you got a bad cable

Hi,

Thanks for the reply :)

That's what we thought but have tried replacing all cables with either new or old just to be sure and its still the same

Many thanks
Joe

Am I getting this right ? You're vst has less treble than it's suppose to ?

I assume you started a project from scratch in cubase. No effect anywhere...
Did you try to render it to audio and export it to listen on an other system ?
did you think to deactivate any effect in kontakt
Is the problem only occuring with vsti. What if you load a commercial recording in cubase ?

Man, you need to eliminate stuff. Play a cd with windows media player
Could be converters, audio format mismatch.. I'll wait for your answers

Hi Pcrecord!

Thanks alot for the reply :)

Am I getting this right ? You're vst has less treble than it's suppose to ?
- Yes thats right also audio Inputs like guitars and mics seem dull and just lifeless

I assume you started a project from scratch in Cubase. No effect anywhere...
- Yes it was still the same. I even loaded kontakt and other VSTi's standalone and they were still the same

Did you try to render it to audio and export it to listen on an other system ?
- I will try this hadn't thought of that to be honest

did you think to deactivate any effect in kontakt
- yep all effects deactivated :)
Is the problem only occuring with vsti. What if you load a commercial recording in cubase ?
- Here is the strange thing. It is dull on VSTi's and dull on inputs like Guitar and Vocals but as said above when we plugged in a Alesis HD24 into the system and listened back to stuff record in 70's and 80's it sounded really good, clear and upfront/full of life. I have tried commercial songs in the computer and id say they don't sound great (Tried Flac, Wavs, MP3s etc of all sorts of music from old to new)

Thanks alot for the help :)

Joe

When you connected the HD deck to your system, did you do so through your primary audio I/O? Or did you interface it in a different way?

Hi DonnyThompson,

Thanks for the reply!

It is plugged exactly the same way as our mixing desk was via the raydat. I'll also just write the route of the how everything gets in and out.

It goes:
- Soundcraft 328xd (for external instruments) to raydat in computer

- raydat goes out to the AIO card in same computer

- goes out of the computer to a Mackie big knob which goes to the Adams and also a direct headphone out from the AIO card.

- cubase and audition obviously connect to the cards etc. Also the raydat cards is the wordclocl master for the system

Many thanks
Joe

Once we know if the render audio is ok or not on an other sound system, we'll start to pinpoint the problem ;)
If anything you play from the computer isn't sounding good, it might be the DA converter or a setting in the audio driver or in windows audio settings.
Any rendering or dithering before sending to the DA ?

You are trying to diagnose a problem without breaking things down to basics. I suspect you have something like an an ADAT double-path with a time delay of less than a millisecond between the paths, and this is causing amplitude nulls in the upper audio range. Using the HD24 to feed in natively via ADAT only uses one of the paths and hence no nulling.

As a method example, start by taking the whole computer, Raydat and AIO boards out of the loop by connecting the Adam monitors directly to the analog outputs of the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.soundcra…"]Soundcraft[/]="http://www.soundcra…"]Soundcraft[/] 328xd. Now listen to how the console's microphone and line inputs sound going directly out to the speakers (not in the same room, obviously). Add the Big Knob into the speaker lines. Proceed from there by adding a computer loop via the ADAT inputs and outputs. Build back up to a bigger system but leave out all VSTis and plug-ins until you have found the problem.

Hey,

Thanks for all your replies :)

pcrecord
I have created a empty cubase project just load kontakt 5 with studio drummer into it and exported it and tried it on a few different speakers (everything from laptop to good speakers) it sounds better than the cubase computer but when comparing it to studio drummers examples on there website they still sound a bit better when in theory ours should sound a lot better as its not an MP3 format!

I'm not sure about rendering or dithering. It goes straight from the AIO analog outs to the Mackie big knob to the speakers (I have tried bypassing the big knob and still sounded the same )

Boswell

Hi Boswell,

The soundcraft is only used for inputs into the computer. Nothing goes back to it. The audio that comes out of the PC comes out via the AIO card via analog into the big knob (I have tried removing big knob and still sounds the same)

Many thanks
Joe

Vsti are not magical, usually they are mixed but not mastered. Going to mastering, the sound can change a lot. I don't know about studio drummer production and website samples tho.
Other thing, the recording of the midi track can change the sound as well. I usually record my midi tracks on an roland electronic drum that allows me to have good natural dynamics. It changes the sound considerably.

If you export the files and it sound better on other system, you already have a part of the answer, your system have a problem ; possibly in the DA converter area or the way Cubase compute the output of audio. Investigate about dithering options in cubase...

Hi,

Thanks for the reply Pcrecord! Yeh we tried the midi thing with a set of drum pads and also patterns that came inside studio drummer and it was the same unfortunately. We ran a test generator through the system and it looks like the PC maybe losing about 10db of treble up in the 10 -15khz region. That is the area we always have to boost to make it sound rightish. Surely this shouldn't be the case?

I will look into dithering like you have said and get back to you with either the answer or requesting you help and advice :)

I would like to say that i really appreciate this help from all that have helped so far :)

Many thanks
Joe

Hi,

I have looked in Cubase and found that the Dither is a plugin that needs to be attached to master bus out. Currently this is not enabled and never has been. If I enabled this would it effect the sound coming out of the system (not audio mixdowns as we don't use audio mixdowns)

Also as it stands at the moment everything is recorded in 24bit at 48k and then mixed down to those same settings in audition. if that helps at all?

Many thanks
Joe

I guess, the next step is to try with another audio interface. If you can borrow one or rent one. Just test the output with a commercial CD with windows media player first, then with cubase...

Hi Pcrecord

Thanks for the reply!

I have 2 RME raydat cards and an RME AIO card. So i took your advice and tried each raydat card on its own (these are all adat) and then the AIO card on its own (Analog outs) They all show the same loss. I tried a cheap EMU card that showed the same and also a Focusrite external unit and also showed the same.

Do think there could be something in windows that could need adjusting?

Many thanks
Joe

I think you are getting somewhere now. If all the I/O cards you tried (both analog and ADAT) gave similar results, you have to look at how you tried them and see if the problem could be in how you are setting up the system and the tests.

Can you tell us the signal routing through the equipment for the analog board tests and for the ADAT I/O tests? Which Focusrite product was it that you tried? How did you configure the DAW for these tests?

Hi Boswell!

Thanks for the reply :)

Well see I'm not 100% sure what could be setup wrong lol. I installed the cards the latest drivers and firmware and then just routed in using there own supplied mixconsoles.

I built the computer and am very knowledgable with building and coding etc so am not afraid to try things if you suggest things. What things should I look for in setting up the system? Im running Windows 7 64bit.

What things could go wrong with the test. We have tried Hardware tone Generators, Tone Generators in cubase and even Apps Tone Generators for phones and they all go to a frequency analyser which again ive tried a few Hardware ones (cheap and expensive) and also Apps for phones again. The all show a 10db loss after 10k. It is also showing after some research I did lastnight what appears to be Harmonic distortion. It shows say 5k peak on the analyser and then to the right of it a little frequency peak on most frequency's if that helps at all?

I shall try my best :)

AIO Board - Analog/Digital

I have tried Going into the AIO via Analog and out via analog and also in via adat and out via analog. This just goes straight into the PC into there "Mix Console" and then straight back out again.

Raydat Board - Digital

Straight into the Raydat Via Adat and Out Via Adat. again Straight into PC into the Mix console and backout.

It is a focusrite Saffire 6 not most expensive thing but still good :)

Is that what you were after or have i miss understood?

I have been on the RME forums and they are saying there is no way the Raydat can effect frequency loss. Do you think this could be them just being unhelpfull or is this true?

many thanks
Joe

well, something is wizzly, that's for certain.

I agree with PC and Bos, you really need to strip this down to the most basic I/O schematic. Try the primary audio I/O on another computer running W7 or 8.

If you aren't having the same trouble on another computer, then there is something happening on the PC you are currently using.

If the problems persist on another PC, then you've got it narrowed down to your primary Audio I/O device.

There are other things you could try:

Have you disabled the audio drivers that came resident with the PC? (Realtek, Soundblaster, etc)

Have you tried uninstalling and then reinstalling the drivers/progs for:

The primary audio I/O
The VSTi's?
The sampler for the VSTi's? (Kontakt, etc)

Have you tried loading a regular commercial CD into the drive and playing it with Media Player?

After all of this, if you are still having problems, have you tried contacting the manufacturer of the primary audio I/O?

Hi DonnyThompson,

Its driving me crazy! If this helps I have just been told that its almost like its phasing. One minute the sounds and mixes can sound great. Next Day or even next few hours they sound rubbish.

It is pretty basic now Im going straight into the card with the tone generator and straight back out to a frequency analyser. Not using Cubase or anything.

I have another Raydat card in another system (nothing to do with the main system in anyway almost a sub studio) I just took the card out of the problematic system and put it in the 2nd system and it does sound clearer and shows a better Frequency response but still a loss above 10k.

- No i havent tried disabled in onboard audio. I shall try remove it as we Never use it.
- I have tried uninstalling all and reinstalling and ever installing it all on a New SSD drive

Yes tried a CD and its sounds ok still a bit dull but that could because of the age of the recording etc. I've tried it in Media Player, VLC and Itunes just incase

I have and am talking to RME at the moment. But they say "There is no way technically the Raydat could have an influence on a signal's frequency response. "

Cheers
Joe

Yes I think it is possible that something is going on with windows. Some audio card (realtech and others) install an effect deck with the drivers. If this effect software detect your other audio interfaces and apply it-self to signal, you need to uninstall or deactivate it. also try to deactivate any running software other than

Other theory; (a long shot I must say) did you check if you could have a phase problem? along the signal path if a wire is inverted, your monitors may cancel some frequencies.. or you might have a faulty wire (if you did not investigate that already)

In the hardwares, only the sound card can affect the sound (unless having latency problems) so it's either that, a software or some wiring or electric problem.

The folks at RME are correct - a digital path such as ADAT cannot alter the frequency response or other content of a signal as long as it is transmitted without errors. That's why I find it strange that your replacing the Raydat card with another identical one could make any audible or measurable difference.

The RME configuration software allows you to route signals from an input directly to an output of their equipment. You could try doing this, and then use the tone generators to perform a frequency response test from (say) a line input of a channel of your Soundcraft mixer via an ADAT direct out to an ADAT input of the Raydat board, and then out via ADAT to the input of a different channel of the Soundcraft mixer. You would have to make the mapping (e.g. from input 0 to output 1) in the configuration program.

Hi Boswell

I'm not replacing it with an identical one I took that card out and put it in another computer :) I do have 2 and they are both the same in the sense that if i put them in the Music Pc theres treble loss if it goes into the 2nd PC its a bit better but still frequency loss.

I have already tried that direct in and out from the adat and still the same :(

Many thanks
Joe

Ah, but have you tried the direct link between an ADAT input channel and an ADAT output channel in the RME Raydat board? Going via a DAW is not the same thing.

Also, my reading of what you have posted so far indicates you connected the ADAT out of the Raydat board to the ADAT input of the AIO board and then analog out from there. Again, that's not the same as taking the ADAT lightpipe to the Soundcraft and performing the conversion in the mixer. What I am suggesting you do is try out alternative routings for as many of your signal paths as you can in order to find out where the trouble lies. It doesn't help that the frequency response fall-off is intermittent, but my guess is that this is still a routing or configuration issue rather than something like a bad connection or cable.

Yeh I have done exactly that. Bypassed everything straight into the raydat routed out using the raydats own mixer software and back out :)

I have tried this: :)

- Tone Generator to Raydat in to raydat out to analyser
- Tone Generator to Raydat in to raydat AES out to AIO AES in to AIO Analogs out to analyser
- Tone Generator to AIO Adats in to AIO Adat out to analyser
- Tone Generator to AIO Adats in to AIO analog out to analyser

Is that what you meant?

Many thanks
Joe

That certainly seems comprehensive. Are you saying that you see identical roll-off in the octave above 10KHz in all the test signal routes you mentioned?

For my own interest, what models of analyser and tone generator do you have that have ADAT inputs and outputs? I make do with the internal oscillator in a Yamaha 01V96 for that sort of testing, but it's limited in what it can produce, so am interested to know of commercial alternatives.

Yes near enough exactly the same :( maybe like 1-2 db different

Sure its a Finalizer 96k its not actually just a Tone Generator but it has one built into it :) As for Analyser I'll have to get back to you on that one as I don't remember the name as it was brought out of "storage" because its hardly ever used lol. I'll see If I can get it for you :)

I also downloaded a great app on my phone for testing aswell:

Tone Generator: PA Tone
Spectrum Analyser: FrequenSee

Obviously plugs in via headphone to send out and I had a nexus hooked up via an Irig and it gave the same results as the pro unit in my case so could be handy :)

pcrecord

Hi PCRecord :)

I have tried what you said about removing the sound card drivers and disabled it. It didn't do anything which is a shame but what I did come across was that Windows had set the cards inputs and outputs to 16bit 48k when we are 24bit 48k. So I switched all those across to correct settings and it seems to of cleared up another problem we were having where some of the sounds were sounding muddy which is good.

I also went through a list of how to setup your computer on Steinbergs site and turned off Hyperthreading, power modes etc etc to see if that helps (It didn't sound wise but seems to be performing a little faster which is good)

Has anyone get any other ideas I could try at all?

Many thanks for all your help
Joe

Hi,

I've been doing some research over past few days. Tried different computer settings etc etc and came across and article that said about "RAM Timings" and "Voltage".

It said if the RAM timings or voltage aren't right that this can create bad sound quality. Is this true?

Many thanks
Joe

I never come across an audio problem created by memory timming or voltage. Usually, those are automaticly adjusted by the bios/efi of the motherboard.

Hope you find your solution soon..

jmd87, post: 413352, member: 36605 wrote: Hi,

I've been doing some research over past few days. Tried different computer settings etc etc and came across and article that said about "RAM Timings" and "Voltage".

It said if the RAM timings or voltage aren't right that this can create bad sound quality. Is this true?

Many thanks
Joe

Not "bad quality" in the sense of audio distortion, no. They could cause data errors which might show up as loud clicks in the audio, or the program could crash.

Hi,

Thanks for replies :)

I thought it maybe a bit of rubbish. I'm beginning to think it maybe the RME products tbh. I was having a proper think and we have a Mac pro that used to be a music computer... The audio sounded the same. We had a PC I built before the above one and audio was the same. So it all points to that. I need to see as stated in this topic if I can rent a high end card from somewhere but thing is I need 4adat in out and analog in out so not sure of a good card.

Any ideas?

Cheers
joe

Have a question for all of you :)

Are the VSTs frequency's correctly setup in the sense that the bass is in its correct frequency register and strings in there's etc etc or do the frequency's need to be setup and given there space ?

Cheers
Joe

I've buid 5 computers for recording over the last 15years. I had all kinds of problems, but I never had a computer not reproducing the frequencies correctly. I say it again, it's either a physical problem in the audio chain (converter or something) or a software problem.
You need to eliminate each step of the chain. One by one

jmd87, post: 413368, member: 36605 wrote: Hi,

Thanks for replies :)

I thought it maybe a bit of rubbish. I'm beginning to think it maybe the RME products tbh. I was having a proper think and we have a Mac pro that used to be a music computer... The audio sounded the same. We had a PC I built before the above one and audio was the same. So it all points to that. I need to see as stated in this topic if I can rent a high end card from somewhere but thing is I need 4adat in out and analog in out so not sure of a good card.

Any ideas?

Cheers
joe

I don't think you need to go quite that far. If your suspicion is that the RME is to blame, then simply uninstall the drivers for it, detach it from your system, and install a run of the mill audio I/O device. Load up some of the VSTi's you have, and if everything sounds good, then you have your culprit, even if it's not the actual physical card, it could be some kind of bug in the code/driver.

As far as VST's needing to be "set up"... beyond allocating memory (buffers, ram, etc) for the programs, you shouldn't have to do anything else in terms of EQ; setting up the samples to play back the way they were intended - they should play the way they were coded to sound. Of course you can tweak overall EQ for the way the instrument sits in the mix, but as far as playing back raw, they should sound fine without you having to adjust any particular parameter.

Now.... there are certain vst's that do require the use of a controller to adjust volume and attack. For example, Garritan's Personal Orchestra uses the mod wheel on a midi controller to adjust volume, and also, for the attack or "bite" of the brass patches.
But as far as the samples playing at factory default EQ, they play normally without any tweaking.