For live mixing I still live in the analog world, but digital is the future. I could replace most of my 200lb mixer-top FOH rack with a Yamaha 01V96, and get recall etc. I do like the directness of analog, the ability to see all the settings with one glance or go to a control without pushing buttons, but I'd give that up for the advantages of digital if the budget were there.

it all really depends upon the type of music, your audience and any other blah blah nonsense you have to deal with. Digital for live sound really makes perfect sense. Microphone inputs along with preamps down at this stage. Fiber or, ethernet to carry it all back up to your mixing position without having to break your back on heavy cables. Less loss in long bulky microphone snakes. I'm all for it for live applications. But I am an analog person by nature. And I still prefer the old-fashioned way of doing it. But that's what it comes to recording and not PA. And the PA style of gear makes even good sense for broadcast applications such as TV stations etc.

I like living in the past
Mx. Remy Ann David

I don't think it is a debate any more. Most touring shows and companies are supplying digital desks. There are a handful of guys still doing analog on the high-end, but those guys will be fewer and fewer because there just isn't anyone making large format consoles to replace Midas, etc, etc. The only companies making analog desks are making them for the entry and mid level markets.

In digital world there are lots of choices. Personally, even though I sell most of them, I don't like digital for myself. The convenience is undeniable. But the sound quality and reliability is just not there for me. We do service calls for analog on site. Almost all of the low to mid-level digitals cannot be serviced on sight or in the shop in some cases.

As with all things in this business, the amount of people that can afford to care about the music and integrity of the sound is dwindling. It is all about the money. I have been to several A list concerts recently and I am not hearing good mixes out of the systems there either, and these guys have considerable budgets. I will be glad when we can quit featuring the kick drum.

And those remote microphone preamps at the stage also need to have multiple outputs. So it's not just going to the main mixing position but can also be distributed to the " Remote Truck" that's doing the live mix for television or FM broadcast, perhaps simultaneous Internet streaming and let's not forget mobile on the go. That's so you can listen to it or watch it while trying to find a parking place since you got there late. Maybe one day we will figure out how to access the mantle directly so that we can make everybody on the planet hear what we want them to by creating direct vibrations from the mantle through to the crust under our feet and directly up our butts. NOW THAT'S SURROUND!

Ouch!
Mx. Remy Ann David

Digital provides many more tools for the money. It almost sounds good now or maybe we're used to it... I wouldn't buy an analog console now unless it was intended for total novices to use.

Live Sound Audio, post: 348814 wrote: Digital provides many more tools for the money. It almost sounds good now or maybe we're used to it... I wouldn't buy an analog console now unless it was intended for total novices to use.

And that's why people who are actually in the know still cut all of their tracks on those old vintage consoles. Such a beginner comment.. Really rather disappointing to hear that from an expert like yourself.

All I have is this danged old Neve board.
Mx. Remy Ann David

RemyRAD, post: 348900 wrote: And that's why people who are actually in the know still cut all of their tracks on those old vintage consoles. Such a beginner comment.. Really rather disappointing to hear that from an expert like yourself.

All I have is this danged old Neve board.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Never claimed to be an expert. Not to pick on you boss but I thought he was talking about live sound. Are you really using a Neve board for live sound? If so, that's serious dedication and I admire you for it!

--

I used a Neve for live sound in a fixed install about 20 years ago and it sounded very nice. Then they got a PM3 or PM4, whatever the number was so they could have more channels. I think they have an Avid Venue now.

I agree with Remy and Sheet! I prefer Analog to Digital in a heartbeat. It's the real deal, anyone with a good ear and class will tell you that. Digital 24 bit however is a wonderful format to record too / edit with. Its too hard to say what the future has in store, perhaps analog will keep working its way back into the modern recording studio as it is with the popularity of Out of the Box mixing now. I sure hope the younger generation will start to notice what the word dynamic means in recording music for enjoyment.

Ati

My dream was to get a Paragon for live, which I though was an amazing sounding console with gobs of control and dynamics on every channel. Great sound at less than the cost of Midas, etc. But when it came time to buy.... Here's what ATI Says on their web site:

"Founded in 1988 ATI designed and manufactured the highest quality live sound mixing consoles and audio processing equipment for pro audio use. Paragon P40's and second-generation Paragon II's dominated the live-touring scene for many years, until the eventual development of reliable and road-capable digital consoles became accepted for use and replacement."

There is no debate. End users and console manufacturers have already voted. Yamaha, Midas, Allen-Heath, you name it. All the new stuff and direction is digital. The control you can get even from a $3,500 digital board (like the Presonus StudioLive) would cost $30,000 for inexpensive analog counterparts and require 40 rack spaces of outboard gear in addition to the board.

But I'm still thinking about that Neve console for live events............ I did see a Trident console a few months ago for live sound. It sounded FANTASTIC!!! My gosh - the depth! Makes you think back. A real boat anchor but certainly something worth hearing.

A Neve for live sound? A Trident ? Are you talking about a remote truck? Neither one of those companies has made a "live" board...And the last time I was involved in the purchase of a Midas it was a Heritage 3000 (56) for $78K, with the Paragon (48) topping out at $110K...The Paragon was doomed right from the start due to it's enormous size.; people had trouble getting it through the loading docks!

jammster, post: 349190 wrote: I agree with Remy and Sheet! I prefer Analog to Digital in a heartbeat. It's the real deal, anyone with a good ear and class will tell you that. Digital 24 bit however is a wonderful format to record too / edit with. Its too hard to say what the future has in store, perhaps analog will keep working its way back into the modern recording studio as it is with the popularity of Out of the Box mixing now. I sure hope the younger generation will start to notice what the word dynamic means in recording music for enjoyment.

I'm with jammster all the way to the back. I seriously think analog is only going to become "better incorporated" into the digital realm. Both for live and studio. Analog and digital are merging very well.
Many of us here started in analog, then took the leap into digital blindness, then (gut churning OBG, what did I just do!) kept creeping into my heart as I kept hearing that dead sound of digital. We are really starting to rethink it all. After 10 years being all digital and thinking it was the real deal... screw that! Digital for mixing and editing but for smooth headroom, bla
analog gives you a more human space.... Why do we keep needing more and more bells and whistles with live music. A lot of what I need can be triggered via midi and on stage by the musicians. Isn't live really about capturing the band on stage? I'm over all that hype and heading back to the basics and rethinking it from a hybrid POV.

I'll tell you what I do fear, that speakers (especially live pro audio) will become re designed to compensate for all the digital brightness. It may force us to go 100% digital console for live. hmm, scary. The investment of both worlds may not be worth it. And I was planning on buying a new analog console this next year.

hmm

audiokid, post: 349243 wrote: I'll tell you what I do fear, that speakers (especially live pro audio) will become re designed to compensate for all the digital brightness. It may force us to go 100% digital console for live. hmm, scary. The investment of both worlds may not be worth it.

You think so? I think that instead of that, there will be digital system processors that will offer a menu option that says" "Source: Analog or Digital?", just like they do now to select a given speaker array model. Then you can fine tune THAT to the program material: "Rap? RnB? Pop? Techno? Country? Indie? House? Metal? Kenny G?" OMG, it's like they set these systems up so that an idiot could run them! That's the REAL beauty of digital boards... LOL!!!!

I miss my PM3K :(

Big

moonbaby, post: 349239 wrote: A Neve for live sound? A Trident ? Are you talking about a remote truck? Neither one of those companies has made a "live" board...And the last time I was involved in the purchase of a Midas it was a Heritage 3000 (56) for $78K, with the Paragon (48) topping out at $110K...The Paragon was doomed right from the start due to it's enormous size.; people had trouble getting it through the loading docks!

The Neve was an install. The Trident was used for touring. But I thought this thread was about someone asking about live sound consoles. I won't say my Avid sounds like the Trident because it does not although I really like how it sounds.

its been a while and apologies for that.....
Im still analog (haven't been swayed yet)
i was mixing at my local church with the LS9 and the whole time i was just thinking i wish i could have my Yamaha MG32 haha
the LS9 just seems empty without all the control settings... think ill be staying in the analog world for a while =)

LS9s are horrible. Bad ergonomics + bad sound. Don't judge all digital desks on the basis of these rather dated and low budget models.

A Vi6 is a totally different matter: they sound great and are a pleasure to use.

Speaking as someone who regularly mixes live sound on both types of console; the one inherent disadvantage to digital desks is that you have to use your eyes more. On an analog board you can glance down at the desk to find the relevant pot, and then twist it by feel while watching the stage. In digital I find I need to watch a screen or a ring of LEDs as I tweak, so I spend more time with my eyes down.

90% of the time the conveniences of full recall / soft patching etc. far outweight this small disadvantage, for me anyway.

Very nice. Here's an overview of The Vi1:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.soundcra…"]Soundcraft - [Support][/]="http://www.soundcra…"]Soundcraft - [Support][/]

Just gets better from here.

audiokid, post: 352914 wrote: Very nice. Here's an overview of The Vi1:
[="http://www.soundcraft.com/support/videos.aspx?c=6&vid=90"]Soundcraft - [Support][/]="http://www.soundcra…"]Soundcraft - [Support][/]

Thanks, I hadn't seen that one. Their Si range also looks interesting at the more budget end, but I've not tried one yet:
[[url=http://="http://www.soundcra…"]Soundcraft - [Products][/]="http://www.soundcra…"]Soundcraft - [Products][/]

I did get to try one of the new Digico SD9s recently, which I believe are also priced very competitively. I just mixed a festival set so didn't get deep into patching or anything, but first impressions were very good. (dynamic EQ on every channel if you want it! :tongue:)
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.digico.b…"]New DiGiCo SD9[/]="http://www.digico.b…"]New DiGiCo SD9[/]

Man that is a sweet looking compact console. It looks about the size of my old Yamaha 03D but about $23,000 more in justifiable value. Beautiful.

Thanks for sharing this Dan!

IIRs, post: 352879 wrote:

A Vi6 is a totally different matter: they sound great and are a pleasure to use.

OMG Vi6 [insert massive love heart here] haha i love them! although ive never actually used one (being in Tasmania im pretty sure there wouldnt be one around here) but they just look like a work of art!

question can u get a desk that acts like an analog desk but uses Cat5 or optical etc for the stage box/ inputs?

Digital all the way for me.

jonesy, post: 353275 wrote:
question can u get a desk that acts like an analog desk but uses Cat5 or optical etc for the stage box/ inputs?

I don't think so, at least not in the sense of one knob / fader per function. One of the main advantages / selling points of digital over analog is the reduced footprint for the equivalent processing: a digital desk that worked exactly like an analog board would need to be the same phisical size as its analog equivalent, and presumably would still need outboard processing patching in as well...

There is also the question of the functionality you would be losing. After all, even an analog board has design compromises: all the aux sends would ideally be on faders instead of knobs for example, but then you would need arms 8 feet long to operate them! With a digital board you can re-use the main set of faders to control an aux send mix, which is much better for mixing monitors than doing it all with knobs IMO.

The Digico desks and the Soundcraft Si range use touchscreens with a representation of each channel strip: touch the EQ or the dynamics for a particular channel to drop the parameters on to physical knobs under the screen. It doesn't take too long to adapt to a setup like this in my experience.

I actually recorded some rock 'n roll party festivals where I provided the mix for the PA system while tracking. It was certainly easier with my Sphere Eclipse C than it was with my NBC-TV Neve which is a much simpler console. But yeah, I also engineered PA sound for the outdoor Strathmore Summer Music Festival in Rockville Maryland from the control room of my truck. Strangely enough, while I received wonderful response to the sound, some folks were upset that I wasn't in the same space as they were? How can I possibly mix PA from a control room? I indicated that while setting up a PA system, I would frequently put on a couple of my favorite reference CDs. I would indicate that I simply am mixing for a CD and then putting it through the PA system. I mean some people like the way PA sound, sounds. I like the way recordings sound. So it makes sense to make a live recording fed through the PA system. Feedback? Good mixing, proper set up prevents most feedback issues. That and a couple of 1/3 octave graphic equalizers. Speaker placement like microphone placement is extremely important. So often most PA issues are because people don't know where to put the speakers. We're not talking about major venue shows but the average outdoor festival. I don't do major venue PA. Never wanted to. I'm not going to. You can't make me! IT'S TOO LOUD!

I like my hearing intact so I'm in the control room, in fact.
Mx. Remy Ann David

See Now I would call myself a bit of a "beginner" BUT I as I get further along and getting to know more about recording, I find the best advice comes from someone who's voice is not so opionated. Personally I would love to throw learn both methods as so when it comes down to it I can jump on any studios console and know what i'm doing.

You'll have to pry my cold dead hands from my analog Midas consoles.

Where as you could possibly get a digital from me pretty easily.

moresound, post: 363096 wrote: You'll have to pry my cold dead hands from my analog Midas consoles.

If it's a Venice you can keep it.

What's wrong with the Venice? I've used one on multiple occasions and actually found it to be quite a nice portable desk. The EQ's are musical and quite usable. A pleasant quality of sound & ample headroom. I really didn't find anything I didn't like about the Venice. What? Only pure digital will do? Microphone preamps aren't digital even if they include built-in converters. It's a great bang for the buck.

Usable EQ. What could be bad?
Mx. Remy Ann David

RemyRAD, post: 363357 wrote: What could be bad?

No phase reverse! Bad choice for a live desk IMO: flipping the phase can sometimes work like a magic feedback killer. And having to bodge a phase reverse cable just to mic a snare top and bottom..? No thanks, I'll take the Vi6 please.

And you know something? I forgot about that. I remember I had issue with that as well. I've got to have my channel strip phase invert switch. And on more than just the microphone preamp. But it's unfortunately true of a lot of budget PA boards. I guess all the new digital boards offer it, yeah. Thanks.

Some companies just aren't fazed
Mx. Remy Ann David

Yeah. Its a shame really as I like them otherwise.

A real Midas would be a different matter of course.

But honestly, the practical advantages of digital are hard to ignore. eg: I toured round Australia with a festival line-up of about 12 bands. We all got one soundcheck before the first show, which covered the entire tour: each subsequent venue had the same type of desk with our show files loaded and ready to go, plus the same type of line array set up by the same hire company. They weren't the same ones: some of the venues were a 4 hour plane journey apart! But they didn't need to be, them just emailed over show files after each gig.

So, I'm not a big fan of D-Show desks. Yes, a Heritage would probably sound better, and be more fun to mix on. But given a choice between soundchecking again for every show, and days off on the beach? I'll take the digital again please. ;)