XP1800+ and XP and PT LE could be doing the same job. BUT with plugs switched on. If you like plugs. I'm OFF them for the time being. I've gone retro analog on mix down. I miss the recall but that is this months trand. ;)

I haven't seen Fibre channel work on Windows yet. Even on an NT set-up.

SOS,
That is the only thing I would do differently. Go with the Intel chips and the Asus MOBO to accommodate them rather than the AMD and the A7M266-D. This is not because I am having any trouble with the Anthlon configuration but rather because it's what OPUS recommends. ...... Fats
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Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK, PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
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Yup, OPUS is THE MAN. Too bad he's not here right now, in on this. And that's really another major point...
RO members are in a very good situation when it comes to peecee DAW design and implementation. Having the tutilage of OPUS is better than any support that any manufacturer could dream of giving. The ANUS formula of DAW building provides our members with a ready-made selection of components that a LOT of people have had great success with. Once OPUS' tweaks are incorporated into an ANUS, it's one hell of a system. I've yet to hear anyone say that they wished they hadn't built one, and wished they'd bought a Mac instead!

I never liked computers until I found the Mac.

http://www.barefeats.com/

:c:

Wow...not bad guys...I think my name was mentioned about ten times during this whole debate!!
Ahhh...the debate..one that will go on forever in the minds of us DAW users...I wonder what Steve Jobs thinks when he goes to bed at night wondering if he'll ever be able to buy that major percentage of the company off of Bill Gates! :D It has a sick and twisted humor to it knowing that Bill Gates own a major part of Apple and gave Steve Jobs his role back to him to help bring Apple back to life! Yes my friends...Bill Gates has some award winning humor! Just like when he donated several hundred Ibooks to a Vermont School!
Buddy o mine is a die hard Mac user...He really likes to play games and wanted a PC to run this one particular game..can't remember which one it was...regardless...we had a spare PIII 450 Dell machine at work with Win98SE on it...I formatted it..installed XP Pro and tweaked it to hell and beyond(becuase I can! :p ) he brought it home...came in the next day and said...
HOLY SH*T!!!! That machine is freaken fast! He's now in the major decision making of jumoing to the dark side.....but there's a catch...he loves the interface(the literal interface) of a Mac...he likes the Icons...he thinks that working on a Mac is more beautiful than a peecee...WTF?!!! Who cares? When the program is open do you really pay attention to the icons on the desktop? Do the way that the words are boxed in on an icon really piss you off?!! :roll:
In the long run he knows that you can build a system that will cost 3 times less than a Mac and have more power to it...
Sos has hit the nail on the head with the ability to add or remove components whenever you want to..I wanted a combo DVD/CDR/W drive...poof...added it. I wanted to put some removable drive bays in my case...poof..added two of em...I wanted to get a cooler case design...poof..put the components in and was up and running in no time at all...
Look at this point of view...Macs have one I/O controller...everything goes through that one block...Peecee's have two I/O controllers to manage the data more efficiently...
ATA speeds...Macs only have one ATA100 and the other is ATA66....peecee's now have two ATA133 specs plus on board RAID on IDE and SATA(serial ATA for those non techies out there!)
Now..in regards to compatability...what version of XP were you on where it wouldn't access an NT server or workstation? Spend money on extra stuff to do so? Man..I run the IT at Apogee where we have some NetMax machines, NT machines, Win2k machines and a couple of Imac machines running all of our database and extra stuff and each machine I hook up to it always sees eveything...the biggest hassle for me was having the Macs see the Win2k machine hard drive data...have to do some friggen UAM console and Apple File Sharing stuff....
XP is actually the most stable and well planned OS...serious plug and play ability! Now, next year will be the year for Microsoft and Intel...
I'll tell you why too..PCI Express and the new windows OS...here is where the PCI bottle neck will be no more! With PCI Express you can set your SCSI throughput to 80MB/S if you so desire to!! Try doing that on a Mac! Nope..never will be able to...
I could go on and some times I do. This whole issue of switching between OSX and Classic OS 9 is hog wash...all programs can be installed on any OS as long as the software company has a little patch...for Mac software you need to buy a whole new version!! No upgrades either! Silly ain't it?
Ok...now as far as what you are used to...stay with it if you are used to it. If you feel more comfortable..stay with it. That's all that matters in the long run. We could spend an entire year arguing which platform to run on. As far as Alsihad being able to import everything...Nuendo is right about there as well..notice that Nuendo was out for the PC first.....why was that? Because the Mac OS 9 was not multithreading..PCs have always been that way for a long time!
So I've joined this great debate and am waiting some great arguments to come back to me!
I awaitith them
Peace
Opus :s:

Make up some real arguements guys.

A great PC case costs $150, an average one about $40.
When you upgrade your motherboard, are you going to keep your old and slow:
- graphics card?
- Slow ATA interface
- slow NIC
- slow/small drives
- slow and small RAM?
- slow CD-R?
Probably just gonna end up building a new computer. And that's great. As long as you go DIY.

I have about 7 macs around here. Some are more than 6 years old, one is almost 15 years old (should be an aquarium by now). When one of my machines starts to get long in the tooth I move it to a dedicated use. i.e we have a machine that is dedicated to storing and burning archived songs. One that is for scanning, one that is for photo shop, etc. My main DAW is an 867 G4 with HD2. I will be able to run Pro Tools HD on that machine for as long as I can buy hard drives for it. In 10 years it will still be capable of recording and processing 128 tracks of real audio with a world class editor just as it is now.

When PT Super comes out in 18 months (I am guessing) I will put in a new machine and move my current machine to an editing suite or 2nd room.

MY PT stuff in an Apple computer is simply the most cost effective professional recording solution I could buy when looking at $/track. this is all about the cost of doing business.

I also have a couple of PC's around that get do book keeping, and print CD labels. I will build a PC very soon to run Giga studio. and perhaps another one to use as a Linux file server. These machines will be stable and happy and capable of doing what I bought then for, for many years.

I like my Macs because the OS and the HW stay ahead of the technology curve. I like my PC's because they run lots of crappy little programs and I can focus their configs for specific apps.

I really am not interested in having the fastest CPU Rambus SCSI, etc. I guess if you are not doing 3D solid modeling or playing games there isn't much use for all that speed (oh yeah running a native DAW too).

Have fun. and buy what you need.

Steve

Real arguments? Please define real vs fake? Or are you saying that we don't have any argument?
Opus