Let's face it, all of us at one time or another have heard a new artist on the radio or a video and wondered "Why the hell are they signed and I'm not? They suck!"
What's your take on this controversial and subjective subject?
Comments
Even though they suck, they also swallow. Me. I refuse to even come close to one of them things, unless it's mine.
I mean, have you ever met some of the people that get signed. Alot of them really are complete cocksuckers. And since most A&R people are guys, well. Everyone needs a good cocksucker now and then.
I honestly believe that equal to the problems already mentioned (not so subtly) here is the current state of music as a whole, wherein in the past 5-7 years we have seen the proliferation of DAW's and thus loop based, perfectly tuned music. The necessity in having the ability to play (or sing) a beautiful track on any instrument has been absolutely, positively, completely eliminated with today's technology. All this great stuff we use everyday (which don't get me wrong, when used correctly and in the right environments is indispensable) has directly contributed to the dumbing down of musicianship. That last snare hit was a little late? No problem, I'll just move it. A little soft? No problem, I'll just replace it with another. That long note you ran out of breath on? No problem, I'll just grab a good spot, stretch it out with some crossfades, and Auto-tune it. While these things get us out of a jam in the studio, we need to serioualy think about the role that we directly play (as engineers/producers) in the current direction of music. Is it easier to fix the problem ourselves with our tools than to coax just one more take out of someone in an effort to get it right?
And I have rambled.
All I'm saying is that technology has made it incredibly easier for anyone to sound marginally talented, not talented, but marginally talented. In some ways, engineers are now able to wield incredible power over arrangements and performances without ever saying a word or playing a note, but simply by using our tools. With those capabilities in place, A&R can now focus on image and attitude in their search, not musicianship.
Originally posted by Cycle 60:
A&R can now focus on image and attitude in their search, not musicianship.
Absolutly...even songs aren't enough...it's all about "the package" to get a deal today.
What's the MOST ironic to me, is that in the "old" days the that people were in charge of record companies didn't come from marketing backgrounds , they were "inneficient" they night say today...but they're indusrty grew. Today all the lawyers, MBA's and marketing hacks have there way...and where's the buisness now?
never in my life have i seen every gendre of music suck as bad as it does now.
pop: perfect autotuned crap that has no lyrical content anymore.
country: gone are the glory days of the late 70's outlaw movement. now its a bunch of prettyboys in white cowboy hats that sing the songs that the same handfull of nashville writers churn out daily(maybe thats whay it all sounds the same) :eek:
at least you used to could count on country music to deliver great lyrics. now country is basically pop (see above "pop" description.)
rock: 7 string guitars with scooped mids played by guys who can't even play 6 string guitars... wearing clown makeup no less (IDEA!!..get ahold of bozo the clown and ronald mcdonald, get ibanez to make some 8 string guitars and cut a record... it would be huge!..the time is right!)
R&B: this genre used to be called "soul"..i can see why they changed it. who in the hell came up with this new style of voice quivering that all the R&B has now? whoever it was should be hung by the neck until dead...or...make him listen to that shit for a few hours and he will hang himself.
Rap: dosen't most of this sound the same..or is it just me. all the filty language and extream subject matter had shock value back in the 80's but now its been done to death and then some. Also, does every song in almost every genre HAVE to have the obligatory rap passage?
blues: mostly new artists doing old classics and old artists doing old classics. does anybody write new blues songs besides me? I have been hearing blues tunes with "the obligatory rap passage" on the radio lately. that REALLY gives me the blues.
damn its time for something new to hit big...but...how can it when the powers to be want everything to sound the same.
im thru ranting now
Hear! Hear! and Harrumph! Can I get a Harrumph/ (That guy over there didn't give me a Harrumph!) Well said, and I couldn't agree more..... What gets me is I hear a song on the teevee and it sounds ok, then I go get the ceedee and put it on my stereo and it sounds like a dog drop! ("No Doubt" comes to mind) I think we should burn Tchad Blake in effigy! What he did to Bonnie Raitt is a sin!………. ........Fats
hi 60 cycle,
that is really cool...that your from mississippi too. the main thing thats going on in recording here is gospel singers paying big money to cut an album, and they have their background music already. when my studio is finished im going to try to get in on some of that money.
maleco records still rules the blues world. Alot of real good unsigned talent in mississippi...i don't think maleco would sign someone thats white...im not a rasist...just being honest.
I don't know if you know bill boutwell (used to sing with the band "sassy jones")..anyways, he said he would sing some of my original material for an album im working on. bill is the cream of the crop as far as vocalists go, so im exited about that.
great site you have here audiokid. i have learned alot reading posts.
thanks,
jimistone
I believe that there is WAY too much askew in the way the business works. Image is everything, you can polish up the artisst performance after they have left, so ok tracks sound dead on great, and half the time, the "talent" doesn't even know it and think,"Wow I was SOO on that day"
Psha,I agree, there is less and less of an emphisis on accually being creative and talented.
i on the other hand am a dreamer, I'd like to think there still may be a few artist out there who aren't "cocksuckers" somewhere.
Also the amount of artist out there who like to be on the other end, and take eway too much from the groupies. I think the "pop/rock" scene has grow very unprofessional, and frankly, embarrising in the way they conduct themselves at times.
Yeah I'd like to think that there are still some decent acts out there. My hopes, for my studio/label(when I'm through with training and it comes into being), is that it would evolve into a place with a positive atmosphere, haha, I'll have a big sign "No Cocksuckers allowed" just kidding.
But I owuld much rather have good talent on the other side of the mic so I owuldn't have to do as much sweetening behind the console.
Anyways I kinda completed my thoughts, even though I could probably write a 10 page essay on what it wrong with the way the system works and still barely scratch the surface
Peace and love y'all
Rob
This is a great thread, and btw, Fats, Harumph! Right now in the studio where I humbly play, we are recording an album for an 18 darling. Great girl, not-presumptuous or DIVA like and her voice is to die for!. I mean real pipes. We dont tweak or anything. The only thing I wish we didnt do for this album was give it all the normal ABBA meets Digital crap she feels she needs for the big companies.
Actually there is a piece of advice I could use here. Her mom wants me to represent her and promote her to the record companies, anyone have a ballbuster idea to get me through! Anything is helpful,
Chris
First, get a big pile of money!
Second, find a good entertainment lawyer (in New York, L.A. or Nashville) and give said stack of money to said laywer. If you are fortunate enough the laywer will actually do something for the money you gave them and get you connected to the record companies or publishers. If said laywer turns out to be a bust, get another big pile of money and another laywer. Repeat steps 1 & 2. That's it...or dumb stupid luck.....Fats...and Harrumph to the 3rd!
:w:
This is certainly one of my favorite topics! In a nutshell. what's going on is that radio is using music to select different demographic and lifestyle groups for advertisers rather than simply to entertain people.
In the past, when various genres were less fine-tuned, it required a higher quality of music and DJ to attract a broad enough audience to deliver advertisers the listeners they wanted. Today we have genre flavored background music driving the ratings with record sales having little relationship at all to what is played relative to the results of focus group tests.
Because radio no longer works for them, record labels are turning to other avenues of exposure, mostly television. They'll sign an ex-Mousketeer who can't sing in a minute because they haven't got a clue how to go about profitably marketing a great musician today. And don't kid yourself, most of the major label execs. DO know the difference.
The only answer will be the evolution of a whole new music industry from the grass roots up that does NOT depend on advertising-financed, Wall Street-owned media to build audiences. It's time for people to begin thinking WAY outside the box.
OK, here's a scary thought.
Fast forward 20 years. Today's kids are 30-somethings. And the ads for reminiscent compilations on TV? I don't even want to think about it.
Man, I HATE rap-rock. And I had a friend of mine the other day try to argue that his turn-tables are musical instruments. Give me a friggin break, not a break beat. Or whatever.
Y'know what kind of records they will be selling on the teevee in 20 years? The same stuff they're pushing now... 60' 70's & 80's classic rock! The "Golden Age" of rock n'roll! Because most of the stuff being promoted these days is CRAP! No one's going to want it in 20 years, but they'll still be buying Beatle records. And a turntable jockey is as much of "musician", as a kid who's cutting pictures out of a magazine and pasting them on paper, is an "artist"! All these guys sayin' "gotta have my music, know wut I mean?" Bull sh*t! It's not "your music", it's was played by someone else and you're just ripping it off and reusing it! Get a clue...better yet, learn to play a real instrument!..............Fats
Howdy
This is an excellent thread. I gig a lot with different groups and this subject often comes up. I'm with Cedar's last comment in that there are very few "future classics" being written today. Totally true with regard to MTV/Top-40 music. I can appreciate some of the production and certainly, some of the rap artists can tell quite a tale (Eminem, for example) once you get past the all the "motherfucker" instances but where are the _songs_?
Who will be the modern Duke Ellingtons, Buddy Hollys, Beatles, Stevie Wonders, EW&Fs, Led Zeppelins?
Do I daresay that perhaps we've explored pretty much every possible combination of notes? Are we doomed to derivative 12-tone music until our ears evolve to accept a different scale?
Bob's comment about radio stations catering their playlists to advertisers was very telling. I mean, it makes sense...dance music and hip hop are becoming "modern muzak" in more "mainstream" businesses. Not just "Urban Outfitters" but, these days, "Vons" or even, your local shopping mall.
I know it is not just me, I get off on the smooth jazz format. Fantastic productions, clean as it gets, dynamics and the lyrics are the cats on their axes.
Enter:
Bob James, (yep go back to the 70's they all are great)
Chuck Loeb.
Fattburger.
Fourplay. (a'la Bob James)
Mimi Fox. ( If you are not hip to loves me like a rock..I hate it for you).
Al J. and Kenny G is also classifyed with the greats..but really the above artists and productions are what keeps me in this game.
I do all kinds, had my share of Rap as well.
For super productions, Classical Live, Opera Live, Jazz Live and the above genre for studio is my bag..but then again, I will do armpit farts if it pays.
Do I daresay that perhaps we've explored pretty much every possible combination of notes? Are we doomed to derivative 12-tone music until our ears evolve to accept a different scale?
Look at the evolution of recent modern instuments. Fender and Gibson? F**k them. As a guitarist, I'm finally seeing tempered tuning systems(Buzz Feiten), better hardware, more versatile amps and speakers, de-mystification and the application of science thanks to Seymour Duncan and others(such as our own Stephen Paul).
Now if we could get the suck ass money driven A-holes out of the loop, there could be some hope. The internet and DAW's hold some promise there.
End rant.
Arabic scales have more notes than western scale……Fats
On the plane on my first trip to Morocco, '88 I think, I put the headphones on, and tuned-in to some of thier finest traditional music. The musical imagery took me there before the plane landed. Arabic scales are nice, I sure didn't mean otherwise.
But my opinion is stagnation, and the money driven way of life we lead, is to blame for mediocrity, not the derivitive twelve tone system.
[childishsingsang]Bill is a Kenny G fan!, Bill is a Kenny G fan!.. :D
I'm from Germany and supposedly should shut the f@ck up, with all this eurotrash and retorts/retards getting signed these days ;-)
What really drives me nuts is that promising bands get signed and then get "formed/formatted" by the record-company to fit their marketing habits. It's pure fear of A&Rs to establish new Sounds/Songs. They think for today's(last years/decades') trends although they had the power to establish new ones...speaking of Major's A&Rs.
When (German)HipHop/Rap got big over here, they signed everyone, without looking at the skills nor the potential (exceptions apply as usual)
Lots of acts come from the TV soap-scene - remember Kylie;-) No voice, but great view...and already "breaked"
So long, Niko
Hope I'm not too late for my 2 cents... I really feel the hope for music lies in independent music publishing coupled with the balls to do the music inside you. If you are feeling the song you wrote, you WILL connect with the listener. I'm convinced the "big time operators in the music business scene" (shameless Van Morrison quote)
have completely forgotten this altruism. My friends and I have not. We support local shows. We buy the CD's from the artist. We play out and bring 20 CD's we burned and mastered ourselves with us. Warner brothers gets to wipe my ass.
Just a few thoughts.
1. Beware of getting hung up on the concept of being independent. We're really all interdependent. Power does not come from owning and controlling everything we need but it is a nice illusion that sells a lot of gear. Power comes from sharing our resources, contacts and expertise, finding ways that the whole becomes more than just the sum of the parts. I don't think people are working together as much as they used to.
2. Music is a social experience. This is probably why CDs sold in stores remain a GROWING percentage of sales despite the Internet and the overall downturn.
3. there are no easy answers. I've never met another group of people as smart as those in the music business. Most of the obvious things to try HAVE BEEN tried. It's important that we address REAL problems and not waste time with mythical issues and solutions found in computer/internet industry press releases. They have a much larger "business model" problem than we do and tend to project that problem on us.
4. we seem to have lost the ability to sell music on its own merits. Its principal merit for our audiences has always been something social. Radio used to be a companion who turned us on to music that we all shared. It has become a servant of Madison Avenue's needs to isolate people for advertisers. This is the total opposite of why people buy music which is to share an experience of joy with each other.
Greetings Bob on the "day of infamy".
Your above writings.....
Lets pick at it some...
Your wrote..
1. Beware of getting hung up on the concept of being independent. We're really all interdependent. Power does not come from owning and controlling everything we need but it is a nice illusion that sells a lot of gear. Power comes from sharing our resources, contacts and expertise, finding ways that the whole becomes more than just the sum of the parts. I don't think people are working together as much as they used to.
I agree. Hopefully the model at RO can do these things. Created by musicians for musicians. Face it, it is seldom I meet an engineer that does not play, but many pickers have home recording gear and some of them actually prefer their work to some of the majors. I hear some darn good work coming from the project studios and I hope that all the effort here at RO has helped many musicians get a feel for better production quality. By no means does this or should this replace the professional environment. I feel that the days of 60,000 to 90,000 dollar studio bookings for a few weeks should have been over a long time ago, especially when some of the work I hear (musically, production wise, and engineer is sub par to what some of the "lowly projects studios" are starting to come to the table with. The productions I am hearing coming from 10,000 dollar studios in Europe are really nice productions and very close to top shelf. (Many in the US as well). I do not think the computer has replaced the engineer but here at RO I feel the integration of this community has helped the musician producer finer works through understanding the limits of the equipment and taking advice head on, trying it and agreeing that it is much better for them. This working together in this community is helping. Results are being heard. No one wants to put the majors out of business, but we would like for them to up the ann. some. No excuse in a major facility wasting 10 and hundreds of thousands of dollars for producing some of this crap on the radio.
I will admit, Nashville productions for a long time running, there are some stellar ones. I will not doubt this and it is getting better all the time. I take note that what does piss me off is to hear where a XXXXX mastering engineer got 17 grand to do a certain work and it sucked profusely, especially reissues. This is just not right. This cannot be allowed to go on. Somebody is getting a major override is the way I see it.
Next.
2. Music is a social experience. This is probably why CDs sold in stores remain a GROWING percentage of sales despite the Internet and the overall downturn.
This is a fact you will not see publicized by the industry. They have been crying foul ever since home reel to reel recorders could copy off the radio. You would think someone in the industry would have seen it coming and initiated a stopgap measure to hold down the level of piracy that is going on today. IF everything downloaded had a 1 dollar per 10 meg tab on it, and stayed at the same rate as downloading now, the music industry could pay off the national debt in tax revenues only within a couple of years. They may have know all along and are enjoying this free advertising that folks are paying the isp providers for. I will admit, their are now 54 Artists I regularly enjoy that had it not been for the web..I would never have known of at all. Most of them are Indies by the way. All of them have received some sort of financial (direct) support from yours truly. Someone will tell me about a group..I d load some material and then if I like it..I go buy it. Pretty simple concept..and yes, the industry is making a ton. Look at the movie industry!!
Number 3..
3. there are no easy answers. I've never met another group of people as smart as those in the music business. Most of the obvious things to try HAVE BEEN tried. It's important that we address REAL problems and not waste time with mythical issues and solutions found in computer/internet industry press releases. They have a much larger "business model" problem than we do and tend to project that problem on us
Yes yes...they blame the very hand that feeds them.
When d loading became widespread I was working "with" a major label as an independent contractor. The issue was laid on the table and I came up with a viable solution and seen it adopted (I am sure this was thought out long before I said anything) that it could go back to the isp's. Like your electric meter, you get charged for usage..Something like 6 cents a 100 meg. This would only kick in for downloading and storage. In turn you could only download to a remote server that you pay for storage..(like a locker) and not to the hard drive. You are billed accordingly. Like a mini warehouse, as you need more room your monthly rate goes up and the industry gets an override for storage that is of industry nature via a file extension that is special to itself. Cat out of the bag now and I personally can buy a 100GIG hard drive right now for 100 dollars and with CDR's going for 15 cents per..well it is too late. Only a few 10's of millions of computers in the world now with high speed connections and burners..go figure. I proposed this in 1997 once then in 1999..it was too late then..and the person I proposed it to had no real power of persuasion and doubt that he even understood a word I said..till this day.
Number 4
4. we seem to have lost the ability to sell music on its own merits. Its principal merit for our audiences has always been something social. Radio used to be a companion who turned us on to music that we all shared. It has become a servant of Madison Avenue's needs to isolate people for advertisers. This is the total opposite of why people buy music which is to share an experience of joy with each other.
Could it be opposites attract? You admitted before that sales are on the increase! I simply wish that I could find a way to see why it is that when us old schoolers look back at the youth..generation for generation, we see a decline in quality of manners and a dis-appreciation for their art they enjoy. I really do not think anything that we did in the 50's 60's or 70' and even some of the 80's was a rude or nasty that the stuff that surrounds MTV right now. It is low life with cash.
I am a stick in the mud, I did my share of rap productions from 90-00 and made a nice share of cash..and some of it I actually liked but it has gone totally in the gutter now...it was pretty bad then but at least I had real strings and real artists on the rap productions I worked with. Now you have "beat doctors" make 120 grand a track for something my Dog could punch up on an SR16 in 10 mins if I laided it on the floor and had her walk over it..
Sorry..I am just getting carried away again. I need to win the lotto. Then maybe I will "get it"
In 1995 BMG Brazil executive told me that they would not release my stuff because my english accent was not good enough to have north americans buying it.
However, I have seen lots of great albums sang not exactly at "native US accent" become hits.
They release what they want. Lots of garbage was released in Brazil this year, clones of Spice Girls, NSync, Britney Spears and so...
To me there is not much fun going to these shows. All you hear are the nice converters of thir Pro Tools rigs.
If law toke Milli Vanilli´s Gramy, why don´t they make a witch hunt with today´s tops artists?
I wanna see this girl Britney Spears sing at a real show. She cam here to Brazil a few years ago and it was a joke.
Tome the 70´s and the 80´s were great. what remained for the 90´s and early 00´s? Nirvana? Seattle stuff? Rap?
I can not understand how can someone buy and support such a trash like Eminem.
Well, it is a question of opinion and point of view.. :w:
ACB,
Things have changed in the USA considerably in the past 8 years. Latin music is very popular these days. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt to make another presentation to BMG. As far as the Millie Vanilli vs. Brittany Spears comment, the main difference is she sings her own stuff in the studio (if you want to call that singing). They didn't. It's not about lip syncing, almost all the dance acts do this. Very difficult to sing good and dance good at the same time. It just takes too much wind and stamina. Even Michael Jackson and Madonna do it. Your right, most modern music sucks. Shania Twain...her latest song, while I admit it's very catchy (I always stop and listen to it when it comes on the TeeVee), it really is a sucky song,…. The lyrics are stupid and it utilizes simplistic rhymes. An 8 year old could write "getcha" and "betcha"…."time" and "mine" "would" "could" and "good". The only thing missing is "self" and "shelf"!
"I'm gonna getcha , it's a matter of fact,
I'm gonna getcha, don't you worry 'bout that,
You betcha bottom dollar in time, your gonna be mine...."
And that ending line in the chorus; "Like I said I would, I'll getcha good...." What a clunker!
IMO this song / production proves that with Pro Tools it has finally become possible to polish a turd! ............. Fats
_____________________________________________
It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to ……
An 8 year old could write "getcha" and "betcha"…."time" and "mine" "would" "could" and "good". The only thing missing is "self" and "shelf"!
This is precisely the age group this stuff is written for.
At age 2 I was interested and played Acoustic Piano. How many youngsters have acoustic pianos in their parents homes today? In my day....all the folks I knew had a Piano in the house, upright or grand..their was a Piano, not a tinker toy keyboard with rap beats imbedded.
Imagine what we will say in 20 years of the new music. Turd would smell rosy compared to the vomit we will see. Imagine, spending time comparing the aroma of turds.....Hummm...it is natural anyway...
I think it is high time to hang at the college and university music programs more. At least there I get to talk to, record and arrange with real strings.
Stamina and Luck. They were a the right place at the right time AND they're there....meanig there were probably many-many-many-many(you get the idea,,,many) day's and night that they did not stop pushing and working to be heard...hoe ever much they "suck"...whereas you and I decided to go home earlier all theos many days.....