Well, my answer is the Royer SF 12 , 24 or 24v with out a doubt, they are awesome for this. And if you need to reach in for some special area's, do it with what ya got and call it a day. Time align if you use additional spot mics other than the SF. If we were close, I would lend you mine.

DPA's are incredible ( 4011 or 4006). Mojave MA 100's, love em.

PS

I also use those Audix micro's They are pretty cool.

The SF12, is already tagged for drum OH's because this space is just too wide, for how much front to back space I have to work with. Narrow Diaz with 4 rows for the choir ->knee wall ->landing, and then the steps... I won't get good enough coverage to handle parts of the choir that will likely be needing some balance.

And this is gonna be loud.

Just to give you an idea how loud... There's 32 tracks w/o the choir mics.

What makes the most sense is spot/area micing, and then hoping I can get enough signal (sans drums, bass, two keyboards and a big brown swirly box) to distinguish the choir from. So, directionality of pattern warrants a cardioid or hyper cardioid.

I'm used to choirs in the 24-36 voice range. The SF12 or R84/2247 in a M/S does a fine job and then augment with M101's or C3000's in a worst case.

The SF12 just won't give me the security of knowing I have the ability to balance the SATB separately.

Real challenges are what make this fun.

MA100's would be nice, but I just don't see being able to afford 4 right now.

If I were closer you could use my R101 pair as well as my SF12. Is Cucco close enough to you to borrow/rent from him? What is your target date?

The NT5's are really quite decent and reasonably universally useful. If you are going to have that much else going on and can't get top end gear they will do you right IMO.

John,

Thanx for the input!

Cucco's not too far up the road... maybe 3 hours?

Date of the sessions is 10/19-10/20.

Hey Max. Do I understand you want to buy if you can because the rentals are slim to none? I dont know what the @Boss's budget will allow but you can get pairs of At4041's for a bit under $500. They are a flat and very directional mic. Good for your purpose here as they only give you back what you put in.

If not, give Jeremy a call.

Also dont overlook the ability of the "olde standard" SM57 for the alto and tenor sections. As spot mics anyways.........Good preamps make em work real well....surprisingly.

For this particular remote, I'm needing about 8 SDC's.

It's not quite the situation that rentals are slim to none as much as local rental choices are very narrow... primarily KSM137's and just a couple of SM81's.

I'm willing to buy 2-4 SDC's, depending on price, as I could use em' in the arsenal. (My 2 existing C1000's are nominal quality at best.)

I could possibly purchase 4 of the e614's (if they're decent enough) or 4 of the KSM137's, AT4041's NT5's, etc., and then rent 4 more KSM137's. (The local production company that I would rent from, also has a separate sales company with Rode, Senn, Shure, AKG dealerships. So getting product isn't the real issue.)

Because of the deal I can get on them, I wonner if the e614's are worth a damn, and if they'll possibly work and play well with others... If they suck, then why bother, right?

Also, I've been contacted off list by some GREAT members here, with offers to rent/borrow a few of their SDC's to help out. Which just shows the GREAT community that this place is!

Again, I've usually been able to handle my choirs with great results w/o using SDC's and rarely find that a need for one in the studio... But, I'm still real familiar with them in live audio, but have never needed to explore using them in a mixed manufacturer environment.

Common sense says that in some cases, it's gonna be a huge difference.

I really think you would LOVE the AT4041's. Every time I shoot mine out against others of this ilk I get more impressed. The only pair that has a bit more mojo for my ear has been the KM184's and that comes from that "Neumann sheen" that has no logical explanation other than "Its there". The AT's have a real good output, and are fairly sensitive as well a being accurate in what they reproduce. So no noise in a distant micing situation like a spot mic on choirs. Hmmmmm? !

The AT4051 is the same mic with detachable capsules. These are my favorite in the AT line honestly.

I'm sure you could get a good deal on a quantity of 3 Zigma CHI SD mics. They are quite nice. Call Greg at Pro Audio Toys or Warren at Zen Pro Audio.

Max, sent you a PM.

OK, update time...

I asked the client to PLEASE contact me at least 2 weeks before the session to confirm, so I could deal with mic rental/procurement.

I finally got the confirmation call 5 days ago... Monday.... far too late to take advantage of the generosity of any of the guys who kindly offered to let me borrow any mic's... and way too late to get any rentals mic's.

I ended up buying 4 of the Sennheiser e614 SDC's. It's all I could do... and actually, they're good enough for this session's application.

As a side note, this is one of those situations that I really should have paid attention to my "spidey senses"... that this was going to literally be a pain in the back.

The band is top notch, the choir is really good, and the "12 voice" praise team is excellent... however... nothing as far as infrastructure in the sanctuary is worth using, and really should all be ripped out and redone. (hum, buzz and dead connections)

Thankfully, I had the foresight to take my 24x8 Medusa with me, in addition to "Big Red", my small 56 channel 3 way splitter. This session ended up using close to 70 mic cables and 8 turnaround's to make it all work.... yeeesh.

I would have taken "The Blue Beast", the W4 (48x8) w/2x300', 1x50' trunks and 3x25' tails, but they didn't have the budget for me to hire one assistant, much less two for the load-in/out. The Blue Beast box weighs in at well over 500 pounds, and probably closer to 600 or more... and I don't take it unless I'm paid to have assistants or they have hands.

I thought we were tight on inputs, but managed to get it down to 36 planned channels. But the music director added 4 more unplanned lines, taking the session to 40 channels... then last night at the end of the session, they decided to add ONE MORE track! (grrrrrrrrrrr)

So, when I get there this afternoon, I get to add the extra channel, delete all the 2nd HD24 song lists and make them 24 track songs instead of 16 track songs... plus deal with a KB player who uses a line mixer for all of his KB modules, but doesn't have them balanced out as far as gain structure... requiring me to do the gain level dance on the kb/synth sends... in addition to the other 29 mic's I've gotta keep an eye on.

Yup... remotes are easy work...

Ahhh, the old "Since you're here already, could we get.......etc......etc....etc...." Uh-huh. I feel yer pain my friend.

You know what happens when you pull a rabbit out of your hat to satisfy those last minute whims for your client, right? (that they expect you to do as if by magic)

They hire you again.

And the next time, they will just assume you can produce 3 rabbits.

and a mountain goat.

and a tin of Dapper Dan pomade.

and one pearl onion.

and a mating pair of wolverines.

and a 9v battery.

and some sort of ice sculpture.

How much longer until you're ready for us to soundcheck?

" Hey Moose, Rocko, help the Judge find his wallet......"

DD, that's TOO funny!!

The end result was that we got the session tracked and everything went well.

An excellent performance is always the key to a good recording. Next step is to recuperate from the physical abuse I put the ol' body through, then to transfer the tracks off the HD24's and into a coupla' SloStools sessions.

are'nt 1's valid at all club gigs?

Another update, and probably the last one.

Listening to the e614's after a LOOOOONG day of transfers (OVER 88Gb of wav's, btw), they don't sound all that bad... pretty darn decent, actually.

The directionality is pretty good with a very respectable amount of noise, and the gain from them is surprisingly good for such an inexpensive mic. The frequency response is quite good, albeit obviously a bit thin in the low end... which actually made this a fine choice for the application as a choir mic.

The e614 is not a Schoeps, DPA or anything close to a high end SDC or super cardioid, but in comparison to the average $300-$500 SDC, it certainly holds it own and certainly exceeded my expectations.

I wish I had the time to take photo's during the session to show their placement, but alas, when you're solo humpin' a big session like this, you're happy just to get everything set up and working. Maybe someone took photo's and I can post them up to show how they were placed.

All in all, I would definitely recommend the Sennheiser e614 for anyone looking for a modestly priced SDC for a similar application. I have a couple of other sessions coming up where I will give them a try on things like ride cymbal, horns and mandolin... but I'll definitely keep these in the mic locker for choirs, hihat and the like!

I got a chance to play around with a pair of these recently. They are actually a pretty darn good mic. As a mic in that budget it works as well as the AT4041's which to me are the epitome of budget SDC's. I've had a pair of those for a while now and do get the opportunity to try others (its nice knowing and recording guys from the stores.....!) The 4041's have never failed to give a lasting impression and even beating out mics twice their price. The 614's are also in the realm of reality.

Its good to see you survived your session.

For the past 20 years I've tried to make my living having that same kind of fun. I would've just hung up a couple of SM57's. They sound great on choirs. Especially when you want to get the choir. I don't know why people think they are not professional enough? Aren't you already using good preamps? So noise can't be that big a factor. No bigger than the extra wash of junk from the rumble and the hiss of the HVAC you get to pick up in great detail with condenser microphones and especially the small ones. So like you said those cheap SDC didn't sound all that bad. And of course they didn't sound all that good either did they? 57's do.

Try it you'll like it. Really, honest.
Mx. Remy Ann David

The problem with 57's is that they were already being used... ALL of em' I own!

So, the decision to add a few SDC's to the mic locker was based on knowing a reasonable quality mic would be a worthwhile purchase decision.

The assumption that the e614's didn't sound all that good, by the comment that they didn't sound all that bad, is a little bit of a skew... in that while they sounded fine, they weren't the same quality of say a Schoeps... but then again, neither is an SM57... right?

Actually no. It's not better when it doesn't get you what you want even though you are aiming it at what you want. Because it's getting other stuff you actually don't want. Really, honestly, seriously. You're not taking into account the physical surroundings, acoustics and background interference. And a 57 going into a fine preamp sounds every bit as good as anybody's condenser thingies. What you deem to be better is of course it's beautiful broadband clarity known from those wonderful microphones we all love. Again though it's called the right tool for the job. Many of these location recordings can be incredibly difficult to capture well regardless of how good the acoustical environment may be. I'm not thinking out of the box here. This is just solid engineering. Of course in the studio, under well-controlled conditions, we would use the best junk we have. That doesn't mean that we wouldn't be using those beautiful German condenser microphones in other viable placements. As say closer up highlight microphones or solo microphones. But when you're dealing with some distance and still desire a tight capture window, these stupid dynamics for 100 lousy dollars as one out for me on many occasions throughout the years. And I've had to teach this to other teachers that are teaching audio to others. I know this seems hard to quantify. Electro-Voice RE-15/11'S have also worked out nicely. Sometimes you actually want those bandwidth limited less sensitive microphones to actually improve your quality. The quality of the Mix Max. And the greater control it provides. And as a professional, I'm never embarrassed about any of the professional tools I choose to use. Because it's not how much you spent or how it looks. In the end, it's how it sounds. And when ya choose microphones that already have a certain type of beneficial equalization built right into them, they actually end up highlighting what you want. There are plenty of us, back from the old days that frequently had mixers with no equalizer them. Such as an old Neil Munsey SSI box, with 8 microphone inputs, eight volume controls and eight pan pots. (Melcor 1731's a.k.a. API 2520's) Then everything came down to your selection and placement. Besides back then, we didn't have cheap affordable condenser microphones worth a damn. Yeah so, smoke 'em if you got 'em. Like I've also always said, good engineers do make great recordings with anything in front of them. Of course as you indicated, all of your 57's were being used on other stuff. And sometimes it's just plain impractical to swap your microphone selections once everything is set up. And we've all had to deal with those kinds of sessions. And that's actually when you make the BEST of it and what you do.

Better is only better when it's better for the proper application. And we all know that to be true.
Mx. Remy Ann David

RemyRAD, post: 395585 wrote: Actually no. It's not better when it doesn't get you what you want even though you are aiming it at what you want. Because it's getting other stuff you actually don't want. Really, honestly, seriously. You're not taking into account the physical surroundings, acoustics and background interference. And a 57 going into a fine preamp sounds every bit as good as anybody's condenser thingies. What you deem to be better is of course it's beautiful broadband clarity known from those wonderful microphones we all love. Again though it's called the right tool for the job. Many of these location recordings can be incredibly difficult to capture well regardless of how good the acoustical environment may be. I'm not thinking out of the box here. This is just solid engineering. Of course in the studio, under well-controlled conditions, we would use the best junk we have. That doesn't mean that we wouldn't be using those beautiful German condenser microphones in other viable placements. As say closer up highlight microphones or solo microphones. But when you're dealing with some distance and still desire a tight capture window, these stupid dynamics for 100 lousy dollars as one out for me on many occasions throughout the years. And I've had to teach this to other teachers that are teaching audio to others. I know this seems hard to quantify. Electro-Voice RE-15/11'S have also worked out nicely. Sometimes you actually want those bandwidth limited less sensitive microphones to actually improve your quality. The quality of the Mix Max. And the greater control it provides. And as a professional, I'm never embarrassed about any of the professional tools I choose to use. Because it's not how much you spent or how it looks. In the end, it's how it sounds. And when ya choose microphones that already have a certain type of beneficial equalization built right into them, they actually end up highlighting what you want. There are plenty of us, back from the old days that frequently had mixers with no equalizer them. Such as an old Neil Munsey SSI box, with 8 microphone inputs, eight volume controls and eight pan pots. (Melcor 1731's a.k.a. API 2520's) Then everything came down to your selection and placement. Besides back then, we didn't have cheap affordable condenser microphones worth a damn. Yeah so, smoke 'em if you got 'em. Like I've also always said, good engineers do make great recordings with anything in front of them. Of course as you indicated, all of your 57's were being used on other stuff. And sometimes it's just plain impractical to swap your microphone selections once everything is set up. And we've all had to deal with those kinds of sessions. And that's actually when you make the BEST of it and what you do.

Better is only better when it's better for the proper application. And we all know that to be true.
Mx. Remy Ann David

You know what Remy,

Its taken about 100 posts of you talking about SM58's to get it. And I think you just nailed it for me on this last one. I bet a few or more dynamic mic's and a Bricasti would sound superior to most detailed condenser in the majority of live halls. Most public rooms are far from perfect and that is precisely why 57's/ 58's have been the best mic going all these years.

I need to do some experimenting now. What goes around comes around.

And for the most part, I agree Remy...

I've only been at remotes just shy of 20 years, and I'm always willing to try an old dog for a new trick, or a new dog for an old trick.

As I originally stated, I was originally looking to come up with a viable solution to cover a 4 row, 60 voice choir, that covered approximately a 65-70 foot wide dias. To get a solid blend of the voices in the SATB, 4-8 SDC's would be a much more economical approach than trying to cover that same space with 12-18 SM57's, M/S, Blumeline, XY, ORTF DECCA Tree, or Jecklin Disc arrangement.

Again reffering my original post(s), the choir is an enhancment section of this recording, and the primary focus would be on the 14 voice praise ensemble and 4 lead vocalists. So, going to any great lengths to capture the choir any better than the primary vocals, while probably an admirable venture, would have yielded far less happy of a client, as their primary focus was the ensemble... and not the choir.

But in the long run, these few years I've been doing remote and live mixing... yes, 200% of what you get, is what you do with what you got.

I still wanna snag a few more SM57's from someone for a coupla' weeks and actually do what a few have threatened to do... and that's to make an entire album with a handfull of SM57's. I s'pose I could mix my SM58's in there, but I'm sure someone would whine that the minor differences between the two would "disqualify" it from the "purity police" angle.

Yeah and I bet your new Bricasti would add a lovely ambient cloud. I heard that last example you posted. And it provides for a fabulous depth.

I probably wouldn't be suggesting the 57/58's from back in the days of analog tape? But digital has changed everything and quite a bit in how we do things today. You'd miss that edge from the condenser microphones back in the days of analog tape if you only used 57 & 58's. But hey, I was still making nice recordings with those RE-10/11's into a nice custom tube mixer and into my REVOX A-77. And these were operatic and orchestral recordings, churches, musicals, etc.. I just think too much emphasis is placed upon capacitor/condenser microphones? Ribbons can also provide many similar benefits. And why frequently I'll be hanging them for a choir. Of course the extra edge I get from the API 3124's is quite airy sounding.

In the strange happenstance in a recording I did for a Los Angeles record label, in New Zealand, where I had schlepped my microphones and API 3124's, I accepted a compromise. A New Zealand label was simultaneously making a recording in the same cathedral after hour sessions. They didn't like my multiple microphones set up but their producer did. they had an AMEK BC-1 portable mixer. I found it much darker sounding than my API's. So instead of putting the ribbon microphone on the Wagnerian soprano as had been my intentions, she ended up on a 414. Then I got a similar flavor to what I would have gotten with the ribbon and the API's.

Given that those little SDC worked, simply says you know what you're doing. Bravo. If the equipment works? You're golden.

And I got a Grammy nomination for a recording I didn't consider to be my best.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Holy Toledo, 12 to 18 57's would be a lot. I had know idea you'd need that many! I've never used them for anything other than close proximity. But I'm eager to still try this for something now.

Remy, you just posted before I saw you here. I totally agree with you "I probably wouldn't be suggesting the 57/58's from back in the days of analog tape".
Today we have extreme clarity and its time to rethink a lot of old ways. I think you are onto something here. I often dislike the sound of condensers ( well I do love my Royers and :). Seems nothing that a serious graph (pultec ) can't do to get some air during the mix.

Have you used 57's on a choir like this before Remy? What is the range rule on these? One mic per 6ft x what?
Maybe not SM57's but another dynamic /brand is worth researching? Interesting to say the least.

John, have you ever used 57's for choirs?

I've used my Beyer M101 omni's quite extensively... and LOVE em' in XY... or stick an M110 up with one M101 for M/S.

On one smaller 16 voice choir in a nice small rural AME church, I used em' as a spaced array and was very happy with what I got.

So, dynamics on a choir ain't foreign to me, anyway.

I've found that SM57/SM58's tend to only be good for about 4 voices wide, in fairly close proximity (no more than 36"-ish) for live work in a largish room. So, I would think for tracking, you should be able to at least get 4 feet-ish and up to about 8 voices in two rows... and maybe 9 voices in 3 rows... if you could get the mic centered over that grouping.

Am I at all close, Remy?

[edit]

Just to be clear... this recording was NOT operatic, orchestral or requiring (nor wanting) much, if any "air"... what was wanted was "the choir"... mass voices. Think Chicago Mas Choir/Mississippi Mass Choir;

(as an example)... but add a 14 voice praise team in front of the choir!

Remembering that I was already tight at 41 tracks, and adding more than 6 more tacks would have run out of HD24 tracks.

I have used 57's on choir. They aren't my first choice for classical but work pretty well for gospel or a swing choir. When I used dynamic mic's though, I tend to use passive ribbons. The Royer 101's used in a "spaced pair" provide an outstanding sound field from about twelve feet back and seven feet tall angled down a bit. A coincident pair works best for something like the Swingle Singers or Manhattan Transfer.

Yeah that's basically what I'm talking about. And I'm usually running the 57's in a spaced configuration (similar to Omni's) hung up pointing down towards the floor. About 6/8 feet above their heads. Sometimes I've used up to 12 for three groups of four. Hanging them and shooting towards the floor eliminates that extra ambient bounce from the back and side walls that the other instruments also contribute to. And yeah, this works particularly well for gospel since most gospel is a little more rock 'n roll oriented. But it still works well for a Verdi Requiem and that got me an Emmy nomination for an NBC Television Christmas show. It was all going through the Neve console that I now own in studio A, NBC-TV Washington DC. And those had to be hung from the lighting grid and the the producer and director requested not to see any microphones at all! And you don't see any of the 13 microphones that were in use, anywhere. Some more Sennheiser M. KE-2's lavalier's used as highlight microphones on woodwinds, cello's, taped to the shaft of their music stands. AKG 451's hidden in a couple of onstage decorative plants near the solo singers on their long black capsule extension tubes. So I'd say that mix was rather organic LMAO. And thankfully, unlike the other control rooms, this one had a Lexicon PCM 70. So even though this was the largest television studio in Washington DC, it still needed some of that concert hall style reverberation since the set was designed to look a little bit like a cathedral in the opening shot. And they wanted that cathedral like sound. And that Emmy nomination got me my first DUI on the way home. So I actually lost twice that evening on the night of the Emmy awards show. My production lost to a piece of canned music for a sports show. The NBC group of folks was really shocked when that happened especially me. The other nomination for best audio went to a production from the folks from Galudet University which is a University for people who are stoned deaf. Or maybe just deaf? Obviously I was the one that was the other thing? Then it was I who told the NBC group of friends that we shouldn't drive home after the production was over. Especially since we had been imbibing on the free alcohol. So I gave everybody sobriety tests just like the police would have. We didn't leave until we could all pass the sobriety tests. Which was about 3 1/2 hours later after the production was over. Unfortunately when I got stopped even though I passed the sobriety test, I didn't pass the breathalyzer. I blew a legal limit and was arrested! So I'll never submit to doing their stupid little dance routine again. After passing the sobriety test the police officer said " before I let you go, I'd like you to blow into this...". Because I had passed his sobriety test. You know standing on one leg and touching your nose with both of your index fingers stuff?

There won't be a next time. I learned how to lose twice in that evening. LOL it really wasn't funny.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Even a nomination for an Emmy would be sweet, Kudo's.

Seems like a lot of work, cable and channels plus overlaps and dead spots yes? I like this idea for backup singers in a band, maybe small choirs and ideally where everyone can't deny something has to be done to overcome terrible acoustics or bleed.

I was originally considering hanging the Sennheiser MKE 2's over the choir but even those tiny black cords could be seen on camera. So I pulled those out and stuck up the 57's from about 16 feet over their heads. Hanging only inches below the lighting grid. It was like a 200 voice choir on bleachers and it worked out quite nicely. The main floor microphones over the orchestra were a pair of KM 86's in an ORTF configuration with a couple of Outrigger KM-84's. Those other highlight microphones with the lavalier's and a pair of 451's on the soloists. And it was either 13 or 14 inputs? I forget? Memory is failing along with my career. I guess they are going hand-in-hand these days? Great. And as I recall, the only equalization used was just some high pass filtering on the Neve. I was also bumping up some of the low-end on things like those cello highlight lavalier's, along with some high pass filtering. Woodwind section not so much so. There was plenty of air there.

I look forward to hearing how your efforts turn out when you use some 57's on choral and symphonic productions? You'll laugh when you hear how good they sound. You know most things that you use those microphones on always sound good. I think they are one of the most longest lived and most enduring microphones ever made. My god where can you get quality like that for $100 anymore today? 57, 58's I don't care both the same. Don't like the big metal ball? Give it a s-e-x change and unscrew it. Voilà! Instant 57, no waiting. It's crazy how good these microphones sound into Primo preamps.

I had actually wanted to use some ribbon microphones on that NBC-TV, Verdi Requiem. Unfortunately, a few years earlier, they threw out a whole box full of RCA 77 DX's. I just cringe when I think about that. I think that happened on one of my days off otherwise I would have been in the dumpster for sure. It makes me sick just to think about that. And this is how I find most engineering trends go. What was bad yesterday is now highly sought after today. I never missed a beat when it came to ribbon microphones, all the way back to when I was 15.

I've been intrigued by those Royer ribbons ever since they came out. I think given the opportunity to own a pair, I'd still go with the original passive units. That tube version was wild sounding and almost like a condenser microphone OMG. And I actually really like that tube version over their transistor version, active ribbon microphones. I actually asked them whether they built their microphone with any influence from the B&O ribbon? They said it was their inspiration.

Funny enough that so many of you guys here love AT condenser microphones but I really haven't heard anybody talk about either of their two new ribbons? What up?

I love this website. Thank you thank you thank you.
Mx. Remy Ann David