IIRs, post: 377666 wrote: "unlimited headroom at the mix engine" is a current reality in every other DAW!

Reaper is seriously great for mixing though. I would hate to give up "Solo in Front" mode for example... does any other DAW have that feature yet?

Okay. With that in mind what would I need as an interface from all my outboard to my Mac Pro if I was to add something like Reaper to my system. I'm not giving up the proTools just would like some other options and I'm not so sure about Logic.

I'm not a mac guy, and I'm not familiar with Pro-Tools hardware (D-Show live desks don't count!) so I may not be the best person to advise... I take it you're running an HD rig at the moment?

As far as I know any interface that has standard mac style Core Audio drivers should work fine with Reaper. If you can run Logic with your current hardware you should probably be able to run Reaper.

Dan's statement is sobering and refreshing. Are these facts below, Dan? You've exposed a can of worms that is very enlightening.

Pro Tools does have a sound but I guess its safer to say its the lack of headroom , more evident in Pro Tools because of these facts.
As a work around to the zzz. Even though the majority are discovering the need to record well below the meters, we may in fact need to record even LOWER than thought to get a more open sound.
As a testimonial> Once I became familiar with this sound, realizing how much better everything sounds tracked at much lower levels, including less plug-ins, it made sense to drop the Avid band wagon and head towards other systems.

(To Dave: since you are on Mac, I've never used Logic it may sound better than Pro Tools.) also (Samplitude has a bridge for mac users and make note that they are releasing a Mac version this next year).

My top pics for best sounding DAWs are Samplitude hands down and then Reaper.

Samplitude is designed like a traditional console with hybrid logic. It has superior editing and mastering capabilities and it looks great too. Why are most of the mastering engineers using it? If you get the fully loaded versions, you don't really need third party plug-ins either. It has it all. Something that has me puzzled though... Samplitude lacks a proficient MIDI that works under heavy load. It could be I need a better computer for this. If I get that sorted, it will be stellar.

Reaper is quicker in all respects but its because it is less (less is more) of what Samplitude is. Its a fine tuned DAW that runs on Windows like its not even working. Its amazing. To my testing, its the best nuts and bolts DAW on the market. Both Reaper and Samplitude sound like each other. Open and silky is how I describe them but you also need great converters to get any DAW to sound like you expect. Without the converters, they all sound like pro fools. That I'm certain of.

Reaper is the best budget DAW and Samplitude is the best complete DAW.

audiokid, post: 0 wrote: Right, that was very interesting, Dan, please re post that here for an excellent reference.

I think a little basic economics is in order. A couple of things should be obvious to anyone who is economically literate - even if they've never listened to any audio. First, PT has big advantages over over other DAWs - real reasons for people to prefer it over Reaper, Samplitude, Cubase and all of the other "superior" DAWs. How can you tell - even if you never compared them? Easy - PT has been "inferior" for decades, and it's still the market leader. Maybe you think that all PT users are on drugs. I certainly am: Crestor, Norvasc,...I just don't think they have anything with why I'm using PT. (You can also tell because Chris, who has been spitting mad at AVID for a couple of years, is thinking about getting a copy of PT10.) Second thing, the DAWs other than PT that have been around for a while must have some big advantages over PT. How can you tell? Because they are still in business. You don't compete against a dominant market leader and survive unless you have some definite comparative advantage. I've know many of those advantages before I started with PT. I've learned more over the years. (Small clue - people who are trying to justify their own choices have been shouting about this from the rooftops since I've been listening. It's REALLY hard to miss.) I've thought about changing. I'll think about it again. I am not in a "uniquely compromised position" because PT improved its software.

Yes, PT 10 is a stopgap. Avid is saying this very plainly and clearly. It's a kiss goodbye to people with "obsolete" hardware that will make good music for many more years. The big upgrade is the next one. PT users have a CHOICE of whether to buy now or wait. You guys are great salesmen for PT10. Since you can't imagine how I can live without these features, maybe it's worth $300 for me to upgrade - even knowing that I'll have to take another hit very soon. The fact is that it is working. I'll probably go for PT10 as soon as the CD I'm working on is off to the replicators.

Good points Bob. And I've needed to apologize more than once with my attitude, I really need to mellow on the PT bashing, sincerely.

To clarify my interest in Avid, I really only want PT 9 for testing ( I have 5 other DAWs here too) I'm in search for a DAW that is great for both audio and midi. Samplitude is just that but I'm having trouble with large track counts running VSTi without compromise. They have a work around for it but I'm not liking to adjust my style. So, maybe PT will be the answer but I doubt it. For $600 I can afford the piece of mind to try it and to see what they've done since 5.1 . Plug-ins, for the most part, they can have em. Its a big rat race of plugin quagmire. What a total smorgasbord of mostly consumer snake oil.

The reason PT is where they are Bob, is because of many factors beyond sound quality. Its brilliant marketing that involves third party industry. If you create something that people can profit with you, you will grow.
if it is a plug and play, well then even better. That's my take on it. Pro Tools is stellar software and they created a very cool thing for all ages.

This being said, I must admit that my old mix ++ system worked well but it sounded like ass. But, I used outboard midi gear along side it so it didn't require a super PC like today's VSTi powered DAW's need.. I used no VSTi back then. Midi hardware sounded incredible. But the recording audio sucked. VSTi has a long ways to go before it catches up with the midi hardware world. This is what I'm trying to work out. I'm seriously thinking about getting back to outboard midi gear and syncing to MMC and getting back to business. All this hype and need for endless PCIe cards is consuming us and very distracting.
As far as straight audio recording, and you don't need all the bells and toys... cause toys they are... there are way better systems than Pro Tools for much less. The game here is plug-ins and how many can you run without it choking. Thats what Pro Tools is ALL about. Its very well thought out to fit the bill for all levels (newbies to the serious).

Plug and play, plug and pay.

audiokid, post: 377677 wrote: ...The reason PT is where they are Bob, is because of many factors beyond sound quality. Its brilliant marketing that involves third party industry. If you create something that people can profit with you, you will grow. That's my take on it. Pro Tools is stellar software and they created a very cool thing here...

I'd absolutely agree with that. A lot of their advantages are due to the fact that they were "firstest and fastest" into the market. That's why they have better courses, books, videos, and dealer support. But as the Sony Betamax shows, the first to market doesn't always win unless it has other advantages as well. (And as Betamax shows "quality" is not a very important advantage. You can say that PT sounds like ass. (I'll say that it sound like ass if you don't watch your gain structure.) But it's never sounded better and it's always been the market leader.)

IIRs, post: 377570 wrote: ...So, everything they say about PT 10 having much better internal headroom is absolutely true. Thing is, every other DAW has had this for YEARS! And they haven't even caught up yet: many (most?) native DAWs now use 64 bit floats rather than 32 bit...

I just want you guys to acknowledge that as a mathematician I was almost morally obligated to make an "infinity plus infinity" joke, and I resisted.

BobRogers, post: 377679 wrote: I'd absolutely agree with that. A lot of their advantages are due to the fact that they were "firstest and fastest" into the market. That's why they have better courses, books, videos, and dealer support. But as the Sony Betamax shows, the first to market doesn't always win unless it has other advantages as well. (And as Betamax shows "quality" is not a very important advantage. You can say that PT sounds like ass. (I'll say that it sound like ass if you don't watch your gain structure.) But it's never sounded better and it's always been the market leader.)

NOTE: It sounded like ass back then, even when I watched the gain. Its why I told people not to normalize your PT tracks too. I don't have an HD system here so I cannot make any personal judgements or comparisons other than what I'm hearing on the radio. HD must sound much better today, their converters are somewhat better. But there engine hasn't changed. Obviously in the hands of the uninformed, all sounds like ass.

Dan's statement is fueling our passion. A lot of PT users are rethinking their investment and its bound to heat up, once again.

The new HDX will be a game changer. Do or die. Its going to put a hiccup in the converter market too. Its going to either alienate PT more or put them right back up there. If it works like they say it will, if I could run dozens of high quality VSTi programs ( hundreds of voices), 48 tracks of Audio and 48 tracks of Midi and do all the realtime editing in one complete package (ITB) without latency and switching from hybrid to economy monitoring all the time, and, if it sounds as good as what I have now, I'd love to own it, AND WOULD PAY FOR IT.

The thing is, if I simply bought an MPC5000 or some higher end sequencer that will clock to the DAW, and used vintage keyboards and a good digital workstation that sync'd tight to any other DAW like Reaper to name one... I still could do it right now for much less than what this next generation is going to come close to that cost and performance. This is what people are saying over and over who know what the 80's where like during the pinnacle years before all hell broke loose.

Lets not forget that there is a convenience factor here. The amount of real estate needed, the knowledge to cable and configure what I have isn't for the average guy either. Plug and Play works for most and this is also why ITB is growing in popularity. PT is turn key. We're breeding a whole new generation of musicians and engineers that no other way. Many are just discovering things can actually sound better.

Many of you guys are using your DAW's for standard tracking (technically advanced replacements to a tape machine) which demands far less CPU than a fully blown Midi/VSTi and tracking production system, unless of course you are GAS plug-in crazed...
On the flip side of the business, many are using their DAWs for looping, playing with samples, cut and paste for more electronic music who do very minimum audio recording in comparison. So there is Sonar, Cubase and Ableton Live to name the best I know.

Combining the three requirements needed for this type of studio is a whole other slice of the game. You start adding in the CPU heavy VSTi, the need for very low latency monitoring and realtime editing feature's into a complex DAW system, it changes the requirements big time. Its why I am going OTB more and more. Put the power were its best served. There is nothing I've found that can replace a good MIDI hardware rig like the past. The time it takes to compose music today is rediculous. So much overkill on editing and screwing around with one issue after another. Its a bloody nightmare trying to keep it all self contained.

I'm going to likely wait for 11 before I splurge. Last May I jumped on Audition 5.5 so I'm up to date especially with Reaper. I just want to stay vaguely familiar with PT. Who knows, maybe I'll like 11 and HDX. I'm really still waiting on Thunderbolt to come of age to make long term strategies.

Here's the thing for me. This studio is probably going to be my last one. I have been busy from year to year with regular work and have only a few short years till my real retirement. This studio is my retirement business. Right now, I do projects I want to do. Sometimes I get paid, sometimes not, but I do get a lot of enjoyment and satisfaction out of helping really talented people make their product as well as learning something new every time I turn on the lights in the room. So upgrading, for me, means picking the system that will get me the most knowledge and capability to someday really open the doors to business traffic.

Sounds like wishful thinking sometimes, but the business model of the record industry is broken beyond all imagination and the new business model will show up loud and proud before we realize it. I just want to be able to give back to something I've been a part of all my adult life. If it means teaching the 'new' generation things about the physics of sound in a recording environment then thats what I'll do. Most kids can work these computers better than I'll ever be able to. And when Chris talks of MIDI.....I havent a clue except the very very basics... But then I dont need that and never have. What I CAN do is make things sound really good in most environments including shitty basements and garages. And I can make work arounds in almost any pile of junk gear you can imagine. This is worth something. Eventually.

So an upgrade for me might very well be PT10 and then wait it out for a couple or three years and make noise with what I've got.

Heck, last year before I even got a PT rig of any kind we had a record get nominated for a regional award......Its not much but its a real good start till retirement.

Besides, a REAL upgrade for me involves a room. And a couple of steps like a great sounding console, and a tape deck.....or maybe Radar....After the room its all gravy no matter what you capture it on.

Well said Dave. beautiful.

I'm the same as you btw, just going about it a bit different. The studio I'm building is my last (unless I live to 110). I'm mainly investing in the stuff I can take a long ways to my grave now and hopefully pass some vintage gems to my children. Who know though, maybe there won't be 110 power at that time.
I am not buying into the high priced digital BS anymore. PT 9 yeh but truthfully, the HDX coming sounds incredible but here we go again.
The industry is so caught up GAS, its so distracting and fragmenting our creative energy far off course. I sound like a hypocrite at times, one min talking MIDI and the next organic but I'm real about dropping tons a cash into the digital domain. Its a rat race. Many here are on the same page. I do however get really confused when I hear people talking about buying a new HD system when we are seeing the writing on the wall months ahead. Which is, don't buy it because its going to be announced that its being replaced. Then the whole digi trashing starts over again.

I just cringe thinking about our recording industry. But like you say, including RO, I to am doing this for personal enjoyment and to especially help others along the way. Most of my work is in the classical domain now. Its in the wee hours of the morning where I need the power to create the big vision in my head. The thought of me ever making it has long passed but I do keep dreaming I will compose that one great song.
I took up recording to harness whats going on in my heart, that all I'm in it for. Its a gift and burden that got me to here.

A few grand in software is about all I'm going to invests in these days. I don't need plug-ins or ProTools HDX or HD because its not going to do it for me anyway. Its full of carrots and dependent on more more and more to keep them plug-ins running. Thats all I'm saying here.

I think PT 9 software is a good thing. I hope avid opens their door more to the world, but without the need for the added hardware. I feel for all the guys that dropped a wad this last year on HD hardware. Next year is the time to buy all that used avid. I'd say a pile of people are crying on one hand and smiling on the other. But then you can't upgrade because they won't support old hardware dependent pieces that go with avid. Then your computer dies and you are ****ed. That's what happen to me and it will repeat itself over and over. Sorry, I need to stop before you all start throwing virtual tomatoes.

Anyway, I've got to get off this spotlight before I get tossed. Its fun reading your stories. I'm really excited to learn more about headroom and this is my focus this next year.
I hope we are having fun and not taking this all too serious.

Back to Dan please! with a big welcome.

I bought my first personal computer in early 1982. One of these days I have to go back and try to go back and reconstruct how many times I've replaced obsolete hardware and software. Every piece of digital equipment/software I've owned has had a short life span. But the fact that you have to expect to upgrade eventually doesn't mean that you have to live on the bleeding edge and pay for every upgrade offered. I don't feel that bad for the people who bought hardware a year ago. Yes, it's pretty bad timing, but the difference between the best timing and the worst timing in the digital world is only a couple of years. If it was good hardware a year ago, it's still good now - even if there is something better.

This PT10 upgrade is clearly a case of a "skipable" upgrade. I've never seen a company signal so clearly that a new piece of software will be in for a major upgrade in a short time. But it will make sense for some people. For people who want to milk a few more years out of legacy hardware this is it. (I think that's the reason for the high price for the HD version.) For people with non-HD versions for whom PT is their main DAW you have to weigh the features (pretty nice) the price ($300) and the time frame (a year? six months?)

Bob, you make perfect sense in that last paragraph. Its kinda where I'm at. And then, I think, next year I'll be able to get a perfectly good HD Accel card for real cheap and I have a computer that would simply go faster with this. Even with my little foray into this part of it (I have mixed a few records on very high-end systems) the additional DSP and hardware based systems seem to be the best solution EXCEPT when the talk starts centering around this ability to access the RAM and the cache as if it was part of the drives......then I get all bumpity! I have 16gigs of RAM in the 'puter.....I dont think I ever use half of it at any time...mostly less than a quarter... so its fast RAM and theres a lot of it....seems like a no-brainer for me to add a program or software than can access this to enhance my abilities to expand my mixes.

Make sense?

And isnt this something that is being touted in the PT10 upgrade for us LE/ Legacy folks?

On another note....We have started the next Franco record. I used my Alesis HD24 as my interface for 8 tracks digitally into PT through the ADAT lightpipe and also added 4 tracks of analog at the same time. This is what I was hoping would happen as I continue to build around the existing gear with newer technology.

I have to say that theres some sort of really musical quality to the converters in the Alesis. Certainly not Lynx or Apogee but no "zzzz" either.....And it worked like a charm. I understand now why a lot of studios have bought the XR version as simply a converter and a backup recorder. Makes perfect sense!

My advice would be the same as to someone wanting to buy from scratch. Wait until Thunderbolt is fully implemented before dropping cash. This is especially true if this might be the final round of purchasing/upgrading. Unlike USB3 I don't think audio is going to skip this protocol. And....all of us that started on analog gear already know enough to get by until the next generation of connection protocol is realized.

As far as the HD24XR, I love mine. I wish I had never sold my second unit when I was broke just out of the Corps and newly divorced. Whether one uses it as a converter or feeds it a digital signal for backup recording it is a very very useful item to have around. It gets to be a heavy pain in the asterisk for location recording what with the UPS and all, but that doesn't stop me from taking it out nearly 98.9% of the time.

Here's a .pdf from Avid giving what I assume is accurate info on what features are available in the various versions of PT10 and PT10HD

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://akmedia.digi…"]What's New in Pro Tools 10[/]="http://akmedia.digi…"]What's New in Pro Tools 10[/]

Here's the feature comparison chart:

Note that Disc Cache for standard Pro Tools is only available with Complete Production Tool Kit which is an additional $1500.

[="http://www.avid.com…"]Avid | Compare Pro Tools Software and Systems

[/]

hueseph, post: 377825 wrote: Here's the feature comparison chart:

Note that Disc Cache for standard Pro Tools is only available with Complete Production Tool Kit which is an additional $1500.

[="http://www.avid.com…"]Avid | Compare Pro Tools Software and Systems

[/]

Yeah. Doesnt that blow.......

hueseph, post: 377825 wrote: Here's the feature comparison chart:

Note that Disc Cache for standard Pro Tools is only available with Complete Production Tool Kit which is an additional $1500.

[="http://www.avid.com…"]Avid | Compare Pro Tools Software and Systems
[/]

That's an argument for waiting to upgrade. In a year (?) we'll have 64 bits and be able to utilize more RAM (if not in the same way). The Disc Cache is one of the few features of the CPTK that make sense for me, but it's basically a "oh, that would be nice" feature since I'm not using large track counts.

BobRogers, post: 377836 wrote: That's an argument for waiting to upgrade. In a year (?) we'll have 64 bits and be able to utilize more RAM (if not in the same way). The Disc Cache is one of the few features of the CPTK that make sense for me, but it's basically a "oh, that would be nice" feature since I'm not using large track counts.

That's true. The biggest benefit for standard Users right now is the new disc management Systems. Many of the major issues for me is the inefficieny of the read/write engine. The playback engine settings are apparently no longer needed and therefore omitted from PT10 altogether. This is almost worh upgrading for me but seems like more of a fix for the problems with the old engine in the first place. I'll wait for the next release tyvm.

hueseph, post: 377847 wrote: That's true. The biggest benefit for standard Users right now is the new disc management Systems. Many of the major issues for me is the inefficieny of the read/write engine. The playback engine settings are apparently no longer needed and therefore omitted from PT10 altogether. This is almost worh upgrading for me but seems like more of a fix for the problems with the old engine in the first place. I'll wait for the next release tyvm.

There is also 16K sample ADC and 32bit fp mixing. And a nice looking new channel strip and a few other misc. plugins. The first two might be worth $300 for a year for me. The UAD plugs chew up ADC if you are using long buffers. Someone not using many plugs and all of them native would make a different calculation.

True. Lots of new features to Pro Tools but many of these I already have available in other DAWs.

Gotta admit, that's a pretty smokin deal for an HDX card and an Omni. That's gotta piss those people off who bought HD1 cards with an interface just earlier this year.

I been having fun popping over to the slutz to see how many people are selling their HD rigs, or other gear to get cash ready. Its starting to turn into a frenzy. Digi G.A.S. is brewing.
Everyone selling gear, no one buying. And there are rigs going for $4500 and less.

The drama continues: [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.linkedin…"]Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough? - Latest - AIR Users Blog[/]="http://www.linkedin…"]Avid Answer Our 5 Questions On Pro Tools 10 & HDX - Is This Enough? - Latest - AIR Users Blog[/]

Unfortunately I can't post the content. If you have a Linked in account, you can view it. Essentially Avid have quashed and dismissed all questions in regards to their pricing and future plans for ProTools. They feel that their pricing is "fair" and that the new "Avid Advantage" and "Avid Standard Support" (ASS plan as it has been called) are a solution to the pricing dilemma.

The support plans work in this way. You buy an Advantage or A.S.S. plan you get free upgrades and free or discounted support for the next year. Of course if Avid decide not to release their next upgrade for another two years, you will have paid for the software in full anyway.

Incidentally Avid's stock has dropped to as low as $6(six dollars) per share in the past few weeks.

What were their stocks at before?

I don't even know but at $6 per share, that would probably be considered penny stocks. I'm not sure if it's time to buy shares or sell.

Edit: I found it. In August 2011 they were at $20 per share. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://ca.finance.y…"]AVID Basic Chart | Avid Technology, Inc. Stock - Yahoo! Canada Finance[/]="http://ca.finance.y…"]AVID Basic Chart | Avid Technology, Inc. Stock - Yahoo! Canada Finance[/] That's a drop of more than 60%

I'm going out on a limb here but I am getting a feeling that Avid is creating a new system to fool us all into thinking they have once again built the new standard. I like to believe it but there is something telling me that this is all Bull Shit.

audiokid, post: 378502 wrote: I'm going out on a limb here but I am getting a feeling that Avid is creating a new system to fool us all into thinking they have once again built the new standard. I like to believe it but there is something telling me that this is all Bull Shit.

You're not alone. There's a lot of grumbling on the Air User Blog.

I have to add this:

Avid wrote: when it’s time to upgrade the Avid Vantage Program and Avid Standard Support Plan are two great ways for customers to maximize their investment in Avid for years to come.

The next release of Pro Tools will not support the older HD cards. Avid made this clear. This is the last release that will support the older cards. The statement quoted above is an outright lie.

hehehe. I love you man.