P.s. That guitar is being played through a Rockman (for those who know what it is) but I'm not sure I'm thrilled with the sound of it/

It's that good huh? lol. I'm sure people are busy reading election stuff.

You can hear the groove I'm playing at the end. I'm curious to the drummers out there if that sounds right. I can't tell you what it is or how to count it. I'm still learning that stuff, but when I take the original drums out and play my own, that's what comes out. I kind of like the fact that it's so in time with his lyrics, but I would appreciate a real musician's opinion...

Edit - That's also about as complicated of a drum beat as I am capable of right now. I would like to do more fills etc, but I'm not there yet. I can play a fill by itself and add it after...but if I do it during, I lose the rhythm.

I can't comment because it's not my thing; I'm not familiar with what's good - or bad - in hip hop.
I mean, as an engineer, sonically it sounds "okay" to me, but with my limited (very) experience of producing or mixing in this style, I'm really not the guy to rely on for a concrete critique.

You need someone who is more familiar of this genre to weigh in.

DonnyThompson, post: 443175, member: 46114 wrote: I can't comment because it's not my thing; I'm not familiar with what's good - or bad - in hip hop.
I mean, as an engineer, sonically it sounds "okay" to me, but with my limited (very) experience of producing or mixing in this style, I'm really not the guy to rely on for a concrete critique.

You need someone who is more familiar of this genre to weigh in.

Sonically, I think you are being too kind. It's a little flat, but I'm not good enough yet to know how to fix that. It's an element or two of the song missing, not the sound necessarily.

I get what you are saying, if someone asked me for critique on their new age jazz track...I have no idea what it should be. For the sake of learning, can I try to break it down for you?

You look like a guitar player...how sloppy is that guitar playing? And does it seem to fit the song? I can redo it, or better yet, have my father do it (he's the real deal with the axe).

The rest of the track is pretty clean, and the vocals are pretty clean, I feel like the guitar has a little too much amp on it.

If that is you in the picture, you also look old enough to remember Rockman's? I'm speaking of them nostalgically, maybe they still make them. I haven't had anything but an acoustic in 20 years.

i don't think you are asking the right group of people. not too many fans of rap here.

I thought you were a curmudgeony old white guy - I expected "Freebird" or something of that ilk - certainly not this. Like Donny - I've got almost no exposure to this style of music - and it's not just a matter of taste - I'm not sure I even have a context on how it's supposed to sound.

I see what you are trying to do I think; a sort of hybrid of a rap track over a proper music track? I'd say the guitar sounds maybe a bit too thin for that - I think you need to make it orchestral/bigger. I also think you need to decide what you are playing on the guitar (what's thematic and essential and what's throw-away) and lock those parts in - everything's just a little too arbitrary right now to have purpose. Get those hooks in - and set them hard and forget about the chaff. The only other comment I can make really is how flat the track is in it's development/progression. I don't get any sense of build or dynamics - any development of theme or narrative. There are a few motifs here and there but they don't seem quite big enough to carry the song (which presupposes the song wants to be carried). It also kind of whimpers out so I think you need to woodshed this a bit and work out what you want from this track. What's it trying to be and say -- and is it being that? or saying that?

DogsoverLava, post: 443191, member: 48175 wrote: I also think you need to decide what you are playing on the guitar (

LOL....you caught that huh? Yeah, I'm a little lost lol.

DogsoverLava, post: 443191, member: 48175 wrote: (what's thematic and essential and what's throw-away) and lock those parts in - everything's just a little too arbitrary right now to have purpose. Get those hooks in - and set them hard and forget about the chaff. The only other comment I can make really is how flat the track is in it's development/progression. I don't get any sense of build or dynamics - any development of theme or narrative. There are a few motifs here and there but they don't seem quite big enough to carry the song (which presupposes the song wants to be carried). It also kind of whimpers out so I think you need to woodshed this a bit and work out what you want from this track. What's it trying to be and say -- and is it being that? or saying that?

TY so much! I understand exactly what you are talking about. I think I have a plan....

P.s. You phrased your critique remarkably well, I get everything you said.

Brother Junk, post: 443176, member: 49944 wrote: f that is you in the picture, you also look old enough to remember Rockman's?

Yeah, it's me. Old enough to vividly recall tail fins on cars. LOL

I still have a Rockman sustainor and a chorus/delay knockin' around here somewhere from the early 80's.

I'm gonna hook up my monitors and give this another listen. I'll get back to you. ;)

DonnyThompson, post: 443200, member: 46114 wrote: Yeah, it's me. Old enough to vividly recall tail fins on cars. LOL

LMAO!!!!

DonnyThompson, post: 443200, member: 46114 wrote: Yeah, it's me. Old enough to vividly recall tail fins on cars. LOL

Ok, this reference was so specific my sides were splitting I was laughing so hard.

But now I want to know how old you are? Your pic, and I'm being honest, I'd say 52?

It's taken down for now, till I make some changes

Brother Junk, post: 443279, member: 49944 wrote: It's taken down for now, till I make some changes

Brother J... try not to do that, for two reasons... the first is that it creates a "dead link" and that can affect RO's search engine rankings; and the second reason, is that because RO is a Problem-Based-Learning ( "PBL") forum, it helps those who are listening, or even visiting for the first time or two, to be able to hear and compare changes that you make along the way. It allows people to hear the differences between the tracks, and apply what you've done along the way to what they hear, and accordingly, what they learn as a result. ;)

I'll put where I'm at back up for now.

Technically, and I know this is my fault for posting it in the first place, I'm not supposed to release it publicly before he has the final copy. But I know the guy and it's fine for this instance.

What I'll do soon is bounce a copy w/o his vocal. It's the musical composition part that gets me. I can do drums (I like my drums on this one actually). It's the song writing part.

I've written a few songs that people have bought. One was bought by a label when they signed the artist. But it's sheer luck that I land on something that comes together. Like 1/10 things that I write, people really like.

So I started over....that's what you'll hear above. My drums (I played those on the ROlands, and then added effects) and a looped baseline that 1. I feel like gives the song a different vibe 2. That vibe goes with his voice well 3. His vocal has room to shine....he has an interesting voice.

Then I could do some more work on his vocal to make it even better.

The drums are midi...so I plan on adding some drops, differentiations etc. Right now they are just looped.

The original song key was Bbm. But the string progressions were Db. I thought I would be tricky there...but the whole thing....I'm just lost for a direction with it. So I stripped it.

I may just add some tiny stuff like samples, and make the drums a feature, and his voice a feature. I like the drums that much.

And you will see what I mean with the song....I can play a little guitar (well, if you heard the previous version you heard that) and a little drums....but I know very little about theory/composition. Not enough to make a song by design....it either happens or it doesn't. So if anyone has some very simple ideas, I'm open.

P.s. I think I notice this about Logic sometimes. Does it seem like it goes out of time around the :50 second mark?

Almost any Logic thing I work on for a long time, that starts to happen, or maybe I'm just crazy.

Had a chance to listen to it. I'm fairly knowledgeable about hip hop ala 90's early 2k style. Here's some thoughts.

Overall it's decent just needs some fine tuning.

The track needs a hook. Aka chorus.

I'm otnsure if that's what the space is between versus or not but those spaces are too long otherwise. I'd cut them in half.

To me the vocals either need more gloss or more grit, tonally it lacks some personality. So maybe some sort of subtle tape saturation or saturation pluggin gently for the gritty, or just a bit more 10-12k air for gloss.

I'd also try the typical thickening w a pitch shifter (stereo) were one side is +3-6 cents the other side is - 3-6 cents so the vocal sounds wider and bigger.

I'd also opt for a short delay maybe 1/8 dotted 1/8 or even 16th very subtly to help bring some life. Using a stereo delay you can 'dot' one side for some asymmetrical movement on the track.

The ad lib track should also have its own tone/sound IMHO. Perhaps a telephone effect or longer 1/4 delay, or modulation effect.

I think Jay-zs older records like reasonable doubt or hard knock life vol.2 would be good references for the vocal sound.

The musical track needs what's known as a 'pad' element in mixing. Some sort of a sound usually like keyboard chords ringing or a repetitive lick of some sort from the guitar. It needs something swimming in the backroud preferably moving in stereo. This is not to detract from the vocal or call attention to itself, rather fill in the track. You should notice more when it's gone then when it's there. For effect you might want to mute it the last verse or last two bars of the verse, or start a later verse without it and drop it halfway.

I can't judge the lows becuase my phone doesn't do lower than 2-300hz.

It's these touches that will bring it from a sort of static track/mix to a more polished finished sounding song. None of these suggesteions need to have the spotlight on them (at least not for more than a couple moments) rather if you add them like salt and pepper to the track, each just a little bit and subtle, together they'll combine for a more exciting listening experience.

I also suggest doing an edited version of the track since the N word can be sensitive. Growing up here where I did it's important that people understand yournusing it in good taste and appropriately. People in the know understand it's slang and can actually mean friend in some cases, but it's also a case of certain people may not think you or whoever has the right to say that either.

It's not a big deal but for the general public particularly it's good to have both edited and un edited versions. Either replace the word w a different one or bleep it one way or another. It's important to not sound crass. In other circles it won't matter.

kmetal, post: 443359, member: 37533 wrote: it's important that people understand yournusing it in good taste and appropriately.

Uhmm...Yeah... well...

I guess I'm of the generation where many of us can't find an "appropriate" use of that word, or accept that it can be said in "good taste".

Most of us Baby Boomers remember when that word was never said in a "friendly" way, that even if there was the rare occurrence where it wasn't said with hate or disdain, that it was still said with a sense of white superiority; but all too often it was filled with hate; with violence not very far behind.

I'm old enough to remember being on a trip with my parents in the early 60's; we traveled down south to take my grandmother to a family reunion of cousins she had in Mississippi - and stopping at a gas station somewhere in rural Alabama, where there were two bathrooms - a men's, a women's .... and then a sign with the word "n*****s" painted on it ... with an arrow pointing down a path behind the station... which led to a ditch.

But, I'm willing to accept - in the artistic sense, anyway - that the word has become more "acceptable" to younger generations. The world turns...

And, as a word used between black people, whether meant in a friendly way, or a joking way, or even in anger, I get that it's their right to say it to each other ...

But I won't lie, guys - I still wince every time I hear that word, regardless of its context or who is saying it.
It's my own cross to bear, I suppose; and being honest, I had a hard time getting past the use of that word in order to present any kind of sonic advice.
That said, Rap and HH aren't really my "thing" anyway, so even if "that word" wasn't in the lyrics, I'd still not be the guy to rely on for any helpful critique. ;)

I'm glad that Kyle was able to remain objective about it, and to weigh-in with suggestions for you, though.
He is one of the pro's here on RO, and I consider him to be a colleague and a peer - and without a doubt, he's absolutely a cat I respect; with ears and knowledge that I would most certainly trust.
I already have, on more than one occasion.
He talked me down off the ledge numerous times back when I was working on the last album project I did last year; several people here did...
He gave great insight, and was able to help me look at things from an angle I wasn't able to see myself at the time. ;)

FWIW
-d.

kmetal, post: 443359, member: 37533 wrote: The track needs a hook. Aka chorus.

I'm so sorry....I forgot to mention I have a girl who will sing the hook. She is amazing. I basically give her the song when it's her turn, and she will write the melody, lyrics, everything, just based on what is there. That's why there are those 8 bar voids. Sorry all.

kmetal, post: 443359, member: 37533 wrote: I'm otnsure if that's what the space is between versus or not but those spaces are too long otherwise. I'd cut them in half.

Nope, you are right, that's what they are for.

kmetal, post: 443359, member: 37533 wrote: To me the vocals either need more gloss or more grit, tonally it lacks some personality. So maybe some sort of subtle tape saturation or saturation pluggin gently for the gritty, or just a bit more 10-12k air for gloss.

Awesome K! I will try that for sure. Today in fact. Does any specific plug in for this situation come to mind? I have a few, but I'm always interested in finding out what other people use.

kmetal, post: 443359, member: 37533 wrote: I'd also try the typical thickening w a pitch shifter (stereo) were one side is +3-6 cents the other side is - 3-6 cents so the vocal sounds wider and bigger.

This is great stuff, bc you called it "typical" and I've never heard of it. I get the idea though

kmetal, post: 443359, member: 37533 wrote: I'd also opt for a short delay maybe 1/8 dotted 1/8 or even 16th very subtly to help bring some life. Using a stereo delay you can 'dot' one side for some asymmetrical movement on the track.

I've also never heard of/tried this!!

kmetal, post: 443359, member: 37533 wrote: The musical track needs what's known as a 'pad' element in mixing. Some sort of a sound usually like keyboard chords ringing or a repetitive lick of some sort from the guitar. It needs something swimming in the backroud preferably moving in stereo. This is not to detract from the vocal or call attention to itself, rather fill in the track. You should notice more when it's gone then when it's there. For effect you might want to mute it the last verse or last two bars of the verse, or start a later verse without it and drop it halfway.

Yeah, the track you heard, I stripped everything out. I went through the song and wrote down every progression etc...and I think DogsoverLava was correct. I need to strip it down and start over with more intention. I just through that bass line in there bc I like the contrast with his voice. But I get what you mean, there needs to be a melody and hook. I just wasn't happy with what I had.

kmetal, post: 443359, member: 37533 wrote: I also suggest doing an edited version of the track since the N word can be sensitive. Growing up here where I did it's important that people understand yournusing it in good taste and appropriately. People in the know understand it's slang and can actually mean friend in some cases, but it's also a case of certain people may not think you or whoever has the right to say that either.

It's not a big deal but for the general public particularly it's good to have both edited and un edited versions. Either replace the word w a different one or bleep it one way or another. It's important to not sound crass. In other circles it won't matter.

I hear ya K. That's the exact discussion I had with the artist. That's why you only hear the N word (and i noticed the P word) bc they are easily edited.

If you mean I should have edited it for here, I can see your point. If people are offended, it's my fault. I assumed most people were over it by now. But the only reason he is not saying cuss, after cuss, after cuss, is because I told him he needs to make some material that can be radio edited. If anyone was offended I apologize. If Brizzle was white, I would feel very differently about it.

DonnyThompson, post: 443369, member: 46114 wrote: I guess I'm of the generation where many of us can't find an "appropriate" use of that word, or accept that it can be said in "good taste".

I see where you are coming from, and I understand your viewpoint. My opinion is, I hear the word in use, on a regular basis, that has absolutely no racist intent, or effect. Both parties are smiling as it's said, so the word in those instances, obviously has a different meaning. Languages change and evolve, and words and their meanings change and evolve. There are no exceptions to that, and I don't see why this word should be a forced exception. You can't force it. I also see a differentiation between who can use it and who can't and I don't see that as a double standard, or a "problem" that I can't work around. I'm not black, so I just don't say it, ever. I hear the argument made sometimes that, if it's a bad word, nobody should say it. Almost like an "equal penalty for all." So if white people can't say it, then black people shouldn't say it. Which, by the same rule, = "If black people can say it, then white people should be able to say it." Imo, both of those arguments are non-starters that skip a whole lot of history.

When I hear that, what I hear is white people, telling black people, what they should/shouldn't say, and how they should or shouldn't feel, about a word that white people, spent our entire lives on the other side of. It's not my place to tell Indians how they should feel about "Redskins" or any group to feel about any word. Bc I find it ugly, doesn't mean that they also should. Or that the meaning they have given it, is invalid. I mean, think about how that looks to the people on the other side. It comes across like, "No, you non-white people don't choose when or where that word is appropriate, we do. We always have, and we always will." That is what I mean when I say I'm not in the habit of telling people what they can/can't say. Outside of just blunt force racism, which I usually don't see anyway, who am I to tell any group what they can/cannot say. Or what a word should mean, in their culture. It's not my, or anyone outside that culture imo, place to say. I think K, Donny and I are on the same page, just expressing the thought differently.

I think it's admirable Donny that you feel so strongly that it's an ugly word. I don't use it. But all of the above is why I don't have a problem when black people say it to each other or use it in their art. It's the same phenomenon almost everywhere you look. I hear female friends call either b* or slut, but same scenario, I couldn't do the same...I'm not one of them.

Perhaps YOUR female friends don't do that...mine don't....but these are the social rules I've observed. Think of almost any group, and you can think of a word that is used in a derogatory manner towards them, which they will often flip to mean something different amongst themselves. Except for white men....who ironically, are often the ones telling other people what they can/can't say. But if you are not part of that group (black, women, latino etc) the "buddy" meaning of the word is not yours to use. I don't find it that hard. But I truly do understand why some people don't like it. I just respectfully disagree. Maybe this should be it's own thread.

Just to be clear to all, I'm not saying the word is "ok" or fine to use, or without consequence. All I'm saying is, I feel very strongly (and logically imo) that it's not my place to say. I'm not offended that this was brought up, or that people feel how they feel. But, that's how I feel. And to kmetal and DonnyThompson , I think your explanations as to why you feel how you feel were very good. A lot of people have not had that experience, which I think leads to the use of the word.

And I appreciate your willingness to offer suggestions despite different artistic opinions. I'm not a fan of the word either.

Brother Junk, post: 443374, member: 49944 wrote: Awesome K! I will try that for sure. Today in fact. Does any specific plug in for this situation come to mind? I have a few, but I'm always interested in finding out what other people use.

Slate vtm could help, waves rennessince eq, some of the many saturation pluggins out there.

Brother Junk, post: 443374, member: 49944 wrote: This is great stuff, bc you called it "typical" and I've never heard of it. I get the idea though

It dates back from the days of the eventide harmonizer. I didn't learn how common it was until I started working at the studio.

As far as the lyrics go, it's not so much about freedom but being aware of consequence and perception. As producer it's the persons job to make the artist aware of how this would be perceived and how it limits or doesn't thentraget audience and potential placement / use of the song.

In the grand scheme of things given the genre it's not a big deal. As far as radio play or other usages there needs to be an edited version.

kmetal, post: 443375, member: 37533 wrote: As far as the lyrics go, it's not so much about freedom but being aware of consequence and perception. As producer it's the persons job to make the artist aware of how this would be perceived and how it limits or doesn't thentraget audience and potential placement / use of the song.

I hear you. He has gotten the "talk" on many, many, occasions. I think we've done 5 or 6 songs together, and I've given him feedback on a lot of his stuff.

The reason that this is the only objectionable word in the song is because that is him, toning it down. This entire project started as an idea for a song I had, and he was going to try his hand at using less profanity, to make a more radio friendly track.

Most of the time, when I offer suggestions for stuff like this, it isn't given a whole lot of attention. But this guy will actually listen to what I say and try to grow. But anyway, he gave me the vocals thinking it was 100% radio friendly. So, you can imagine what his baseline level profanity is.

kmetal, post: 443375, member: 37533 wrote: In the grand scheme of things given the genre it's not a big deal. As far as radio play or other usages there needs to be an edited version.

That is the goal...it's just the last step when I have done it in the past.

I'm upstairs now fiddling with your suggestions....and seriously, TY!!!!!!!

Song has been edited. I apologize for any ill effect from not doing that in the first place.

As far as social commentary goes, as a white person I feel it's wrong for a bunch of white guys to discuss the merits and language of someone's art and expression (which includes use of words) from the context of social validity. I do find it okay to discuss the merits commercially but I'm aware that I don't fully know what the market for these songs are and how consumer behavior in those demographics is affected by language. Certainly we are not hostage to Walmart anymore and the idea of bastions of white parents being gatekeepers to music consumption for the great lucrative white hoard of suburban youth is pretty much a fiction now - they can't keep kids from listening to explicit rap any easier than they can trying to limit their exposure to porn. Parents lots the control of content many many years ago. I guess you'd need to go to Atlanta and see what gets played in the clubs and on the air there to know what to do.

I don't have a problem with words in music. Words often are the last thing that actually effect me. I try very hard not to get caught up in the drama of what someone said, of anything, so I guess that carry's over into how I appreciate a song. Words often don't really mean much, the music say's a lot more to me than words. As a producer or mixer, I think its important to be disconnected from that area of my job.

DogsoverLava, post: 443404, member: 48175 wrote: As far as social commentary goes, as a white person I feel it's wrong for a bunch of white guys to discuss the merits and language of someone's art and expression

To be clear, I wasn't going after anyone, or judging anyone, either - not for for the lyrical content, not even for their personal beliefs... and, I do realize that the world turns, and that the acceptance of certain vocabulary changes over time.

I was just giving my own opinion on it, and how I feel about the word in general. It's not something I can really help, it's like an involuntary "wince" that happens when I hear it, regardless of context.
Maybe it's a generational thing? I dunno... perhaps it's because I recall a time very vividly in this country when that word had very different connotations than it does today.

At the same time, I recognize that art has its own set of rules ( which in some cases can mean no rules at all)... either way, it's certainly not for me to dictate what those should - or shouldn't - be.
I think most people here on RO know me well enough by now to know that I'm totally against censorship. Dictating the "acceptable" from "unacceptable" is a slippery slope, because where does it stop?

I think 'most' artists in general subscribe to the same self-censorship theory that I have; the belief that it is completely up to the listener, reader, or watcher to choose for themselves what they consume.
We can all self-censor ourselves without affecting the rights of others; actually, it's really quite simple:
We can change the TV or Radio station, or close the book, or turn off the song, or not buy the magazine ...and we can do all of that by ourselves, without legislating our own morals and values onto others ... ;)

FWIW
-d.

Donny I'm actually right beside you there in terms of how I feel and react to that word. I was born in 69 and grew up in a post civil rights world in Canada and growing up I never heard that word uttered by any of my peers. It was so verboten and obviously villainous to us. I hate how prevalent its usage is today and how freely it flies off the tongues of young people. Far from being robbed of its power I feel it's used more as a specified vernacular of hate a derision where before it was an associated vernacular of hate and derision. (whereas it was once institutionalized it's now personalized). How we managed to break its casual and institutionalized usage from our culture and yet ramp up it's specific and personalized use is beyond me. You watch YouTube videos whereever there are kids in conflict -- even exclusively white kids from the North West -- fighting in playgrounds and spitting that word at each other.... it hurts me.

I commented only because I was aware of the optics of what a bunch of old white guys discussing its use looks like.

I could care less what lyrics are in the song as far as self expression goes. Lol i listen to metal, I know all about it.

I worked at a night club, have had black friends, used the N word right along side them in a friendly manner.

That ain't my point.

All I'm saying is as a producer you have to just make a conscious decision with reguard to the lyrics if they are suggestive violent or profane. It effects the target audience of the song. You roll with it, or you change the lyrics, or you make two versions.

I've had multiple black hip hop artists have me edit the swears and stuff from their songs for the 'radio' version. I've had a white artist/engineer loose work from the same kid for using the N word in his own songs.

I again could personally care less, I understand art and culture. I also understand business. And in buisness first impression is everything and it's your job as an artist or producer to deliver the product in its best light.

Some college radio will play swears and slurs others won't.

All I was saying was be aware of the potential and make a decision based on it. Beyond that it's no skin off my teeth, it doesn't represent me. Same as when I'm engineering the stuff. It's ny job to hit record and bring the artists vision to light.

If you ask me there's too much 'recreational outrage' and censorship in general. That said emimen did very well as an artist never using the N word in lyrics that I can recall.

All I was after was awareness and making a concious decision. Beyond that having grown up in a jam packed little crime laden city, I've heard that stuff many many times. I also know there's a time and a place for it.

All sucesfull hip hop songs with profanity have radio edits if that's their intended placement. If the intended placement is a documentary on inner city gang violence the edited version would actually be innaproparite.

I'm not here to make social comantary, or lecture, or censor. Just to adress a potential issue that needs to have a decision made.

DonnyThompson, post: 443406, member: 46114 wrote: To be clear, I wasn't going after anyone, or judging anyone, either - not for for the lyrical content, not even for their personal beliefs... and, I do realize that the world turns, and that the acceptance of certain vocabulary changes over time.

I can see how you would think that Donny, but having read all the responses here, nobody was thinking that. I think everyone just wants to add something they think beneficial.

Your original response was very well worded. I, and everyone else here w/o a reading disability, understood exactly what you meant.

DogsoverLava, post: 443404, member: 48175 wrote: As far as social commentary goes, as a white person I feel it's wrong for a bunch of white guys to discuss the merits and language of someone's art and expression (which includes use of words) from the context of social validity.

I agree. It's very dismissive. Whites don't own language or the world...they just act like they do (joke).

DogsoverLava, post: 443404, member: 48175 wrote: I do find it okay to discuss the merits commercially but I'm aware that I don't fully know what the market for these songs are and how consumer behavior in those demographics is affected by language.

Again I agree. I think this is what Kyle was mostly getting at.

DogsoverLava, post: 443404, member: 48175 wrote: Parents lots the control of content many many years ago. I guess you'd need to go to Atlanta and see what gets played in the clubs and on the air there to know what to do.

3rd time, I agree. Trying to stop this train now, is not possible. They couldn't do it with a steam roller and all the "exlpicit lyrics" tapes/cd's of the time (whenever that steam roller thing happened. Around the era of 2 Live Crew) In fact, they just made it worse. You know what I did after I saw that steam roller event? I bought a bunch of those tapes/cd's that they steam rolled. I was young, I was the person they wanted to protect....it just made me want to see what the big deal was...and growing up where I grew up...I didn't see one. (My parents did...that Columbia House box didn't stay hidden very long)

I think context might go a long way here too. Where I grew up (Lowell MA!!!) white people are the minority. It's actually mostly Cambodian, Laotian (sp?) Latino, and African immigrants. In 2016 it shows about half the population as being white now...however, that's counting EVERYONE. There is a large section of Lowell called Belvidere that is almost exclusively populated by old white people (I'm white also). But living there as a young person, I was outnumbered, pssh, 15 to 1?

So when you talk to the minorities, at least in MA, about things like this, they feel it's extremely dismissive for white people to start calling them names....and then when the people take that word and change the meaning, white people all of a sudden say they can't say it anymore. And I see what they mean. There is a strong sense of invalidation of them as a people. English is a language....the majority of people in Lowell spoke it, no matter what your color. Languages change. And what the feeling is (strongly so) on their part is that they are English speakers, but they are not allowed to contribute to the changing of the language...because they don't have the priveledged pigment. And from what I've observed, that seems to be the case. I see where they are coming from.

DogsoverLava, post: 443404, member: 48175 wrote: I guess you'd need to go to Atlanta and see what gets played in the clubs and on the air there to know what to do.

What do you mean?

DonnyThompson, post: 443406, member: 46114 wrote: I was just giving my own opinion on it, and how I feel about the word in general. It's not something I can really help, it's like an involuntary "wince" that happens when I hear it, regardless of context.
Maybe it's a generational thing? I dunno... perhaps it's because I recall a time very vividly in this country when that word had very different connotations than it does today.

I hear ya. I feel that way about graphic sex content in music. When I hear music that is overtly, sexually explicit...I turn it off. I just...blah...I don't want to hear it. I feel like it's just a gimmick anyway. If you had any skill, you wouldn't need to use shock value as your medium. I think the N word is different. Did anyone see Dave Chapelle's SNL opening? He said it about himself, Obama, a few times. And I think he is one of the greatest comedic minds of all time. But, he and I just grew up in similar places....it's just a word now for a lot of people, and actually one that many people use fondly. I am frequently called it....so, it's meaning there obviously isn't racist. So, music, conversations, or life, I'm not going to be the dismissive, elite, white guy.

I feel like Dave is a good example of how it has two different meanings now (he uses both).

It's a word whose meaning has changed, by the people who it was intended to opress. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but, it was kind of a smart form of civil disobedience. For the reasons I mentioned above. You can't have a rule that says "White English speakers decide the meaning of this word, forever. If we can't say it, they can't."

It just doesn't work like that...especially in a group that forms such a large part of America, and has been opressed for so long. When I talk to older people about this (black people) the response that I've usually gotten is they felt that the N word was a very small part of their marginalization. "That's the least of our problems" to quote a few of them.

To bring it back around to Donny's original response, it wasn't so much that the sign labeled them N*, but more so that they couldn't use the same bathroom, vote, sit anywhere on a bus, have any job, talk to a white person etc. And if you pay attention, it's almost always white people bringing it up on the news, pundits etc. And it's still the same thing...from what the small part of the black community that I know has told me...they would much rather have people paying attention to when they say "Black Lives Matter" than when THEY use the N* word. It's a word...it has whatever meaning people give it. And if it was a racist song, I wouldn't do it. But like you see Dave Chapelle above, it has a different meaning now.

This is a cool place that people can talk about something like this and not lose it.

kmetal, post: 443410, member: 37533 wrote: I'm not here to make social comantary, or lecture, or censor. Just to adress a potential issue that needs to have a decision made.

I didn't take your post any other way than that, Kyle. And I agree with what you're saying. I was just commenting how I felt about it, and that the use of the word makes me bristle... but that's not a judgement - I certainly didn't mean it to be.
( I probably should have just not said anything ;))

If it came off that way, I apologize. It wasn't my intent... not even remotely so; nor was what I said meant in a "read between the lines" kind of way. ;)

I fully accept that the world turns, that time moves on, and that there are things (and words) that were once considered to be unacceptable, that are now completely acceptable as part of the modern vernacular.

I apologize to everyone here if my statement was taken to be a "judgement". I sincerely promise that it wasn't. ;)

-d.

DonnyThompson, post: 443437, member: 46114 wrote: I didn't take your post any other way than that, Kyle. And I agree with what you're saying. I was just commenting how I felt about it, and that the use of the word makes me bristle... but that's not a judgement - I certainly didn't mean it to be.
( I probably should have just not said anything ;))

If it came off that way, I apologize. It wasn't my intent... not even remotely so; nor was what I said meant in a "read between the lines" kind of way. ;)

I fully accept that the world turns, that time moves on, and that there are things (and words) that were once considered to be unacceptable, that are now completely acceptable as part of the modern vernacular.

I apologize to everyone here if my statement was taken to be a "judgement". I sincerely promise that it wasn't. ;)

-d.

I read every post in this thread and nobody seemed judgmental. It's a weird place we are in right now.

P.S. Even if you are not a Dave Chapelle fan, he was brought in for the post Trump victory, bc he is such a massive influence in the black community. To bring some balance to the whole situation...bc for all you Canadians out there, in the US, people are extremely divided right now. I've actually never seen it like this. People are rioting...or parading, depending.

So, even if you aren't a fan of his humor, his opening is poignant.

DonnyThompson, post: 443437, member: 46114 wrote: I didn't take your post any other way than that, Kyle. And I agree with what you're saying. I was just commenting how I felt about it, and that the use of the word makes me bristle... but that's not a judgement - I certainly didn't mean it to be.
( I probably should have just not said anything ;))

If it came off that way, I apologize. It wasn't my intent... not even remotely so; nor was what I said meant in a "read between the lines" kind of way. ;)

I fully accept that the world turns, that time moves on, and that there are things (and words) that were once considered to be unacceptable, that are now completely acceptable as part of the modern vernacular.

I apologize to everyone here if my statement was taken to be a "judgement". I sincerely promise that it wasn't. ;)

-d.

No need to apologize D I didn't take any offense to your post or any of them. In fact I found your post enlightening (and revealing a diggusting state of affairs) its facinating just how few years back real segregation existed.

It's like our two generations grew up in completely different worlds with reguard to race interactions. As white kid born in '84 in a Boston suburb, it's amazing to me how relatively little time ago it was a deep divide.

It's also eye opening to the type of attitude that surely does exist in some sectors of the modern world and USA in general.

Socially it's interesting to look at things like poverty and it's effects on social separation and class systems.

I wish we could look at black slavery in the same way we look at say Egyptian slavery, ancient history, but we are of generations that is still seeing it evolve. Particularly interesting is the USA itself is the first self branded 'melting pot' society. I think as globalization continues and technology makes this world smaller we will see a much more congealed and unified earth.

If you look at my avatar it's a junior kimbrough record cover. I just loved how 'in the moment' or iconic the photo was. To me it really captures the essence of purity in those old blues field recordings.

As an aside I used to bartend and run sound at a night club 99% black patrons maybe 50-50 some nights, and there was no racism stemming from either side. Lol and I had hair down to my butt metal head style in those days. Most of the turbulence was based on gang rivalries or just general drunk foolishness.

It's a very interesting time we live in in history as a whole. When you look at say the Middle Ages and how relatively long it took for them to evolve culturally and technology wise, and the 'modern world' in the last hundred years it's an amazing study. I think we live in the 'technology age' and that we are witnessing the next phase of human evolution.

lol sorry to be a bit off topic, I could talk about these things for days!!!

kmetal, post: 443443, member: 37533 wrote: No need to apologize D I didn't take any offense to your post or any of them

+1

I grew up without feeling hatred or discrimination. Living in Oakland Calif, I saw it, but it never crossed my mind that I would hate someone for their colour, where they lived, music they enjoy, job they have etc etc etc..
Even saying this can be twisted into some reason to trigger hatred or more drama. Some people just have to look for reasons to hate or resent and so it goes. One day a hero, next day a zero. Its all part of being human.

About 10 years ago I was working on a deal with a very well known pro audio designer here. ... .... I was so excited about getting his preamp that I called him "bud" and he instantly reacted with hate towards me. In Canada, we refer "bud" to a Budweiser friend. A really good buddy, pal, bro etc. He took it as if I was calling him something very bad.

I kept going over our email exchanges to try and figure out what went sideways, when what seemed to be us having a really good exchange...

I finally called him and said, why did you suddenly stop emailing me. He said, you called me "bud".

Calling him resolved this but I learned a lesson from that.

Lmao!

International buisness is more prevalent than ever. There was a section of one of my classes in college about etiquette specifically for international stuff.

I think in general a lot of people will cut you some slack if they sense your trying. But I've seen interview online or wherever, heard stories, of blown big business deals dues to lack of awareness.

Thinks like handshakes, eye contact, and bowing, are not universally interpreted the same way.

It's funny that there's a certain art to even the buisness side of things.

I used to take commuincation for granted, but particularly the last couple years I've really come to realize that just about everything relies on it. Not just in buisness but all aspects of my/any life.

kmetal, post: 443448, member: 37533 wrote: I used to take commuincation for granted, but particularly the last couple years I've really come to realize that just about everything relies on it. Not just in buisness but all aspects of my/any life.

Indeed.

What was so ironic is he lives in South St Paul, MN and was obviously making electronic equipment for the music industry. Budweiser is an American (globally famous) beer and the famous Bud dog was all over the commercials. Yet, he was so out of touch and so full of bitterness that he would have missed the opportunity I was handing him, had I not kept reaching out.

lol Minnesota, 'ya don't say, eh?'. Bitterness is a tough burden.

I wonder if it's the gear designer I'm thinking of...

kmetal, post: 443450, member: 37533 wrote: lol Minnesota, 'ya don't say, eh?'. Bitterness is a tough burden.

I wonder if it's the gear designer I'm thinking of...

Great River. Wonderful preamp. I sold it because it never made me happy. Every-time I plugged it in, I kept thinking about how angry this guy was towards someone he didn't even know. Towards someone that was actually trying to help promote his product here.
No one ever talks about GR pre-amps around here but they are wonderful preamps.

I sold it to help fund the PreSonus ADL 800 giveaway (remember that?) , and it all ended up fun for RO members just the same. I turned an ugly memory into something better. Whats ironic is even that giveaway created resentment because someone won it... lol! People found ways to make something positive, negative.

One day a hero, next day a zero lol.

Well done.

Fwiw it wasn't who I was thinking of, I was thinking crane song. Mainly because it's the only designer I knew of out there.

I've heard those great river units are nice neve styled things. I've considered them as a 'someday' pre but now neve has re issued their own stuff, and I've since discovered Brent Avril.

It's strange to be resented for winning something up to chance. lol I hate you for winning the lottery!?

In the music biz there's so much hard work and so little recognition that there is a relatively small sector of bitter people and birnt out people. I always thought those kinds would be better doing something else since music isn't filling that appetite anymore. I guess at a certain point it's a point of no return. I always said when it's not fun anymore I'm gonna hang it up.

I've always been amazed at my boss/mentor's ability to stay positive in this buisness despite the huge risk and outlay and pushes and pulls he's experienced over the 30 years he's been in.

To be honest I've been contemplating just how much I want to invest financially. Particularly lately since the numbers are overwhelming and really an 'all in' affair. I think I've found a fairly decent balance where I'll work relatively uninhibited but still be able to enjoy other facets of life too. Modern computing has made a lot of this possible. (Insert analog gear is better here lol)

I'm just not sure I need to continue the 'all in, all the time' methodology anymore to maintain my skill set, and workflow.

Ya know I've worked some some mucisians who could care less about anything but the check at the end of the night. Worked with former million dollar owners who lives in a roach infested 1 room now. I've also met plenty of fuffilled mucisians who live modest lifestyles.

It's such a strange balance between doing what you love, and financial feasibility. I think there's a lot of people who perhaps should have kept it part time or a hobby. Many men have missed out on their children's lives becuase of the biz. Others couldn't be happier sitting behind the board hitting record their whole life.

I find tho more so than most other career paths there's a genuine sense of caring and satisfaction behind most of the people in the buisness that I've encountered. Maybe some bags under the eyes, but many genuine smiles.

I'm not a huge greatful dead fan but there's a quote/lyric that's always stuck:

"What a long strange trip it's been"

audiokid, post: 443447, member: 1 wrote: About 10 years ago I was working on a deal with a very well known pro audio designer here. ... .... I was so excited about getting his preamp that I called him "bud" and he instantly reacted with hate towards me. In Canada, we refer "bud" to a Budweiser friend. A really good buddy, pal, bro etc. He took it as if I was calling him something very bad.

I kept going over our email exchanges to try and figure out what went sideways, when what seemed to be us having a really good exchange...

I finally called him and said, why did you suddenly stop emailing me. He said, you called me "bud".

Calling him resolved this but I learned a lesson from that.

I lived in Hawaii for a while and quickly took to calling everyone "Brah" (a form of Bros, or brother, or "Brah-da") ---- I remember later when I was back on the mainland getting hinky looks from some guys until I was asked - why do you keep calling me Braw? (ladies undergarment). In Canada - Bros, dude, Bud -- all forms of affection ----- Braw -- not so much.

kmetal, post: 443443, member: 37533 wrote: It's like our two generations grew up in completely different worlds with reguard to race interactions. As white kid born in '84 in a Boston suburb, it's amazing to me how relatively little time ago it was a deep divide.

Boston in da house!

A friend of mine who is a rather opinionated woman from Seirra Lione told me once that black people have been using that word with each other since it was invented. The taking back of the word is not something recent. She sees it as the result of integration, which makes sense, bc things like that take several generations to really see results. And now, many white people are being exposed to it for the first time. Add to that, the invention if hip hop, and then it becoming mainstream and a lot of us younger people (is 38 really that young though?) became very exposed to it. But in fact, it wasn't anything new. It was just something that grew in popularity and then hip hop exploded it. It seems to make sense to me.

For growing up in my area, born in '78, the word had two definitions. One was ok, one was not...and if it was the bad one, you knew it when you heard it. Not amongst adults, but among people my age and younger, as we came into our own, ya know, 16yo and onward. I think a lot of it is just that DT (and probably most here) didn't grow up with those rules. It's a word with a lot of nuance now, whereas back then, it was pretty blunt.

audiokid, post: 443447, member: 1 wrote: About 10 years ago I was working on a deal with a very well known pro audio designer here. ... .... I was so excited about getting his preamp that I called him "bud" and he instantly reacted with hate towards me. In Canada, we refer "bud" to a Budweiser friend. A really good buddy, pal, bro etc. He took it as if I was calling him something very bad.

I kept going over our email exchanges to try and figure out what went sideways, when what seemed to be us having a really good exchange...

I finally called him and said, why did you suddenly stop emailing me. He said, you called me "bud".

Calling him resolved this but I learned a lesson from that.

This was in California? :confused:
I've absolutely no idea what the negative connotation to "bud" would be .. here in my nape of the neck ... err... neck of the woods, it's either short for "buddy"... or herbage LOL; and is used the exact same way as if you would refer to someone as "pal", or if someone from Australia or Britain said "mate". It's always been a friendly/affectionate term. I've never known it to be anything otherwise.

I use "pal" quite a bit here on RO... I hope no one has ever taken offense to that. It's synonymous with "friend".

DonnyThompson, post: 443457, member: 46114 wrote: I use "pal" quite a bit here on RO... I hope no one has ever taken offense to that. It's synonymous with "friend".

Never, always took that as a good friend or mate etc.

DonnyThompson, post: 443457, member: 46114 wrote: This was in California? :confused:
I've absolutely no idea what the negative connotation to "bud" would be .. here in my nape of the neck ... err... neck of the woods, it's either short for "buddy"... or herbage LOL; and is used the exact same way as if you would refer to someone as "pal", or if someone from Australia or Britain said "mate". It's always been a friendly/affectionate term. I've never known it to be anything otherwise.

He lives in South St Paul, MN
Hence, I never call anyone from the USA "bud" again for fear they would take that as an insult.