Although, the original topic was discussed at length and in depth on the first page, so it's not as if the topic was ignored. Yea, it did veer off - as more than a few threads have been known to do - and maybe this one did end up coming off the rails entirely towards the end, but it's not as if the original topic wasn't discussed, because it was.

The thing about today's technology is that it's all tied together so much.... so that it can be hard to discuss converters in and of themselves without also discussing the other facets of digital recording that are related to it - such as pre amps, OB processing, re-amping, etc..

For example, when someone authors a post looking for advice or suggestions on which microphones they should buy, why is it that nearly all of us will respond with "what style are you recording" , and, "what pre are you using?" or "which audio I/O do you have'?

The answer is that it's because the entire chain matters, not just one link of it.

So yes, this thread veered off a bit. If I was partially to blame for that, I sincerely apologize. But, everything discussed in the thread - albeit indirectly at times - does in fact ultimately relate to the original subject in the end, because eventually, it all inter-twines, and in the end, all of it matters.

IMHO of course.

d/

I was trying to stop the discussion about a mix contest and some nearly trolling posts that was going on at the end.. Not to blame anyone in particular ;)

the "contest" was never meant to be a contest. it was to be a selfish learning experience for me that didnt work out.
i wanted to hear donnys raw tracks. compare them to my own.

i wanted to listen to audiokid's mix to learn and ask as many questions as he would answer.

i wanted to get feedback on whats wrong with my mix and learn from that.

i still dont understand why everyone got so angry over that, and im sorry i called audiokid bignose :)

I guess I got annoyed rather than angry that somebody was asking to compare mixes in order to confirm gear choices. For me if you want to A/B stuff, you need everything else unchanged.
So, sharing mixes to exchange on the results, creativity and technic is a wonderfull Idea !
We should find open rights stems and compare our mixes for fun and Learning, THAT I'm 100% favorable ! ;)

my "i can burp louder than you" approach, was flawed..
this is not a drinking game

It's fairly simple guys... just create another thread in which to continue the discussion - at which point, who's converters are better, who's preamps are weaker, who likes UAD and who doesn't, etc., can all be centered into one thread... ;) like this:

http://www.recording.org/index.php?threads/thread-spin-off-mixing-with-and-without-stuff.57409/

DonnyThompson, post: 417458, member: 46114 wrote: FWIW, here's a mix (not really a "mix" per se') with all processing and effects removed from all tracks, buses and master. Any effect heard is because it was printed that way (as on guitars) or because it's part of the original sound (as in synth patches) There was a bit of GR on the front end going into the DAW to tame transients on things like Kick, Snare, Bass, and Vocals.

Here it is. You guys decide whether or not these tracks are enough of an acceptable standard from which to run your tests.

[MEDIA=soundcloud]donnythompson/still-see-you-stripdown-2-july-21-mp3
[[url=http://[/URL]="https://soundcloud…"]View: https://soundcloud…]="https://soundcloud…"]View: https://soundcloud…]

That's a very nice tune, Donny. I like the production a lot. If I were going to nit-pick, the first thing I noticed is that the snare sounds to me like it could use more "room". But good work on this one.

Chris kept harping on asked and answered issues, refusing to accept that others hear things he can't because he apparently has damaged his hearing by banging loudly on various objects. i surmise (albeit perhaps incorrectly) he was pushing the issue because he has UAD plugs and runs a site where he hawks custom made drum tracks using said UAD plugs and felt a need to defend and promote UAD plugs as the best thing since legal weed. the more posts he makes here, the more links to his site he establishes. some people define this as spamming or trolling.

now to the issues. my main issue with UAD is it only runs on Macs. i hate Apple. it is a nasty dirty company with atrocious business practices. screw them! (this could be a whole 'nother thread; Why I hate Apple)

regarding plugs, i have always been a proponent of hardware. hardware sounds better, hardware lasts longer. you don't have to update hardware. it never quits working because you bought a new computer or you were forced into a new OS or upgrade. last hardware sounds better. (repetition intended). plugs are nice because you can automate them in the DAW but other than that no plug will ever stand up to a side by side comparison to a hardware version of the same processor.

last to an online converter "mix off" or comparison. i don't see how it can be done. say person 1 posts some tracks to be used. they have already used whatever converters they have. any tracks made available will have this problem unless the same song was tracked simultaneously through several set of pre determind converters. once that was accomplished, everyone could mix away using their preferred recipe but then we run into the same problem with playback everyone who participates would need to have all the converters specified and a way to switch between them for comparisons. the difficulties are imho insurmountable.

I use P.C. I use UAD.. No one is disputing that hardware is better than plug ins. No one said anything about a converter mix off. I'm not spamming or trolling just repeatadley responding to people talking about different things.

This thread went off rails when audiokid was describing Zzzzz.. and that lead to a Uad discussion for some reason..
Whatever.... it doesn't matter...

For the record.. Hardware is better than plug ins.
Higher end converters are better than cheap ones.

This is a good converter test.. for the OP there is a fireface in there.. Not sure if it's the same as what you have now.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/424688-big-d-converter-test-session.html

which has more influence on a track(s)? A to D or D to A? capture or playback?

A to D

well the there you are! unless everyone used the same A to D, any comparison is irrelevant.

For the record.. Hardware is better than plug ins.
Higher end converters are better than cheap ones.

there you are again. audiokid uses almost exclusively hardware. just by nature of that, one could assume that his mix's would be better.

the only difference would be one's tastes / skills set.

I'm confused. what scenario are you talking about?. The mix idea was pitting Uad vs Samplitude plugs in against each other using Donny's tracks..

If you mean that maybe we should continue in Donny's new thread..

If not,.. what scenario do you mean?..

This is an interesting compilation of chipsets from different converters.. the chips are only one component of course. Other components would be a factor as well.

I would imagine 2 units having the same chipset would be in the same range fidelity wise.... different, but the same range...

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/542009-audio-interfaces-their-ad-da-chips-listed.html?highlight=ad+da+converters

wrong ! higher end box's have better analog circuits / pre amps out put amps etc. the difference between low volt electronics vs. 30 + volt rails can be remarkable. in many ways chipsets are just mucky muck the manufacturers use to confuse everyone. it's easy to imagine a converter that uses discreet electronics and a superior power supply outperforming a lesser box with the same chipset but with integrated circuits and a cheezo power supply much like Alesis or the Behringer box mentioned.

I didn't realize anyone was angry lol

FWIW, if Josh and I continued this, converters are irrelevant. It would be UAD vs stock Samplitude.

Kurt Foster, post: 417825, member: 7836 wrote: wrong ! higher end box's have better analog circuits / pre amps out put amps etc. the difference between low volt electronics vs. 30 + volt rails can be remarkable. in many ways chipsets are just mucky muck the manufacturers use to confuse everyone. it's easy to imagine a converter that uses discreet electronics and a superior power supply outperforming a lesser box with the same chipset but with integrated circuits and a cheezo power supply much like Alesis or the Behringer box mentioned.

That would be the other components... In the end someone making a purchase has to listen to what they are buying and evaluate for themselves.

I'm not saying to anyone buy cheap stuff.

i'm not angry at all. lol! i figured out a long time ago not to let this stuff make my blood boil. very unhealthy anger it is.i also commend Chris for keeping cool as well.

ok , say you use the same tracks and 2 different people mixed them using Sequoia and UAD. i'm going to guess that the Sequoia mix would be better excluding skills and tastes. i base this on the decisions many other high end mixers have chosen. in your case BT, i would go further and say i think you would win based on that you use hardware. i would love to see you guys do it!

Chris Perra, post: 417827, member: 48232 wrote: That would be the other components... In the end someone making a purchase has to listen to what they are buying and evaluate for themselves.

I'm not saying to anyone buy cheap stuff.

and neither am i ... lol! i'm using an Alesis 26 i/o and AI 1's ..... all wall wart powered. for what i do it's fine.

when you get the tracks up i might make a stab at it with Mix Bus. or better yet, maybe Donny could.

Donny started a new thread and is looking for input as to who is interested in taking a stab at his tracks.. If enough people are interested he'll upload them.

Lets go there.. and agree that better converters are better. The converter test above should help out someone who wants to jump from Rme Fireface to something else.

http://www.recording.org/index.php?threads/thread-spin-off-mixing-with-and-without-stuff.57409/

Exactly Kurt.

But just to clarify, I wouldn't use my hardware at all. Just stock Samplitude. (stock EQ, stock comps, ITB reverb, ITB delay, capture it and Done.

Simple lol.

When I saw the Dangerous BAX as a plug-in, that was the end for me. Talk about canned food lol. I cannot believe people are buying into this BS.

the harrison mix bus?
how do you like it

so far i just love it. i haven't done much with it yet but it has great eq and compression .. and from what i've heard so far it sounds very analog. all i have done is load some mix's in and tweaked with them a bit listening through phones. still struggling to get a decent set of monitors.
i want Equator 5's hint hint .... just a few shopping days 'till my B-day! :whistle:

Donny's got it too. he's probably done more with it than i have ...

I bought it a while ago.. wasn't sure what it was... Opened it up and said.. ughhh I have to learn another daw?..

Haven't used it since... I should make myself one day to see what it can do...

It's hard to have to learn a new daw when you know another one so well.

it's based on Ardour so if you know that it's easy. i learned Ardour because it comes as a free program with Linux.

it was just on sale for 39$ too

that's when i bought it!

Here's my response to Mix Bus:

http://www.recording.org/index.php?threads/thread-spin-off-mixing-with-and-without-stuff.57409/

I read Aurora 16 are starting to show inconsistencies due to heat. Its why I have been so adamant on 8 channel ADDA over these larger 16 and 32 channel one rack with a single power supply unit. My RME ADI-8 QS were so nice and ran cool enough, I really regret selling them but I needed another 16 channels @$6000 that I just couldn't afford.
This is most likely why Prism and RME (to name a few) have kept their high end 8 channel DAC's in one or two space racks. The new Prism Atlas is a two space 8 channel.
I hate to cross post to GS but I just read this on the Orion now, worth reading.
I keep my Orion 32 well ventilated and my studio is cool. For those that aren't aware of how heat can effect your ADDA, think again. Just a guess, but when buying second hand, I'd be asking how hot something gets. These large channel DAC's (especially the combo's with pre's) may sound great the day you buy them but I bet the ones that are running hot are not as true on every channels as it once was.

Imagine the smearing from cooked converters

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/10319585-post22.html
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/moan-zone/894806-lynx-aurora-im-disappointed-2.html

Interesting, one would think that the company who made them would put a silent fan or better heatsink.:unsure:

pcrecord, post: 418179, member: 46460 wrote: Interesting, one would think that the company who made them would put a silent fan or better heatsink.:unsure:

There, you nailed it!
I read somewhere that Lynx claims the chassis is the heat sink.

High end is all about detail (sound, stability and longevity). It costs money to add or keep detail in or out. To create a product that is stable but quiet, less is more as in the Atlas. Its a $7000 converter taking two spaces. Its quiet, needs no fan and will most likey be just as stable on all channels for years after.
Each time you add something you also need more of something else to either power it, filter it etc. Converters need a very stable power supply. Thus, we also invest in a global power conditioner to protect and keep everything stable.