They both are way too different to directly compare. The mackie is a full mixer with an interface. The 828MKII is an interface with a small mixer. The 828MKII has SMPTE, WC, S/PDIF and both ADAT optical I/O as well as ADAT sync which makes it more useable in the real world of interfacing gear in the digital realm. The 828MKII or rather two of them is an option I am considering myself.

AudioGaff wrote: They both are way too different to directly compare. The mackie is a full mixer with an interface. The 828MKII is an interface with a small mixer. The 828MKII has SMPTE, WC, S/PDIF and both ADAT optical I/O as well as ADAT sync which makes it more useable in the real world of interfacing gear in the digital realm. The 828MKII or rather two of them is an option I am considering myself.

so basically what you are saying is that the 828mkII is more reliable than the mackie... is it? and of course it has more tools to work with!

the 828mkii only has 2 preamps on board- it has 8 more analog inputs but you will need preamps with them- also you can send 8 more inputs via adat lilghthpipe- but you will need preamp as well. Then there are 2 inputs via spidif. I use these with a rosetta AD and you will need 2 more preamps as well.

On the mackie side you might possibly need a computer interface (am not sure on this) if so, you will neeed the 828 for the interface plus the mackie for the pres-

MOTU products come with a feature called "Audiodesk" which is a way to monitor inputs without latency. Unless things have changed since I was shopping for interfaces, Audiodesk only works on Macs so the MOTU package is better or worse depending on which computer plactform you use, Mac or PC. ... I use PC and that was the main reason I steered away from MOTU stuff. Why pay for a software feature you can't use? And what do you do to replace the needed function?

I have also read reader responses that MOTU products have pretty "iffy" converters. Lot of folks talking about upgrading the converters in their MOTUs .. I am not a big "gotta have good converters or it's gonna suck" kind of guy, I only mention it so you have a heads up. I would be interested to hear Gaffs impression of the MOTU stuff after he' s had one for a while.

Mackie pres do not rock ... they are fine but I would hardly say they rock. No one here has heard the ONYX pres yet (that I know of) so it's hard to make a judgment call on them ... at this point, from Mackie I would have to say "show me" before I become convinced the ONYX pres are leap ahead in quality.

At the point you're at inLoco, I think you should be making your choices based on the feature set and not considering the audio quality. I doubt there will be much difference between the Mackie and the MOTU in terms of audio or conversion quality, so it all comes down to the bells and whistles and functionality of the hardware in your application. Only you know best which is going to suit your needs.

damn it... yeah i think that you are right kurt...

but another question that i'm a bit confused...
how does the latency work with the motu and a pc? i would be using both my pIV 2.4 with 512 ram (i want to put more 512 to get better response!)

that zero latency is only with mac?

Latency can be an issue or not. If a system is a very basic set up with only few channels activated, latency can be very low and not so much of an issue.

I like my DAW to perform like a console and recorder ... so I keep a lot of input channels activated and that bumps the latency up to a high and unacceptable level for overdubbing and talent monitoring ... so I use the AISO function in the soundcard to split the input back out of the (16 channels of) converters which I have normaled to the first 16 inputs of my Mackie SR24 ... I monitor the DAW mix via the spdif out of the soundcard which is routed to my stand alone CD recorder. I also have the outs of the CDr normaled to the 23/24 ins on the Mackie.. so I monitor the mix and inputs all on the Mackie without any delay ... I can send multiple phone mix's to talent, add effects (from my stand alone effects box's) to phones or monitors.

The Mackie provides C/R and talkback functions ... it works pretty cool if you ask me. I feel (almost) as if I were back in front of a large format console.

so do you think if i record 8 drum tracks and then put playback from the motu phones line out to record bass you think with my settings it would be zero latency?
both recording 24/44100 and 24/96

inLoco wrote: [quote=AudioGaff]They both are way too different to directly compare. The mackie is a full mixer with an interface. The 828MKII is an interface with a small mixer. The 828MKII has SMPTE, WC, S/PDIF and both ADAT optical I/O as well as ADAT sync which makes it more useable in the real world of interfacing gear in the digital realm. The 828MKII or rather two of them is an option I am considering myself.

so basically what you are saying is that the 828mkII is more reliable than the mackie... is it? and of course it has more tools to work with!

Well, No. That wasn't the message really. Which is more useable depends on your needs and requirements. The MOTU is more of a complete and flexable firewire system. The Mackie is 8-preamps with converters through a firewire interface option. I tend to put them in the same overwelming big catagory of average quaility and tone.

Reatime zero latency on the PC or MAC can only really be done in harware because the time it takes to go through the computer, drivers and recording application will always have some sort of processing time that is positive of zero.

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:

MOTU products come with a feature called "Audiodesk" which is a way to monitor inputs without latency.

I belive Audiodesk is the software sold in bundle with the MOTU interfaces, which is just Digital Performer without the MIDI part, and is Mac only;CUEMIX DSP is the no latency monitoring facility and works for both Mac and PC platformS, being hardware based.

L.G.

maintiger wrote: the 828mkii only has 2 preamps on board- it has 8 more analog inputs but you will need preamps with them- also you can send 8 more inputs via adat lilghthpipe- but you will need preamp as well. Then there are 2 inputs via spidif. I use these with a rosetta AD and you will need 2 more preamps as well.

On the mackie side you might possibly need a computer interface (am not sure on this) if so, you will neeed the 828 for the interface plus the mackie for the pres-

hey maintiger i need to know something... from what i recall you are a motu 828 mkII user.
you say it only has 2 pre-amps, and then spdif, 8 adat and 8 line ins...
my question is this:
you say the line ins need the pre-amps. but can i connect for example my bass or my keyboard?
another question is this:
i plan to buy the motu 828 mkII for recording mine and other bands shows! i'm thinking of buying it with maybe the m-audio octane for the 8 channel drums via adat, spdif i connect the gt6 bass effects and then pre-amps of my mixer to the line ins of the motu. the keys go there to (if i can connect...)
can i use the motu as a mixer doing the following:
recording every track, making a live mix for the club and using the other analog outs with different mixes for the drummer, the vocal...???
can i do this?
making this mixes requests much of my pIV 2,4 512 (soon to be 1024)???

sorry about so many questions but i really need to get all info!
if anyone can responde, besides maintiger cool!

many thanks guys

inLoco wrote: [hey maintiger i need to know something... from what i recall you are a motu 828 mkII user.
you say it only has 2 pre-amps, and then spdif, 8 adat and 8 line ins...
my question is this:
you say the line ins need the pre-amps. but can i connect for example my bass or my keyboard?
another question is this:
i plan to buy the motu 828 mkII for recording mine and other bands shows! i'm thinking of buying it with maybe the m-audio octane for the 8 channel drums via adat, spdif i connect the gt6 bass effects and then pre-amps of my mixer to the line ins of the motu. the keys go there to (if i can connect...)
can i use the motu as a mixer doing the following:
recording every track, making a live mix for the club and using the other analog outs with different mixes for the drummer, the vocal...???
can i do this?
making this mixes requests much of my pIV 2,4 512 (soon to be 1024)???

sorry about so many questions but i really need to get all info!
if anyone can responde, besides maintiger cool!

many thanks guys

You have 2 pres built in with both xlr and 1/4" so you could put your bass or stereo keys there.- for the other 8 analog inputs
you will need preamps- the ones in your mixer should be just fine if you have individual outs or inserts- either will work-

the octane can certainly connect via adat. another one to consider is the behringer 8 ch preamp with adat lightpipe out. My friend brought it over to try it and it was surprinsigly clear - at only $229 or so for 8ch is a steal. I don't know if the octane will be that much better but it is triple the price-
then there are 2 more channels available via spdif on the 828 for a grand total of 20 inputs- you will need a spdif connect for the extraa 2-

in the 828mkii you do have 8 individual outs, plus 2 main outs, plus 2 aux outs, not to mention the headphone outs- this will give you 7 potential stereo mixes on this box- I've never used it this way but I don't see why it couln't be done as the outs are fully programable.

I've had the 828mkii about 6 months and it has never failed me- the built in preamp are a little wimpy- I think they only go to 50 db- but they are certainly good enough for bass or keys. like I said, the other analog outs are not useable without preamps- I tried a keyboard & got zip level! we have used it all 20 inputs blazing at one time and it all went without a hitch- If i had any qualms about the unit it would be that the motu AD conversion is nowhere near the apoggee level. that's why I went out and got the 2 ch rosetta to go via spdif- I heard the difference when my freiend brought his rosetta over- but it works well enough for me, using (some of the )the 18 inputs for drums, scratch tracks, etc, then using the 2 ch via spdif for 'dubs, main vocals, direct bass and all that good stuff :D

maintiger wrote: You have 2 pres built in with both xlr and 1/4" so you could put your bass or stereo keys there.- for the other 8 analog inputs
you will need preamps- the ones in your mixer should be just fine if you have individual outs or inserts- either will work-

i have behringer 2004 mixer!
the first 8 channels have pre-amps and inserts on the back... this can work as individual outs???
i was thinking i could only use 4 pres because i have a main mix and an alternative 3-4. i would pan channel 1 and 2 hard right and send them to the right channel of the main mix, and then channels 3 and 4 hard left to connect do the left channels, main mix and alternative... but can inserts work as individual line outs?

I use the inserts on my Mackie boards as direct outs by inserting a TRS plug in to the "first click" - the plug hangs out of the connector by about a 1/4", but it makes the connection for the output but does not break the signal path through the channel.

zemlin wrote: I use the inserts on my Mackie boards as direct outs by inserting a TRS plug in to the "first click" - the plug hangs out of the connector by about a 1/4", but it makes the connection for the output but does not break the signal path through the channel.

so what you are saying is that the sound doesn't lose quality but volume?
do you think does volume levels are acceptable?

inLoco wrote: so what you are saying is that the sound doesn't lose quality but volume?

I don't think I said that. It works fine - no gain or quality issues. The only potential issue is that it is unbalanced, but my patch cables are only a few feet long and foil shielded - noise has not been an issue.

Well - the other potential issue is when someone helpful comes along and pushes all the insert plugs in the rest of the way. :evil:

maintiger wrote: the octane can certainly connect via adat. another one to consider is the behringer 8 ch preamp with adat lightpipe out. My friend brought it over to try it and it was surprinsigly clear - at only $229 or so for 8ch is a steal. I don't know if the octane will be that much better but it is triple the price-
then there are 2 more channels available via spdif on the 828 for a grand total of 20 inputs- you will need a spdif connect for the extraa 2-
...using the 2 ch via spdif for 'dubs, main vocals, direct bass and all that good stuff :D

do you think the difference isn't that much? can anyone back this up? i've seen to the new 8 channel pre-amp for SP but it doesn't work with adat... (very strange... i think...)
about that spdif for dubs... you use the rosetta 200 right? i've checked a lot of net stores and just doesn't see it! as they stopped shipping it? by the way... what's the price on that?
it's just that i'd like a decent 8 channel pre-amp to work with adat but now i am leaning towards something like the rosetta for dubs or the rme fireface cause i hear rme has very good conversion...

I haven't heard the octane- I heard the behringer and as I said, is ok for 200 bucs- I don't know if the difference is enough to warrant 600 vs 200 bucs- you'll have to look into that yourself as I don't plan to buy an octane (unless someone brings it by the studio to check it out, like it happened with the behringer) I don't plan to buy a behringer either! The rosetta I have is the 24/48 (with a 96 option), 2 ch. there is one on e-bay right now. They usually go for around $700 or so used.. here is the link:

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://cgi.ebay.com…"]LINK[/]="http://cgi.ebay.com…"]LINK[/]

By the way, if I wanted to have 8 more connections viad adat I'd probably buy the 8 ch Lucid AD converter and use good preamps with it. Another friend brought his by the studio and we checked it out- its a fine box and it goes around 1K+ when you can find them used on ebay. Ramsa-panasonic also has an 8ch box that sometimes goes under 1k on e-bay but I haven't heard that one... :D

Don't get sidetracked ... this whole pre and converter or the all in one box thing has me in an tizzy ...

Mic pres (if you get good ones) will last forever. Converters come and go. It may seem to all of us (at this point) converter development is at a standstill and I admit things have been remarkably stable for a while now but I would be willing to bet the farm that there will be some new developments coming down the pike as soon as everyone has moved to 196k.

This may take a while but as soon as storage gets cheap enough and computer speed comes up to snuff where we can all handle these higher rates while still having enough system headroom to run tracks and plugs, it will go there.

What I have noticed is a huge hole in the market place for converters. There is just about nothing available between the Alesis AI3 and the Apogee 16 X series converters ... all the RME, Aardvark, Lynx etc. stuff all are tied to mic pres and various formats for transfer. What would be great is a simple 8 channel converter that is line in line out on ADAT and or Firewire. It could be a card option which format ADAT or Firewire that the customer selects for themselves.

What would be very cool would be a system with a nice analog stage where all the conversion is done in the card option leaving the opportunity for the user to upgrade to a different format at a later time.

Kurt Foster wrote: What I have noticed is a huge hole in the market place for converters. There is just about nothing available between the Alesis AI3 and the Apogee 16 X series converters ... all the RME, Aardvark, Lynx etc. stuff all are tied to mic pres and various formats for transfer. What would be great is a simple 8 channel converter that is line in line out on ADAT and or Firewire. It could be a card option which format ADAT or Firewire that the customer selects for themselves.
.

that's why the lucid I mentioned in my previous post is attractive. Its just 8ch of AD conversion via adat to your computer card- use your choice of pres! My friend, as I mentioned, brought one over and this box sounds good- He got it for about $1100 on evilbay...

here is a link to the lucid site:

http://www.lucidaudio.com/products/product_8824_ADAT_info.htm

I do think he got the previous version, though, one that was only AD, not AD/DA

hey i've checked the link but... i live in portugal and it only ships to US. and besides i'm still evaluating all the options!
most of all i'm learning with all you guys so what i'm leaning towards is this:
i want to record live gigs, and in my home studio too! quality above average!

so i'm checking now this
rme fireface 800
i need 8 mics for drums, 2 for vocals, 2 for guitars, 2 for room, 2 keys, 1 bass, one ac guitar.
i have a behringer 2004 mixer! it has 8 inserts so i'll connect the drum mics.
fireface has 4 pres built in, so i'll connect vocals, and guitars.
buy some 8 channel pre-amp for adat in. so i'll connect the acoustic guitar there, keys and the room mics.
bass goes from the boss gt6b to the spdif of the fireface 800 and to one of the adat pres.

drum mics i'm checking:
kick- akg 112
snare and toms- sm 57
overheads- sp c4
hi-hat- akg 451 (this one for recording in my homestudio acoustic guitar as well with the c4's)
vocal mics- sm 58 (already have them)
guitar mics- sm 57 (possibily won't buy them cause for live gigs every club has them!)
room mics- i want some cheap ones (or do you think i need them?)
for my homestudio i'd like to see a good pre and vocal/ac mic.
what do you guys think of the sp t3 tube mic? is this good for vocals and guitar? what good pre goes with this? does the cheap one from sp works?

for studio mic i'm seeing this ones:
SP T3
Rode NT 2000
AKG 3000B
Audio technica 4040 or 4033
any other suggested one that goes around those prices?

InLoco,

I will be short and succinct. I would lean towards the ATM 4033 or the SP T3 ... the Rode and the AKG3000 I can live without.

You shouldn't need (or want) room mics unless you have a good "live room".

I don't know what your preferences are but I personally think all pop music is based on the drums. I like to use premium channels for drums or at least the kick, snare and overheads.. this is why these all in one solutions only frustrate me. Below par pres that are really of no use to me, ... it wasted money IMO and a way for manufacturers to foist off useless mic pres on a public that really doesn't want to buy them. Look at Gaff, he wants a solution and is willing to purchase a box that has useless crap in it in order to get the path to a DAW/computer from his nice front end gear. I think it's a waste of money but what's a guy to do? It gets worse when the line inputs on these box's are a padded down section of the crap pres and isn't a true discreet line input ... then you basically have channels that are completely useless.

maintiger wrote: [quote=Kurt Foster]What I have noticed is a huge hole in the market place for converters. There is just about nothing available between the Alesis AI3 and the Apogee 16 X series converters ... all the RME, Aardvark, Lynx etc. stuff all are tied to mic pres and various formats for transfer. What would be great is a simple 8 channel converter that is line in line out on ADAT and or Firewire. It could be a card option which format ADAT or Firewire that the customer selects for themselves.
.

that's why the lucid I mentioned in my previous post is attractive. Its just 8ch of AD conversion via adat to your computer card- use your choice of pres! My friend, as I mentioned, brought one over and this box sounds good- He got it for about $1100 on evilbay...

here is a link to the lucid site:

http://www.lucidaudio.com/products/product_8824_ADAT_info.htm

I do think he got the previous version, though, one that was only AD, not AD/DA

Yeah .... I'm looking towards a firewire solution ... the ADAT protocol is going to be obsolecent soon because it has issues ... like jitter over any length of lightpipe and inability to deal with higher sample rates ... yeah the smux thing works but doesn't seem to be catching on ... Firewire seems to be more attractive to the marketplace .. and precludes the need for an ADAT PCI card ... less hardware and less drivers to mess with ..

MANUFACTURERS TAKE NOTICE!
What would be very cool ... a quality 8 in 8 out, D to A and A to D converter .. with all the analog circuitry and power supply in the box and all the converter circuitry on a removable card with the ability to upgrade sample rates or even to a conversion format like DSD at a later date ... on Firewire protocol. If this could be sold for under $1000 there would be a mile long line of people ready to buy it!

Kurt Foster wrote:
I don't know what your preferences are but I personally think all pop music is based on the drums. I like to use premium channels for drums or at least the kick, snare and overheads.. this is why these all in one solutions only frustrate me. Below par pres that are really of no use to me, ... it wasted money IMO and a way for manufacturers to foist off useless mic pres on a public that really doesn't want to buy them.

yeah kurt i agree! the reason i'm thinking of using my behringer 2004 mic pres for the drums is simply because i don't afford some good ones now! i expect to be making money recording live gigs from bands who are starting and need a demo! why go to a studio and have around 100 $ for song when you can record a live gig for around 250 $ (that's what i'm thinking of charging). when a musician goes to a label or manager they want to hear them live! that's why i think this thing will work...
so when i have more money i'd sure invest on good pres!

Kurt Foster wrote:
You shouldn't need (or want) room mics unless you have a good "live room".

what do you mean? those room mics i'd be thinking for recording live gigs! put them where the mixer is pointing towards the crowd and stage! are they necessary and what kind of budget solution would you recommend?

InLoco,
I understand .. but I would still use the best channels for drums and religate something else like guitars to the Behringer ... Drums, bass and vocals .. that's pop musics lifeblood! Those things should have the best in mics, pres and to a lesser extent, converters.

Crowd mics can be just about anything extra you have .. In most cases you will bring them up between songs and then turn them down during the music. Unless they are correctly placed and the venue has excellent acoustics .. room mics can create more hassles than what they contribute in the way of good stuff. In many cases, the crowd will come up over the stage mics anyhow and may not be needed at all. YMMV..

hey kurt i'd like you to hear something... if you can... there is here in portugal a band called Da Weasel! they have a new album and just think the drums are phenomenal! great sound! they are on kazaa and emule...
the album is called re-definições! try to download from the web this song:
Carrossel (Às Vezes Dá-me para Isto)
if you can't find it like these try just carrossel or try this one:
Casa (Vem Fazer de Conta)

these songs have great drum sounds! they're sound is similiar to N*E*R*D*

everybody check them out! they rock!

Kurt Foster wrote: Crowd mics can be just about anything extra you have .. In most cases you will bring them up between songs and then turn them down during the music. Unless they are correctly placed and the venue has excellent acoustics .. room mics can create more hassles than what they contribute in the way of good stuff. In many cases, the crowd will come up over the stage mics anyhow and may not be needed at all. YMMV..

ok! i'm thinking that for now no crowd mics with my budget! maybe if the venues have mics, then i'd try them!
if latter i'd buy some mics for crowd i'd possibly use some that have other possibilities in the studio!

when you talk about those great mic pres for drums... could you tell me a few of the ones you like for drums (may be the expensives too...)
i really need to evaluate all options!

Hey Kurt, I asked this already in another post but you must have missed it- how do you connect pres to the apogee Ad16X? My rosetta has 2 xlr ins and then goes out spdif but i do not see any pictures of 16 xlr ins in the 16X box- Like you I am considering this box but I do want to use it with my own pres- :D

not manny other opinons floting around right now so ill put in my two bits;
Loco your useing a PC, go on ebay and find a M-Audio Delta 1010 they go for US$200-400 save your monney and buy a couple of good pres Grace or the like. that way ues the berihnger for the pres when you need alot of inputs sutch as drums and ues the good pres for the single insterment, another thing you will want to do is figur up some kind of baffleing for the computer if its in the same room, carfull not to over heat it though.
also use the good pres for the for over heads when your doing drums.

frob wrote: not manny other opinons floting around right now so ill put in my two bits;
Loco your useing a PC, go on ebay and find a M-Audio Delta 1010 they go for US$200-400 save your monney and buy a couple of good pres Grace or the like. that way ues the berihnger for the pres when you need alot of inputs sutch as drums and ues the good pres for the single insterment, another thing you will want to do is figur up some kind of baffleing for the computer if its in the same room, carfull not to over heat it though.
also use the good pres for the for over heads when your doing drums.

thanks for your reply! but i need to have the ability to use my "soundcard" with laptop and desktop! i need to record live gigs. sometimes i'll go to my keyboard player's house and record something... so i'll need something that works with firewire!
that's why i'm seeing between motu and rme products! if i have the money i'm almost sure i'll go for the rme fireface 800! rme conversion as a very good reputation! i'm sure the pre-amps are like motu's... resonable!
if i buy something like the behringer 8pres with adat is for the soul purpose of live recording! at home i can use my mixer! but cause i need around 18 to 20 inputs live i need to have something that works with adat!
in the near future when money allows :shock: i'll try to get decent pres. maybe not in 8 channel modes, but 2!

Get the 828mkii- you have 2 built in pres plus 8 more analog ins that you can use the inserts of your mixer- then get the behringer 8ch w/adat- that will give you 18 inputs, more than enough for live- that will set you back only 1K and the sound will be good enough for live work

later on, when you get more cash, get 2 primo pres and a rosetta or lucid Ad where you can go to the 828 via spdif- that will give you 2 premium pres for studio recording plus 2 premium pres you can also use live- like primo overheads- The Ad will set you back between $500- $1200, depending what you buy and if you buy used or new. It will also add 2 inputs to your live rig bringing it up to 20-

I've heard both apogee and lucid- they both sound good- I kinda like the rosetta better but that's my taste- also I appreciate the built in limiter in he rosetta to prevent digital overs- If you get an used 48/98 rosetta it shouldn't be much over $700-
then 2 channels of premium pres will run you anywheres $1200 and up- so for 2K more or less you should have a great front end for vocals, solo instruments and o'dubs- (plus 2 great live channels!)

Then later on go for upgrading your pres for live and you won't be stuck with stuff you can't get rid of or lose you ass on- the behringer is only $200 or so and if when you update your live conversion and pres later on and you only get $50 back, who cares, you got your moneys worth out of it already-

maintiger wrote: Hey Kurt, I asked this already in another post but you must have missed it- how do you connect pres to the apogee Ad16X? My rosetta has 2 xlr ins and then goes out spdif but i do not see any pictures of 16 xlr ins in the 16X box- Like you I am considering this box but I do want to use it with my own pres- :D

Xavier,
The Rosetta 800 and the AD16X and DA16x all employ Tascam DB 25 connectors for the ins and outs. This is great when doing remotes because you have just a couple snakes to plug in and you set tp go but it kinda sucks because you have the extra expense of these snakes when purchasing..

thanks! I've also been considering the older version of the 16X as you can find them used sometimes for under $1500 - its only 24/48 (it might also be upgradeable to 96k with an update, I forget) but that would be adequate for my needs and is 2k cheaper than the new one- when the new ones came out there were a number of them out on ebay- I should have scooped one up then! :D

i would go with the RME over the motu ive used motu and think that their converters are if-ie at best espeshaly since for the money there are better converters arround but like stated earlyer in this thred it also has a few more feachears (sorry about the spelling its been a long day)

everyone thanks for the comments!

so maintiger i've checked here in europe the prices i may get for the following

motu 828mkII - 888 euros
behringer ada8000 - 230 euros
akg 112 - 192 euros
akg 451B - 287 euros
shure sm 57 x5 - 475 euros
studio projects c4 - 322 euros
studio projects t3 - 487 euros

total - 2884 euros
of course i'd have to include more supports and cables

maintiger i've checked the apogee website and didn't see any 48/98 rosetta!
apogee stuff it's really expensive!
do you guys suggest a mic pre with spdif with one or two channels?

kurt do you think i'd go better with the sp t3 or the at 4033?
is the difference worth?
i never tried any tube mic but i sure love my fender hotrod deluxe tube amp! would buying that cheap sp vtb1 pre boost the sound or is a waste of money?

what about the focusrite isa 428? is it good? it has spdif so i can connect to digitally to the motu 828mkII right?
is these any good?

inLoco wrote: maintiger i've checked the apogee website and didn't see any 48/98 rosetta!
apogee stuff it's really expensive!
do you guys suggest a mic pre with spdif with one or two channels?
y?

the lucid 2 ch is still adequate and is cheaper-

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/188300/

sometimes you can find them used on ebay for around - 400-500 us

inLoco asked;,

"kurt do you think i'd go better with the sp t3 or the at 4033? '

These are different animals ... the T3 is a tube LD [1"] condenser and the 4033 is a FET mid sized diaphragm [3/4"] condenser.

The T3 is a good design and sounds good ... another affordable tube LD is the CAD M9.

The K2 is a great tube as well- I love it- they can be had for under $600 or so...

i think that recording with a tube mic vocals and acoustic guitar it would have more presence and give a warm feel... that's why i'm thinking of a tube mic!
and what about a pre for it? any suggestion?

how does the latency work with the motu and a pc? i would be using both my pIV 2.4 with 512 ram (i want to put more 512 to get better response!)

that zero latency is only with mac?

No, as was pointed out earlier, AudioDesk is a recording program that only works on Mac...basically an old version of Digital Performer with no MIDI. CueMix is the program that controls monitoring, and it works on Mac and PC. Basically the 828mkII has a digital mixer built into it, so you can monitor all of your inputs...analog and digital...with no latency. The amount of RAM in your computer isn't really an issue since everything's taken care of before the audio even gets into your computer.

There is just about nothing available between the Alesis AI3 and the Apogee 16 X series converters ... all the RME, Aardvark, Lynx etc. stuff all are tied to mic pres and various formats for transfer.

There are actually quite a few options...Frontier's Tango is a step up from the Ai3 and runs about $700. RME has a few converters available as well (that are converters only, no preamps or computer I/O) that start at about a grand. Apogee's Rosetta 800 is a step below the 16X-series stuff and almost as good...it doesn't have the C777 clock in it, but Apogee were always known for the quality of their clocks even before they came out with the C777.

What would be great is a simple 8 channel converter that is line in line out on ADAT and or Firewire. It could be a card option which format ADAT or Firewire that the customer selects for themselves.

That's pretty much what the Rosetta800 is...ADAT is standard, Firewire is optional (and coming "soon'). It's cheaper than the 16X stuff, but not cheap.

how do you connect pres to the apogee Ad16X? My rosetta has 2 xlr ins and then goes out spdif but i do not see any pictures of 16 xlr ins in the 16X box

As Kurt pointed out, it has its inputs on two D-Sub connectors. You can easily get an eight-channel snake with XLR's that shouldn't cost more than buying eight individual XLR's or an XLR snake. They're readily available from about every company that makes snakes and cables.

I've also been considering the older version of the 16X as you can find them used sometimes for under $1500 - its only 24/48 (it might also be upgradeable to 96k with an update, I forget)

Actually, the older version (the AD16) "only" goes up to 96kHz, where the X-series goes up to 192.

what about the focusrite isa 428? is it good? it has spdif so i can connect to digitally to the motu 828mkII right?

I have one, and it is good. I have an older Apogee Rosetta as well, and I'd say the converters are definitely on par with each other. I haven't done an A/B comparison, but they sound close enough that I haven't found such a comparison to be necessary. It has both ADAT and S/PDIF, so you could connect it digitally to the 828 either way. The converters are a great deal...they certainly sound better than they should for $600, although since you've already paid for the chassis, power supply, and lots of the analog circuitry the price makes sense. I'm not too worried about them becoming obsolete either, as the 428 still would make a great analog-only box and if Focusrite really wanted to they could certainly come out with a new A/D card if the market ever demanded it. Not that I'd necessarily count on that...

-Duardo