We will be doing a similar recording project later this spring if the client can find the money. The difference is our chamber orchestra will only have about 30 or so players and the only ones wearing headphones will be the conductor, the percussionist and the concert master.

I really don't see why all the orchestra members have to have headphones on and I think it is really going to BUG them big time if they are not use to playing with headphones. As to renting that amount of headphones....good luck

Based on experience every player will want his or her own volume control and will also want to control what it is that they are hearing (their section, click track, percussion, bass line, etc.)....I think this is going to turn into one big mess......Can you talk honestly with the conductor and tell him or her what the problems are likely to be?

When I worked for the college here in town we did a piece where every member of an ensemble had to have a click track earphone. We specially built splitter boxes and ordered 50 TELEX "in the ear headphones". The first rehearsal was a real mess and NO ONE was happy with their phone levels which proved to be the biggest problem. It also took over two hours to setup and tear down the headphone setup for each rehearsal and concert and keeping all the wires coiled up and untangled was a Herculean task in itself. I wish you the only the BEST! and good LUCK!This is a real "can of worms" and I don't think the conductor has any idea of what he or she is asking for or will having to deal with during the recording session.....

Yeah, it seems like the conductor simply doesn't understand the recording process. I wonder if he's ever worked on something like this before where all of his players actually had cans...

I agree with both David and Tom. The conductor must have seen some scoring session on MTV or something and thinks that all the musicians want headphones...

I'll tell you right now, if any conductor or engineer ever asks me to play with cans on, I'll ask him (or her) if they LIKE intonation and good tone or if they would prefer to hire someone else - those would be their options.

However, if you MUST do the headphone route, it's honestly almost as cheap to buy as it is to rent. At least then you could recoup some of your losses by selling some of it on ebay later. The B****nger headphone amps have like 12 outputs and they're dirt cheap. 5 of those with 60 of the el-cheapo AKGs or Sennheisers or ATs or Apexes or whatever else and you're coming in around $1200 for the whole deal. Charge the client for 80% of that as a "rental" fee. Keep what you need when you're done and sell the rest.

Label each can with a letter (corresponding to the HP amp) and a number (corresponding to the output on that amp) and when someone wants their level adjusted, have them state their number and how they want it adjusted.

It's a SERIOUS pain in the ass (as mentioned already). We did a project like this 5 years ago and I will never do something like that again! I think one for the conductor, concert master and lead/principal percussionist (and maybe one for the principal trumpet) would be appropriate.

Good luck!!!

Let me know if you need a few extra cans. I've got 3 or so pair I could loan out if they come back in good condition.

J.

Hey Joe-

I've got a fair amount of experience doing exactly this... Drop me a line and I can help you out- I'll be reachable (driving) from about noon on tomorrow.

In short-

Headphones are fine, but you should go single ear. I use Beyer DT102 here (I think that's the number). I usually send them a monitor mix of themselves as well as click track, etc... Pre-records are also always in the cans as the musicians need to hear them for a pitch reference. Here in LA, most experienced players will want to bring their own headphones- this is fine, but be aware of click bleed issues.

Last gig I did was actually a live performance thing where I had click, prerecords, and a live orchestra. I gave the Orchestra an AVIOM system so they could dial in their own mix. Everything was on CAT-5 so it was easy to set up. With the proper break-out box, I didn't even need power for the mixers. It took awile to teach the musicians how to use the boxes, but once they knew them, they pretty much liked them. Certainly made my life easier. That said, 90% of the mixes were heavy on click and very light on everything else.

In the big sessions here in town, there is a monitor mixer on the stage and then the score mixer is in the control room. In the smaller sessions, I'll run cans from my console in the CR. The most convenient way to run will be a standard amplifier running out to headphone boxes with individual volume controls. You'll probably be able to put a dozen or so cans on each amp- you need to sit down with the pencil and paper to figure that one out to make sure loading is ok.

I wouldn't give the musicians a monitor, either... You want them watching the music- not the movie. Put a TV in front of the conductor and project against the back wall behind the orchestra.

Next, I'd be careful playing off a DVD- you want your session locked to picture. If you do use a DVD, have them put code as an audio track so that you can lock your DAW to the timecode. Otherwise, the re-sync can seriously suck in post.

I'll tell you right now, if any conductor or engineer ever asks me to play with cans on, I'll ask him (or her) if they LIKE intonation and good tone or if they would prefer to hire someone else - those would be their options.

Not to harp on ya Jeremy, but you bring that attitude into LA, you'll never work. Playing with cans is a good skill to have. Scoring sessions can certainly be fun to play and they don't have to be a compromise of sound/intonation to get a good performance with cans. You should see somebody like Rick Todd or Malcom McNabb go when the red light goes on. Un-freakin-believable what those guys can do in the studio.

--Ben

FifthCircle wrote:

I'll tell you right now, if any conductor or engineer ever asks me to play with cans on, I'll ask him (or her) if they LIKE intonation and good tone or if they would prefer to hire someone else - those would be their options.

Not to harp on ya Jeremy, but you bring that attitude into LA, you'll never work. Playing with cans is a good skill to have. Scoring sessions can certainly be fun to play and they don't have to be a compromise of sound/intonation to get a good performance with cans. You should see somebody like Rick Todd or Malcom McNabb go when the red light goes on. Un-freakin-believable what those guys can do in the studio.

--Ben

Well...not quite. Many of the studio horn players (such as Vince DeRosa, Jim Decker, Jim Thatcher, and others) don't like to use cans either (not to say they won't or don't, but there is obviously a preference). Furthermore, Joe's not dealing with seasoned studio musicians presumably. They're probably standard symphony players. A symphony player will NOT like the headphones.

Besides...I've got no plan to move to LA to play in sessions. I like orchestral music too much.

J

Thanks for all the great advice, guys! (And keep it comin' if anyone has more.)

I can't reveal too much about the client & the project just yet. As many of you know, this kind of thing can vaporize in seconds if something gets out of whack and tanks the whole production. (We'll see!)

I'm in agreement about the single-ear muff devices, going with full coverage with musicians who need to hear themselves for intonation would be difficult, if not impossible. (I can only imagine the nightmare of monitor mixing hassles for that!)

I'll reveal the client and the project once it's up and running, or nearing completion. If it flies, it should be a lot of fun, and perhaps even a tad historical.
(Ben, I'll be in touch with you about your post and some other info.)

Thanks again, everyone, it's been really helpful and eye opening.

Cucco wrote: Furthermore, Joe's not dealing with seasoned studio musicians presumably. They're probably standard symphony players. A symphony player will NOT like the headphones.

You might be a little behind the times. Symphony players who like to make extra dough and do something different are usually adept at the ways of the studio. In Nashville all the symphony guys were at peace with the compromises that entailed, and that goes for most major cities.

Rich

I can't reveal TOO much, but the conductor is a fairly heavy-hitter in the biz, at least B'way and Orchestral arrangements, etc. I didn't know the guy by name, but I googled him and have to admit he's got the chops and the experience. (The client's budget may dictate the number of HPs as much as anything else.)

The musicians are A- and B+ level players. (NOT the Phila orch, but the next level down, and many of them sub for the Philly O from time to time.) I've done smaller sessions with many of them on headsets, actually, doing some Video Game soundtracks, over dubbing sections at a time, so they're not total novices. Plus, many of these folks are in the pit locally for all the professional operas in town, along with various ballet and other first-call "Classical" stuff. They know their way around. (And we're not that far from NFL Films' soundstage in Mount Laurel, NJ, where many of them have done sessions as well over there.) In most cases in Philly, you're either full-time with the Philly O, or you're busy doing literally everything else.

It's also interesting to note that just about all of the players currently working professionally are younger than they used to be, and therefore much more accepting of technology in general. There are very few total "Purists" out there - not if they want to work in today's myriad situatons they find themselves in.

There's just not a lot of really "OLD" (read: out of touch and inflexible) folks on stage anymore, not like it used to be... I've seen opera singers adapt to and accept lavalier mics (for a specific spoken-word moment in a very loud, sound-effects laden moment in a non-traditional operatic role), and I've done as many as 24 tracks on full out orchestral/theatrical work with choir, soloists and full Chamber Orchestra, so they're used to all the mics onstage and the technical side of things. I'm not knocking the older musicians, but it's changed a LOT since I started doing this 20-some years ago. Back then, mics were an imposition, and it was only the biggest of budgets that could afford to record. (ANd those budgets meant more $$$ for the players. Not so anymore, sadly...)

With today's technology all around us, in every part of life, musicians are hipper and more accepting of the technology involved. Very often, the players themselves approach me after a particularly good concert and sign up for copies for themselves; the idea of a CD of what they did (even the pro's and more jaded types) has that instant-gratificiation appeal to many. It just didn't work that way years ago.

I think it's going to work out in terms of the players "getting it", but the cost of a system - even a rental, with single ear breakouts for all - is a very real concern.

More as it happens. :roll:

Joe, he probably remembers the old RCA and CBS studios in New York? I had been in the old RCA studios a couple of times, where I sat in on some orchestral recordings, before it went away, just before General Electric bought them and it was an amazing facility! With those huge movable, wooden poly cylindrical diffusers, that I had only seen pictures of. It was fabulous!

Maybe FifthCircle can send you some pictures of recording sessions that are similar to what you're going to do, to show the conductor, to convince him with the suggestions that others have made here? I mean 60 headphones is going to cause quite a racket that will foldback into the microphones anyhow.

Sure, I think they probably had 80 headphones available!? But it wasn't a location job.

I remember seeing a piece of percussion gear that said "Toscanini, NBC orchestra" on it, in the early 1980s! WOW!

You might want to look into a university language lab system? Talk about headphone distribution. Maybe the United nation's system? Not the same.

This is a tough one.
Ms. Remy Ann David

Running 60 headphones is really no worse than running 10. The bleed issue is definitely one to deal with, but that is why I recommend the Beyer closed ear single-muff headphones. The way you mic when dealing with this many cans is also important. Getting the majority of your sound from your overhead mics and then using spots for detail and bringing instruments/sections in and out of focus is a wise approach here.

I wouldn't worry about players not playing in tune because they have a single-ear muff running. You can still hear plenty well with a single ear and you MUST have everybody on click and they should hear something of the orchestra back as well. Be aware in their headphone mix also the louder the backing tracks etc... in their cans, the louder they will want the click. Having them crank the level will increase bleed issues so be careful with the sound in their cans. Also, compression and EQ of the click can also help with bleed issues while recording.

--Ben

Sonarerec wrote: [quote=Cucco] Furthermore, Joe's not dealing with seasoned studio musicians presumably. They're probably standard symphony players. A symphony player will NOT like the headphones.

You might be a little behind the times. Symphony players who like to make extra dough and do something different are usually adept at the ways of the studio. In Nashville all the symphony guys were at peace with the compromises that entailed, and that goes for most major cities.

Rich

Sorry, I don't think so. It's one thing to play in a studio to backing tracks with cans on. I've done it (for an off-broadway religious-based play soundtrack as a solo horn for intro to their finale) but if I were to play in a section of my peers, it is essential that I hear them. Our section and most others that I've played in pride ourselves on our ability to almost read eachothers' minds. When one is tired, the others help out without having to even so much as give a visual cue as to such. When the principal is flat, we adjust accordingly. Articulations and balance are all done on the fly. These are things which cannot be done in cans.

Sure, great studio musicians do it but that's because that's what they're accustomed to and they work in that medium all the time. Also, they have their own way of cueing eachother in more visual means.

As for "most other major cities..." I would hardly equate Nashville and LA to other major cities. I've studied with major symphony players from orchestras including Chicago Symphony, Baltimore Symphony, Atlanta Symphony, National Symphony, Seattle Sympony, Dallas, Arkansas Symphony and others (extensively with National, Baltimore and Arkansas - respectively Marty Hackleman - NSO, Vancouver Symphony, and Canadian Brass; Peter Landgren, BSO, and Robin Dauer, ASO). I dare say that these individuals have no love of playing in cans either.

Again, my point is, as a standard symphony horn player (I could care less about the other instruments, I'm focusing on horn here because that's what I know) they will NOT like playing with cans. Period.

I have posed this question to the horn forum and have received unanimous replies as to the dislike of headphones - many from very famous and quite accomplished players. As soon as I receive permission to quote these individuals, I will post some of their comments and their credentials. Heck, if you'd like, I'll post their e-mail addresses so you can feel free to contact them and inform them that they are behind the times as well.

Cheers -

J.

What's the point of having the conductor there if all the musicians are listening to a click? The conductor is there so they all don't have to listen to one! Give the conductor the click and he should conduct the orchestra to the video. Just my opinion, but this will save you a huge headache.

Isaac

Provided your conductor is doing more than just beating time, there is a great need for a conductor- even when there is a click. To keep the entire orchestra together, though, you need them all on the click. If you have rhythmic passages, you will only have them together with the click if everybody is on the same bassis of time. This will only happen if everybody is on cans. You'll get close if everybody is watching the conductor, but the time will slide- it is only human nature.

--Ben

FifthCircle wrote: Provided your conductor is doing more than just beating time, there is a great need for a conductor- even when there is a click.

Couldn't agree more!

FifthCircle wrote:
To keep the entire orchestra together, though, you need them all on the click. If you have rhythmic passages, you will only have them together with the click if everybody is on the same bassis of time. This will only happen if everybody is on cans. You'll get close if everybody is watching the conductor, but the time will slide- it is only human nature.

--Ben

I don't understand this... orchestras have "stayed with the conductor" for centuries before the click track and will continue to do so without it. It may just be the extreme competitive nature of the DC metro region's classical music scene (we have one of the most competitive scenes in the world thanks to the several military wind and string ensembles employing some of the nation's finest musicians all concentrated in one area). But...in this area, if you can't stick with the conductor - even if you vary a little...you're replaced (read: fired). A percussion colleague of mine was just fired from a mid-level symphony job because he played a couple measures off from the conductor. Granted it nearly disrupted the entire concert, but still....no grace periods for musicians.

Cheers -
J.

Cucco wrote:
I don't understand this... orchestras have "stayed with the conductor" for centuries before the click track and will continue to do so without it. It may just be the extreme competitive nature of the DC metro region's classical music scene (we have one of the most competitive scenes in the world thanks to the several military wind and string ensembles employing some of the nation's finest musicians all concentrated in one area). But...in this area, if you can't stick with the conductor - even if you vary a little...you're replaced (read: fired). A percussion colleague of mine was just fired from a mid-level symphony job because he played a couple measures off from the conductor. Granted it nearly disrupted the entire concert, but still....no grace periods for musicians.

Cheers -
J.

Ever play under a conductor with a soft down beat?

It isn't about players not being able to play with a conductor. It is about players playing with the film. Timings often need to be exact for hits in a film. Most folks doing sequences will calculate out a tempo to 3 decimal places to make this happen. Conductor's patterns aside, there is a bit of a lag when you watch- it may all be together in the group, but the conductor's lag plus the musician lag results in not playing to the film. Remember- it isn't about the art of playing in an orchestra. It is about making the music in the film work for whatever needs to happen. The way that happens in today's world is through the use of a click track.

Heck, on the video playback, you have streamers to warn the conductor what is coming up (tempo changes, end of cue, etc...).

Yes, in the old days, conductors free-conducted (and even on occasion today, you'll find somebody like John Williams doing that on a specific cue if he thinks it needs the freedom), but the music was very different than what you get today. In a world of sequencers, etc... you need things to be exact.

--Ben

Thanks for the clarification...good points.

Of course, I do still feel the necessity to caution that most symphony (non-studio) musicians (specifically horns) will not take kindly to cans. But...I've made that statement a few times, so I guess I'm now officially beating a dead horse...;)

I can see that I was not clear-- I don't know anyone who LIKES to play with cans, but I don't know anyone that REFUSES to.

In thinking back to musicians I've worked with (which includes Chicago, Atlanta, and Nashville), I played with most of them in both scenarios-- on stage playing art music, and in the studio (some big and some small) playing sessions.

Today you will be hard-pressed to find a recording of non-concert repertoire (soundtrack, etc) that was done without cans. And I will stick with my original point-- in major cities most of the symphony players have done the headphone thing. "Headphones" is synonymous with extra money.

Rich

I understand your point...I really do. But I do mean to say that many WILL refuse to play with them. Let's put it this way, some musicians do not need the supplemental income or care about studio sessions. If they get booked for a gig and they are required to use cans, they will call their subs. (and if their subs like their jobs, they won't turn the gig down.)

Take for example the following quote excerpted in its entirety from Mr. Hans Pizka:

Herr Pizka wrote:
The head phones are just used when synchronizing with
another soundtrack or to synchronize with a certain rhythm pattern & for (just before) rhythm changes.

It is nonsense to use it in classical music recordings
except for those, where a real ensemble does not exist & all voices are recorded separately & mixed together. We know about such "synthetic" results. There is no music in such recordings but they are just boring.

Why not trying another idea ? Perhaps doing an
intercontinental orchestral concert, where all work with earphones but playing in different countries & continens JUST ONLINE for listeners JUST ONLINE. The funny thing is it, they wood save the rent of the hall, the security personal, the music rental (who could check that), every listener could feed himself or herself with their preferred food & make food noise all over not disturbing any other listener, even going pee without disturbing the seat neighbour, even listening naked or in bed or on the toilet ..... Many advantages ... And nobody has to pay for the concert ticket .... (How about the living for the musicians)
-- ooops they do it from home anyway & earn their living by giving lessons - oops again, sorry, they teach online - etc. A world of music I would not like to live in.

I will allow Mr. Pizka's introduction to stand for itself:

Herr Pizka wrote:
I am 65 old, 50 years playing first horn
professionally, since 1967 with the Bavarian State Opera &
The Bavarian State Orchestra, one of the biggest orchestras
in the world & the oldest continuously existing orchestra in the western world (since 1530 !!), soloist, publisher, arranger, writer, musicologist, polyglott, passionate traveller in arts.

I think, despite the occasional broken english, Mr. Pizka's sentiment and sarcasm speak volumes. He is largely regarded as one of the world's finest hornplayers. No doubt he is a very opinionated person, but with his kind of experience, I certainly find no fault with his right to his opinions (and quite often agree with them).

I'm hoping to get Mr. Clevenger's take on this as well. In addition to being another of the greats in the horn world, he too is opinionated and outspoken and I dare say quite right in his outspoken nature.

Cheers -

Jeremy

Cucco wrote: I'm hoping to get Mr. Clevenger's take on this as well. In addition to being another of the greats in the horn world, he too is opinionated and outspoken and I dare say quite right in his outspoken nature.

I am REALLY looking forward to hearing Dale's thoughts, as I played contra-bass trombone with the CSO several times when he was playing (I was one of many "extra" trombone operators over the years) as well as on several sessions where I saw him........ wearing HEADPHONES.

Again, no one liked it, but we did it, and it was not for the sake of art, either. As for Bavaria-- I couldn't agree with Herr Pitzka more when he says:

It is nonsense to use it in classical music recordings..

No one is suggesting the performing of classical music with a cue track, but I haven't heard any evidence to suggest that "studio" material has been recorded without cans in the last 30 years.

This is a digression that has gone far afield-- perhaps we could simply respond to Joe's questions?

Rich

See...now I think we're splitting hairs here and frankly it's getting quite frustrating.

I'm curious to know which recordings you saw Mr. Clevenger (and yes, when referring to him in public, I will most definitely use "Mr. Clevenger." When cursing at him or speaking of him in private, perhaps not...) using headphones for any other reason than checking HIS specific balance.

What I'm trying to say here is simple...

if dealing with "studio" musicians, you won't have a problem with them wearing cans for clicks. However, since there aren't that many classical/soundtrack studios in the Philly area, I'm supposing Joe will be dealing with symphonic players (as he has already indicated).

I can tell you from personal experience....as a professional horn player only 3 hours outside the Philly area, that there is a slim chance of finding 4 to 5 horn players who are comfortable wearing cans while playing. A clarinet, a bone, a trumpet are all notable exceptions as these guys have likely played in studio sessions. Horn players though work entirely as a section. We don't breath without the others' approval. The commradery (sp?) in a horn section is unlike that in ANY other orchestral section and the headphones WILL hinder our communication.

In other words...I am NOT an isolated case. My suggestion TO JOE is simply that he be cautious in his approach to get "SYMPHONIC" players to wear headphones while playing. I guarantee you...piss off ONE of the hornplayers and you will gain the wrath of the entire section!

Differ in opinion all you would like, but don't tell me that I'm an isolated case. I KNOW the other horn players in the mid-atlantic area and I KNOW their preferences in this matter.

"Yes They Will!!"
"No They Won't!!"

Is this really how this discussion is devolving?

If the client wants headphones, provide them.
If some musicians don't want to wear them, unplug them.
Bill the client and make money.

Everybody happy. What's the dilema here?

I know you're not taking sides here and that's not how I'm interpreting it, but you are absolutely correct. Thank you.

My only point is that some won't want them. Period.

I don't need to be told that I'm wrong for my opinion or that I wouldn't keep a job without accepting others'.

Having worked in a Conservatory of Music for 26 years I can safely say that if given half a chance most classically trained musicians would prefer NOT to wear any headphones. If they do have to wear them they prefer the single muff design but most of them would prefer NO HEADPHONES as they are something alien to what they are use to hearing.

I have a good friend who is a classically trained cello player and played for years in a symphony orchestra. Now he makes a very good living by playing for sessions in Nashville and he has told me on more than one occasion that he can't stand to have headphones on but has to use them when he is in session. He had to relearn to play his cello with cans on and even practiced with them on so he could get use to the "sound" in the cans versus what he was hearing when he did not have them on. Playing with headphones on is somewhat similar to playing the piano with gloves on. Yes it can be done but the results may not be what you or the conductor are expecting.

Sonarerec wrote: This is a digression that has gone far afield-- perhaps we could simply respond to Joe's questions?

Rich

This conversation has gone way off topic... Please lets try to restore some civility (and less of the "I know more than you" attitutde) or the topic will be locked.

Sorry, but this forum is better than what is going on here...

--Ben

You can close it if you'd like Ben...afterall, you are the boss here. But I don't think it's out of hand, I just think things get stupid sometimes.

Instead of people accepting someone's opinion around here, they always have to show that they have bigger balls (or better microphones) than everyone else - regardless of personal experiences. It's nothing new - it's always the same people arguing and always one person making a statement and a couple other individuals challenging that opinion until they think their point has been made (and trying to discredit the original poster).

Frankly I get sick and tired of it quite easily and when I leave the forum for 3 months at a time it's to regain some sanity from this constant one-upmanship.

I'm here to offer MY advice on subjects and to learn. That's it. I have nothing to prove to anyone here but it seems that others MUST make others realize just how important they are or just how special they are.

When I see people on the boards here making statements that only a certain kind of mic is usable for certain situations or a certain pre is the only obvious choice (and it just so happens to be the pre or mic that the person making the statement owns), I get reminded of the Hybrid episode of South Park where all of the people smell and enjoy their own farts.

Censor this post if you must (I will be VERY disappointed if you do) or close the post if you must. But I think it's genuinely stupid that I make a simple comment (which I back up with facts and quotes from seasoned veterans) and I get told that my opinions are wrong, I'm behind the times (which is odd, since I am an active performer) and that I couldn't keep a job with my attitude.

Look through all of the posts here. I've made no attacks at ANYONE, yet I was told that I wouldn't get a job in LA, I was behind the times, and not in touch with the music scene in "Major" cities (of which I guess DC is not one.)

Absurd and sad.

And with that, my friends, we are done here. If you have something constructive to add, I'll make sure it gets up on to the board.

--Ben

While they're all saying "the comfy chair"...

Joe, one of the best headphone distribution systems I've seen was developed by Simon Leadley for Trackdown Scoring Stage in Sydney, Australia.

He uses the old transformer line method (75V or 100V, I'm not sure) initially developed for driving large number of installed speakers from a single power amplifier. In his design the headphone sends drive power amplifiers that in turn drive a number of transformers (their primary coils are all wired in parallel across the amplifier's output). Each transformer drives one set of headphones, or possibly more. This allows him to connect many, many headphones to the power amplifier without any problems. Plugging more or less headphones into the system makes little difference to the level into each pair.

I am not sure how relevant it is to your original question, but I always thought it was a very cool and robust idea... It is costly because transformers are involved, but if I remember correctly he had most of the bits and pieces hanging around while the place was being built and realised it would make a fine headphone distribution system.

When I'm teaching audio classes in Sydney there are times when I want/need to provide a headphone mix to 24 or more students at once. In this situation I use two or three of the Deadringer headphone boxes, mentioned earlier on this thread. They make one that has four individual output channels, each with three headphone sockets (one on the front, two on the back) and volume and tone controls. Each channel also has access to an auxiliary input with individual mix control, ideal for blending in a click at different levels. You could provide a main stereo mix for all, and by using each output channel's volume and aux mix controls, adjust the overall volume and mix/click balance for each output.

One of these low cost boxes can drive up to 12 cans with reasonable versatility. And they have a 'thru' connection on the rear so they can be daisychained.

They also make one that has 8 output channels, each with three outputs IIRC, but only level controls. I haven't played with that one, but it's an interesting thought.

None of those boxes are too rugged, however. I find there is always one or two jacks that are broken, so you'd need some redundancy. They use those deceitful jacks that look like they're screwed in with a metal nut, when in fact it is simply a metal cover over a plastic insert thing, and comes out a bit too easily.

Just got an email from this guy and though it might be something that JoeH could use.

GEAR FOR SALE
Call (705) 431-8800 or
Email:startmusic@rogers.c…

CUSTOM HEADPHONE SYSTEM CALL

32 x 16 x 6 ROLL AROUND STANDS
8 STEREO CHANNELS WITH 2 BAND EQ, BALANCE & LEVEL CONTROL
EACH STATION HAS 2 INTEGRAL HEADPHONE AMPLIFIERS

Well, it's time to revive this thread, and as promised, reveal a few things about the session, the client, etc.

Amazingly, this project did finally get off the ground, and is now completed and will be out in time for the '07 holidays. (At least that's what the studio - Warner Bros. Animation - says...)

The working/temp classical soundtrack for the storyboard had been assembled from "other" classical CD performances of this work, which the animators made the movie from. Since it was too expensive to buy the rights outright, re-recording the whole thing was actually a better solution, at least $$$-wise. Since LA and NYC were out of the question logistically and financially, the project ended up in Philadelphia, which was (in in hindsight) a VERY good fit for all involved.

We did indeed go with (almost) 60 single-ear headsets for the players, (an expanded chamber orchstra) while the conductor alternated between a single and double-ear set, depending on what he was listening for. Every player had 15-20 feet of cable leading to a box near their chair with a volume control for each set, so there were no problems with anyone needing more - or less - headphone level.

FWIW, not one person complained or had a problem with the click track per se; it was understood when they took the gig that this was going to be the case. (So, if you signed on to play the gig, you knew what you were in for.) Many players knew the work in their sleep anyway; they do it every year at Christmas time here with the PA Ballet.

The session was one full day of tech/setup and working with the conductor (Dirk Brasse, from Brussels) ahead of time, then three actual recording sessions over two days to record three 18-minute "reels" of music for this animated 50 minute cartoon from WB. The music was entirely selections from Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker (not in sequence from the ballet, however) and was performed & recorded in a large church in Center City Philadelphia, during regular business hours. (My reNOVAtor tools got a nice workout in post!)

Picture & midi sync (with clicktrack output to the cans) was with an iMAC dual pentium running Digital Performer 5.0, and audio recording was with Sequoia V8 running 22 tracks of audio; 20 mics, w/click and SMPTE. Sync was with MOTU's A/V syncronizer, although we hardly needed much of a lock with today's DAW stability, etc. Most of the cuts were 4-5 minutes max., many much shorter.

Perhaps the hardest part for people who don't do this every day in scoring stages was to wrap one's mind around the concept of click track performance itself (and to get the technology to work properly, of course!). These were anywhere from 15 seconds to 5 minute cuts, each with a two measure countdown and subsequent click track that sometimes sped up or slowed down.

The real challenge was to play the parts correctly (and musically!), stay in sync with the click & the conductor, and still (in Dirk's words) try to make some "ART" out of it. Everyone had a blast, and truly rose to the occasion.

Each cut was rehearsed a few times until it felt right, then the conductor did several takes until both he and myself were happy with what we got. (his criteria was of course more musical, while mine was often about dodging buses, trucks, and street noises from outside.)

After the sessions ended on a Tuesdsay afternoon, I had the rest of the week to mix it all (surround & stereo) pick or edit the best "Take" of each cue, and drop it/assemble it along the time line of each 18 minute reel. I used Quicktime Pro to convert the Avid2 MOV reels (grrrr) to something a little more manageable for Sequoia to handle, and the rest was a breeze.

The following Monday, at 6 a.m. (just as I was leaving for vacation), the Hard disk and DVD-Rs containing the music & raw materials was waiting for FEDex to come pick it up and wisk with away to CA and the movie studio. (Hey, no pressure, right?! :roll: )

There's more to tell if anyone wants to know more details. I'm told it's now completed and on to replication; everyone at WB is happy, and it will be out by the holiday season.

It's probably the hardest/biggest/complex thing I've worked on in a long time, and there were more than a few moments of white-knuckle panic and terror on everyone's part. (Thank god for cell phones, good coffee, and great tech support....including Ben!!! BIG THANKS, dude! :wink: )

I've been away from these forums for several weeks now, but I hope that now that the dust is settling and life will return to something resembling normal. Rrrrrrrrright!

Congratulations, Joe! What a contract!

Perhaps when you have back come down to earth and you have a few spare moments you could list the mics you used and their positioning relative to the members of the orchestra?

Thanks, Boswell. Not surprisingly, mic choices and positioning were the least of my worries; I had a lot of stuff to pick from, although as you can imagine we didn't have much time to tweak or adjust. The Sunday setup was WITHOUT the musicians, so I had to go with what I knew already worked with these players, in that church & setup in particular.

Aside from about 15 minutes of "Play & tweak" time during the first session, we pretty much had to hit the mark & go, making any changes beyond that would seriously impact the overall sound from one cut to the next....

If I could figure out a way to put pictures up here, I'd give you the stage plot... We were lucky in that it was a VERY big church, wich a great mix of carpet & hardwoods where we needed it, and a huge, high ceiling (with some kind of acoustical tile/treatment, too!) for lots of smooth, creamy reverb. (I added next to none in the final mix, save for a few spot mics that needed some extra sheen.)

The percussion and most of the brass were up on the "Altar" area, high above and behind the rest. The Trpts and some of the winds were mid level, on and around the steps, while the core of the orchestra - strings mostly, plus celese & harp - were all down on the main floor of the sanctuary. They had taken out the first four or five rows of pews a long time ago, since the church is often used for big choirs with orchestra, etc. (We expect to come back here for more soundtrack work, when/if it happens again.)

I got the main sound I wanted with a 5.1 array hanging almost directly over the conductor's head. Three DPA 4006 TL's for L, C, & R., using an AEA Decca boom, with two AT 4051's for the Ls, Rs, facing the rear of the hall, on tall stands at the same height as the front three. For the most part, I needed little else, but the spot mics on the sections where a great help when rounding out some of the parts.

Due to space, available inputs and all the usual considerations, we went with spot/touchup mics on each section, a total of 20 in all. There were vintage KMi-84s on the Vl1s, 2nds & Violas, AT 4050 on the celli, MXL V6 on the basses. Some SM81's on the winds, Audix SCX1's on the celeste and harp. More assorted AT 4050's and 4040's on "percussion world", tymps, and french horns, with my much-loved AEA R84 on the low brass & tuba. (WOW!!!! What a sound....)

Surprisingly, I had little pressure from anyone on choices or placement; it was assumed I knew the hall, the music & the players to get it done correctly. Happily, everyone had their job to do, and did it well, so the tech side of things came together beautifully.

As you can imagine, there were dozens of OTHER things going on, entirely separate from the nuts & bolts of it all that made the gig really, um.....interesting! :-)

cool!
did the players only get click, or a little monitor mix as well?

Most times, it was just click. Once in a while, for rehearsal purposes, we'd bring up the original audio. This was done at one point when they were doing two cues that were not traditional music; one was an orchestral bed for an original song being added, which was a little tough to track on its own, until they heard how the piece was supposed to gently speed up and down in certain places. Once they got the hang of it, we turned off the guide track and went back to click-only for the takes.

Amazingly, I had little bleed at all from the cans. Since it was single-ear only, there were no open earcups blowing sound out into the air. We had some early instances of cans no being worn (and laying on the floor blowing click sound UP) but once we caught that, it was pretty smooth and a non-issue from then on.

Thanks, Joe. Nice description of it all.