Hi I work in a recording studio. Each time I record and mix a drum, I find myself spending more brain energy figuring out hout to make the drums sound as good as a sampler track without having too much hi-hat in the mix. This is sad. Drummers sound better and play better then computers, but the hi-hat bleed issue makes many producers and engineers think twice about going through the trouble of recording drums for a project. Sometimes the recorded drums dont sound as good as the drum machine track in the mix, the reason being hi-hat bleed in the snare drum. If we lived in a world without hi-hat bleed, I guess drummers would be working more in studio gigs. Does what I say make sense?
Comments
[quote=DrGonz, post: 396715]I remember in the movie Pump Up the
[quote=DrGonz, post: 396715]I remember in the movie Pump Up the Volume the high school (Hubert Humphrey High) had the acronym HHH. So, did Christian Slater (the Pirate Radio host) and his alter-ego pirate radio name was Happy Harry Hard-on!
Yeah, ya can't make good drum recordings with microphones all ov
Yeah, ya can't make good drum recordings with microphones all over the place LOL.
Actually I heard his new device. It's interesting. It's intriguing. I think it will probably appeal to a lot of folks? While I can appreciate his efforts in creating this helpful drum recording tool, I have been accomplishing the same thing myself since the 1970s utilizing downward expansion and gates that also offer a sidechain input. So what it does is really not new. It may be a new way of accomplishing the same thing either electronically or acoustically? And it might be simpler for a lot of folks? Anything that adds convenience is always good. Especially when it accomplishes a desired function. Time is money after all. And anything that saves you time, your clients will appreciate especially if you're charging them by the hour LOL. Of course that convenience will cost you going in and coming out. So why make anything more convenient for an audio engineer if you're charging by the hour? I want your product to make me less money? And there's the rub. Now if your client asks for that device? That's a whole different ballgame. I can't tell you how many times people have asked me if I had ProTools. And now maybe I'll start getting phone calls asking me if I have Hi-Hat-Haters? Oh no... not again? Something else I'll have to buy now...?
Couldn't I just hate the cowbell instead?
Mx. Remy Ann David
Yeah... that trial and error stuff... That's the art behind the
Yeah... that trial and error stuff... That's the art behind the science. And what makes this business so cool and... artistic. I mean if everything were perfect, where would the challenge be? Where would the art be if it took no effort?
So looking forward to hearing more examples of your new gizmo.
Mx. Remy Ann David
Flame suit on and engaged as the newbie of the forum gives his o
Flame suit on and engaged as the newbie of the forum gives his opinion... ;)
I think that maybe the issue is that more people are trying to get live drums to sound as isolated as possible, with each drum as discreet as possible. It may be that it's the result of so many samples and drum libraries available, that the idea of the full, live kit has gotten lost, to some degree.
As a studio drummer - and an engineer - I've tried to get the best drum sound I can over the years, and what I've found is that if you have a well tuned kit, with good cymbals, a decent room, good mics and a good drummer, it's not as hard as some make it to be.
The one thing I don't do is to direct mic the hi hat - instead, I use a coincidental stereo array for overheads, and I let them pick up the hat in the mix. The result is very silky, not at all harsh, with enough presence to drive the mix.
The other thing I don't do is gate the hell out of each and every drum. A drum kit has a particular sound as a whole - the way the snare may rattle a bit when the kick is hit, or the pleasant overtones that a well tuned kit can have, and I think many of these things are being pulled out of the mix - or at least some guys are trying to pull these things out of the mix in the quest for an isolated "sampled" sound.
Live drums should be live. Let them breathe, use a little gain reduction to tame your transients, but not overly so, avoid huge and wide panning schemes, rely more on your overheads, and get the sound of the kit as you would hear the sound of the whole kit, if you were listening to them live.
In my humble opinion of course...
Thanks for sharing you views. You are probably doing the right t
Thanks for sharing you views. You are probably doing the right thing, you probably get great results in studio, I won"t argur with you. But, take 30 secs and type "hi-hat bleed" in google. You will see about a gazillion threads and articles about hi-hat bleed problems. Why do you think this is the case?
i think it's because there's a lot of people recording (a gazill
i think it's because there's a lot of people recording (a gazillion perhaps?) who don't know what they are doing. you'll probably sell a sh*t load of the HHH's. tha doesn't mean it's something that is really needed. there's a lot of stuff being marketed that's not necessary.
Kurt Foster, post: 397181 wrote: i think it's because there's a
Kurt Foster, post: 397181 wrote: i think it's because there's a lot of people recording (a gazillion perhaps?) who don't know what they are doing. you'll probably sell a sh*t load of the HHH's. tha doesn't mean it's something that is really needed. there's a lot of stuff being marketed that's not necessary.
I understand, I stand with the ones that write in these forums. This thing started out as a means to help me.. If I can enough to make a second income out of it, I'll be happy :)
Kurt Foster, post: 397185 wrote: so why did you start this threa
Kurt Foster, post: 397185 wrote: so why did you start this thread? was it to ask a question about how to deal with hat spill or was the intent to promote your invention? genuine question or SPAM?
smells like SPAM to me and "I don't like SPAM!"
you are a bitter old man.
bitter, I hope not too late dude. it seems like you are bitte
bitter, I hope not
too late dude. it seems like you are bitter about something ..... lol.
first you call me "arrogant", then you call me "big headed", all unprovoked. it seems you enjoy calling people names and pointing fingers. reminds me of someone i have heard of .....
if you don't like my opinions you don't have to read my posts. there's an ignore function you know.
the op should have posted this in the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"]New Products[/]="http://recording.or…"]New Products[/] section in the first place or at the least, posted the intention of his posts at the top of the thread. that way some of us could have saved our efforts. i know i wouldn't have bothered.
i don't care for someone leading me down the garden path only to learn later they are trying to sell me something.
Kurt Foster, post: 397185 wrote: so why did you start this threa
Kurt Foster, post: 397185 wrote: so why did you start this thread? was it to ask a question about how to deal with hat spill or was the intent to promote your invention? genuine question or SPAM?
smells like SPAM to me and "I don't like SPAM!"
Kurt, My initial goal was not to make publicity, for God's sake, I don't even have a product to market yet. I'm not eve sure if this project will even develope into something real. I'm just sizing up what the demand is. Please be a little indulgent with me. I'm there with my little thread trying to convince myself to go ahead with my project through the opinions of folks who might use it (or not). That's all man. I mean, even if you might not need the thing, aren't you not the least bit interested by the subject? Maybe I'm just naive in thinking that this isn'r totally a waist of time to everybody.
Kurt Foster, post: 397190 wrote: too late dude. considering our
Kurt Foster, post: 397190 wrote: too late dude. considering our recent history it seems like you are bitter about something ..... lol.
the op should have posted this in the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"]New Products[/]="http://recording.or…"]New Products[/] section in the first place.
i don't care for someone leading me down the garden path only to learn later they are trying to sell me something.
i'm not bitter. i just have a problem with people thinking they know everything and people who think that age means wisdom. that's all.
what do you think of people who have 40 plus years in the busine
what do you think of people who have 40 plus years in the business who have made recordings that have been released by labels like Demon , Cleopatra and JSP to name a few. someone who owns his home and is retired at 58 all from music related activities? How about someone who owned and operated a PROFESSIONAL studio for 10 years in a major market? do you think that just maybe that person might have some "wisdom creds"?
have you ever received a check from a record company?
now what do you say we stop dragging this thead off topic with the personal attacks... ?
I'm sorry I'll quit the thread then, guess it was a bad idea. Go
I'm sorry I'll quit the thread then, guess it was a bad idea. Good luck all of you guys in you recording projects and your career. The business of recording is a cool one but it's a tough one, and I hope everybody find his place of happiness, and if not, that they will find an easy way out. My little gizmo is sort of my way out I hope it flies. I love you all for the dedication and immense work you probably put into your dream of making music and sound. Wish you all the best!
Well if I was you and I'm not, I'd keep pursuing this, what you'
Well if I was you and I'm not, I'd keep pursuing this, what you're doing. I think it's quite valid.
Doesn't matter, if I would choose not to use it myself.
I heard this device work and it does largely do as it was designed to do. So why's everybody flaming about it? Why does anybody use those cool metal screen and pantyhose pop filters? So ya guys need to have a beer or smoke a joint or something?
I'm well ahead of y'all. Because... IT'S SATURDAY NIGHT... LIVE! And I'm Don Pardo.
Mx. Remy Ann David
Kurt Foster, post: 397193 wrote: have you ever received a check
Kurt Foster, post: 397193 wrote: have you ever received a check from a record company?
It's in the post... sorry, the person who you arranged that with doesn't work here anymore, you have to ring the other accounting office... no we never recieved the invoice, can you send it again? ... we pay on 90 days... it's in the post...
Up front and / or on delivery. With any company, big or small.
RemyRAD, post: 397197 wrote: Well if I was you and I'm not, I'd keep pursuing this, what you're doing. I think it's quite valid.
Sure, ways to eliminate hihat bleed are a welcome addition to the arsenal. In many ways I think that an acoustic/mechanical gadget could be just as valid in a live sound application. I wouldn't recommend you sell your house/car/soul to put it into tool & die production and fill up a warehouse with 100,000 of 'em, but if you can make them in small batches, great. If you can sell the concept to a mic, or for that matter drum company who already have distributors, better still. I don't have any idea what this device is you're talking about, mind you, so it's all quite hypothetical.
However, to make the thread non-boring and relevant, why not post some soundcloud links out in the open to the resulting effect on a snare drum mic ... extra marks for half-open hihats and a drummer belting the kit with 2B sticks and adding ghost notes.
I applaud anyone who strives to make the recording process bette
I applaud anyone who strives to make the recording process better. There was a time when engineers wore white lab coats and the management at certain studios forbade the engineers from recording past 0 db...
Think of all the recordings to tape that hit that magic +3db sweet spot and the warmth and silk that resulted, because one guy, instead of saying "okay"...said "but what if "?...
New ideas come up with new processes and tools....and tools are good to have if for no other reason than they provide us a choice of what to use for particular scenarios. We might not always use them, or use them at all, but they're nice to have around if you want them.
Keep working on your idea. ;)
IMHO, of course.
New tools are always welcome. Why shouldn't we accept new techno
New tools are always welcome. Why shouldn't we accept new technologies that make life easier?
So keep up the work. If it works as you claim it does it will find it's place in the recording industry.
Btw, sorry for interrupting your thread zblip2.
Just one more thing to make my point clear.
Kurt Foster, post: 397193 wrote: what do you think of people who have 40 plus years in the business who have made recordings that have been released by labels like Demon , Cleopatra and JSP to name a few. someone who owns his home and is retired at 58 all from music related activities? How about someone who owned and operated a PROFESSIONAL studio for 10 years in a major market? do you think that just maybe that person might have some "wisdom creds"?
That is good for you.
I do respect experience and I do respect age. But age alone doesn't necessarily deserve respect. It has to be earned. And someone who is disrespectful against others won't get any from me.
I'm sure you know what you are doing (your posted recordings sound good for the type of music and the time they were made). But age and experience don't give you the right to bash other people or their work.
Kurt Foster, post: 397193 wrote:
have you ever received a check from a record company?
Actually I did!
https://itunes.apple.com/gr/album/agapi-anekpliroti/id291609189
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.youtube…"]MORAL -[/]="http://www.youtube…"]MORAL -[/]
Not only did I write the complete music for this album, I've also played all the instruments (except for the lead guitars), recorded and mixed it.
After having the songs mixed by two "experienced" engineers my mixes were used in the end. Though I could do better now...
Anyway, I'm not an engineer and I've never claimed to be. I am just a musician who wants to record his own music. And forums like this have helped me so much in getting better at what I do.
I don't do this for a living. I do this for fun in my spare time between my full time job as an art director, my cover band and the time I spend with my fiancée and family. Which leaves only a few hours a week for this.
Kurt Foster, post: 397193 wrote:
now what do you say we stop dragging this thead off topic with the personal attacks... ?
Now that is a good idea! Finally we agree. ;-)
RemyRAD, post: 397197 wrote: Well if I was you and I'm not, I'd
RemyRAD, post: 397197 wrote: Well if I was you and I'm not, I'd keep pursuing this, what you're doing. I think it's quite valid.
Doesn't matter, if I would choose not to use it myself.
I heard this device work and it does largely do as it was designed to do. So why's everybody flaming about it? Why does anybody use those cool metal screen and pantyhose pop filters? So ya guys need to have a beer or smoke a joint or something?
I'm well ahead of y'all. Because... IT'S SATURDAY NIGHT... LIVE! And I'm Don Pardo.
Mx. Remy Ann David
RemyRad, you're great :)
As for Kurt, man, I respect you a lot and I'm sure you got some good reasons to be a bit bitter about stuff. It is my opinion that we are all in the same boat, all trying to make a living in this crazy world of sound and music and production etc. I go to bed at night wondering if I'll have enough energy to attack big progects anymore, wishing I was doing an easier job, trying not to think too much about the fact that I didn't put enough money aside for my soon to be old days etc.. That's the price some pay for doing a job that's looks so fun to do. Just remember that we are in some ways brothers ans sisters. That goes also for the younger ones reading this.
In the city where I live there was a recording studio that was competing against the one I work for. One day it closed down. Normally we should have all been happy like the studio owner was, but in reality, it was a sad moment. The reason being that the crew who worked there, though we didn't know them, probably were nice people, passionate about there jobs, probably just as competent as our team, guys that if they wern't working for the competition would have been our friends. They didn't have a job anymore.
Society pushes us to compete against each other. We are sort of like gladiators, in every branch of work, not just sound. It may be comforting to look at others and imagine that they don't know what they are talking about, because in our childish sense of suvival we hope that they don't know what they're talking about. It makes us feel better. I see it all the time on forums like this one. It is an illusion. The fact is, a lot of people really know what they are talking about and a good part of them don't hang out in forums like this one cause they dont have the time for it.
Let me finish with a quote I heard, I don't know if it is from Gandi or Boudah or who ever. It basically sais:
If, when you meet someone, a part of you is wondering if this persone is superior or inferior to you, you are missing the point about life.
Up to not so long ago, I was missing the point.
zblip2 i do not want you to stop posting on this topic. .... i
zblip2
i do not want you to stop posting on this topic. .... it would have been better if you had said up front you were attempting to publicize your new idea.
i also do not mean to say that there will be no takers for your idea ... i'm sure you can get a lot of interest. after all there's a lot of money being made selling mo pads, reflexion screens, monster wire behringer processors etc .... there's tons of crap out there selling.
Kurt Foster wrote:
have you ever received a check from a record company?
bishopdante wrote: It's in the post... sorry, the person who you arranged that with doesn't work here anymore, you have to ring the other accounting office... no we never recieved the invoice, can you send it again? ... we pay on 90 days... it's in the post...
Up front and / or on delivery. With any company, big or small.
so in short, "no?"
Perhaps you need to deal with more reputable companies? Demon Records sent me a $20,000 cheque for the Brownie McGhee record i produced. i had been sitting on the masters for a few years re mixing and marketing them my efforts were finally rewarded. i am happy to say i paid his estate more money (over half) than Brownie ever made for any record he had done while he was alive. Another large chunk went to the band that played on the record with Brownie. all in all a very satisfying project. the cd is still available on Amazon.com
Cleopatra Records also handed over a big check for recording Nik Turner at "The Great American Music Hall" in SF ... The CD and DVD are (Nik Turner Space Ritual) are still available on Amazon.com. that one was paid the night of the gig. btw i didn't mix that one, i only tracked it.
everyone else;
and i really do hate it when it gets so personal and then i am forced to chortle on about my track record ... it really is unseemly imo. so let's just get off the personal attacks (i didn't start it and i only defend myself and do not attack others). if we keep the threads on topic and we will all be a lot happier. i am entitled to my opinions and i also have the right to express my self .... isn't that what art is all about? if you don't like my opinions the is an ignore function.
Kurt Foster, post: 396102, member: 7836 wrote: i love live drums
Kurt Foster, post: 396102, member: 7836 wrote: i love live drums and there's nothing better than a great drummer but you have to understand there's something wrong with a person who wants to spend a large portion of their lives hitting things. these are damaged people, these drummers. the fact that they are damaged is proven by their willingness to hang around with musicians.
A Kurt classic! :LOL:
Here is more tags on. http://recording.org/tags/bleed/
Kurt Foster, post: 396102, member: 7836 wrote: the best studio d
Kurt Foster, post: 396102, member: 7836 wrote: the best studio drummers learn to dig into the snare and toms while playing the cymbals softer. they "mix" themselves. they set the toms flat and low for a better stick attack, put the cymbals up way high to minimize spill as much as possible and place the hat as far as possible from the snare and the kick to minimize spill. a drummer like this can be gated or downward expanded and compressed for more punch with less spill issues.
This ^^ is how the only studio drummer I know does it. He even phrases it the same, that he "mixes himself." It is a little funny to watch as the kit is set up strangely. But that's how he does it, and he is bloody fast once the recording is down. He doesn't need to do a lot with the tracks after.
About the spill, or which sounds better....I dunno. If the spill was that big a problem wouldn't studio guys be using the $10k electronic sets? It's samples, played in real time? Maybe they are, I don't know.
I have a set of Roland TD-11's which are enough for me, as I only dabble in drums. But it's a fairly different sound than live. A real drum set, the whole kit has sort of a resonance and decay to it when someone is rocking them. Sounds are bouncing off each other left and right (pun intended). Just the "air" of live drums is different.
From seeing someone do what KF described above, the drummer is essentially moving things around so that he gets as little bleed as possible. It looks a bit silly to play, but I don't think this guy knows how to hit out of time. So it's mostly the immediate sound that's recorded, but there is still an air to it that's just different.
Kurt Foster, post: 396102, member: 7836 wrote: but you have to understand there's something wrong with a person who wants to spend a large portion of their lives hitting things. these are damaged people, these drummers. the fact that they are damaged is proven by their willingness to hang around with musicians.
lol, ain't that the truth. Look at Animal from The Muppets. Not a well adjusted muppet...to say the least. He doesn't even have a real name! Chains himself by the neck to the kit...
Someday I'll be as good as Animal.
I remember in the movie Pump Up the Volume the high school (Hube
I remember in the movie Pump Up the Volume the high school (Hubert Humphrey High) had the acronym HHH. So, did Christian Slater (the Pirate Radio host) and his alter-ego pirate radio name was Happy Harry Hard-on!!