your talking about the field of 'audio production'. if you go to school they are likely going to have you pruchase these 2 books, 'the mixing engineers handbook, and the recording engineers handbook' by bobby owsinski. they're like text books, but they are very practical too. i know you said you learn better in groups, but these are usually required reading, and they are easy reads, and more importantly, practical. you can keep them by your computer, and when it comes time for compression, or whatever, it'll offer you a step by step approach, to help you get where ya need.

Since i've heard mixed emotions about college level audio production courses, from my peers, and you express concern about the cost, i suggest to you that you look up a local Professional studio(s) and ask them if you can take private lessons from them. my boss does this over here in the u.s, and i have had to go thru the material as part of my staff training. it'll be cheaper than college, and more focused on what exactly you need/want to learn. sure you don't get a diploma, but it;s your knowledge/experience that gets ya where ya need to be. this kind of training will allow you to work on some high end gear, in a real working environment. i';ve heard some issues w/ people going to universities, and not having good luck getting studio time when they wanted and having to go during inconvenient hours. plus, if you do ok, you'll likely be able to volunteer on real sessions at the studio, and hey, maybe you'll be there when someone else can't and get paid!!!!

kmetal, post: 400784 wrote: your talking about the field of 'audio production'. if you go to school they are likely going to have you pruchase these 2 books, 'the mixing engineers handbook, and the recording engineers handbook' by bobby owsinski. they're like text books, but they are very practical too. i know you said you learn better in groups, but these are usually required reading, and they are easy reads, and more importantly, practical. you can keep them by your computer, and when it comes time for compression, or whatever, it'll offer you a step by step approach, to help you get where ya need.

Since i've heard mixed emotions about college level audio production courses, from my peers, and you express concern about the cost, i suggest to you that you look up a local Professional studio(s) and ask them if you can take private lessons from them. my boss does this over here in the u.s, and i have had to go thru the material as part of my staff training. it'll be cheaper than college, and more focused on what exactly you need/want to learn. sure you don't get a diploma, but it;s your knowledge/experience that gets ya where ya need to be. this kind of training will allow you to work on some high end gear, in a real working environment. i';ve heard some issues w/ people going to universities, and not having good luck getting studio time when they wanted and having to go during inconvenient hours. plus, if you do ok, you'll likely be able to volunteer on real sessions at the studio, and hey, maybe you'll be there when someone else can't and get paid!!!!

Hey Kmetal, That was a great advice.

I have decided to study on my own with videos, books and try to get as much experience as possible in a studio. I am living in London and I will try to volunteer a studio where I can learn from doing and seeing other professionals.

Even if, as I said, I enjoy learning with others and I feel I am more productive when I am surrounded with people, I haven't have great experiences at colleges/universities, etc. Sometimes, or most of the time, the general level is not good enough and you finish just spending weeks learning what is an EQ. So I think the best for me at this moment its to learn on my own!!

Thank you :)

learn to fabricate metal and weld or go to business school and take culinary classes as a second major.

that way you will be able to get a job.

forget music. it doesn't pay anymore. the days of making a living in the music industry are over. don't waste a student loan on audio school. no one ever gets a job in studios anymore.

As unfortunate as it it is, Kurt isn't far off the mark in terms of studio work. There are big, pro rooms closing down everywhere, leaving mid-level and low level studios, but these are mostly sole proprietorships where the owner is also the engineer...and the secretary...and the receptionist...and the head accountant... and the janitor. LOL

And while you may get the occasional assistant engineer gig at these rooms, it won't be a consistent thing.

Now.. I don't know about Europe, but I can tell you that here in the States, there is still a solid amount of work with AV Companies - those audio/visual services that work in the corporate sector doing seminars, conventions, meetings, etc. Much of this work happens at convention centers, upper level hotels in ball rooms, etc.

They do everything from providing PA to shooting video to setting up lights to huge screen Power Point presentations... and beyond.

I have a friend who owns and operates one of these companies and he is busy, with a full crew, almost every week.

So, perhaps what you might consider is live engineering - but if I were you I'd look at getting as much education in multimedia - audio and video - as possible.

The good news is that much of the same principles you would use for recording are completely transferable to live scenarios as well... gain staging, signal routing, gain reduction, EQ, etc., regardless of whether you are in a studio or working a live FOH console... these principles all remain the same, they are just used a little differently in live situations.

Getting an education in the multimedia arts wouldn't be a bad idea, you just need to look at courses that focus on live audio, video, lighting, etc. instead of studio courses... But I have no idea where to tell you to go for this in your area.

And, be prepared to work for the first year or so after graduation for next to nothing.

Interning at a big company will help you get your foot in the door, but you're not going to be getting a decent paycheck for awhile; you're going to have to start on the lower rungs of the ladder. You'll make coffee, get lunches, wrap cables, pick up and deliver equipment, clean gear...

Just know that the days of walking into a major studio, starting out as an assistant engineer and working on a major artist's record a month or so later are long gone.

fwiw
-d.

metal fab / welding / heavy equipment operator ....or business degree /learn to be a chef open a restaurant ... fugedett aboud audio. there's no value in it. people don't want to pay for music. instead of coughing up .99 cents for wave download they will spend hours searching for a free mp3.

there's definately money to made in audio. whether it's gonna be 60 hours a week behind an ssl, in a large professional designed and built studio, i'd be surprised if there are more than a couple thousand people in the USA that are in that position.

so well rounded is the key.

teach instrument lessons, do audio tech work for restaurants/bars clubs, live sound, work for a touring company, music retail. the area of acoustics/acoustical construction is becoming more more more relevant now that everyone has they're own equipment. sure the budgets are lower than 'pro gigs' but if you made $200-5k treating/building project rooms, that's fine, cuz there are more and more popping up. it's one area of 'music' that affordable equipment is having a 'growing influence'

most studios are mid sized, and donny pointed out the owner is usually the only worker, in addition to maybe, an assistant. i just happened to find myself in a situation mildly better than that, but even my case is pretty rare.

i have a degree in business, i can tell you first hand it is NOT the way to go, unless you;d like to work as a cashier at a grocery store. every 20 something who doesn't have the nerve to pick a real (and specific) major goes for business. feel like working at a bank for minimum wage, business degree is for you. "business" is a blanket statement scam of a degree by schools to fool people to take out student loans at absurdly high interest rates. I'll sum up a degree in business 'by low, sell high', don't have 'too much, to too little inventory' there ya go, 35k worth of advice, and 4 years not wasted. wanna make more money than most average people in three days? be a bartender.

while what people are saying is true, i'm really sick of the 'quit before you get started' attitude people some people have towards new engineers. as long as you understand that it is not common to find 40+ hrs a week in a studio, go for it. it doesn;t sound like you wanna do it for a living anyway, it seems to me you are just interested in furthering your skills. Like i said, a career in music is just as possible as it ever was, you just have to be well-rounded. the more opportunities you can feel comfortable saying yes too, the better.

i said business degree / second major culinary arts and then open a restaurant. people always need to eat. but you need how do keep inventories , track sales and administer books and payroll. that's where the business degree comes in. learn to cook and run a business do book keeping, taxes etc. ok?
oh yeah ... at your restaurant, sell booze.

don't do audio .. unless you want to work like a dog (someone mentioned 16 hour days) and have your job description change every 16 months. if you get off installing home theatres for rich assholes maybe then it's for you.

there's too many drippy pimple farms who think audio is a glamourous profession screwing it up. everyone's got an m box and a free version of Garage Band & Ableton and an MXL mic pac. we see them here everyday asking how to wipe their butts. three weeks later their gears up for sale on CraigsList. do anything but audio. how can people have a "career" in music when very few musicians even get paid? in my expierence the musicians need to get paid so the can buy instruments and services. most clubs / venues doen't pay well if at all ... in some cases the musicians have to "pay to play".

and i'm sick of people saying "go for it ... you can do it". if we had clamped down on the wanna be's and crap gear 10 years ago / screen some of the dweebs out in the first place maybe there would still be some semblance of a studio business in the US.

some will say they are running a successful mid level studio but from what i see they come and go and there are even fewer of them left than big rooms and they are not making money. the studio business is a dying art. don't say i didn't warn you.

I'm with you Kurt.

Get some SM58's and cheap monitors and start recording pro like Remy keeps pushing. And she wonders why there's no work on her block lol.. Who needs pro gear when you have brains.

C'mon now guys.. you can't shut down everyone who wants to pursue audio as a career. Everyone of us started out in the same position. There was a time when we all knew nothing about audio, regardless of where we stand as professionals now, It's not like we came out of the womb knowing how to XY a string section or what 1k was, ya know.

Kurt, Chris, you guys didn't start out on the gear you have now and you know you didn't. It took us all years of dedication and discipline to our craft, and there was a time when we knew little to nothing about it, just as there are people in the newer generation coming up that don't know anything... but you can't shut down their desire to learn, if their desire is true.

And the assumption that every new entry level person into this craft is satisfied with an M Box, a Chinese condenser and a cracked copy of Sonar is a grand assumption indeed, and far too presumptuous. Give some of these new guys a break. We ain't gonna be here forever. I'd also wager that the generation of cookers before us recording orchestras and big bands were rolling there eyes at us, too, as we rolled tape on distorted guitars and banging drums.

Give them a break. It's not as if we're the last guys to do this, ya know. That's a pretty egotistical assumption to make.

-d.

it's the stress test ...

when i started there was NO cheap gear. the cheapest things were semi pro rigs from companies like Dokkorder or Teac , RTR's from Akai or Sony and none of it was what we could call affordable.

i was born a poor white kid in a shack where there weren't even any tracks to be from the wrong side of. it snowed everyday and i walked miles uphill both to and from school. we ate grass clippings and leaves from the trees i collected and i didn't have clothes, i had a clothe.

no really, the cool kids had vox amps and kent guitars. a vox super beatle cost $1000. those days a 3 bedroom house was $14,000 and a corvette was $6,000. a teac 4 track cost over $1000 and my Dad was an auto worker for GM who brought home 100 bucks a week. nothing was cheap or easy. yet ..... ???? here i am. and it wern't easy. i struggled and saved scratched to learn, gleaning every tid bit of knowledge and information on the business i could get my grubs on . i didn't have the luxury of just hitting a few keystrokes and retrieving all the information i needed in the flash of an eye.

anyway the point is as with cheap rack crap beersliger products, we should stop coddling every newbie that comes along .... we should slap them around, make fun of them and put obstacles in their paths tell them honestly when they suck and that they will never go to Hollywood. they need to be discouraged. this way only the strong will persevere. only those who really have a passion will keep trying no matter what everyone else says. talent and quality grows from rejection. in the case of the passionate abject failure breeds success

it's far too easy to claim the title of "producer" or "recording engineer" these days. it has cheapened the craft and run a lot of people who have worked hard to get where they "were" out of the industry while schmucks like Skrillex get to be stars.

just look at this guy ....   there's something wrong here ....  

and to tell the truth ... my comments about school and business wasn't bad advice ... he's far better off not trying to make a carrier in the music industry as it is today. even if he does find sucess, it's going to be temporary ... do you really think they will be playing dangermause in ten years? i don't.

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DonnyThompson, post: 402203 wrote: C'mon now guys.. you can't shut down everyone who wants to pursue audio as a career. Everyone of us started out in the same position. There was a time when we all knew nothing about audio, regardless of where we stand as professionals now, It's not like we came out of the womb knowing how to XY a string section or what 1k was, ya know.

Kurt, Chris, you guys didn't start out on the gear you have now and you know you didn't. It took us all years of dedication and discipline to our craft, and there was a time when we knew little to nothing about it, just as there are people in the newer generation coming up that don't know anything... but you can't shut down their desire to learn, if their desire is true.

And the assumption that every new entry level person into this craft is satisfied with an M Box, a Chinese condenser and a cracked copy of Sonar is a grand assumption indeed, and far too presumptuous. Give some of these new guys a break. We ain't gonna be here forever. I'd also wager that the generation of cookers before us recording orchestras and big bands were rolling there eyes at us, too, as we rolled tape on distorted guitars and banging drums.

Give them a break. It's not as if we're the last guys to do this, ya know. That's a pretty egotistical assumption to make.

-d.

Mushroom Studio's just closed their doors last week too. The pro audio recording industry is done imo. At least for my devoted attention.
I suppose I could ride out the demise a bit longer but its all gone stupid to me. My studio is now all boxed up and I'm ready to close this page in my life and move on now too. Its been an interesting study here indeed. I achieved what I set out to do here.

The good news. I've discovered how awesome hybrid is.

Regarding Kurts last post.

I couldn't agree more. For 10 years I've known Kurt, he has been trying to stop stupid and support the well deserving. We've had our disagreements but I see him as a hero. He's one of those people that stands up even if he looses profit. That's what I like about him. These are the people that this country used to be made of.

But, all that being said, we can't stop the reasons why its a dying industry. We are constantly encouraging low end methods in topics that clearly don't belong in the same discussion. This is also about free speech and everyone thinking they deserve to be heard. People now-a-days think they are entitled to everything too.

Yup. like I want to keep listening to budget methods in a topic I start about critical listening turn cheap.

So, am I an elitists? Or am I a guy who wants to have an intelligent conversation in an clearly dedicated hybrid topic , keep it on track and attract more people interested in what I prefer. Am I an elitist if I say, get off my lawn?
Where are all the other pro's gone? We kept the door open, didn't check or make stupid accountable and now its too late to shut it.

Does that make me an elitist. Well, I worked hard to get here but this doesn't make me right either. Depending on how you look at it all, a $5000 recording system is good enough.
The industry isn't worth my time anymore. Life is too short to suck at it. I've tried to keep topics on track many times over this duration here. Even deleted idiots that keep coming back stinking up the place. Shills, gear pimps and software striken sheep all amazed over digital editing have really taken its toll.
They use the free speech card until they became the majority in every area of this industry. The guys busy don't have time to spend like that so what becomes the largest voice?
Majority of opinions and information is subject to the economy, fashion and the unemployed. Yup. its a big topic but not worth talking about.

This last year I discovered of few critical area's that pretty much did it for me. Most people's monitoring systems suck so bad we can't even discuss sound anymore. People are impaired and being fed and spreading mass information. No one wants to hear about things they cannot afford or that takes time to master. Fast food wins this one too. ITB is simple and affordable. The magic is gone.
Did you all take the time to listen to the example I just deleted about automated mastering vs what I did in a few minutes. I annihilated a song that one of our members posted. Who was part of this problem. Passing on information that we can use the BS software to master music. A cheap advertisement on a product that looked to be his product that he was trying to sell to the kids. What a bunch of BS.

I would love to spend this next year annihilating all the software crap but I don't think anyone really cares. Why, because if they want better, its costs money. So lets all keep it stupid and affordable. So, there's where the business is going.

I look at my trade and talent like a fine tuned athlete. Gifted people were the ones that got us here. Once science got in, we lost something. We lost a connection and commitment to our sole and honesty. We lost accountability. We've lost the reason to become a master in real time. Its all an illusion. Video really was the end. Video does not belong in music. Its cool, but it always spoils the magic between the listener and the song. For movies, nothing better than great soundtracks but for commercial music. What a facade.

The sad truth. The economy has made us think and promote cheap and turned many into hypocrites too. Its also created some new approaches which I have been part of, so, I'm part of the problem and the solution. My biggest beef is when pro's start supporting junk because that's all they can afford, its painted a clear picture for me now. I can't afford to invest my life in an industry that doesn't support itself.
Its all a mess to me. It appears to be just about selling software now.

The cream ( which I feel I am part of) is rising and something is clearly shaking, but I question why I would ever recommend this business to anyone as a business. Its breeding a whole new generation of music makers. I love the sound I get with my hybrid rig but who cares, really.
A nice boat, putting this all behind me is looking pretty good now.

Regarding support to our new generation, I don't think we need to be discouraging the passionate people, I'm all for inspiring and helping anyone I can, up to a point. But to be honest, there isn't much left in it for me to talk about anymore either. People challenge me on this hybrid stuff who have never even used such marvelous gear. And never will in their lifetime, yet they act like they know what the **** they are talking about. It boggles my mind.

Generally speaking, I think I'm speaking for the studios and musicians that invested their lives in this. I used to be proud to be a musician, not so much anymore..

In the end and to all those wanting to do this for a living, I don't believe things will ever return to what we once knew. The human race is a weird bunch and this is one flacky industry.

Bottom line:
Its about the music not the sound and that should be your driving force. I got into this because of my love and passion for music and sound. The sound part costs money, the music part is free. If you can figure that all out, and put food on the table without loosing your way, all the power to you.

Generally speaking, I think I'm speaking for the studios and musicians that invested their lives in this. I used to be proud to be a musician, not so much anymore..

Well, there has got to be a passion for what you do, or you'll find yourself looking at this craft as just another job... and if it's become just another job, then there are certainly far better paying jobs out there.

I'm not sure I see the point in throwing it all away, but I can understand the frustration.

You can't change the way things are, and you can't really educate people, either. All you can do is to do what you do because you want to, and if you can manage to eek out a living doing it, then you're in a better position than many others.

Personally, and I've said it before, I think you are on the cusp of the next big thing, and I think you should ride it out... but if you've lost the passion for it and you're simply looking at this as a burden now, then yes, life is far too short to do something that you no longer enjoy.

You were a musician first... how much time have you devoted with your new gear to work on your own stuff? In the end, if you ignore that artist side, then nothing will remain but the business, and if you no longer like being in the business, then yes, you should probably consider other options.

The finger of blame can be pointed in several different directions... as Kurt has mentioned, people spend more time looking for free garbage downloads as opposed to paying a few bucks for something decent; and you'll never conquer that mentality. But in the end, is doesn't matter who is to blame. All you can do is choose your course, stay your course and direct your passion to what you love to do, regardless of what others think.

I don't believe that success is measured by "this preamp" or "that console". We've all heard plenty of garbage tracked on million dollar gear. Success, at least to me, is measured by how I feel about what I have accomplished, musically and personally.

There have been times in my life when I had more money than I knew what to do with, yet I was unhappy, unsatisfied. There have been times when I was dirt poor - and having the time of my life creatively.

Your success isn't measure by your Neos, Chris... and Kurt's success isn't measured by his high end analog console or tape deck. Yes, we work hard for what we have. None of us was "given" anything other than a chance to swim.

But at the end of the day, it isn't what we have that makes us... but what we do.

In my humble opinion, of course.

-d.

Yup, from a passion POV, you said that right Donny.

But if we are talking about this as a business, a life career then its a different story. As far as doing something you love, I cannot think of one thing I would rather do, but when people in this industry don't have any money or reason to pay you, I wouldn't recommend it as a business to get into. I'm one of the lucky ones so making money in music is not a life saving problem for me. I got smart long ago and became very proficient in all area's of this industry, plus got a trade.

Thanks for your kind words, but to clarify, the Neos or any gear for that matter has nothing to do with why I posted this. Its not why I bought it either. I got it and a few other tools for a few reasons that go deeper into things in the business for me. One was to confirm whether hybrid done a certain way actually made a difference in how I mixed and if I could in fact make music better sounding and louder. It definitely does all this.

Studios are closing their doors because they cannot make money in it. Anyone that wants to eat and have a family should be well aware of the pro's and con's when following a passion. Passions are a gift and a burden and most creative people are terrible at seeing things clearly. They fight business and reject ever thinking that their art has anything to do with money. The fact is, everyone on the block has a computer and thinks they can record and mix music. Thats a lot of people taking up space and why so many are going broke today.

If I was looking to hire someone in this industry, MIDI and programming with serious musical knowledge would be high on my list. If I was the OP, I wouldn't go into the music business at all. One big reason is, there isn't the same opportunities to get the experience you need in the first place. The entire industry is in the toilet. Trades are where its at this next 2 decades. That will pay your bills and able you to acquirer gems like a Neos. Then you can sit back and enjoy making music at a higher level without starving.

Toni, I'm talking to you here:

While most people will tell you that it's harder than ever to earn money in the music industry, I would tend to argue almost the opposite. I got started with one used microphone and a cheap usb mixer in 2009, and a year and a half later I was making records for 10 bucks an hour. Now I charge $25 bucks and I never have to look far for work. I'm no professional like Chris and Donny and the other guys here, but I've only been at it for a few years. I'm miles ahead of a Full Sail or Berklee student who entered in 2009, has twenty grand in student loans and is hoping to find an internship when he graduates next year so that he can work for free for a year or two.

Toni, you probably will never be a queen bee making six digits sitting behind a $400k SSL desk with your assistant bees buzzing around you. But if you are a good problem solver, able to learn from your mistakes, and just have a burning passion for making good music, you'll do just fine.

Pax Caritas et lol,
-Clark

Clark, not to be rude or dis you in any way but you and thousands of others are the exact reason why this is happening. You are doing a wonderful job making music and god bless you for being able to help others and actually get paid for it too!
But $25 buck an hours is impossible to compete with from a business POV. I cannot survive and keep a family healthy on that income alone. If you weren't doing this, that would be one more spot open for a business. But, as long as we are all able to make music via simple machines, there will be no place for this as a real business anymore. Its all turning DIY.

You are young and free. The day you want to turn pro, and invest in the real stuff including a proper facility and supporting a family you will need to make more money. And you will most certainly never be able to afford to pay for it all on 25 bucks an hour. At that point you just priced yourself out of the market.
Do the math and look at the congestion. Maybe in a few years this will all change but as is, I wouldn't be telling my kids to go into this as a business.

audiokid, post: 402236 wrote: Clark, not to be rude or dis you in any way but you and thousands of others are the exact reason why this is happening. You are doing a wonderful job making music and god bless you for being able to help others and actually get paid for it too!
But $25 buck an hours is impossible to compete with from a business POV. I cannot survive and keep a family healthy on that income alone. If you weren't doing this, that would be one more spot open for a business. But, as long as we are all able to make music via simple machines, there will be no place for this as a real business anymore. Its all turning DIY.

You are young and free. The day you want to turn pro, and invest in the real stuff including a proper facility and supporting a family you will need to make more money. And you will most certainly never be able to afford to pay for it all on 25 bucks an hour. At that point you just priced yourself out of the market.
Do the math and look at the congestion. Maybe in a few years this will all change but as is, I wouldn't be telling my kids to go into this as a business.

I knew this was coming. That's why I specified that I was talking to Toni.

If I was a major label musician I would hire you to mix my album, Chris, and I would pay you a lot more than $25 an hour. But the people who hire me rarely pay off the costs of making their albums in the first year, let alone make money, so they can't afford to pay any more either. If my clients couldn't find someone to record them for cheap, they wouldn't make records. I'm not stealing your clients, I'm enabling people who otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to make a record. But John Mayer still needs someone to mix his album, and it sure as hell aint me. If you stick with it, you could be mixing for him sooner than later. I understand that you gotta do what you gotta do to make ends meet though, having a family to support.

I still give Toni the same advice. Don't expect to ever get rich in the music industry. But if you aren't afraid to start at $10 an hour and SLOWLY work your way up to a decent wage like I hope to, then go for it. But be prepared to work hard, long hours, and make sure you have a backup plan, especially if you're going to get married and have kids. In fact, I would say don't get married and have kids until you have worked your way up to making a steady living.

exactly what Chris said.

wow! 10 bucks an hour? you can make more than that at MacDonalds. 25 isn't much better when you consider all that goes into it. and for that you're going to rack up student loan debt?

in the old days when there were unions, this $10 an hour shit wouldn't happen. someones knees would be broken ... but we all got greedy and said, "who needs the union? all they do is take money from us." now look where we are ... we swallowed that line the bosses fed us and now here we sit ... screwed.

i offered a 300 dollar 4 song band demo at my studio... six hours in and out .. room was packed. that was in the 90's ... so 300 bucks ain't what it used to be.

lease was 1000 per, insurance, tech support, business tax's advertising .. it all added up ..

things were great until PCs could run 16 tracks and then the bottom dropped out ... kids with a mac or a PC in the garage charging 10 to 25 per hr ... just killed me.

live is so broad eh?

. Its all turning DIY.

I don't think that this mentality is limited to just audio or video, Chris.

The aisles at the local Loews and Home Depot's are filled with DIY'ers. I know plenty of Union carpenters and pipe fitters who are on unemployment these days, too - (although I'd concede that this is likely geographical in determining where things are booming and where they are not). The last time I was in a NAPA Auto Parts store (I think up north for you guys, your equivalent would be Canadian Tire, right?) there were more than a few guys in there getting stuff to do their own auto repairs... and not just oil changes, either. So, from what I've seen, many people are involved in DIY projects these days of all scopes and areas... home improvement, auto repair, construction, PC repair, video, audio...

We've all done quite a bit of DIY'ing on our own end too, guys... unless it's something very serious past our level of skill, we all tend to fix our own PC's, (and consoles and tape decks, too) as opposed to paying those $50 per hour bench fees with service professionals...Many of us don't run out to our local luthier's if our guitars need setting up; we adjust the intonation, tweak the trusses and even file frets or saddles ourselves... so I would counter that it's a DIY world in more areas than just our own of audio recording, and we ourselves do plenty of DIY projects that would otherwise be done by experienced professionals - who also rely on us for their income as well.

But, there will always be those things that we can't do. While I could do my own basic brake job on my car, I can't replace the transmission, nor do I have the welding equipment to do a muffler. I might be able to hang a sheet of drywall and prime and paint it, but you certainly don't want me building the structure that the drywall hangs on. And ...this is where the professionals come in.. and in your case, as Clark mentioned, this is where the scope of the client changes. I may be wrong here, Chris... but you don't really want your day filled with karaoke singers cutting tracks, do you? You're looking for "that" client who can afford what you do, and comes to you because of what you do, and, the equipment you have to do it with. Or am I wrong?

The home studios aren't taking away your clients, no more than a guy with a Dokorder 4 track and a Biamp mixer in '78 was taking away clients from Criteria or Muscle Shoals, or the guy in '85 with a Tascam Porta One was taking away clients from The Hit Factory. There will always be a lower level of DIY'er who will be, and remain, on that lower rung of the ladder. They were there in '78, they were there in '88, they were there in '98 ...and they are here now. But they aren't your clients. They never were.

The Hit Factory didn't close because of the home recording boom. They can say it was in their press release, but the people who were recording at home on PT systems couldn't have ever afforded a studio like that anyway.

In fact, I'd wager that if you really dug deep enough, you'd find that this wasn't really the reason at all. A friend of mine who lives in Manhattan and does some session work in the city told me that the closing went far beyond the blame of home studios, and in fact that this had nothing to do with it at all... according to him, the owner, Ed Germano, passed away, leaving the operations to his wife, who really didn't want to continue doing it. It was also a point of the real estate being more valuable than the business, as the property values in that area were going through the roof.

Also, the advent of Rap and Hip Hop changed the game as well... because those acts didn't rely on those rooms with beautiful acoustics or million dollar desks. They didn't need that stuff.
It's not like Rap relies on a great deal of hi fidelity or sonic integrity... at least nowhere near that which other musical styles do.
You don't really need a half million dollar Neve and a rack full of high end processing gear, when your primary tracks are a Roland 808 kick, a Linn 9000 snare, a few samples and loops flown in, and a couple of spoken vocal tracks... so yes, those acts, unless they were mega-platinum sellers, would work at mid level facilities... But Sir Elton and Sir Paul aren't going to those mid level studios. They will continue to frequent those expensive rooms because they need what those rooms and the personnel at those rooms have to offer.

Is it geographic? Probably. Are the clients with the money you need to charge abundant in your area? I don't know... only you would know that. But we both know that the closer you are located to a central location, where things are happening, gives you a greater advantage over those that are not.

IMHO of course.

-d.

au contraire' mon frere ...

i recall a time in the 70's and 80's when the studio owners in LA were having fits over the home studios that were popping up. lots of complaints how it was unfair competition because the studios had to pay yearly recurring city business taxes on their assets including improvements to the buildings for things like carpets and wood paneling ...

this has been an ongoing battle for years, dare i say decades?

Hi Donny, thanks for your encouragement but I'm generally directing my advice to people looking at this industry as a business, particularity in recording (not mixing, mastering, post/ gaming). I do think the remote and/or mobile business is a pretty good thing and is something I really enjoy but, recording and setting up a commercial studio, paying the bills etc up to a threshold ($25 an hour) and then forget it once you need more money than that. From what I'm reading over the last 10 years, there is no money in it. Virtual audio is a big contributer to larger studio demise and why I am so into virtual sound and mixing. 30 years now.
From my understanding, this generation likes to use the toys they have in their software, virtual is a big thing and only getting bigger. I'm surprised Mushroom stayed open this long.

So, without going into all that virtual stuff that no one wants to hear about around here, basically all I'm saying is, small scale recording is very appealing and something I'd love to add as a hobby per-say, but I don't think I would call it a good business to get into anymore. Pro mixing and mastering on the other hand, I think this is promising but its a one man show. We can do that anywhere and the sky is the limit.

Yes, I could be way off here but I'd be doing some serious homework before I thought about anything in this business.
You need a BIG room to impress me for drums etc, and that means a big building that costs money. Money that I doubt you will recoup in today's recording industry. So who is going to be hiring.

When someone says business, I say, can you make at least $1000 a day at it? I don't know many people in this industry that make that anymore. Maybe half if they are great. Its why all the big studios are going broke. Its a DIY game now. I would consider myself DIY. Self employed and very versatile.

To the OP: If you are wanting to work in the recording industry, study the opportunities. See if there are jobs out there first.

i was talking to my buddy the other day and he was talking about 'diamond' albums, which is 10x platinum. i was shocked to see Adele's 21 on the list! in 2012! so while there are significantly less diamond albums this decade than any other since the 60's it was refreshing to me that 10 million people actually coughed up 12 bucks for a cd. the exception, not the rule of course.

How come nobody is blaming the manufacturer's for their egregious prices on 'pro' equipment? i mean pultec just started making their eqs again. 3500 bucks for one channel! i mean come on. i'd love, love to see what the materials cost, and how much it would cost a knowledgeable tech to put one together. I mean it costs easily $40-75 per sqf for studio level construction, nevermind rent, insurance, no wonder studios are going under. i'm not suggesting that manufacturers make their high end stuff 'cheap', or compromise quality, but they are brutally unfair in there pricing. yet these gear companies are doing quite seemingly anyway, ditto for guitars, 2500 for a piece of mahogany!. when i was 19 i busted tail for a whole summer shoveling dirt, and landscaping for the $2500, bucks for my guitar amp. ditto for my guitar, and my 414. most people are unwilling to do what it takes to get the high end outboard, when a pluggin is seemingly just as good. what they forget is how important it is to get an amazing sound on the way in, which companies are making basically unaffordable, unless your rich, or willing to make massive amounts of debt. i'm personally glad to see hybrib systems coming to fruition, and i see it as a big part of the future. i think there will always be creative people who want more of a signiture or their stuff than a pluggin bundle can provide on it's own. the best of both worlds i say! (sorry to get off topic in this post)

low record budgets are killing it too. home studios are good, in theory for pre production and preparation, so when you go into the studio your on point, unfortunately this is is theory not in practice. i mean some of the most classic records from the 70's like zepplin, the stones, and steve miller, were done at homes. albeit rented mansions (except steve miller, done in a garage studio). the difference, was recording expertise, and availability of equipment.

also the buying publics taste has alot to do w/ the decline. live instrumentation is not the focus of pop right now. deeming multi room facilities unnecessary.

i agree with you all that the heyday of huge budgets, gigantic studios, and year long record making sessions, are gone and not coming back. it's a much less viable career than it was, and i wonder everyday if i will succeed. if i don't, i'll sell insurance. :)

My big question is, why are big studios that are plunging, not delivering a product that makes people want to cough up the extra 25-30 more per hour than 'joe graduates basement studio'? is it simply the wonderful electronic stuff that is making pleasant sounding drums, and strings, ect? has there just been a general decline in the quality of professionals in the pat 20 years? Is it professionals unwilling to accept that you have to be as skilled at tasteful programming as you do mic positioning? I'm also very curious to know how well the studious offering online mixing/mastering are doing, and if this is a worthwhile angle for engineers. i dunno.

There are thousands or records each year that are done at pro studios, by professional engineers that we haven't heard of, and are hired employees. thousands of professional studious are doing just fine, be it in Tennessee, new york, florida, california, even boston. these are generally not the huge grandiose heyday studious that cost 150 per hour. studios like the [="http://www.blastingroomstudios.com"]Blasting Room Studios | 1760 Laporte Ave., Ste. 2 | Fort Collins, CO 80521 | 970.416.9292[/]="http://www.blasting…"]Blasting Room Studios | 1760 Laporte Ave., Ste. 2 | Fort Collins, CO 80521 | 970.416.9292[/] in colorado, planet Z, in massachusetts, [[url=http://="http://www.londonbr…"]London Bridge Studio[/]="http://www.londonbr…"]London Bridge Studio[/], in seattle are doing okay, for a couple of examples. but they again are not $100 per hour. at the pro level, for an average regional type place i really think your pushing it at anything over $50 per hour, and even at that, good luck.

i still maintain that there is money to be made in music. is engineering music the smart way to plan for a career, and family? i don;t think anybody would say yes. but even in something as corporate as sales, i'd be much happier selling gear, than used cars. at least i'd get to talk about something i love all day. So to the OP from my experience so far, engineering can make you money, but it seems to be money 'in addition' to something else. depending on your luck, skills, and location relative to facilities, it may or may not be worth pursuing. keep in mind that many engineers have sacrificed have families, and friends, and 'lives'. that's probably as true now as it ever has been, for those lucky enough. i'm not being naive, but i say best of luck, should you choose to pursue this, just make sure you know what it is your 'really' getting into, and what your gonna do if you get left out. Seems like we are all pretty much in agreement about the state of the studio, as unfortunate as it is. i know that i have made less money studio engineering than anything else i've done, music related or not. with the exception being playing live, which pays beer, and if i'm lucky, gas money.

Kurt Foster, post: 402266 wrote: au contraire' mon frere ...

i recall a time in the 70's and 80's when the studio owners in LA were having fits over the home studios that were popping up. lots of complaints how it was unfair competition because the studios had to pay yearly recurring city business taxes on their assets including improvements to the buildings for things like carpets and wood paneling ...

this has been an ongoing battle for years, dare i say decades?

Absolutey agreed. i was in L.A. when that stuff was happening, and man, it wasn't pretty.

BUT.. I still stand by my opinion, personallly knowing some of those acts that used those lower budget studios, that had those studios not been there, they still wouldn't have been able to afford the top end places that were charging $100 per hour and up... and would have sought out a lower priced room somewhere... even if it was off the beaten path in some basement place in Torrence or somewhere similar.

And those with record deals at that time, or possible deals on spec with the various labels, were being sent to the upper level rooms. They weren't being sent to "Bob's Recording and Lube Job". LOL

;)

-d.

even in the 60's [="http://lostandsound.wordpress.com/tag/armin-steiner/"]Armin Stiener[/]="http://lostandsound…"]Armin Stiener[/] had a home studio in his Moms house where a lot of big hits were done.

Carol Kay told me once that one of the reasons Motown recorded there was to avoid union rules, tracking the backing tracks without the singers being present.

This is why so many of the early Motown hits can't be documented as to who played on what. they would take the tapes back to Detroit and overdub the vocals and and then say they recorded them at Hitsville with the singers to satisfy the Union reps. Carol swears a lot of the stuff attributed to Babitt and Jamerson was really her. Only Barry Gordy really knows who recorded on what and he ain't talkin'.

eventually Steiner was run out of business by neighbors and forced to relocate to a commercial district and pay tax's. He operated his studio until the Watts riots forced him to close.

i watched that Dave Grohl video posted here today and i heard him saying that when Nirvana recorded their first record at Sound City they had a couch that they had rented for 10 years. i bet that was to avoid the fixtures tax's. they probably rented all their furniture. btw he said Nirvanna was charged $50 bucks an hour and the place was a sh*t hole but ... they had a [[url=http://="http://www.fastcocr…"]Neve.[/]="http://www.fastcocr…"]Neve.[/]

Oh, don't get me wrong.. I'm not denying that small rooms and basement operations haven't been the source of some huge hits over the years. If you watch the "Standing In The Shadows of Motown" documentary you can see the "live room" where a multitude of hits were tracked, and it was really nothing more than a garage... and some of the early session cats said that they can remember in the beginning when parts of the floor were just dirt. If you walked into that room as an engineer today, without knowing the history, you'd probably laugh and walk right back out.

But when I was in L.A. ( I lived in El Segundo off Sepulveda in what amounted to a garage..LOL) in the glam driven 80's where giant platinum hair, spandex and Peruvian Marching Powder was king, the bands that were signed...or about to be signed, were being put into some pretty nice rooms to record their projects for the label, and most of those rooms started at $100... and went way up from there, depending on whether or not you wanted the studio manager to also hook you up with an 8 ball and a hooker... LOL. It just went on the studio bill. The labels paid it... they didn't care. These were the days when touring artists were still taking Lear Jets to gigs.

Hell, for that matter, bands like Warrant were living in West L.A. and taking Limos to The Roxy, Madame Wongs, The Troubador, etc... LOL... and they were like, I dunno, maybe 20 minutes away tops... but they HAD to have those Limos... and the label didn't care. They paid it gladly. Why?

Because what the artists didn't know was that at the end of the day, all that bling, glam, threads, coke and broads weren't being paid for by the label at all... they were being paid for by the artist. ;)

Those labels would charge ya right down to the paper clip on the contract. LOL

So they were in no way hesitant to put you in top flight rooms with the best engineers.... because when all was said and done, the band and the artists were the ones who were really picking up the tab.

LOL

fwiw
-d.

I am loving this thread, all the stories, tales, history, opinions, pearls of wisdom from all the experienced/pro guys on here (Donny, Kurt, Kmetal, audiokid, CJ and the rest). It makes great reading, honestly, please keep'em coming.

OP, two of my sons attend Newcastle College, (Btec L2 music and production i think) it is pretty good for music but the course they are taking is probably a bit beneath you.
However there are far more advanced courses which you can attend whilst on the course, mixing, production etc. They last about 6 weeks each in total and are quite intensive, and very, very informative. The lads have learned quite a bit on the extra curricular courses.
I would ring your local college and not your local University just yet, find out the courses, pick one, do the 6 weeks and decide from there if you want to follow it through at a University (as Uni fees are quite huge now).
I think the cost was about £400 for 6 x 2 hour sessions with a decent tutor ( they tend to be in the industry, DJ, producers etc. depends on what the topic is ) I don't know the exact price as the boys got it free with being under 21 and attending a local college. It wouldn't hurt to make a few phonecalls. You will meet like minded people and bounce ideas off each other.
One of my sons is a drummer, the other is a singer and have both joined bands while learning. The younger one (18) is making £240+ a week singing in a band doing the club and corporate venues. The older one (20) drummer is having a ball with his band and not earning a penny lol! (nothing changes for drummers eh?)

The upshot is try taking the cheaper route first, dip your toe in the water and see if you like it. I couldn't imagine how bad i would feel if i'd paid £3000+ for a Uni course i hated and wasted all that money.

I have never been to college BTW so you can take what i'm saying as BS if you want:biggrin: However, i've sang for over 25 years and wish i had those opportunities when i was a bit younger.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.vancouve…"]Home of Hipposonic, Mushroom Studios up for sale[/]="http://www.vancouve…"]Home of Hipposonic, Mushroom Studios up for sale[/]

You guys should have been here with me tonight. You guys think you have a hard time trying to make a decent wage. I had a fingerstyle guitarist call me up at 4 o clock and asked me if I could record a song of his with a video for youtube at 7 o clock. I told him I had nothing on so to come on down, and quoted him $75, based on an estimated 3 hours of work (it probably took closer to 5). He wouldn't go for it! The cheap bastard spent almost an hour bartering me down through text messaging, until finally I gave in and told him I would record TWO songs for $60. Hahaha I couldn't believe it. I was using probably 10 grand worth of audio and video equipment on him, and the recording just wasn't worth anything to him. People just don't value our trade, I guess.

You can watch the video here if you are interested. It's still uploading, but it will be done in about 20 minutes:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.youtube…"]Pink- Just Give Me A Reason - YouTube[/]="http://www.youtube…"]Pink- Just Give Me A Reason - YouTube[/]

Nice to see my old mics there too! Thanks for sharing that, Clark.

I had a fingerstyle guitarist call me up at 4 o clock and asked me if I could record a song of his with a video for youtube

a last minute booking, a song and a video? And he balked at $75!!???

Jeezus Tap Dancin' Christ. facepalm

Man....It's over. Truly over.

I stand totally corrected.

Chris and Kurt are absolutely right. The search for civilization continues.

don't get had man. some cat who i booked 14 gigs aligned over a summer, for, had some serious nerve. LsD lead singer disorder. i got 40 per gig running sound,(300 per gig at least) and carrying pa before / after, not bad as a qualified newb, then blurry moments started to see no payout... that guy doesn't play live much anymore, and i certianly don't engineer/rody his stuff. it wasn't about the money, he woulda paid my rate, i just chose to not work for him, i don't mind working for free if i believe in it, but swelled heads eh, i dunno.

kmetal, post: 402486 wrote: don't get had man. some cat who i booked 14 gigs aligned over a summer, for, had some serious nerve. LsD lead singer disorder. i got 40 per gig running sound,(300 per gig at least) and carrying pa before / after, not bad as a qualified newb, then blurry moments started to see no payout... that guy doesn't play live much anymore, and i certianly don't engineer/rody his stuff. it wasn't about the money, he woulda paid my rate, i just chose to not work for him, i don't mind working for free if i believe in it, but swelled heads eh, i dunno.

I'm gonna have to be real turned on by a project to do it for free.

Here's what I found in the past, in my own experience... and that is that the people who get the best deals are the ones who end up taking the most advantage of you, or will try their hardest to take the most advantage of your generosity.

At some point you just have to be able to turn those jobs down and simply say "it's not enough, it's not worth my time, and the BS factor (what I call the "BSF") is just too high".

I know it's not easy to turn down work, but sometimes you have to do just that. You have to put the ball in that client's court and "gamble" that they are not gonna find a better deal than what you determine your best rate to be. I'm not talking about jagging anybody. I'm talking about what is fair for both parties.

Now...it doesn't always work out, but then again, "working out" is a relative term, ya know?

Because at the end of the day, you have to take into account all the parameters of that gig, you have to add up all the crap and then determine whether or not you actually made any money on that gig by the time you count your hours, your transportation, your gear, your time that could have been spent with a better paying client, and most importantly... your expertise.

And, the other injury you can cause yourself is that you lock yourself into a reputation as being an "easy mark".

If you do a super-cheap job for one client, word can (and will) get around to the point where it's now expected of you...

"What do you mean this job is gonna cost me $300? You did it for my buddy Joe Blow for $75!"

Which is a reputation that will also tell reputable clients who are used to paying competitive rates that because your price is so cheap, you're probably not any good.

I'm not saying you aren't any good. I'm saying that this is the harm you can do to yourself.

And ... without fail....know that if you give "those" clients that are already getting a great deal an inch, they will always try for, and expect, the mile.

fwiw
-d.

Great points Donny. If i was looking to have a song tracked, mastered, mixed...whatever, if it was a serious project where i wanted the world to listen i promise i would not go with the cheapest guy i could find, never.
I would always go mid range to top, unless it was a good friend who was doing me a favour and i knew he was the best. I would expect and probably get a high quality production from those that charged the highest rate WITHOUT EVEN HEARING THEIR WORK! Less of a gamble as you normally get what you pay for. Plus if i pay top dollar, i wouldn't accept anything i wasn't happy with, instead of walking away with an inferior product and saying to myself 'Well, he only charged 20 bucks, what did i expect'.
As it happens the guy who hired you fell on his feet as you done a great job for him, unfortunately he will now expect the same next time. And his friends, and his family, and his pet dog if it decides to go into the music industry. (actually, i can think of a few dogs in the music industry).
I have no doubt you are talented, you should start charging for that talent appropriately.

That all sounded like a rant, but it wasn't. I don't like people (especially nice people, like yourself) being taken advantage of. How are you going to expand your gear collection at those rates.:biggrin:
This is how the average punter would think:-

I don't know correct rates as i haven't recorded for years, but these are an example.

$10 hour - "I'll be able to play it to my family, while making excuses it only cost xx much to produce"
$20 hour - " It will do for a demo, before i get it recorded properly"
$50 hour - " I can send this off to my local label to see if they like it"
$100 hour - " I will probably be able to sell this from my website as a download"
$250 hour - " Jesus H Christ, this is gonna be amazing when it's finished, ready to press on a CD"
$500 hour - " Are you JayZee, you look like him?"
$1000 hour - " No, i'm Timbaland, do you wanna hear my beats?"

Alan

Yeah, that whole experience last night taught me something about competitive pricing and negotiation. That's the last time I let somebody talk me down like that.

shoestring, post: 402505 wrote: Great points Donny. If i was looking to have a song tracked, mastered, mixed...whatever, if it was a serious project where i wanted the world to listen i promise i would not go with the cheapest guy i could find, never.

As it happens the guy who hired you fell on his feet as you done a great job for him, unfortunately he will now expect the same next time. And his friends, and his family, and his pet dog if it decides to go into the music industry.

Alan

That's one of the traps that many fall into, and in most cases they aren't even aware of the damage they've done to themselves until it's too late.

A typical scenario:

Wayne Wad plays guitar. He comes to you and says he has $75 to spend. He wants to record two songs. So, you record him for 4 hours at a total of $75. You justify it by telling yourself, "well, I didn't have anything else booked at that time anyway, so I might as well make the quick $75."

But now Wayne tells his buddy Garth about the great deal he got from you. He may even brag and say he hosed you. Garth also has a few songs, and he too wants them recorded. So he comes to you, you tell him it will cost $150, at which point he throws it up in your face that you just recorded his buddy Wayne just last week for $75... so why are you charging him $150 for the exact same service?

So you honor the rate you gave Wayne. You do the job with Garth. You're now $150 richer.... and eight hours of your life is gone for a total of $18.75 an hour. Yes, that's a great hourly wage - if you are working for someone else. But you're not. You have loans to pay on your gear, you have rent to pay at your facility. You have electric and gas bills, insurance on your place and your equipment...

And the cycle continues.... because now Garth's buddy, Axyl, also hears about the great deals you're handing out. Axyl shows up and expects the same rate that you gave Wayne and Garth. So now you have a decision to make... you either perpetuate the cycle you've put yourself in by also recording Axyl for $75 ...

Or, you stop the ship from sinking further.

You have to weigh out whether that $150 you got from Wayne and Garth is worth the long term effects of dealing with these low budget guys - and the crap that goes with it - as well as potentially losing higher dollar clients who, after hearing on the street about your rate of $75 for four hours, chuckle to themselves and immediately move on past you, because they are pros and they know that no one worth their salt would ever charge that ridiculously low rate.

They have recorded professionally before and understand that you get what you pay for. It doesn't matter whether you have an SSL or a Biamp 8 channel mixer. They don't even consider you because of your basement rates.... so they move on to ...wait for it..... ME.

Now, I may have lost $150 because Wayne and Garth went to you, but now I am booking ONE session for $500 with the serious guy who passed you by, because of your stupidly low rate and reputation for doing those cheap jobs with hack clients. And the serious guy also has serious friends, who also have serious friends....

Was it worth it? Maybe. Only you can decide that.

Enjoy your $150. Oh... and tell Wayne and Garth I said hello. ;)

It's never a good idea to compete on the basis of price (if you can avoid it). Try to compete on the basis of your brand. Build a reputation for great quality, great service, etc., and most people will willingly pay your higher rates, within reason. It can be tough to do that when you're just starting out in your business (any business), but that's still the goal. Unless you want to turn your business into the Discount Recording Warehouse. Donny's scenario illustrates this point very well.

d you always very realistic in your posts. if i'm ever crossing by your state man, i'll buy ya a beer, or at least bring my guitar. my boss put it well a year or two ago when we were discussing rates, and promos. he basically said people value things more if they pay for them. in other words they will respect your work more if you charge a fair rate. it just seems to be true.

Give and inch they'll try a mile, man that couldn't be more true man. we've been doing this promotion 'try triad', where a band comes in tracks live for an hour gets a mix, NSA (no strings attached). this one kid came back w/ a different group, then called and asked for a re-mix, damn skippy i ain't doing it for free.

i think what i meant was more spec, than working for nada if i believed. I honestly have just been having a hard time assessing what my value is as an engineer. that's been the hardest part for me, taking it from hobby, to carreer. i got hooked up w/ some successful people, but they still smoke me, rightfully so. Mixing is one thing where i hear the difference, which means i take longer, and get worse results. not terrible, but it's a game of inches, especially since these are modest pro studios, we ain't taking work away from abbey road ya know?

It has helped me w/ tracking rates to work at someone elses place, where the 55/hr is an established rate, and i get 15 of that/hr. good money for me, and open access to studio to practice, mess around. but mixing, i always need more time these days, than i feel i should charge a client. i've developed a flat rate thing that ranges from 75-125 per song, and that seems to be a decent compromise between my time and my skill. it's been okay'd w/ tony (the boss). i just question how much artists regard mixing, and in some cases i've over-mixed and the roughs were better. And as you all well know it the best musicians who usually need the least amount of time. my AHA moment was when a professional level cover band came in, and banged out 8 tunes live in three hours, w/ minimal vocal overdubs. an hour or so of tweaking, boom, demo had for a little over 200 bucks. they booked weddings off that, lol, for 3-5k. maybe my hours or so of mixing is worth something :) but it's always the people who are terrible, who have no money, and no talent, and expect professional knob turners to make em great.. this is why i agree w/ audiokid about his approaches.

I find the people most willing to spend what it's worth to 'make and album', or even bother to pay an engineer live, to be of a certain personality type(s). either and extremely anal jerk (insert insult word here), or relaxed person who doesn't wanna deal w/ anything but playing. this is a fascinating niche world.

It's such a weird compromise tho, how else do you get people in an unknown studio, w/ an unknown engineer? the free hour thing seems okay, and i'm down, it's gotten word of mouth from one band that is eventually (<--- keyword) gonna bring a budget, and has the anal mentality, and showed some cash. after all some of my most famous gigs i did (ghostface from wu-tang, jadakiss, jim ones, bizmarke) have just been me running boards live, as a tech/bartender. i think i got like 25 bucks extra for one of them lol. what am i gonna say? no. the opportunity to control a 30k system w/ rappers i listened to on the way to high school, i couldn't refuse.

i'll tell ya, ta close this vamp, i've had way more use of my services, in the live sound, sound system problem solver, project studio design/construction build, than my studio skills. i don't think it's cuz i'm awful at studio stuff, most people who record w./ me don't go anywhere else after, but i think it's availability of the work. even then, maybe it's cuz i did a 5k re-wire for one k? maybe it's cuz i'm 75 a night for this current live band i'm working w/ vs the 100 from the guy? bar bands hardly ever hire engineers, maybe i'm getting the gig, cuz i'm making 5 less than the singer, not 20 more? a strange strange thing this all is.

ugh sorry to make this post 'about me', it's meant in general. don't wanna be that cat who thinks world revolves around own tail. to end this rant, i'll say if you offer a better service for the same money, or a bit more, than everyone else, you'll get the gigs. value can be simple as listening to why someone is mad that day. how to instill value, and build a reputation, is mystifying to me...

ugh,... i have to do it,... party on wayne.!!!

DonnyThompson, post: 402483 wrote: a last minute booking, a song and a video? And he balked at $75!!???

Jeezus Tap Dancin' Christ. facepalm

Man....It's over. Truly over.

I stand totally corrected.

Chris and Kurt are absolutely right. The search for civilization continues.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that he wanted the video posted by midnight. ;P

ClarkJaman, post: 402805 wrote: Oh, and I forgot to mention that he wanted the video posted by midnight. ;P

Anything else? Maybe a limo? A caterer? Some milk and cookies?

There's a great line from the movie Arthur...that I find totally apropos to your situation.

Hobson (Sir John Geilgud) is Arthur's (Dudley Moore's) butler, and Arthur asks Hobson to run a bath for him, along with other stuff, at which point Sir John responds with:

"Fine. Perhaps you would also like me to come in there and wash your **** for you ...you little **** ..." LOL :tongue: