Listening impressions of Apollo plus other gear

Right, update on the gear acquisition issue:

I have listened to

• Apollo Quad
• Focusrite ISA One
• UA SOLO/610
• Peluso P-67
• Neumann U87 Ai
• Focal Solo 6 Be

I had a little less than 2 hours to listen to different combinations of the above equipment, singing different styles of music (Steely Dan, opera, Peter Gabriel, SRV). I had no chance to play any guitar through the preamps, but maybe next time.

General impressions of the Apollo were very good. The preamps are really neutral and clean and the UAD plugins sound truly great. But things really got excellent when we connected the dedicated preamps to the Apollo. That fact really showed that the UA people had made the Apollo preamps very neutral. I don't mean that as any criticism, but the UA 610 sounded really great for vocals. Changing to the Focusrite ISA One was even better! More presence and body somehow. I prefered the Focusrite to the UA preamp, actually. Of course, it helped singing through great microphones! Among the gear I auditioned the microphones were the only units I could not really fit into my planned budget. I understand of course that they are essential for a good sound, however I would need to find realistic alternatives for the Neumann and Peluso. Maybe someone here can give me some tips?
Anyhow, the sound of the Neumann was more even and "true" compared to the Peluso, which to my ears was a bit more coloured. Not in any negative way though. The Peluso seemed to have a bit bigger "push" in the upper midrange than the Neumann. Ultimately the Neumann sounded more like my voice, I recognised my voice more when singing through it.
I saved the best to last: the Focal Solo 6 Be. Wow. What a great sound! Solid, even and crystal clear through the whole range, which goes down to 40Hz if I remember correctly. No need for a sub there! Although I've been very satisfied with the Genelec 8020A's, I realised it's a while ago I got them and I was very inspired by hearing the Focal monitors. Frankly, I've had no other monitors so I've had nothing with which to compare. Even if I end up not getting the Solo 6Be's I have been charmed by the Focal sound. If their CMS range sound anything near the Solo 6 Be's I'd be very happy working on them! The CMS 50 or CMS 65 look good as replacements for the Genelec's.

So it looks like I'm preparing to more or less replace all the current gear (which is not a lot, I admit!) with new stuff. I had a long hard think about whether to get the Orpheus or not, whether to get the D-Box or not. As it stands, I think I'll go for the Apollo and add the D-Box later. Meanwhile, I really liked the dedicated preamps as well as the Focal monitors, so I'll try to get those too..
To summarise, I'm set on Apollo, Focusrite ISA One, Focal monitors (either the Solo 6 Be or CMS 50/65). I'll add a better microphone and the D-Box later, when I've sold my mother.smoke

That was interesting, thanks for sharing your review!

After regular searches for good deals on used equipment I found a one-year-old used Peluso 22 251 mic which I now aquired! I haven't had the time to test it properly yet, but tried it out before buying it and it sounded just fine to me. Tomorrow I will make some test recordings and hopefully I'll be happy and one less problem to address.:)

Sacred Eagle 2.0

At long last I have found the time and now hopefully rectified the kick issue as well as a few other small details in the mix of my song Sacred Eagle—like fixing a phase issue in the rhythm guitars I didn't notice before. This time around though I used the Waves L3-LL multiband limiter instead of the L3-16 Multimaximizer. No fancy settings, just a preset. I wanted to hear what it sounded like; in what way it differed from the L3-16.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0 by Serpentarius on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0 by Serpentarius on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]

Anyone care to comment? Chris?

I just love this! Steely Dan influence indeed. The world need more of this.

Okay, I'll just mention what I would tweak right off hand.

The bass and kick sound much better but I'm listening on headphones , not the best right now. will run this through my studio later..

Open hat > Its a bit overwhelming. I get the sound you are going for there. It was popular to have the open hat loud like that in the 70's. But I would tame it down. Personal taste.
Lead vocal is still a bit lost in the mix but I think a more gritty pre and an LA2A and 1176 would kill! You have a smooth voice for this so I'm thinking a Great River or Neve-like micpre would be awesome for all sorts of uses for you.

After searching I read he used Sony C800 with an LA2A or 1176 compressor. Also Cascade Mics say he used their Ribbon. Sounds like promo to me but who knows.

Neve 8078 - Originally placed in Motown Studios (LA), then owned by Donald Fagen. The Neve 8078 was the last of the "80 series" hand-wired analog mixing consoles designed and manufactured by Neve for high-end recording studios during the 1970s. These consoles are considered by many experts to be the Rolls Royce of desks and are highly sought after. Each console took several months to build using over 2,500 hours of highly skilled labour and top quality components. It would now be uneconomic to manufacture such equipment to this standard.

Found this at SoS

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.soundons…"]Donald Fagen[/]="http://www.soundons…"]Donald Fagen[/]

I wonder how your mix would far through my hybrid rig. I have a few LA2A's and 1176's. How many tracks are you running for this song?

Remy, help Serp out on his Vox? You are Neve. Listen to the track?

Well, that's why I am here: for the salvation of the world.smoke

Thanks for the constructive criticism, Chris. I really appreciate it. So, interestingly, you passed my secret test: I left the hihat that way—a bit top-end-heavy/loud—to see if you would comment on it. And you did! Actually, it was late and I didn't have the energy to bounce it one more time with the hihat more contained, so I thought let's see what he says. I suspected that you'd pick up on it.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Fagen article! Great. I've actually searched the web for info on what gear they'd typically use. With regards to what micpre would be good for my sound, I've had a serious look and have read up on the Great River, Warm Audio, Grace Design, UA SOLO/610, Focusrite ISA One and API. I'm sort of partial towards the three first ones I mentioned for a couple of reasons:

1. Sound
2. Design
3. Price

   The description of the sound for each unit seems to be what would suit my sound. I realise that the Grace micpre is considered to be a "transparent" sound, and I was thinking that even though it might not have the colour that would especially suit this type of music, it might be a more verstatile micpre that would also work with other genres, like classical music. I thought that if I want to record a recital with me singing classical stuff the Grace would not colour the sound as much as the other two. Maybe I'm wrong and if so let me know. Maybe the GR and the Warm Audio preamps would sound good on classical stuff as well?

   When it comes to design I don't mean the looks, but the form: I'd prefer the half-rack design rather than the "retro" look of the Focusrite and UA units. They are a bit too bulky for the limited space I have available. Hence, the API—with its 1U full-rack design of their channel strip—is also not ideal.

   The price of the GR, Grace and Warm stuff is what I can realistically get, without feeling guilty. The GR is the absolute limit, as it looks right now.

   Also, price-wise and format-wise the 500 series micpres would seem ideal, however I don't have a lunchbox, and I wasn't planning on getting one, although I did consider it for a while. I still have that idea in the back of my mind though, as a possibility for the future.

   So, with that said, I've read most reviews of the Warm Audio and it certainly seems to be the ideal unit for me at this stage. I've read Remy's discussion with the manufacturer on another thread here and it was very interesting and informative.

   Now, none of these units are available to me for listening, so no matter which one I choose to get I'd have to buy the pig in a poke. I've listened to the reviews on youtube of these units and they all sounded great. The Grace was certainly "cleaner" and more uncoloured than the Warm Audio. I kind of liked the sound of the GR with vocals, too.

   As for number of tracks, if I remember correctly the number of stems is 9 or 10. The actual track count is more like 25. Hey, maybe I could bounce down the stems individually, upload them to [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.dropbox…"]Dropbox[/]="http://www.dropbox…"]Dropbox[/] for you to download and you could mix the whole thing for the heck of it!

Ha! you tested me, I like that!

I have 8 Gig available on DropBox right now. I don't recall, do you have a dropbox account? If you don't, use our link to register. The basic package is free and we will get a credit to increase our space. win win.

We want to avoid bouncing down.
What sample rate is your entire session?
How large is it unbounced in stems?

If I remixed the stems, I wouldn't have as much control but it would be a great start, much faster and a very good test for you to see if hybrid is worth investing in.
Before you save the drum stems, can you turn the hihat down 3db.

audiokid, post: 395335 wrote: Ha! you tested me, I like that!

I have 8 Gig available on DropBox right now. I don't recall, do you have a dropbox account? If you don't, use our link to register. The basic package is free and we will get a credit to increase our space. win win.

We want to avoid bouncing down.
What sample rate is your entire session?
How large is it unbounced in stems?

If I remixed the stems, I wouldn't have as much control but it would be a great start, much faster and a very good test for you to see if hybrid is worth investing in.
Before you save the drum stems, can you turn the hihat down 3db.

Sounds great! I haven't got a Dropbox account yet, so I'll use your link. The sample rate is 44.1 kHz, but I'm not sure. I'll check. I also have to check how large the entire file is. You want the entire session with the individual tracks or just the stems? If you only want the stems I have to do a bit of work and collect them in a separate session. And do you want the raw sounds without any inserts? I need help getting you the files in the format you want them. I have never sent any files for remixing to anyone and don't know exactly what needs to be done.

By the way, it looks like I'm getting new monitors, a pair of Focal CMS 65's! I can just about fit them on my mixing desk.:biggrin:

Lets try stems for now, with all your settings, EQ, effects etc.
Save them all as stereo Wave and make sure they are all at lined up at 0 (zero) so they line up for me.

If you like the sound at this stage, you'll know if hybrid is for you. Maybe as a second test, I will remix the entire session. There will be a bigger difference for certain on that.

Sounds like fun!

To connect, I'll PM my account info.

PS

Cheers on the new gear!

The entire song in 11 stems is 786.9MB. I don't quite get how I could upload the stems without bouncing them to WAVE files. Am I missing something? Anyhow, I've created a Dropbox account now, so let me just read the manual and upload the stuff. Hopefully you'll get the files OK.

Just to continue the micpre discussion, I've also briefly looked at Vintagedesign M73D, which is supposed to be a Neve 1073 clone. It's apparently a Swedish manufacturer. Any thoughts on this unit?

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

I mean bouncing example: 96 or 88.2 to a 44.1 wave. I'd rather have the original sample rate your session was tracked at. Which you said your session was 44.1 so we are good! You didn't need to bounce down and do any sample rate conversions right? This is what I meant.

I see 5 files so far!

Drums
Guitar lick
Guitar solo
Keys
LexiconbReverb

I understand. No, no sample rate conversion. They are being upoaded as we speak—currently 48 minutes left to completion. smoke

Example of a Hybrid Mix

Okay Serp, here is is!

ITB [="http://soundcloud.com/serpentarius/sacred-eagle-2-0"]Sacred Eagle 2.0 by Serpentarius on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0 by Serpentarius on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]

Hybrid:

After a few mixes these are my choices:

1.) Less limiting more transients:
[[url=http://="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid[/]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid[/]

2.) Limited to the max:
[="http://soundcloud.com/audiokid/serp-centered-bax"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid-brick[/]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid-brick[/]

3.) Expanded, an example of what you could do on individual stems. But I hear some weird phasing that isn't the best but an idea.
[[url=http://="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid by audiokid on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid by audiokid on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]

I had a heck of a time trying to get the master as loud as yours without destroying the transients (that I was able to recreate somewhat in analog). I also felt there is a compression in your tracks that held me back. If I had the individual tracks I would definitely get it to sound much more open with a better center image on the bass, kick, snare and lead vox. I would also make the harmonies even bigger, wider and spaced out more.
Harmonies are wonderful in this song!
I would also group the stems different this time. Cymbals should be apart from the kick and snare, on there own bus. I had no control over them. Any changes to them, effected the kick and snare. Also the harmonies should be on their own bus too! Had I had control there, I would have used the LA2A's on those and the 1176 on your Vox!
Kick is a bit too middy as well, I would choose a different sample for that. Something with a bit more thud rather than whack and a touch of verb on it.

I heard the vocal clipping in the last section of the song so this tells me you are way too hot! Your "converter, mic, pre" is edgy in the 3 to 5 k range (needed a de-esser). I also found the vox a bit close on proximity. Back a bit would have been even sweeter sounding. I used a bit HPF on it. Took some woof out which tightened the the lower mids up in the song.

A song will have more space if you track lower on everything leaving more room at the final mix. Listening to your soundcloud, IMHO, The song is piling up on your 2-bus. This is where you will love Hybrid. It really helps to avoid this from happening like that. Especially if you have something with headroom like a MixDream or Dangerous Music [="http://www.dangerousmusic.com/products/2-bus-0"]2-bus[/]="http://www.dangerou…"]2-bus[/] ([[url=http://="http://www.dangerou…"]LT[/]="http://www.dangerou…"]LT[/]).

I would also record at 88.2. It will give you more sparkle. If or when you have a second recorder to capture your final mix (avoiding sample rate conversion), I would record at 96k. It will have even more sparkle.
Did any of the stems have compression?

You've got the right idea here for sure! You've done a wonderful job of this song. I'm really impressed! I love this style and your captured this to a T.

Summary:

I imported your stems, set some levels, used two UA LA2A's on the Vox Stem for vibe, rolled off a bit of bottom end (HPF) and used a de-esser at the 3.5k mark. The entire 2-bus went into an STC-8H for vibe, tweaked it with the Dangerous BAX, added the Bricasti at the end, captured to the second DAW and back to soundcloud.

I actually like less reverb than I added on the track but I wanted to space out the drums more so it was a trade off. I could have spent more time on this.
I would have liked to get more snap and this would definitely happen if we remixed it. Even if I spent more time, Had I had more time :) But its a quick example that I think improved your mix.

I could keep going with comments. Lots on my mind with this but I think you get the idea. I hope I've helped.

What do you think of Hybrid? One of the biggest improvements I hear is around the 3:16 mark where the harmonies really work.

At 2:16, would your vocal ever sound great if you held it out just another second and used a delay to tail it off even further.

And one more for the road.

Interesting how slamming it gets it sounding similar to your mix. Not my choice but it is the only way I can get it close to your mix without being able to adjust the soundcloud mixes of both of ours. No transients left now.

I can see how ITB or OTB can get very similar results once you brickwall it. That would make an interesting debate. duh But I still think the Hybrid is smoother but not by much now. Analog has a smoother tail right to the silky end. This translates on each track so the more tracks the more obvious this becomes.

At 3:17, the harmonies are more open.

Thoughts?

There ya go. Lots to listen to and think over.

audiokid, post: 395446 wrote: Okay Serp, here is is!

ITB [="http://soundcloud.com/serpentarius/sacred-eagle-2-0"]Sacred Eagle 2.0 by Serpentarius on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0 by Serpentarius on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]

Hybrid:

After a few mixes these are my choices:

1.) Less limiting more transients:
[[url=http://="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid[/]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid[/]

2.) Limited to the max:
[="http://soundcloud.com/audiokid/serp-centered-bax"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid-brick[/]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid-brick[/]

3.) Expanded, an example of what you could do on individual stems. But I hear some weird phasing that isn't the best but an idea.
[[url=http://="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid by audiokid on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]="http://soundcloud.c…"]Sacred Eagle 2.0-Hybrid by audiokid on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free[/]

Alright!! Initial comments: I really, really like the overall sound! The general balance between the different instruments is pretty much like in the original, which makes it easier to hear that the hybrid rig is separating the parts so that one hears the individual instruments much clearer. It's certainly a more organic sound, more alive and vibrant. The vocal level is louder and the rhythm guitars a little softer which is good. The backing vocal sound is a bit more the way I had them a while back, more crisp and clear. For some reason I wanted them more collected to the same spot in the stereo image, and so I went for that sound in the original mix. I really like the sound of the horn section! It sounds more like real players playing, than MIDI samples.

So let's comment more in detail:

audiokid, post: 395446 wrote:
I had a heck of a time trying to get the master as loud as yours without destroying the transients (that I was able to recreate somewhat in analog). I also felt there is a compression in your tracks that held me back. If I had the individual tracks I would definitely get it to sound much more open with a better center image on the bass, kick, snare and lead vox. I would also make the harmonies even bigger, wider and spaced out more.
Harmonies are wonderful in this song!

Yeah, I can hear even in your first hybrid first version that the attack of the cymbals is almost not there. In the brickwalled version I certainly hear what I didn't really like in my version either, and I tried to remedy it in my 2.0 version. Regarding loudness, frankly I just inserted either the Waves L3-16 or the L3-LL and used a preset—maybe if I'd spent more time on fine-tuning these mastering plugins the result would've been more subtle. I mean, a preset like "loud and proud" is probably not ideally suited to the material! So loudness wasn't what I was after, but I haven't had the time to really explore what mastering plugins are useful for my sound. I certainly don't want to brickwall my music in the same way many commercial products are. I want an organic, natural sound, not a processed, "effecty" one. The idea to make a wider backing vocal sound is great, which I certainly considered, but like I said, I opted for a more collected, less defined sound which I intended to complement the lead vocal rather than separate it totally from the lead. Maybe I'll try that idea in version 516...facepalm

audiokid, post: 395446 wrote:
I would also group the stems different this time. Cymbals should be apart from the kick and snare, on there own bus. I had no control over them. Any changes to them, effected the kick and snare. Also the harmonies should be on their own bus too! Had I had control there, I would have used the LA2A's on those and the 1176 on your Vox!
Kick is a bit too middy as well, I would choose a different sample for that. Something with a bit more thud rather than whack and a touch of verb on it.

I realised that this was going to be an issue you'd comment on: cymbals on a separate stem, lead and backing vocals likewise. Had I known we would do this experiment when I made the song, I would've certainly done that. But again, I thought let's see what Mr. audiokid can do with lead AND backing vocals on the same stem—what's possible with a hybrid rig?smoke I tried to remedy the whacky sound of the kick, like you said initally in your first criticism, but I realise there probably is a better sounding kick for this type of music. I still think the drum sound is better through your hybrid rig than my ITB effort.

EDIT: Another thing I remember is regarding the sound of the cymbals. I didn't like the way they sounded compared to the individual drums. They were too splashy and not crispy and silky enough, and they didn't "glue" with the rest of the drums. But again, at that time I wasn't aware of what was meant to be done by mixing and mastering, and I didn't realise that I didn't have to get the perfect sound while tracking & mixing; having put the cymbals on an individual stem and applied EQ and compression at that stage would've been the best way to remedy the cymbal sound, or at least one of several better ways.

audiokid, post: 395446 wrote:

I heard the vocal clipping in the last section of the song so this tells me you are way too hot! Your "converter, mic, pre" is edgy in the 3 to 5 k range (needed a de-esser). I also found the vox a bit close on proximity. Back a bit would have been even sweeter sounding. I used a bit HPF on it. Took some woof out which tightened the the lower mids up in the song.

A song will have more space if you track lower on everything leaving more room at the final mix. Listening to your soundcloud, IMHO, The song is piling up on your 2-bus. This is where you will love Hybrid. It really helps to avoid this from happening like that. Especially if you have something with headroom like a MixDream or Dangerous Music [="http://www.dangerousmusic.com/products/2-bus-0"]2-bus[/]="http://www.dangerou…"]2-bus[/] ([[url=http://="http://www.dangerou…"]LT[/]="http://www.dangerou…"]LT[/]).

Yeah, I'm today much more aware of how to track than I was when I actually recorded the tracks, which must've been at least two years ago! I intend to re-record all the vocals—lead and backing vocals—and do it in a more "sensible" way, certainly less "hot". Remember, I recorded the vocals holding the mic in my hand in front of the computer screen, which isn't the best way to do things, I know! That should also explain the proximity problems.

EDIT: Another thing regarding the "pile-up" on the 2-bus is that it is due to me not realising how to track properly at that time. I recorded everything too loud—without realising it—instead of turning the volume down on all the tracks and turning up the volume on the monitors. Hence, when I got around to recording the vocals, I had no more headroom and, compared to the rest of the tracks, the vocals always sounded too soft. So I kept pushing the gain on the vocals and tried at the same time not to clip it! I know better now...:redface:

audiokid, post: 395446 wrote:

I would also record at 88.2. It will give you more sparkle. If or when you have a second recorder to capture your final mix (avoiding sample rate conversion), I would record at 96k. It will have even more sparkle.
Did any of the stems have compression?

I sure did! Sorry about that. But we agreed to keep all the effects in the WAVE files so that's what I did. Maybe it would've been better to take all effects off the stems. I will certainly record at 88.2.

audiokid, post: 395446 wrote:

You've got the right idea here for sure! You've done a wonderful job of this song. I'm really impressed! I love this style and your captured this to a T.

Summary:

I imported your stems, set some levels, used two UA LA2A's on the Vox Stem for vibe, rolled off a bit of bottom end (HPF) and used a de-esser at the 3.5k mark. The entire 2-bus went into an STC-8H for vibe, tweaked it with the Dangerous BAX, added the Bricasti at the end, captured to the second DAW and back to soundcloud.

I actually like less reverb than I added on the track but I wanted to space out the drums more so it was a trade off. I could have spent more time on this.
I would have liked to get more snap and this would definitely happen if we remixed it. Even if I spent more time, Had I had more time :) But its a quick example that I think improved your mix.

I could keep going with comments. Lots on my mind with this but I think you get the idea. I hope I've helped.

What do you think of Hybrid? One of the biggest improvements I hear is around the 3:16 mark where the harmonies really work.

On the whole, I definitely like the sound of hybrid. I understand what it does and the result is pretty much what I expected.

audiokid, post: 395446 wrote:
audiokid
At 2:16, would your vocal ever sound great if you held it out just another second and used a delay to tail it off even further.

Yeah, I know what you mean! I'll address that.

In general, I didn't like the brickwalled version and it showed me what the problems are with too much compression/limiting: transients getting killed etc. I tried to get the snap back into the drums by being more careful with the mastering limiter in version 2.0.

Another thing this exercise shows is how incredibly easy it is to become deaf to your own material, and how useful it is to get someone else to at least listen to your songs, if not letting them master them.

Great exercise! Thanks for all your efforts, you have been truly helpful!

Well said responses! Your explanation on the 2-bus couldn't have been said better!

EDIT: Another thing regarding the "pile-up" on the 2-bus is that it is due to me not realising how to track properly at that time. I recorded everything too loud—without realising it—instead of turning the volume down on all the tracks and turning up the volume on the monitors. Hence, when I got around to recording the vocals, I had no more headroom and, compared to the rest of the tracks, the vocals always sounded too soft. So I kept pushing the gain on the vocals and tried at the same time not to clip it! I know better now...:redface:

This is such a common mistake everyone makes or has made.

Hey Serp, can we keep the before and after audio examples online for other members to benefit from this too? I'm thinking we could chop them into a small clip rather than the entire song. Thoughts?

PS,

wonderful Midi programming and the guitar solo was spot on. And the brass! Did you use Roland brass? You are an amazing musician.

Yes, definitely! We could take like a 10 second clip from, say, the second verse, or third verse—with the nice vocal harmonies, where the song is peaking emotionally—and post them in the different versions, one after the other. Is there a way to embed the soundcloud files into a post here on the forum? I tried to do that with the embed code from soundcloud but it didn't work for some reason. I'm sure that should be possible. Do you mean to publish a new post with this comparison? I think that would be the best way. Should I upload a 10 second clip of the original onto soundcloud or Dropbox?

PS,

wonderful Midi programming and the guitar solo was spot on. And the brass! Did you use [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.rolandus…"]Roland[/]="http://www.rolandus…"]Roland[/] brass? You are an amazing musician.

Thanks a lot! I was hoping to put off as long as possible to have to admit that I actually didn't play the guitar solo! That's the only part I didn't play myself: it was played by my brother-in-law, my wife's sister's husband. He's a professional jazz and session guitarist. Funny story actually: they came over to our place one night, had dinner and a couple of bottles of Italian wine, and then I said to him: "You know you're not getting away from here without having played a solo on my song!" So I played the song for him once and the second time he recorded the solo in one take! After hearing the song finished he said he could hear himself being drunk by the way he played it!:biggrin:
All the other guitar parts—the rhythm guitars and the little solo lick—were played by me, and all the programming I did myself. The composing of the different parts were mostly done by me, except the left channel rhythm guitars, which was composed by my collaborator, Marcus. We jointly wrote the lyrics and worked out the melodies.

The brass sounds are Reason 5 samples and Logic's own MIDI instruments, and I actually combined two different types of sounds: one is trumpets only and the other is a softer French horn emsemble sound from Reason, actually.

Yeah, I suppose it's a good sign when you actually enjoy listening to your own music! And I do... I'm very happy with how this composition turned out. And now I know what Hybrid can do for my sound. I was expecting it to deliver just what it delivered, I just didn't imagine it would sound so good! Not good for my finances, but my sights are locked on the target now, there's no going back.thumb

audiokid hug to a peer.

Okay, I will do a clip on my end. I have the song here so its easy. I'll post it on Dropbox. It will sound better too.

Thanks for being such a great sport!

Thank you for "taking me on"! I would certainly like to hear what others on this forum have to say about this effort. So far only you have commented, which I appreciate immensely. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to see what people have to say about this little exercise.

I have another question for you: one of your first criticisms was the vocal sound. It sounded dull and not defined and clear enough. Now, with your Hybrid remix of the stems I'd say you managed to get the vocals sounding really good, despite the lead and the backing vocals being on the same stem. With that in mind, would you still say that the original recording is not good enough, or is it a question of using the right outboard processing? Are you happy with the sound of the vocals now or do you still think that it should've been better recorded? Does it really need a better preamp, or is a better preamp to be preferred, but not compulsory? On a side note, I did use quite a lot of EQ and other processing to get the vocals sounding crisp enough, mainly on the backing vocals...

Speaking of preamps, I thinking of getting a Warm Audio 312 or a Vintagedesign M87D or M73D. These are all supposed to be based on Neve preamps. Any recommendations regarding these units?

By the way, did you just steal my quote?!

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it’s time to pause and reflect.” – Mark Twain

Or have you always had it? Because in that case, I didn't notice until now!! That's saying something...(y)

Serpentarius, post: 395475 wrote: Thank you for "taking me on"! I would certainly like to hear what others on this forum have to say about this effort. So far only you have commented, which I appreciate immensely. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to see what people have to say about this little exercise.

Absolutely. I embrace people like you.

Yes, I love this quote!

Whenever one agrees with the majority it's time to stop and think. Mark Twain

Majority are ITB. Few are taking notes. ITB vs OTB, Majority trust its all hype. People are more comfortable with the majority and majority are ITB. This topic is a reality check. If you listen to the comparisons, its pretty obvious.

I have my own theory and way of explaining things.
A DAW is really just a multitrack sampler. Tracks are samples. We like to think that a guitar track played by a real person is a real guitar track, but once its in your DAW, it is just another sample sharing the same straight line. Samples can be one second long or 60 minutes long. But they are still just samples.

Most people don't see it like that. When you understand this, it all becomes clear why hybrid makes so much sense. Same reason why we use different mics in a session. Variety makes it all more interesting.

When we listen to DAW music, we really only hear the voice and a wall of sound. Its a constant battle getting everything to sound clear without one thing being too loud. Hybrid seems to do this right away.

"Digital music is what cartoons are to imaging. Electronic music is a cartoon made into music" audiokid

Compress a 500 x 500 pixel cartoon into a smaller image, its still looks pretty good. Take the same size image of a persons face now and try and do the same thing, it becomes very distorted, barely recognizable. Cartoons still look great the size of this smiley smoke .
Dance music is like a cartoon made into music to me. Put a real person into a cartoon and its pretty weird looking. And look at what recordist here are trying to compete with day after day as they invest in more digital software to make their "real" music sound great ITB. Isn't it ironic!

I got heavy into technology when MTV came in. How humiliating playing in clubs that had DJ's playing between my breaks. How could we ever compete with that, not to mention, trying to get as loud and punchy with 20 microphones on stage dealing with horrible acoustics and feedback. I could never sound as good as the DJ mix. Dance floors packed once the DJ started playing. People always asking me to play pop music. You don't sound pop if you aren't using keyboards. Thats the first rule.

So, I woke up. I invested a 1/4 million into PA system and serious electronics, sequencers and keyboards. I picked up my guitar and learned how to sing and play along with the electronic music business, commercial music. The world got smaller real fast and I got real busy! And I liked it. I love technology and what its done for my sound and vision. The key is not being intimidated with progress. Yes it cost money to play with the best, gear does matter. But its also really fun learning how to use it to help your sound stand out. No matter whether you are blues or dance music, the same gear works for you.

If I was solely making computer music, I don't know if hybrid or analog would be as important. Even though I know OTB sounds better because it has no limits, digital music has very little transients left so its really easy to make it incredibly LOUD!

But as long as I plan on recording traditional music with a DAW, hybrid is going to be part of my chain.

Serpentarius, post: 395476 wrote: I have another question for you: one of your first criticisms was the vocal sound. It sounded dull and not defined and clear enough. Now, with your Hybrid remix of the stems I'd say you managed to get the vocals sounding really good, despite the lead and the backing vocals being on the same stem. With that in mind, would you still say that the original recording is not good enough, or is it a question of using the right outboard processing? Are you happy with the sound of the vocals now or do you still think that it should've been better recorded? Does it really need a better preamp, or is a better preamp to be preferred, but not compulsory? On a side note, I did use quite a lot of EQ and other processing to get the vocals sounding crisp enough, mainly on the backing vocals...

Speaking of preamps, I thinking of getting a Warm Audio 312 or a Vintagedesign M87D or M73D. These are all supposed to be based on Neve preamps. Any recommendations regarding these units?

My last post about hybrid really describes why I think its hard to blend electronic and acoustic together. Hybrid does this better than I ever imagined. So yes, your vocals sound much better through the hybrid chain. They seem to open up without any effort. But your sound still lacks luster. This is because of the mic, pre, converters. Invest in the right combo for you and you will be in heaven.

I have a Warm Audio pre here that I'm so sorry, I haven't had time to compare it. I have to be honest, the main reason I haven't even turned it on is because it has a lame wall-wart. To me, that's radio shack crap. But, I'm ready to be blown away. I'll try and do something on it soon.
I'm not a recordist like people here. I have my picks and stick with them. I need no more than I have. I'm the wrong guy to ask for advise when it comes to most preamps.
My mics for Vox are the U87, M 149, Rode Classic II, Royer SF Series, Mojave MA 300. Soundelux 251, and DPA 4011.
SPL Premiums are unreal and affordable. GR 2NV , Millennia M-2b. All expensive but worth it.

Follow people who sound like you on records and follow their reviews, engineers. Thats the best advice other than trial and error.

I'm embarrassed reading over many of my posts, they are so confusing at times. Its been difficult trying to explain my thoughts on hybrid summing. You have helped me get better at this.
The entire process is pretty damn confusing. I wonder how many people really grasp the concept? When I got into this, there was very little information on it. And the people that tried it, really didn't. So much misinformation on this.
Trying to understand how to hook it all up was a night mare in itself . And expensive, OMG.

I take music for granted. I do it all without thinking. I've been this way since I was a child. Every chance I had to jam, or do my own solo, I did. If I don't feel a song, I can't play along.
I try and not think about music, its just happens. And so I chose to make music as a business. If I didn't choose it as a business I would surely die broke and hungry because I don't want to do anything other than this. So its a burden and a gift. I'm happy in a closet dreaming about music.

I'm so excited about hybrid, its incredibly difficult not talking about it over and over. I wish I could lay back a bit and I'm going to try and not post as much as I have been. Or at least make more sense. I want examples to speak for themselves. Its going to be fun posting them this next year. Thanks for helping Serp!

I've gone over some of my posts here and on the forum and edited them so they make more sense.
My apologies to anyone reading the really confusing one. If you find one that needs editing, please let me know.

Cheers!

Surely, Hybrid is now gaining a bigger following by the day, now that Fab Dupont and professional people like that promote the concept. When I was doing my research on the net, I read a lot of opinions of people saying they really didn't hear any difference between ITB and OTB, claiming OTB proponents to be charlatans selling snake oil. My response to that is: if you cannot hear what others claim they hear, is the right response to deny the very existence of what they claim to hear? How can you possibly deny something you've never heard yourself? How can you possibly have an opinion about something you've never heard? How can you be sure to be right? Or put in a different context: an architect claims that in two years there will be a house built in a square. In the eyes of a passer-by is this architect a psychic able to foretell the future? Is he a prophet? Or is he a quack, a charlatan claiming to foretell the future? At that moment in time he might be considered a charlatan, but two years later he's proven to be right. Why? Because he saw into the future? Yes, in a way he did. However, the crucial cause for his ability to foretell the future is knowledge and competence. Those who claim Hybrid doesn't make a difference in the sound have no ability to hear the difference and consequently—and arrogantly—deny the very existence of that difference they cannot hear; they deny the existence of the competence needed to be able to hear the difference.

Sorry for this abstract detour, I hope it makes sense.

I'm glad I could be of any help—I enjoyed the journey and I learned a lot. To be continued I suppose...!

Here is the results of a 10 sec clip switched between ITB and OTB.

(Expired Link Removed)

Well! If people can't hear the difference now, then maybe they should stick to their dayjob.:biggrin: No seriously, the difference is crystal clear. I realise that for most people the difference is barely audible—if they hear it at all—but to me the difference is massive. The other day I compared my new Peluso 22 251 mic with the TSM MT87S mkII mic that I used to record the vocals for this song and the difference in sound quality is frankly embarrassing. How shocking then to find out that my wife couldn't tell the difference! I played near-identical recordings done with both mics to her, convinced that she will—of course!—hear what I hear. Nope. She could barely separate the two. It just goes to show what we've been discussing all this time.

So, now the question is:

Am I able to get the same monitoring capabilities with an SPL rig (e.g. MixDream XP+2Control) as with a Dangerous Music one (e.g. D-Box) in combination with the UA Apollo? The D-Box/Apollo combo gives latency-free DAW/Analogue switching, which I'd consider essential, but I don't see any digital connectivity with the SPL stuff... Am I missing something? [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.youtube…"]Dupont explains how to connect the Apollo with the D-Box[/]="http://www.youtube…"]Dupont explains how to connect the Apollo with the D-Box[/] and it sounds like being able to listen to the DAW or the Analogue input when mixing and tracking respectively without latency is too good to ignore. Is what he's describing actually necessary or just very handy? Or can you achieve the same or similar setup with say the SPL MixDream XP + 2Control? It doesn't look like it, right? No digital inputs on the MixDream... Unless—again—I'm missing something.

My point is, should I go for the 16 channel summing capacity now, even though I won't be using it initially, or should I stick to the 8 channels of the D-Box, with its seemingly brilliant—unparalleled?—monitoring capabilities in combination with the Apollo?

I don't know what to say.

My setup rocks, its perfect but its expensive. The MixDream 16 is the better choice if you are planning on buying all the extra's. The D Box looks like the best bang for your dollar. You don't need the monitor controller. I say go with that, get set-up and see how you like it. You can always sell it and upgrade to a fuller system. There are second Hand D Box's all the time too, maybe right now for a great price. .

I do know 16 DA = 8 stereo and you need 2 for monitoring so that leaves 6 stereo stems left.

( Kick/Snare 1&2 - Bass/lead Vox 3&4 - Guitars 5&6 - Keys, 7&8 - percussion 9/10 - Efx, 11/12 - Harmonies 13,14 - Monitoring 15/16 )

If you get into this more, you are going to wish you had 8 stereo stems to work with. I think this is a min requirement but you can always cascade. You don't need 16 AD's though. So save your money there. You only need a few AD at once, right so you could buy those separately.

Both SPL MixDream and Dangerous have monitor outs and Sum outs. The DBox has everything you need, you don't need monitor controller with that.

the Apollo is ITB. I have no idea what it sounds like. Its looks really cool.

more time to comment.

NOTE, Both MixDream 16 and XP ) are 100% analog. They have 16 analog IO plus a monitor and Sum. There is no digital connection with either unit. Both connect to the interface via db25 (NOTE: Tascam analog pinout) 1/8, 9/16. Some converters have DB25 and some use TRS so all you do is get the cable custom made for whatever you get or switch later down the road. Make sense?

The converters also connect digitally ( could be a Yamaha or Tascam digital DB25 pinout depending or FW or ADAT or SPDIF) this depends on what you buy).

I happen to buy converters that have both db25 digital and analog connectors( RME ADI-8 QS ) so my cable ( both analog and digital) is made to fit for my MixDream. They are close together. I use 4 snakes 1 meter each and 2 digital snakes 3 meters each. Clean, quiet and simple.

I connect all my hardware via the inserts on the MixDream Mix Inputs. The MixDream works like a patchbay. Its another reason why I bought it.

This is just one way to connect a summing system.

All converters connect digitally to your interface via AES, ADAT, SPDIF, USB or FW. You buy what you need so plan ahead. This is how it all completes the ADDA chain. Every converter has their own way to connect to your computer's interface. There are various interface choices.

Don't get that part confused with the analog side of this set-up, its easy to do.

Not sure if you are looking right now but there is a Dbox in Canada for sale. (Dead Link Removed)

Yeah, you're probably right, I'll stick to the original plan to get the D-Box. If I like it enough I'll consider upgrading. But I'll let it take a while before I decide. I have to get to know the system, its possibilities and limitations.

Actually, I am looking for a D-Box and I'm prepared to get a new one. I have however been looking out for a used one in case one turns up. I signed up at Gearslutz but cannot for some reason view that particular board. Strange. In any case, an second-hand gear available in the US or Canada is not likely to be shipped to Europe.

Managed to get my Simaudio MOON amp sold and now I'm only waiting to receive the money for it. :biggrin:

FYI, I have shipped gear to France from Canada without problems. You just need to be very clear on custom labeling making sure all the shipping info required is filled out in detail. Sweden should be similar. And of course, buying from someone trustworthy. But, the street price for these is around $850. Gives you an idea at least.

Nice! I'm tired of the junk on the radio these days.

Alary, post: 401598 wrote: Nice! I'm tired of the junk on the radio these days.

Thanks Alary!
Well, I stopped listening to the radio at least 10 years ago, I don't have a TV, I don't watch the latest Hollywood movies and I don't read mainstream news unless I feel like having a laugh. I believe that if one wants to be creative in whatever field one needs to stop with the input totally in order to be able to reach one's own creativity. That's the only way to start outputting. If one is constantly stimulated—which is the case for 99% of the people these days—then how is one going to find the time and the inspiration, let alone the desire, to create oneself?
I'm not saying one has to live like a hermit in order to make music, but a certain conscious degree of asceticism is definitely needed in order to find one's own creative voice. Just like a writer retires to a place far away from the bustling city where he can find inspiration.

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