Anyone had experiences with these beasts? Anyone able to compare and contrast? I am sick of computer recording and want something else that is hard disk based (I like the copy/paste and undo functions, it's true). Any ideas? Doc
Comments
I have used all three. I did a session at a very large, very we
I have used all three. I did a session at a very large, very well known university, and they had done projects throughout the year on various loaner units. My job was to get them sync'd to video and dumped into a DAW.
The Mackie has some issues still. They had gone online to learn how to make there own drive/carrier's instead of buying Mackies. That was a mistake. In the long run, it is better to buy the Mackie. The Mackie's internal clock is less than stable. It reads video sync ok. I had various clicks and pops in the audio when it generated TC. There are software issues with this unit. Go to the user's conference to see the fixes. It sounds good for the money.
The Tascam is pretty much bug free now. They have the editing software down now. You need a computer for this one though. You don't need a computer with the Mackie. The sound of the Tascam is very good for the money. I have never had one lock up or have boot-up problems.
I have not used the Fostex in a long time, and it was not side by side with the competition.
I would go with the iZ Radar Project D. The Radar is the way to go. You can use iSCSI drives which are faster than ATA drives, have greater throughput than an ATA, and are less expensive than a SCSI drive. The Radar has such a nice buffer system that even ATA drives work fine in mixing and in tracking. It sounds great, and BeOS is much more stable than Windows, DOS or any other OS that the competition uses.
I would rent one first and check it out.
sheet, What software issues did the Mackie have? I've got a
sheet,
What software issues did the Mackie have? I've got a HDR and would like to know what to look out for.
For what it's worth, I use a Lucid GenX-6 to clock my stuff and I haven't had any clock issues.
The only problem I've ever had is that sometimes when I boot up the HDR, it gets half way through the boot process and starts over and you have to power down and start over to get it booted up. However, once it boots all the way up, it has never ever crashed on me.
Thanks!
The Alesis is the easiest of the bunch.With external clock it so
The Alesis is the easiest of the bunch.With external clock it sounds better but jitter on this machine is a minumum anyway.The IDE drives are available evrywhere and are cheap.The OS is the same as ADAT and we all know how long thats been around. Any problems there have been ironed out long ago.The new $199 firewire outdrive for the Alesis makes it possible to sys dump all your tracks into most any DAW system for edit or tweeking and theres no need for any othe converters.So for around 2grand its a very economical and stable platform to record to.I have had no problems this year with mine and I havent even upgraded to the newest OS.The newest models operate at 24/96 and i'm pretty sure that this is 24 tracks at that rate.Mine will record at 24/96 but only 12 tracks...still, for the money its really the best..AND YES, when I bought I had the opportunity to shop and compare.Price was not the issue. Functionality was.Mackies over hyped and under engineered HDR's turned me off.Why would I want a propriatary OS that doesnt acurately 'talk' to anything else except a D8B, and uses ungodly expensive propriatary drives.The Tascam was what I almost bought and if the dealers in town would have known more I would have bought it.Sice I didnt, I had more money for the console.Which in the end turned out to be the best choice of all.
That said, If I had the money to upgrade right now it would be the RADAR system.And the DAW to edit would be all the Hammerfall cards...ymmv
Originally posted by FloodStage: sheet, What software issue
Originally posted by FloodStage:
sheet,What software issues did the Mackie have? I've got a HDR and would like to know what to look out for.
Thanks!
I don't recall. It was the version prior to the current release of 12/02. The problem with updating was that there was a missed update along the way. The word from Mackie is that you have to install ALL updates, prior to installing the new Mackie OS. If you didn't, you had to send your drive back to Mackie, or some stupid crap like that.
When I walked into this format hell, I tried to make it work in the same fashion that it was working when they recorded with it. We actually had a great studio clock system.
I seem to recall that it would not simultaneously pass signal from digital in to digital out while in record mode too. That was an odd feature. Is yours like that?
While it is true that there are no 'virtual tracks' with the Ale
While it is true that there are no 'virtual tracks' with the Alesis and the undo only works in edit, folks like myself who came from analog only, dont find this to be a particularly hard problem.After all, the best performance is the one to keep and theres 24 tracks to perform on....if thats not enough, for the money it will cost for a Mackie HDR, you could have 48 tracks of Alesis and enough left over to buy a nice mic.
I use the Mackie as my mobile recording unit. It is very easy t
I use the Mackie as my mobile recording unit. It is very easy to port tracks to my DAW. USB connection and move the files. That simple!
I also prefer the non-linear use of disk space. I also like the non-destructive recording and the virtual tracks. All of which can be copied into you DAW with no hassle.
This was the deciding factor for me. . .
Originally posted by Doc@BeefyTreats.com: Anyone had experienc
Originally posted by Doc@BeefyTreats.com:
Anyone had experiences with these beasts? Anyone able to compare and contrast? I am sick of computer recording and want something else that is hard disk based (I like the copy/paste and undo functions, it's true). Any ideas? Doc
I have had the Fostex D1624 and now the D2424LV. I find them to be great sounding "tape" substitutes. I mean the controls are like the old analog machines. The controls are straight forward and the sound is really amazing. I have much time on it with no problems. I , too, gave up on computer recording. I have all of the software (cakewalk, Pro-tools etc.etc.) and found out that there is always a stumbling block somewhere. I like mixing the old fashion way. I like recording the old fashion way. The D2424LV is really a good sounding and quiet machine.
quote: --------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Doc@BeefyTreats.com:
Anyone had experiences with these beasts? Anyone able to compare and contrast? I am sick of computer recording and want something else that is hard disk based (I like the copy/paste and undo functions, it's true). Any ideas? Doc
OK doc....... i've owned the alesis adat.... loved it - but it has it's limitations.. one of which is that it's linear (as has been noted by others) and also that the tape itself develops tensioning problems and degradation of the media with time.
The Mackie MDR 24/96 is what i am working with now. There are some problems with the time clock..... although the occurances are far and few in between.... and the few times that i have had problems (one was a time shift of a section of track that i had copied because the musician's playing volume wasn't consistent - which completly dissapeared from the time hack - only to reappear about 2/3 of the way through the recording) - BUT (the big but) i have always found success with the UNDO command. Thus i have never had a problem which was unrecoverable.
When i do have this occurance i simply close the song i am working on and reboot - not a killer - and then she works fine for months on end..... my problems have only been maybe 4 or 5 times since i purchased the gear - and i have had it for almost 2 years.
I suppose the big question is - would i purchase another mackie - and the answer is yes - although my next purchase will be a HDR 24/96 - which i will be able to slave the one i have now to - and which utilizes a computer key board, monitor and mouse to allow software editing without the need for a seperate computer system.
All of that having been said - i personally now would never return to tape for initial recording.
I might consider mixing down and going to analog if i wanted some of the warmth (personally i don't see this as an issue at this time) but i get everthing in the world i want with disk.
I love the ability to have a take absolutely perfect except for a single bass note - and slicing 5 or 10/1000 of a second out so i don't have to re-dub. Or pushing something forward the same for perfect sync.
I would not do this much work for a track that was botched - but damn it's nice for that occassional slip.
All of that having been said - i have never worked with the other digital recorders - and (as i have mentioned more than a few times on this site) i am not a professional sound engineer - but i would have to believe that any of those recorders would be in the same class or better. It just so happened that at the moment where my particular illness (the driving desire to buy more gear) struck me on that particular day - i was standing next to a mackie deck.
Happy hunting
Rod
Ooooppppppppsss...... 3 comments more - i should have read ALL
Ooooppppppppsss...... 3 comments more - i should have read ALL of the comments above 1st - my bad
1. i have never worked with the alesis HD system - only the ADAT
2. The mackie does not require proprietory hard drives - will work with any manufacturers drives that meet the spec - (which is governed by the drive speed and size) - although it will use any drive of any speed and size which (if it verifies that it is not correct for continous operation for recording purposes) it will then use only for backup.
3. the system is Windows and Apple compatible for connection to a computer network if desired.
Once again - my wishes are only that you end up with the gear that works best for you - i own no stock in mackie and therefor have no vested interest in your purchasing their equipment.
Happy hunting
Rod
Sheet, I understand what you're saying - but the price diff
Sheet,
I understand what you're saying - but the price difference between a mackie vrs the Project D is about $1,700 (US) - so it's sort of like comparing a Chevy and a Mercedes.
However - I have visited the manufacturers site - and am considering this purchase... it would be nice to buy a new "toy"
SO thanks for the heads up.......
Tis what i love about this place, an absolute treasure chest of information.
Happy Hunting
Rod
Originally posted by StuartMac: Rod, honestly - go with the Ra
Originally posted by StuartMac:
Rod, honestly - go with the Radar. Stretch out and buy the Session Controller as well. Well wort it in every way.
Stuart - I am in the process of doing exactly that - wasn't aware of the Session COntroller - but will look at that as well.........
Damn - this is one expensive hobby - but what the heck - you can't take it with you - and the kids will only squander it after your gone - so you may as well enjoy it while you're here.
"He who dies with the most toys wins"
Happy hunting
Rod
I've been following this with GREAT interest, as recording to DA
I've been following this with GREAT interest, as recording to DAW seems to have some limitations...and I would like to have both DAW and disk recorder my own self...of the 3 systems in the original question, I've taken notice of the Fostex, simply because of its features, but for some reason there is a distinct absence of replies about that machine...so maybe I can offer a question or two to help the original post:
- How compatible is the Fostex in file sharing (recording to it, dumping files to PC for editing, dumping back for mixing)
- Media issues?
- Broadcast wave extension? WC/Sync capacity?
- External converter upgrade and option?
- Whatever your purchase was, would you make the same choice based on your experiences?
(Someone please invent a dedicated recorder with NO editing for those of us using a killer DAW, extensive save/backup options, removable media, and GREAT converters...thus far there is nothing out there simultaneously meeting these 3 requirements
The Radar Project D is about as close to a digital version of an
The Radar Project D is about as close to a digital version of an analog machine as you are going to get. If you grew up with an Otari, Tascam, Sony, etc tape machine remote, then the Session Controller will feel great and make sense to you.
The Tascam MX2424 has a great remote that is no different in concept than any of their DA series remotes.
Re: the price difference. There can't be a small difference between these units, because you are getting exactly what you pay for.
When iZ developed the Radar, they sold it on their own, then signed an exclusive distribution deal with Otari, who marked the machine up 50%. When you consider that what you are buying now in a Project D is a hyper improved version of the original (which sold for $20k!), it puts things into perspective. Then consider that this replaces in the world of analog machines.
You can't come it to a Mackie for the following reasons:
1. The Mackie is a Pentium computer (worth about $50).
2. The Mackie HDR uses the same digital I/O cards that were designed for D8B over 10 years ago. There are better (jitter/noise) converters out now that cost less.
3. The Radar uses BeOS, which is much more stable for audio.
4. The Radar has more drive flexability. With it's buffer design, you can actually track and playback large track counts without waiting on the drives limited throughput.
5. Sonics. There is no comparison.
6. Upgradeability. Mackie did not build their machines on their own. They didn't know how. Greg is an analog guy. They got Sydec, the company that made Soundscape DAW's to help. The SDR-24 was a complete Sydec machine with a Mackie nameplate. Mackie is no longer doing the embedded recorder stuff. Who knows what will happen to the HDR's future and support. Think about it. Why would they continue to build and provide support for something that is so low-profit for them, and that can be built by you for about $1,500? The Radar is iZ's bread and butter. It has always improved, and is here to stay in some form or fashion.
Originally posted by Davedog: While it is true that there are
Originally posted by Davedog:
While it is true that there are no 'virtual tracks' with the Alesis and the undo only works in edit, folks like myself who came from analog only, dont find this to be a particularly hard problem.After all, the best performance is the one to keep and theres 24 tracks to perform on....if thats not enough, for the money it will cost for a Mackie HDR, you could have 48 tracks of Alesis and enough left over to buy a nice mic.
Or you could buy a Mackie SDR for less than what the Alesis HDR costs. Apples vs apples.
We used to sit around and say "If I only had an 8 track", or "If
We used to sit around and say "If I only had an 8 track", or "If I only had a Les Paul then we could ...."
The conversation would escalate and finally one of my friends would say: "Why don't we convince god to build us a studio on a lake" and that would end the wishing well conversation.
Well, why don't we all get two 2" 16 tracks and a Neve in a 16000 sq ft acoustically tuned room and skip the middle ground?
Cash man!
This thread is about Mackie vs Tascam vs Fostex not RADAR. It's not that I have a problem with RADAR but I simply cannot afford one so whether they sound good is as important to me as the cost of a 2003 Ferrari.
By the way, the RADAR Project D doesn't have converters so without dropping some more cash on top of the 5 grand for the RADAR, it probably doesn't sound too good at all unless you like the sounds of silence!
Not to be argumentative cause thats not what we do here, but Doc
Not to be argumentative cause thats not what we do here, but Doc's original post never specified a budget but simply a desire to get feedback on digtally based harddrive recorders.He did specify three of the major players in this case and has gotten feedback from knowledgeable users on these and a couple of others. Since he(Doc) runs a recording business I think its a fair take to suggest the 'Best' without fear of reprisal.Now you or me maybe cant afford the Radar but he might look into it and see what a wonderful system it is and go for it.I'd personally LOVE to have one myself.
And though I dont need to speak for him, Kurt's comment about Mackie is based on his own experiences some of which anybody whos dealt with them would likely share.Dont get me wrong, there are some very good products coming out of the Mackie factory and I've owned some of Greg's products myself.Lets see, there was the Tapco mixer,Tapco reverb(wish I still had it)....uhhh anyway....I dont think he meant to offend any Mackie owners or possible future owners...but then again, he does have one sitting on the desk and he might be tired of it......so.......
Let's take the sales approach here and answer the following?
Let's take the sales approach here and answer the following?
Do you plan on doing a lot of editing? Look for the best editor
Are you planning to swap disks with a collaborative? Cheap storage and caddies are important
Are storage and multiple backups important?
Cheap storage and a good utility is important
Are you doing projects that will run into storage problems?
Large disk capacity is important
Will you be connecting to a DAW?
Then integrated editing or file swapping is important
What are you mixing with analog or digital?
If you are going digital light pipe is already 0's and 1's you by pass the deck's converters. Sonics are mute in this case.
Are you planning to buy converters in the future?
If so Sonics are a mute point some time in the near future
Now rate these in order of importance. Go to their websites and get their manuals and see which one makes the most sense for you?
My guess is the in a side by side taste comparison no one's gonna know the fricken difference at least at this level. You will get good reslults with each. Better if it fits with what you are doing.
I went through this and I got so anal it was rediculus. I was reading specs on the friggen converters. I went with the one that had the best human features for what I was setting out to do. . . Best of luck!
why not the alesis? I've had no problems with it and its totally
why not the alesis? I've had no problems with it and its totally stable and sounds good as long as you have an external clock. i have the lucid wordclock and i often track to the alesis, and transfer to the computer to mix with nuendo
Marshall