Before you spend $1000.
Technique, technique, or technique.

If you are not easily offended you might want to read this http://www.scribd.com/doc/2067256/Slippermans-Guide

Multiple mic tracking is my preferred method, mic placement is GOD, but amp settings are very important esp. distortion levels, tone and volume because for recording it is best to tweak a sound that works for the studio that is not necessarily what you might use live.

I'm perfectly happy with my amps sound and i do double both the mic and guitar tracks in my recordings... its just the recorded quality of the amp doesn't seem the same to me as it is when i'm playing it live. I think i need a new mic or interface but i'm not sure which would help the quality more...

Did you read the article?

Let me get this straight you like your amp sound but not the recording? You don't think that the mic is recording what it is "hearing" but something else?

I don't know anything about MXL mics buy a SM57 ($99.00)and if that doesn't solve the problem, guess what? It is your technique.

jg49 wrote: ...I don't know anything about MXL mics buy a SM57 ($99.00)and if that doesn't solve the problem, guess what? It is your technique.

Dynamic mics are a more standard choice for close micing a guitar amp. I don't expect this to completely solve the problem, but it seems like a logical first step. The 57 is a very "standard" mic and a lot of the advice you will get will be based on using it.

jg49 wrote: Before you spend $1000.
Technique, technique, or technique.

If you are not easily offended you might want to read this http://www.scribd.com/doc/2067256/Slippermans-Guide

Multiple mic tracking is my preferred method, mic placement is GOD, but amp settings are very important esp. distortion levels, tone and volume because for recording it is best to tweak a sound that works for the studio that is not necessarily what you might use live.

i love the condescending tone toward the artist/musician, you know the people who actually keep recording engineers in business.

i think the bitterness stems from the fact some engineers are just wannabe musicians who lack any musical talent, and could never be in a band themselves.

i mean really, who made who? if there wasnt anything to record, what would this putz be doing?

back on topic, good technical information. just a piss poor delivery and indicative of the small penis/no talent rage a lot of engineers suffer.
at least einstein with the canoe paddle probably gets laid regularly.

you do have a line6 spider, don't you? have you tried to record the direct out? it is a modelling amp with speaker simulation. maybe that's the sound you're looking for.

Geez dave_p you sure got me pegged, including my penis size. Maybe my delivery was poor it was 4:54 am and I hadn't had coffee yet, that is something I will think about.

You know nothing about me so let me clue you in. I have been playing guitar for over thirty years and I am definitely a better musician than a recording engineer. I've been in so many bands I've lost count. I spent three and half hours just two days ago in someone else's pro studio as a paid session man putting rhythm tracks on someone elses original music.

The things I said about amp settings came from working in other studios and it came from enraged engineers.

Maybe I too can get laid one day, here's to hoping.

I think he's referring to Slipperman.

yeah i've tried direct recording and it doesn't sound too good, it sounds way better with the mic for some reason... and yes i do think the mic is taking away something from the sound of what i hear from the amp... i was wondering if maybe this mic wasn't meant to record amps and only acoustic because it sounds good on the clean channel, and i also thought maybe the m-audio mobile pre isnt very high quality because it was only like $150...

InstruMETAL wrote: and i also thought maybe the m-audio mobile pre isnt very high quality because it was only like $150...

i don't think it's the interface. it wouldn't make such a big difference. more likely it's the mic or/and placement.

To tell you the truth, after visiting this site for a few weeks, I started to double track my guitars. Instead of just doing double takes I would mic my amp and also take a DI at the same time. You will need to do a little work to get the DI to sound good, but the two tones will mesh together nicely and sound fatter than if you didn't.

EDIT: I too have the same problem of the clean channel sounding good and the distortion sounds shit. Try double tracking^ It helped me. Also how do you mic your cab? Could we get an audio sample of how it sounds? Then maybe we could help you better.

Even a fairly cheap pre should do an OK job on distorted electric guitar. The distortion compresses the sound to nice little blocks that are pretty easy for a pre to handle. (Hardest things are sharp transients like drums and subtle shades of vocal (which the human ear is particularly attuned to).) A good pre may be an improvement, but it won't fix a bad sounding electric guitar.

A lot of high frequency energy in distorted guitar and an inexpensive LDC used close to the speaker is my chief suspect. (Though I have not used the MXL, so this is just a guess.) Again, an SM57 just seems an obvious thing to try. If you can borrow one, good. But it's about as low risk a purchase as I can think of.

The slipperman article (or rant if you prefer) contains a lot of good information about recording distorted guitars while at the same time being a rambling spew. The concepts are important however. There is also a great Sound on Sound (recording magazine) article which I can't seem to find a link to that goes into great depth re: mic placements, (center speaker, edge, off axis, distance) and has sound clips for each.

Your interface should give you very good results and is the last thing I would look at as Bob Rodgers and Ouzo77 both said.

Getting the right "sound" in recording is a number of intensely variable things, mic placement being incredibly high on the list. The thing that most guitarists don't understand is that amp settings that sound good in a room are affected by the room itself, bone cavitation (which is how we hear things thru our bodies esp. at high volumes) and the fact that we don't actually have our ears right in front of the speaker like the mic. So it is important to adjust the tonality to work with the recording medium.

So how do you do that? Experimentation. I have found that the old adage "less is more" is especially true in the studio re: settings. I don't know if you are talking about a little "crunch" blues overdrive or death metal dist.

Half to 2/3 of the drive I use on stage seems to work best, I use no reverb when recording as I think it is best to add it afterwards, same for delays. Tone set more towards flat than boosted to get my tone. One thing you said that keeps me pushing this idea is that you are not satisfied with your amp out direct sound. The best recordings IMO are made mic'ing speakers but you should be able to get a pretty good sound with the line six w/o as it is a modeling amp.

I know a number of truly great guitarists that use practice amps for recording in part because they can drive them w/o high volume and small speaker size seems to help. These same guys would never gig like this.

Edit: This is the S.O.S. article http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug07/articles/guitaramprecording.htm

There are two truths to keep in mind when making a recording...."Mic dont lie" and "Shit in=Shit out".

For a moment there I thought davep was going all JP22 on us....

But for those who are carrying around their own chip, this would be the logical reaction to someone really trying to ferret out the problem in order to help.

By your nik I'm assuming your doing Metal of some sort. Probably highly saturated and distorted from the get go and you're looking for that 'clarity' in the distortion that you're getting in those 'clean' sections when everything calms down for a moment before the storm....

How am I doing?

Mr jg49 has been hitting it square with you from the beginning as have all the other posters.

This is all about the source.

This where you're lacking.

Oh sure, it sounds good to your 'ear' in the room at the volume youre working at....but the ear is a funny thing. Especially about overly saturated,compressed sounds. It tends to eliminate ,without any thought, some of the seriously complex overtones that eminate from such a source in order to process it in a pleasant way.

The mic has no such filter. Maybe not the best mic in the world....maybe not the best interface....etc...

Doesnt matter. Mic dont lie. Its what it is hearing with a few odd anomolies of its own, but certainly not enough to completely screw-up the sound youre hearing.

You can throw money at it till you're blue in the face....and broke....but if the source isnt attended too and looked at from the standpoint of a recording source, which has all these 'other' anomolies associated with this, then you're gonna find a better sounding sack-o-crap.....but still have a sack-o-crap. Shit in=Shit out.

So not to get you to thinking that the awful recording engineer is trying to alter your vision of your art, I'll just say theres physics involved and capturing your art in a positive light is a little more detailed than simply throwing up a mic and away we go. And THIS is my art.

ESPECIALLY for a complex signal like DISTORTED GUITAR.

Take the advice already given.

Back that heater off a whole lot. Turn it down. Open up the mic pre a bit more. TURN IT DOWN.

Incredibly heavy, thick, richly doused in harmonic layers of sound can be achieved with a Champ amp and a single mic.

But you have to think like a mic.

Great post Davedog. Being a guitar player first (before the recording bug bit me) I always seem to spend more time on guitar tone than any other instrument. I find it the most difficult to get right, or at least to match what is in my head.

All I can say is take your time and listen closely.
For close micing:
Move the mic is small steps.
Use the mic like a microscope and map out your speaker.
Once you the know each speakers response, put the mic where you think it will sound the best for the mix.

When you add in room mics or distant mics:
Again use the mic like a microscope,
Record the changes in sound relative to the distance you move the mic.
Make measured moves for the mic .

It takes time and great attention to detail, but at least it is methodically and repeatable.
There is no shortcut that can do that for you.

Let me start by saying that I haven't really recorded a lot of heavily distorted metal guitar, so what I'm going to say is speculative. But I [[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"]keep hearing [/]="http://recording.or…"]keep hearing [/]different versions of this complaint about the disconnect between what people experience when hearing their amp live and what they hear when it is recorded. My guess is that a big source of the problem is that unlike most other sound sources, we don't just "hear" a loud, distorted guitar directly from the amp. We feel the vibrations in many other parts of our body than just our inner ears. As Dave says, the mic doesn't lie. That's basically what your amp sounds like. It's just not the same experience as feeling the amp directly. The basic problem is that the best sound and the best feel doesn't necessarily come at the same place. So - as several people have suggested - rethink how to make your amp sound its best to a microphone 2" from the speaker. Go back to your current settings when you play live.

Side Note: Fortunately for me, this isn't a problem for those of us who play little 15 watt amplifiers whose idea of distortion is driving the preamp to 7 and pulling back the master volume back to 2. The sound really is in our ears, not the feel of the wind fluttering our pants. (Been there, done that, got the tinnitus.)

BobRogers wrote: I think he's referring to Slipperman.

yes, thats who i was referring to

and while the advice was certainly correct, and the technical information priceless, i still stand by my assertion that the delivery sucked.

and some of the best (recorded)distorted guitar tone i have ever heard came from a little mesa studio 22. those things are worth their weight in gold.

jg49 wrote: Geez dave_p you sure got me pegged, including my penis size. Maybe my delivery was poor it was 4:54 am and I hadn't had coffee yet, that is something I will think about.

You know nothing about me so let me clue you in. I have been playing guitar for over thirty years and I am definitely a better musician than a recording engineer. I've been in so many bands I've lost count. I spent three and half hours just two days ago in someone else's pro studio as a paid session man putting rhythm tracks on someone elses original music.

The things I said about amp settings came from working in other studios and it came from enraged engineers.

Maybe I too can get laid one day, here's to hoping.

i wasnt referring to you

btw, i live in CT too. i have been sucking at bass for 20 years or so, done some stints in some crappy bar bands, and have NEVER been recorded in a pro studio. i have worked in one. maybe we will bump into each other one day.

where in CT are you guys? I am from WH near Savin Rock.

Hmm, i've experimented quite a bit with placement but after reading those articles, maybe i should try more it seems to be very complicated to get what you want.

Well dave_p you should have made it more clear that you were referring to the author of the article I had referenced because you qouted my entire post then said what you did without any other reference. I did warn people that it might be offensive (in a lot of ways.)

I live in Simsbury, CT.

Instrumetal: I don't think it is that complicated to get "your" sound, I think it does take a good deal of experimenting. I did not realize from your first post that the mic you were using was a condenser though I do use a condenser as one of three mics in getting my sound. I also use a 57 a little off center of the cone about 4-5" inches off, on axis and I use a small dynamic drum mic on the outside edge of the speaker cone at the same distance. The condenser is a little bit further away with the pad engaged and bass roll-off on placed in front of the second speaker. I blend these three differently depending on exactly what tone I am looking for. I realize you only have two inputs so dual micing is the way to go. Play the same few passages (short lead,& short rhythm, etc.) move the mics repeat. Do the same with settings take good notes and listen, listen, listen to the playbacks. Let it sit for a day or two, enlist the opinions of some other guitarists, put it on cd and listen to it in the car. You will eventually find it once you do it should work again and again.

If it was easy to get what you wanted in this business there'd be no need for any recording studios and engineers.

We'd all look like geniuses.

Davedog wrote: If it was easy to get what you wanted in this business there'd be no need for any recording studios and engineers.

We'd all look like geniuses.

On a sidenote, isn't the industry on a slippery slope because modern day DAWs and stuff are getting really cheap and bastards like me can make cds in their basement?

Thankfully for recording studios, most of the basement stuff is still crap.

Davedog wrote: "Mic dont lie"

but they don't always tell the whole truth, and sometimes they embellish...

thx for all the advice everyone, i think i'm just gunna experiement with mic and amp placement in my room and maybe buy another mic like a sm57 and blend them together, i think that guy who mentioned that when you play with your amp you not only hear with your ears you actually feel it too, i thought that was a good point... maybe i'm just used to that since i'm new to hearing my amp recorded.

Codemonkey wrote: Thankfully for recording studios, most of the basement stuff is still crap.

Agreed...

I use my bedroom studio purely for song writing purposes. I then take those tracks over to someone with more experience and equipment than I...this is almost always for the best!

:)

Well, at least you've got the right idea.

You should have the tools around you to make music, and then the skill to take that music to a place that can record it.

Have any of you ever used an AKG D3600? I love them on electric guitars. They only made them for a few years, so not everyone is familiar with them. They were an odd looking like spud, but they sounded very true on a guitar amp. They were a dynamic cardioid that had two diaphragms - which somehow eliminated proximity effect. So whatever the amp sounded like to your ear, that's what it sounded like on tape. If you had a good sounding guitar rig you were golden.

The old D190e was also very good on guitar amps, very much like a SM57 with extended high end.