Hello Jon,
Welcome to the RO forum.

Have you considered analog gear? EQ, compressors, mic pres.. ect.

Let me tell you a little about what I think. A lot of us think plug-ins are, well....., wimpy. There have been big improvements, but the fact of the manner is analog still has a smoother sheen, and it probably always will.

Analog tape is expensive and digital is just 1's and 0's so its just a question of memory storage for your sessions, no issues with keeping you deck clean and buying expensive tapes that require care. We are saving money by using digital but we pay for it in the quality of sheen in our recordings.

Its just that if you learned how to record with a pro quality analog tape deck you may think digital is pale in comparison. I sure do!

Anyway, I am also using a presonus firestudio and a macbook most of the time so I am in the same boat. I also use otari mx 5050 8track and 55 1/4 master decks that I own.

What mics do you own?

What do you want to do?

Is there a particular sound you are looking to acquire?

i own a
audix I5
shure beta 91
set of audix drum mics
sennheiser e602
shure 81
several shure 57s
several shure 58s

an avalon u5

presonus fp-10

i want to upgrade what ever it takes to get a pro sounding studio

i love the tones that the deftones get personally especially the drum/bass tone

Before shelling out dough, get the best handle on what you have. What do you use for software? Read "The Recording Engineers Handbook" by Bobby Owsinski and you will be off to a good start.

This thread is a good list of books.
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and this sticky:
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melovine wrote:
"i want to upgrade what ever it takes to get a pro sounding studio"

Don't we all.

Listen to what GeckoMusic is telling you and get the best handle on what you have.

Read, read again and then read some more about recording.

There are no rules, do what works for you.

I still have not done enough to get a handle on my gear, thats mainly because I really don't have the time most days, I'd rather work on music and my voice. :o

This week since I have been only working part time I was working on remixing some songs that some very close friends of mine and I recorded in my apartment five years ago.

It really helps to record someone else so you can keep your mind on engineering them. Do everything possible to get them to sound the best you can. I am finding that it takes years to get to know the equipment, there are so many possible solutions to a given job that making a split second decision can set you back.

One things for sure, if you want quality, buy quality!

Bret

Dude, (that's my best Texas imitation. I'm from Detroit) you already have what you need to produce a professional product. A first-rate professional product. But that only comes with skill & experience, not equipment. Your microphones, your FP 10 & bundled software is more than adequate. But like has been already said, many of us are still using our old analog consoles. But the microphone preamps in your unit are fine. Again though, proper recording levels are of paramount importance. You already have the microphones we all use. So it's really only a matter of technique you need to concentrate upon. A deluxe microphone preamp, like you mentioned is good but not necessary. And when recording/tracking your band, you'll definitely want those 8 simultaneous inputs at a minimum. If you want to record 24 simultaneous tracks, you're going to need to make a substantial investment? How much money you got? 1000? 10,000? 100,000? I personally don't like recording into software much. I generally use a dedicated 24 track hard disk recorder, with my 24 output console. My Alesis HD 24xr, was cheap. My console was not cheap. So it doesn't sound like a cheap console. It sounds like 24 of what you are inquiring about. Are you going to buy 24 of those? Right, too expensive. So anything else & everything else in a reasonable price range, will all be similar sounding to your FP 10. And don't use manufacturers specifications to determine your purchase. They mean nothing. Really. Truly. It's the engineering. When you get really good with the cheap stuff? You'll sound really good with the expensive stuff. If you can't make a good recording with the cheap stuff? You're not ready for the good stuff. And even if you have the good stuff, it will sound good without the technique behind it. You are asking for spoon feeding of "magic pills". It doesn't exist. What I can tell you is... LESS IS MORE & give me a KISS or, "KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID". You don't need to track with any equalization. You don't need to mix with any either. Really. And you can still get a kick ass sound. It's all in the balance, microphone selection & placement.

38 years and counting
Ms. Remy Ann David

thank you guys for the replies i will check some of those books out definently i think i just like the analog feel of a console though remy, what would be a good direction to go in if i said hey i want to spend $2000 on upgrading my studio to achieve a better sound?

Oh yes,
I can recommend one more thing I just thought of. The magazine Tape Op has a book available now:

Tape Op Volume II + CD $30.00
http://www.tonevendor.com/item/29357

I have the Book Tape Op Volume one somewhere in my house. I cannot find it right now, but if you would like me to pull up the ISBN and post it just let me know!

I really have gotten a lot out of that book.

FYI if you don't know what ISBN is it is the number that is used to search for on used book stores. In other words you can find just about any book using its ISBN on bn.com (Barnes+Noble) and you can save some serious $$!

ive seen tons of studios with the same if not worse gear getting a pro sound...so I've come to believe its all about how you use it.

A lot of that "pro" sound comes from the mixing process...no one ever has a final product without at least some mixing. The fp10 came with cubase right? get some plugins...psp vintage warmer (tube compression) is a good one that I use all the time.

jammster wrote: Let me tell you a little about what I think. A lot of us think plug-ins are, well....., wimpy.

I don't agree with that at all. I think that it's time to put away the prejudices and listen with our ears. The major downfall of plug ins is cpu drain. Sure there are better options in hardware but software is a reasonable option. Not the free ones or the cracked ones of course but there are plenty of good plug ins. That's why they cost so much.

Hueseph, call me old fashioned.. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that is mine. Maybe its because digital is a little to sharp for my ears :o

jammster wrote: Hueseph, call me old fashioned.. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that is mine. Maybe its because digital is a little to sharp for my ears :o

Then please voice it as such and don't claim to speak for others. :shock:

I think you'd be surprised how many "professional" people are happy with plug ins. There are applications where plug ins simply aren't capable or are too resource heavy to be useful without some extensive support hardware. Particularly in mastering but overall they can sound very good.

Many of the more expensive plugs are direct models of their hardware counterparts which is what makes them more expensive. It's not just amps that are modeled these days. For the average user that is a godsend.

It's funny. When there was only analog tape, people used to complain that analog is so noisy and they couldn't get a clean representation of what they were hearing. Now that the digital age is here, people complain that it's too clean. That it lacks the coloration of tape. Don't get me wrong I love the sound of saturated tape but I also like the quiet and clean sound of a good digital recording. Both have their uses. And yes, for the most part, you can impart analog "warmth" to digital recordings with hardware AND software. Let's not write it off before we've tried it.

To quote the great philosopher Theodor Seuss Geisel:

"You do not like it. So you say. Try it and you may. Try it and you may I say!".

As you said Hueseph, plugins are for the average user.

I don't like them. I'm one of the "lot" Jammster is talking about.

Greener wrote: As you said Hueseph, plugins are for the average user.

I don't like them. I'm one of the "lot" Jammster is talking about.

You haven't tried the right ones.There are plenty of people right on this forum who happily use plugins. Not that this is the norm but eddie Kramer promotes and it seems, sincerely lauds Waves plug ins. Sure it's a matter of paid marketing but he seemed sincere enough. The results were impressive.

I'm happy for Mr. Kramer and his marketing junket. I'm sure he loves them. I'm also sure he has every piece of analog outboard gear you could poke a stick at.

I understand people have to make do with what they've got. But nine times out of ten people over process the hell out of music and it sounds nasty and cheesy. Maybe this is my main objection to plugins... People abuse them.

That doesn't make the software bad. Just the user. I think you will find that people will over process with hardware just as much if not more as with software. Hardware doesn't bear down on your CPU so it's easy to turn it up to eleven.

I apologize for my statement.

Plugins do wonderful things with audio and certainly I made a bad statement by saying what I did, the way I did.

Not all plugs are created equal, thats for sure! ! !

I am sure I offended the people that work very hard to make, promote and endorse them.

So, perhaps there is only a few of us that believe that plugins are unsatisfactory compared to there analog ancestors.
Plugs have come a long way in their development and I agree that we should let our ears be the judge.

Case in point. I am a musician first,
Second, an engineer.

I have done personal projects and few professional ones. Why? Because I believe you can sell out and let your soul die! I believe in isolation from the world. Call me crazy! Its one way artists, writers and producers can define a style without having influence from garbage! And if you don't think there is any garbage out there thats your opinion.

As you know musicians like me are not very rich, they sacrifice for what they can afford. I work a day job and have little time for music on most days. I mostly enjoy acoustic music, but have firm roots with electronic music too. I actually enjoy a mix of electronic and acoustic music.

I have a macintosh PPC 8100 from 1996 that is running Deck II along with a digidesign soundtools II interface. I was planning on using them for many more years because that was enough for my purposes.

When a good friend of mine showed me his new iMac and GarageBand I had to take notice. The improvements made since 1996 were enough for me to decide now would be a good time to buy a new computer and interface.

I got a MacBook and a FireStudio, both of which I use daily. I have Logic Pro 8, its a wonderful program. I shelled out $1000 for Logic 7, then a few months later paid $200 to get LP8 after I found that GarageBand 4 was incompatible with LP7.
So, it has been a long process for me and I am still trying to catch up to all the latest and greatest.

I was so blown away with how good the logic compressors sound that I stopped using my DBX.

Now recently, since I have loaded old sessions with my DBX I have come to see how the analog circut is of value, it is a softer sound that improves the quality of the recording.

Now if I had a few hundred dollars I could try some waves plugs, see if they are better, but why? I need money for my mortgage, I can wait on that. Besides, why should I buy I product before its developed? Because personally I think digital audio technology is underdeveloped / overrated.

You see, I have an analog console and outboard gear. Things have changed radically in twenty years. The digital domain has changed the music industry in ways that go beyond. . . wait, lets have this discussion later.

Its just that people forget that analog gear, such as tape, is pleasant to the ear, and so is digital at times but not all the time. Or perhaps there are so many people now that have never heard a professional tape recording

People on this forum are using plugs, thats great. Do what works for you. But why should you be so afraid to run outboard gear? Its a stronger sound, and yes it does ad some noise, but so what!

Greener could not have said it better, people abuse it. Digital can sound harsh, not that it should and not that it does, just that the potential is there and is often abused.

Pushing analog can get nasty results too, but people forget. Were modeling the real thing. Why not take the real thing, isn't that better?

and I should try waves plugs then? I have heard great things about them.

As an engineer I have come to recognize how important some aspects of analog gear is to an artistic and pleasant sound.

Wow I have to say I am with Hueseph on this one. Plug-in or hardware it doesn't really matter to me. "If it sounds good ,then its good"

And just beacuse its hardware doesn't make it magically better to my ears.

Bottom line listen and learn, if your plug in is too much at "11" but sounds great a "2" then its great, use it.

Its the same for hardware....

Just my 2 cents.

"Digital sounds harsh"- actually usually its the analog filters in the front of the ADC that make the digital sound harsh. Modern ADC have come a long way, but again use your ears.

There are - in my personal opinion - only two things that you need and one thing to do.

The two things you need are a treated listening environment and a nice set of monitors. That way you can be reasonably sure that you are hearing things "as they are" and that your mixes will translate.

The thing you need to do is experiment. Reading all those books is important, but you have to apply what you have learned. Keep moving mics around, adjusting your signal flow, etc. And don't be afraid of thinking way out of the box. Rap and Techno, in their infancy, was people using cheap out-dated gear to create something new.