Drew B, post: 413429, member: 47977 wrote: Good Evening All and Hi from the UK

HELP!!!

First of all may i say thanks for looking at this thread and any information shared will be greatly received.

I came across this website after purchasing Mr Gervais excellent book and before i decided to post a new thread i searched after some info i required but couldn't seem to find what i'm looking for so here goes. Get yourself a strong coffee before reading on.

GOALS

To construct a combination room for music production, mixing/mastering and dj mixes ideally to a good soundproof and acoustic standard.

BUDGET

Looking to spend around £2500 - maybe more depending on the improvement.

HOW LOUD

Ideally looking up to around 100db but only have the capability to do this as i won't be able to produce/mix/master at this level for a long enough time.

DETAIL

• The room will be constructed inside a single brick garage, this has an apex roof which is supported by beams and on top of the beams the space is used for storage.

• The front half of the garage will be used for storage and gym equipment and the rear half for the studio.

• The garage door is a metal up and over door which cannot be bricked up or removed due to planning issues.

• The flooring is a solid concrete base

• The size of the room for the studio before any construction begins.

• Width 284cm (9'4")
• Length 281cm (9'2")
• Height to beams 231cm (7'7")

THE QUESTIONS

• I know one of the main issues I'll have to deal with is the garage door so looking at building a double wall with a considerable air gap but any other ideas will be appreciated.

• I've been looking into soundproofing for a while now and there is so much information out but for me Its a choice between a room within a room or using resilient channels and genie clips system.

• I'm also contemplating using 1 or 2inch celotex on the walls which is a foil backed insulation straight on the walls prior to the build just to keep the heat in the garage.

Room In A Room

• I understand building a room within a room decouples the build from the main structure so roughly how much of an air gap would you leave.

• I have planned on using 100mm rockwool, is this too much also i know it sounds silly as its all new to me but if you place the rockwool between the stud wall then what stops it falling out the rear into the gap between the room and structure. Do you have to place anything like strapping.

Resilient Channel System

• This seems a really good idea due to the amount of space it saves. This will be used also on the ceiling and to do this I will need to create a stud wall and fill between the studs with [="http://www.ikoustic.co.uk/Rock_Wool_Slab_50mm_x_455mm_x_1200mm_20_per_Bail/p857925_4327603.aspx"]acoustic mineral wool [/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]acoustic mineral wool [/]and insulate the studs against the wall with [[url=http://="http://www.ikoustic…"]isolation strips [/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]isolation strips [/]to stop vibration from traveling through the timber studs or build away from the main structure to create an air gap. This version also uses our [="http://www.ikoustic.co.uk/product/genie_clip"]Genie Clips [/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]Genie Clips [/]with [[url=http://="http://www.ikoustic…"]Resiliant bars[/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]Resiliant bars[/] and adds a layer of [="http://www.ikoustic.co.uk/Barrier_Mat_4mm/p857925_3898472.aspx"]4[/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]4[/][[url=http://="http://www.ikoustic…"]mm Mute Barrier mat [/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]mm Mute Barrier mat [/]between two standard plaster boards for extra sound insulation.
• 

• The downsides with this are firstly cost compared to room in a room. If you build the room against the main structure wall and the rockwool goes against this then surely it will get damp.
• Another thing I don't quite understand why you also build it away from the main structure with an air gap as surely the rubber genie clips also decouple the walls.

I know there is alot here so any information to say which do you think would work the best or any previous experience using these would be of great help.

Ventilation

Just a quick question do you have to use air con in an air tight studio?? Can the below be used with just a standard heater during cold spells.

I'm asking for alot here and hopefuly with all the experience and knowledge on this forum some of the questions will be asked.

Thanks again

Drew.

Do I need to include anymore information, there have been alot of views but no replies - not even bad ones!!

I'm looking to start this in the next month or so and really stuck upto this point.

Many Thanks

Drew

What you are asking for is very specialized. Those of us who haven't chimed in aren't intentionally ignoring you, Drew... it's just that this forum has professionals in many different aspects of audio; mixing, tracking, computers, mastering, etc., and because we are professionals in certain specific areas, we respect you - and the acoustics experts here - enough to not just comment for the sake of commenting. No one wants to lead you astray with bad advice. ;)

There are a few people on this forum who do know about this stuff, and some who are experts... (I'm not one of them) and perhaps they haven't commented simply because they haven't seen your post yet.

as you're in the uk - there's an ancient sound on sound topic that covers some of the pitfalls - it's from 1995! When I was building one in a college on a very tight budget. http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/apr95/schoolstudio.html

Since then, I've not made these mistakes again - and they're very easy ones to do!

The key feature is mass - so when space is tight, my cladding now has plasterboard/insulation board and MDF layers. I've also standardised on the MDF as the inside layer laid horizontally - with the joints disguised by timber strip. Another strip, a 13A socket spaced is then added mainly because it looks nice.

Your biggest problem is the ceiling because plasterboard and MDF weighs quite a bit, and in a garage, you can't get above to seal it properly - so I now produce the ceiling in pre-made panels - usually 1.2m wide. You can make sure these are properly sealed to prevent air gaps, then you pop them up from underneath, and use tube adhesive on the edges. Then I finish the last MDF layer off from inside, secure the plasterboard overlaps the top plates. I work from home, and had my own garage here extended to 3 times the original length, and the up and over door give access to a bit of storage space, then I have two rooms. A drum kit playing full tilt can just be heard late at night when it's silent outside, but at a really low level - nothing anyone would ever notice. If you are a modest DIY'er it's easy to do - but you do need an inner room within the room. Coupling to the brick structure in any way is bad news!

Thanks for your reply Donny Air(y)

Yeah I understand that the info i'm after is specialized and not everyone may have an idea what i'm waffling on about but most of all i know you are all very busy in what you do.

I hope you don't think it came across the wrong way. I just wrote the previous message incase i missed off some vital info as i know if all the required details are not there then its hard for people to give an honest answer.

Thanks again

Drew

No not at all... You need to bump your own posts here once in awhile because there are always so many new threads and topics popping up. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has read your post... it's just that those of us who have expertise in other areas of audio aren't going to lead you astray - or disrespect the other acoustics experts here - by posting something that we aren't knowledgeable in, or taking a "guess". ;)

The posts are coming too quick now!

You will need a method to get stale air out. 200mm ducting and duct fans on the exhaust works - BUT you need to build a labyrinth lined with either acoustic foam or loft insulation to stop sound getting in or out. This saps the efficiency, so a 100mm duct has to run at full speed and makes too much noise.

In my own studios here what did concern me was fire. Sound proof studios are great, but they stop you smelling smoke too, and I can't hear my burglar alarm if the doors are shut. As my escape route is through one room, into the next, and then to a corridor - the prospect of a fire in the corridor did worry me - so in the end room, the wall separating the studio from the up and over door is build a little differently. An entire stud is missing, and there is just one horizontal noggin at 1.2m. The studs are 600mm centred, so I have a weak area. This area also has just plasterboard/insulation board/plasterboard layers (12mm). The mockup I did allowed me that I can kick through it fairly easily - giving me an exit route. The studio is for my own use, and I rarely have strangers, so I can work with this. If I was having regular clients in, then a proper fire exit door on the inner and out shell would do, but is another of those compromises.

The biggest sound leakage problem comes from cables puncturing panels - and don't even think of piercing the ceiling for downlighters!

Thank you very much Paulears(y)

Yeah i can't keep up with all the info now. The article will make some good reading and the advice will helps load - can't believe you did all that in 10weeks!!

I haven't really though about MDF, i've heard it mentioned before but never gave it a second thought.

I was hoping the acoustic vents would do the trick but realistically i need some sort of circulation for the air.

I haven't really thought about a fire as its just me and possibly someone else, as for sound leakage for lighting/electrical what would you recommend. I was going to run electrics in some plastic conduit and for lighting was just going to seal any holes with acoustic sealant!

Drew

DonnyThompson, post: 413724, member: 46114 wrote: No not at all... You need to bump your own posts here once in awhile because there are always so many new threads and topics popping up. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has read your post... it's just that those of us who have expertise in other areas of audio aren't going to lead you astray - or disrespect the other acoustics experts here - by posting something that we aren't knowledgeable in, or taking a "guess". ;)

Its a bit cheeky but I'll have to remember to bump ;), thanks for the advice and all the best.(y)

paulears, post: 413722, member: 47782 wrote: as you're in the uk - there's an ancient sound on sound topic that covers some of the pitfalls - it's from 1995! When I was building one in a college on a very tight budget. http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/apr95/schoolstudio.html

Since then, I've not made these mistakes again - and they're very easy ones to do!

The key feature is mass - so when space is tight, my cladding now has plasterboard/insulation board and MDF layers. I've also standardised on the MDF as the inside layer laid horizontally - with the joints disguised by timber strip. Another strip, a 13A socket spaced is then added mainly because it looks nice.

Your biggest problem is the ceiling because plasterboard and MDF weighs quite a bit, and in a garage, you can't get above to seal it properly - so I now produce the ceiling in pre-made panels - usually 1.2m wide. You can make sure these are properly sealed to prevent air gaps, then you pop them up from underneath, and use tube adhesive on the edges. Then I finish the last MDF layer off from inside, secure the plasterboard overlaps the top plates. I work from home, and had my own garage here extended to 3 times the original length, and the up and over door give access to a bit of storage space, then I have two rooms. A drum kit playing full tilt can just be heard late at night when it's silent outside, but at a really low level - nothing anyone would ever notice. If you are a modest DIY'er it's easy to do - but you do need an inner room within the room. Coupling to the brick structure in any way is bad news!

Coupling to the brick structure in any way is bad news - This is what i thought and thats what confuses me (along with pretty much everything else)

The resilient bar with the genie clip system decouplers the stud wall away from the main structure to stop vibration passing through. This system can be used either using rubber isolation strips which would attach to the studs and then between the studs and main brick structure or create an air gap/room in a room and use this setup.... but surely you are decoupling the walls twice by building an air gap/room in a room and genie clip system!?!?!?!?

paulears, post: 413726, member: 47782 wrote: The posts are coming too quick now!

The mockup I did allowed me that I can kick through it fairly easily - giving me an exit route. The studio is for my own use, and I rarely have strangers, so I can work with this. If I was having regular clients in, then a proper fire exit door on the inner and out shell would do, but is another of those compromises.

I'm pretty sure that if you were in business - in the "open to the public commercial" sense - where you had a steady and regular traffic of clientele, you would very likely have to meet certain criteria anyway, and provide those things you mentioned to meet the regional construction and fire codes. Of course, this would depend on your regional zoning and commercial codes.

I know that in the past ten years, here where I live in the Akron, Ohio area, all new construction for commercial use structures larger than 1200 sq. ft must provide fire walls to separate certain sections of the structure, unless the structure is constructed as one big room. If you have an existing structure, built before the code came into play, then you aren't breaking any laws, but your insurance premiums will be much higher than those structures that do have these in place.

Back when I had my real studio, as the construction crew was busting out walls in the warehouse I had rented, I had them put doorways in that were wide enough to accommodate wheelchairs, and I also had a ramp built on to a rear entrance door.
I knew that there was a regional code that would have stipulated that I do this anyway, but truthfully, I didn't mind, just because it was the right thing to do. When you have family members who are disabled and getting around with wheelchairs, you're more sensitive to these things than you might otherwise be. ;)

The resilient rubber in itself offers some decoupling, but there remains a physical connection. I've not used these myself, but I can see the speed and simplicity. My reason for not wishing to try it out are that you are left with the problem of what to do with the ceiling. With a stud work construction, you are presented with a flat top - even if you have cut the size down to 50mm rather 75mm that is strong enough to support a heavy roof - which needs to be just as good as the walls! The soundproofing in the diagram relies on a fill of sealant as the only barrier and it's nowhere near enough! Since my first one in 1995, I've done 8 in total, and each one has been better than the last, but often with less overall materials and mass. I learned that there is no point in having excellent walls with a poorly performing roof, or windows, or rubbish doors.

I'm not a proper carpenter, so have discovered lots of ways to get around my poor carpentry - as in discovering proper heavy fire doors without panels work really well as a sound barrier - if you make a perfect seal - and fitting a door to a 'hole' is nowhere near close enough to work, unless you are brilliant at measuring and cutting. My trick, that I use every time now is to attach the fire door to the vertical part of the door frame on the hinge side, and then the bottom, top and closing side are put in afterwards, to make sure the gaps are small all around and precisely the same. I then fit neoprene to the closing strips and fix them in place with the door closed. That way you can compress the foam, make the seal and it fits perfectly. A real carpenter wouldn't need to do it this way - there would be planing and trimming, then they'd fit the door!

A few more tips - MDF can be sanded and painted easily, but it takes a while for the smell (the formaldehyde resin) to stop smelling. I never use plasterboard on the inner surfaces because it damages far too easily. MDF, when secured to the studs is also strong enough to take screws, so you can put up brackets and shelves without needing to find studs.

Don't be temped to use 6mm MDF on the ceiling to save weight - over a year or so, it sags between the joists! garage studios need to be built as they go, but larger projects can benefit from panellised construction that you can build on the ground and then erect and fix.

Windows - I've got windows from my recording room to the room next door. Don't do frames - most are very leaky, sound wise. Buy multiple double glazed panels in safety glass, mount them into the holes and then use ordinary timber to seal them in. never had issues with this technique - BUT - make sure you clean them before you stick them in. discovering a fingerprint on one bit of glass afterwards is annoying for ever!

If you have space above, which I've had on a few of mine, then uprate the joists, and put chipboard on top and use for storage - like a loft conversion.

paulears, post: 413726, member: 47782 wrote: The biggest sound leakage problem comes from cables puncturing panels -

Actually the biggest leakage is windows and doors. There have been studies done on cables and penetration even if offset, the loose is negligible...frequency specific. Better to offset the boxes from one side of an isolated assembly to the other wall to degenerate the path that sound travels on...a well known item in reduction of sound penetration.

We will have to differ here. Clearly a poorly fitting door that has an air path has a sound path too, but unless there are gaps, the sound transmission through a medium like glass with an air gap, and doors is nowhere near the problem that real gaps are. Staggered cable routes through panels vs straight line paths do make a difference - but my point was that it's the gap that causes a problem. If sealed proper, performance is usually good enough - but an unsealed gap - even a small one - like a 10mm holes with two cables squeezed through, leaving a gap, even when the two cables and hole are tight, leaks badly enough to compromise the effort put into the rest of the room.When you have achieved decent reduction levels, then you can hear differences in the door types, but when you've used better ones and the leakage is even lower, the tiny things can conspire against you!

My favourite example was when I'd worked really hard on having a drum proof room - and it performed excellently - so good that a visit from the fire officer revealed a serious problem. Nobody in the studio would hear if the fire alarm was sounding, so a flashing repeater was needed inside. The idiots who installed it drilled a 10mm hole through the wall, and the MI cable was 6.5mm. They sealed the inside and outside skins with a blob of tube sealer of some kind - so no actual air gap, but a microphone outside being moved around pinpointed the leakage to that hole. The solution was making the hole bigger, and then filling the gap with epoxy which restored the walls performance. Silicone, or whatever the sealer was didn't cut it at all.

"the sound transmission through a medium like glass with an air gap, and doors is nowhere near the problem that real gaps are."

See I do not even know what that means. I do not know what it is you do but I will list a short resume. I have been in construction since I was 17 years of age...I am now 56 and still in the same business. I have been involved in sound acoustics since 1996 (you do the math). Rod Gervais hand picked me to monitor this forum.

I have no understanding of how it is that a structure could be built and have "gaps"...you follow me here? If you have gaps then you have a bigger problem and that is your trades persons are not doing the job correctly.

So while you might suggest that gaps are highest on your list of deterioration to the transmission loss of a room my thinking is that you have people that do not do their job properly.

The seals on a door are one thing, but even that does not correct the deficit. The issue is simple. Mass. You have to have mass and if you have a wall assembly that has a transmission loss capable of containing 130dB Drums and you have a door or a piece of glass that is not spec'ed to that level....then the gaps are not as much an issue as the required mass that does not exist.

If you are giving us an example of how you guys build, or rather how poorly, than there is not much more you can say in support of your story.

"The idiots who installed it drilled a 10mm hole through the wall, and the MI cable was 6.5mm."

If you were part of this then you have to own it. Anyone at acoustics 101 level knows silicone is not to be used on anything.

Sorry I thought it quite obvious. If you look at a typical room construction with sheet material on timber studs and joists, normal building techniques rely on visual finish. The joint between wall and ceiling is typical. Sheet material onto the vertical timber, then the ceiling panel is matched up and fixed. Where the ceiling sheet touches the walls, there is nothing above it, and this area frequently leaks. It often looks good from inside, but if you go up on top of the joists, tiny gaps that let light through are evident. On walls, it's easy to overlap the area to keep integrity, but this is tricky on the roof. My current practice is to build the ceilings as panels, totally sealed and then these are placed already formed, onto the top plates of the walls. No leaks. My comment on the windows is that double glazed panels do perform worse than layered walls with higher mass, but a heavy wall with a tiny gap wrecks all that effort. Experience shows that in a studio construction, some extra work may be pointless if you do not alter normal construction methods. An extra layer of 12mm sheet is expensive, and making sure the weak points are sorted could easily work better! Ventilation, electrics and working around awkward angles all need great care, far more important than wasting budget on extra mass. If your room is a perfect seal at the danger points, then you can get the benefit of extra mass.

The idiots who drilled the hole in my example were out of my control - by this time the rooms were in use. General contractors can not be expected to understand acoustics. Why have a pop at me, we both agree, don't we? Surely the entire point is that general construction techniques don't always work for sound?

"Coupling to the brick structure in any way is bad news ..."

Can you explain why? ( I'm not being a smart ass here. I'm sincerely curious).

Coupling the internal to the external can be quite destructive to impact noise reduction - so things like low frequencies from kick drums, or the physical 'hitting' of drum kits and the pedalling of pianos can travel to the outside skin and be radiated quite plainly. Equally noises from outside get in. Something as innocent as a piece of timber used as a temporary support for the internal stud work when being built, but not removed can spoil the project overall. The second one I built had this problem. I followed the good bits from my first, yet this similar one defiantly leaked the thud of the kick drum - the second one was quite useable, but in this case I couldn't find a leak. When I demolished it I found the three short pieces of timber. Another studio I looked at had a dart board on the other side of the brick skin, with the room within a room around 75mm away - and inside the studio the thumps of the darts landing were clearly audible. This was traced to the ceiling being top surfaced with chipboard and used for storage. The user noticed that there was a gap - so he filled it with more chipboard right to the brick, and removing this stopped the clunks coming through.

I never use plasterboard on the inner surfaces because it damages far too easily.

What do you mean as far as damaging too easily, do you mean transporting or installing it?

In use. Somebody pushes a bass cab into the wall, or scores a huge groove as they drag a mic stand by. Plasterboard in a home environment is fine, but looking at the door frames you can see huge gouges and in one studio I did in college, the knobs sticking out of the back of the office type chairs left big grooves in the plasterboard. I cymbal stand knocked over is like a knife to plasterboard. Swapping the outer layer to MDF at least 12mm adds mass and it's tough. You can also attach things like guitar hangers very simply.

Drew B, post: 413429, member: 47977 wrote:

• I know one of the main issues I'll have to deal with is the garage door so looking at building a double wall with a considerable air gap but any other ideas will be appreciated.

I don't see were you have to concern yourself with this - to me it's a non-issue..

You are going to build your room inside of this space - you are going to have a door leading into this space from the storage area - with the garage door open it would be no different that it would be to have a room where the door exited directly to the outside........... with the door closed you get a slight boost in isolation.

• I've been looking into soundproofing for a while now and there is so much information out but for me Its a choice between a room within a room or using resilient channels and genie clips system.

Well where you are building against the existing walls (as shown) there is no advantage to using the channels........

You would typically hold the framing 1" off the inside face of he existing wall - that's your air-space and decouples your wall from the existing building......

If you build the wall frame tight to the inside face of the brick - and then use a clip/RC system - the inside face of your wall finish (all other things being equal) is probably a little further into the room than it would be with the other approach..........

There is no advantage whatsoever to building the wall with an air space and then using the channel/clip system - that's just throwing money away.........

• I'm also contemplating using 1 or 2inch celotex on the walls which is a foil backed insulation straight on the walls prior to the build just to keep the heat in the garage.

Not a bad idea as long as you adjust things to maintain your air-space.........

You would also benefit from insulating the wall cavity with fluffy insulation - & this not only from a comfort point of view - there is a pay back with this from the perspective of an increase in the isolation levels of the walls that makes it a very attractive use of what will otherwise simply be a dead space........

Room In A Room

• I understand building a room within a room decouples the build from the main structure so roughly how much of an air gap would you leave.

1" clear will suffice....... I have never had to use more than that..

• I have planned on using 100mm rockwool, is this too much also i know it sounds silly as its all new to me but if you place the rockwool between the stud wall then what stops it falling out the rear into the gap between the room and structure. Do you have to place anything like strapping.

Strapping would work - netting would work. Generally I don't concern myself with this in a design - however it sounds to me like you have some concerns with condensation (or perhaps leakage) wetting the inside face of your brick walls - and you don't want the insulation tight to the brick with that happening..

Resilient Channel System

• This seems a really good idea due to the amount of space it saves. This will be used also on the ceiling and to do this I will need to create a stud wall and fill between the studs with [="http://www.ikoustic.co.uk/Rock_Wool_Slab_50mm_x_455mm_x_1200mm_20_per_Bail/p857925_4327603.aspx"]acoustic mineral wool [/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]acoustic mineral wool [/]and insulate the studs against the wall with [[url=http://="http://www.ikoustic…"]isolation strips [/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]isolation strips [/]to stop vibration from traveling through the timber studs or build away from the main structure to create an air gap. This version also uses our [="http://www.ikoustic.co.uk/product/genie_clip"]Genie Clips [/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]Genie Clips [/]with [[url=http://="http://www.ikoustic…"]Resiliant bars[/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]Resiliant bars[/] and adds a layer of [="http://www.ikoustic.co.uk/Barrier_Mat_4mm/p857925_3898472.aspx"]4[/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]4[/][[url=http://="http://www.ikoustic…"]mm Mute Barrier mat [/]="http://www.ikoustic…"]mm Mute Barrier mat [/] between two standard plaster boards for extra sound insulation.

As I mentioned above - it saves you nothing.......... besides which - if you have a concern with condensation on the inside face of the brick - building a stud wall tight to it is nothing I would recommend.......

• The downsides with this are firstly cost compared to room in a room. If you build the room against the main structure wall and the rockwool goes against this then surely it will get damp.
• Another thing I don't quite understand why you also build it away from the main structure with an air gap as surely the rubber genie clips also decouple the walls.

Look above - most of this is covered there.

Now - to address the latter - yes the clip systems decouple..... but they do not decouple to the same extent that an isolated wall does....... in fact you get about a 6dB benefit from a fully decoupled assembly over the RC/channel systems..... you (however) get no added benefit from decoupling a structure that is already decoupled........... so if you have a decoupled wall - you are throwing money away by adding clips/channel to the picture (yes i know I said this above - am simply reinforcing it.)

But - in the case of the single wall facing the garage door - the benefit is probably not worth the investment of building the 2nd wall so on that wall I would use the clips - but on the outside face of the wall - not inside of the room...

Make sure your outer skin finishes up to a backer rod/caulk joint against the existing inside face of brick..

Now - as far as the roof goes - obviously your best bet is room within room - and seeing as it's a single car garage you should be able to incorporate an isolated ceiling without too much trouble,,,
and you should also try to work in some added mass above that ceiling (a wood frame ceiling is going to be your weak point compared to the walls - and the overall isolation levels are only as good as the weakest link)

Ventilation

Just a quick question do you have to use air con in an air tight studio?? Can the below be used with just a standard heater during cold spells.

Air conditioning has to do with comfort levels - you don't have to use it all all if that is not an issue for you - however fresh air is a different thing altogether...... you absolutely need to get fresh air into the space - and if you expect to maintain your levels of isolation this is going to require baffles as well as a fan......

If you want to temper that air so that you aren't pumping in completely frigid air in the middle of winter - then a Heat Recovery Ventilator is highly recommended

Rod

paulears, post: 414477, member: 47782 wrote: Sheet material onto the vertical timber, then the ceiling panel is matched up and fixed.

Actually - here in the states that would be an unusual installation - in typical construction the ceiling is installed first - with the wall boards then placed beneath (and tight to) it..........

Where the ceiling sheet touches the walls, there is nothing above it, and this area frequently leaks. It often looks good from inside, but if you go up on top of the joists, tiny gaps that let light through are evident. On walls, it's easy to overlap the area to keep integrity, but this is tricky on the roof.

Actually it is exactly the same (this referring to the labor required for "fit out") on the wall to ceiling/roof corners as it is on the wall to wall corners..... the physics involved with constructing a corner don't suddenly change simply because the orientation does.....

My current practice is to build the ceilings as panels, totally sealed and then these are placed already formed, onto the top plates of the walls. No leaks.

That's fine whatever works for you works for you......

Having said that - I would never design a system like that.......

It is more labor (and material) intensive to panelize a ceiling onsite and then install it - than it is to simply build it in place.........

My comment on the windows is that double glazed panels do perform worse than layered walls with higher mass, but a heavy wall with a tiny gap wrecks all that effort

Improperly designed window systems perhaps.. there is no reason that a window assembly cannot be designed to be equal to (or even exceed) the isolation value of the wall it's being installed in..

Experience shows that in a studio construction, some extra work may be pointless if you do not alter normal construction methods. An extra layer of 12mm sheet is expensive, and making sure the weak points are sorted could easily work better! Ventilation, electrics and working around awkward angles all need great care, far more important than wasting budget on extra mass. If your room is a perfect seal at the danger points, then you can get the benefit of extra mass.

This is pretty much BS sir... perhaps that is your experience - but I can assure you it is not mine.......

In my world, "experience" shows that as long as care is taken to detail exactly what you want constructed - and you provide adequate supervision of the work taking place to assure those details are followed - with a strict policy that any work not in conformance with the construction documents will be taken apart and repaired/replaced at the contractor's expense - that it is actually pretty easy to make sure that things are always done right.

As far as the comment about costs go - drywall is very inexpensive mass - however it makes no sense whatsoever to design an assembly that will not meet the needs - nor does it make sense to design a product that exceeds the need.....

Intelligent design is to provide exactly the amount of mass needed to get the job done - nothing more - nothing less.........

As long as each and every joint type is detailed to cover the installation required for that particular condition - and each of those conditions are clearly identified on the construction documents - there should be no problem with the assemblies when all is said and done.

Every penetration through the shell should be designed/identified- cable routing should be worked through in advance of anyone walking on the job to pull cable......... there should be meetings with the contractors doing the work where every detail/condition is reviewed in order to assure they have it all covered..........

Basically - all of the problems you discuss have to do with a lack of either preparation or oversight.

The idiots who drilled the hole in my example were out of my control - by this time the rooms were in use. General contractors can not be expected to understand acoustics. Why have a pop at me, we both agree, don't we? Surely the entire point is that general construction techniques don't always work for sound?

Well - if that was my project the owner of the company who employed those idiots would own a big expensive problem - because he would be footing the bill to remove their shoddy work and put everything back into the state it should have been in had they done things right in the first place........

Rod

Sometime, it really annoys me that because people do things differently, there are the little barbs in the comments - I guess I get used to it. Let's assume that US builders are much, much better at accuracy and diligence than UK builders. I'm calling it as I see it here. I'll happily defer to your standards. The trouble is that many builders here are really good at slapping up some timber and drywall, and then cosmetically a little filler hides the gaps. I'm going to repeat again my assertion that leaks are the weak link. I know that when I build these structures surfaces will be parallel, and seal properly, but when a general builder does it - these small errors get hidden. really simple stuff like cables through panels - Fire Officer says strobe here - and points. The electrician drills the hole and the Fire Officer is happy. Not planned, and once you pierce a multiple panel, it's not as good.

I did have this vision of you fitting the ceiling first - hovering there in mid air. I see your point, though. It also lets the sheet material overlap.

My system allows me to use general labour successfully, we have very few specialist firms who build these structures in the UK, and it's very common for studio construction, especially in colleges, to be very poorly done. I've fixed enough to see the real problems. It's probably a mixture of carelessness and lack of acoustics knowledge.

I do stand by my comment that sometimes sorting out poor seals - is more cost effective than extra mass in the walls.

Please - let's not say my comments are BS, they're not, but I appreciate you don't agree. Not agreeing is fine, abuse isn't - and reinforces opinion that might not be right?

We are talking about a garage studio - and I have a feeling your reading of a UK garage studio is probably a little different to ours.

Paul,

I have designed facilities (including small home facilities) all over the world..........

It is all about the details..........

If every condition is detailed then the person bidding on/installing the product owns those details as a part of their bid....

I do not have the luxury of being able to visit all of these projects, but I do have the chance to view pictures of the work..... my clients provide tons of pictures....... and their contractors fix every single things they screw up....... this at no cost to my clients.

As far as fire alarms go (or anything else for that matter) all of that should be addressed as a part of the design........

Fire Officers are always more than happy to deal with their requirements up front - there is no reason whatsoever to have to deal with this after the fact......

So we work out typical details to cover things like wires penetrating isolation assemblies - typical details for the routing of line voltage, low voltage, HVAC penetrations - etc., etc., etc......

As I mentioned above - the devil is in the details.......... the only reason for failure at any level has to do with either a lack of foresight - or a lack of oversight.......

If I can do this successfully from the other side of the world for my clients - anyone should be able to do it up close and personal.......

Rod

I understand Rod - sadly, intervention by the fire officer is the least of the issues here. It's very common for a build to have a main contractor and then specialist contractors, who then have small works contractors and there are always HUGE mistakes. Most of my studio builds have been as either the small works contractor or the specialist consultant who advises the specialist contractor. It's a bit of a hit or miss system, so the design brief usually has "insert technical spec here" blanks that then get filled in, product sourced and then given as a so called finished system to the people who will build it, who are very often small local builders, working to plans with no fine detail at all - with comments about "modify to suit on site".

We get recording studios underneath dance studios, or drum rooms next to libraries, or a performance space with one layer of building block between it and a workshop. Three of my builds have been to replace finished and paid for spaces that cannot be used for their prime purpose. Schools and colleges all over the country have this problem when the Government do their deals with outside organisations who build and sponsor schools.

There are huge mistakes in this method of specifying buildings. Crazy things like the requirement in the spec for adequate power for television studio lighting, being misunderstood as work type lighting, so there is maybe 10A available - when the college already had 30KW of TV lighting in their old building. Recording studios fitted with male XLRs in the room with microphones but no reverse wiring for monitoring. Sounds mad, but it is.

The thing about visual alarm warnings was actually in the original spec, but felt by someone to be an unnecessary luxury - but that person missed the thought that a recording studio would be soundproof.

HVAC is another thing frequently just cut from the budget - yet the builder leaves the holes in the walls and ceiling because nobody tells them. I was in a recording studio the other day where the walls are all properly treated, but the roof is zinc, and all that is between it and the recording area is a suspended ceiling - it started to rain and the noise was deafening.

Small garage based project studios are a lot more simple, easier to get right - but still suffer from the few errors in the design.

paulears, post: 414534, member: 47782 wrote: In use. Somebody pushes a bass cab into the wall, or scores a huge groove as they drag a mic stand by. Plasterboard in a home environment is fine, but looking at the door frames you can see huge gouges and in one studio I did in college, the knobs sticking out of the back of the office type chairs left big grooves in the plasterboard. I cymbal stand knocked over is like a knife to plasterboard. Swapping the outer layer to MDF at least 12mm adds mass and it's tough. You can also attach things like guitar hangers very simply.

But attaching MDF securely to a gypsum clad wall is rather difficult as reference lines for studs tend to disappear... thus making it a far more potentially hazardous environment from the MDF not being adequately secured. IMHO, and in practical application, one would be far better off to attach the MDF to the stud layer, then adding gypsum layers. You would get a much more rigid assembly with a lower f0, and a more unified mass that would present a much higher transmission loss.

I've not had issues. It is made more annoying by the fact that MDF comes in imperial sheets size and plasterboard in metric, but that isn't a major snag, so neither is reversing the sheet order. Maintaining secure fixing has not been an issue for me. I also use the sheets horizontally rather than vertically and the stud positions are easy to transfer down to the bottom first MDF layer, then these just get extended upwards for the next sheet. One thing I have always done since build 2 is keep an accurate version of stud and noggin placement. There is always something big and heavy that needs finding something solid to fix to, and the usual stud finders don't work that well through multi layered and thick walls. When fixed properly there's no difference in performance is there? Plasterboard is just a rotten surface for lifespan.

"When fixed properly there's no difference in performance is there?"

Well, yes there is.

One has the ability to even the response of the room(gypsum) the other has the ability to create almost a concrete like reflection(mdf). One has been tested many times(gypsum) the other has very little testing in support of this type of application...e.g. final interior boundary.

Before I get to far off my point...you said "Staggered cable routes through panels vs straight line paths do make a difference"

The boxes make a difference, plastic versus metal.

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ctu-sc/files/doc/ctu-sc/ctu-n27_eng.pdf :
"Because there was virtually no change in the sound isolation of the wall assemblies with plastic vapour-barrier boxes, irrespective of where the boxes were located, the effect of adding sound-absorbing material to the cavity was investigated for metal boxes only."

You also said: "The resilient rubber in itself offers some decoupling, but there remains a physical connection. I've not used these myself,"

Well, there ya go:)

There is no physical connection outside of the points that are decoupled via rubber inserts. What does happen is that due to the bar there is a slight transmission loss at the lower frequency. So while it may be a last resort, it has valid data that supports the use of it.

We trust data around here...not speculation or hearsay or someones experience that is not based on scientific evidence. If we did, then Alton Everest nor Warnock nor Nightingale nor(Rest his Soul) Eric Desart would have ever made any improvements in this field as the general public is concerned.

I do agree that coupling to a brick exterior is never good. coupling the interior to the exterior is never a good thing and creates a bridge...something it sounds like you are still dealing with in your efforts to build an exacting environment.

But what of how structures are constructed in the Americas? The brick is already coupled to the wooden structure...nothing you can do. In the UK you guys build double whyte brick walls, or did, so there is no need to modify that in the attempt for better isolation. You simply build an interior wood framed wall, mdf on the first layer, sheetrock on the other interior layers.

You have mentioned 13mm gypsum, again, no one here suggests using that. If it WAS suggested it would be type "X" or fire-rated. But beyond that, it would not be mentioned because the mass to isolate low frequency transmission loss is not there.

My questions in respect to your self promotion are simple. I build, I do the math, I use verified data.

I do not think that I have so many answers based on trial and error that I can fix anything that comes up by simple speculation.

But your suggestions on HVAC will have to wait for another day :)

Keep on posting...

Plasterboard is just a rotten surface for lifespan.

Not for me, when you confer it w plaster it's actually quite rugged against the day to day dings. No dents in our walls after 3 or 4 years.

I defer to your superior knowledge Space, no issues with that at all - I think my trial and error process through the projects has been far less calculated but for me, the improvements by removing the weaker links have been worth it, because all these spaces have had budget as a prime feature, and are significantly less than a properly calculated and designed acoustic solution where budgets are higher. Sound Studio - there - quickly - cheaply and as good as it can be done for £X.

The potential problems with recessed sockets and switches is solved by not compromising the surface and using surface mount systems to do the cable management. Our standard electrical boxes do come in metal and plastic versions but the metal ones are not normally uses in panels - only cut into blocks or brick, or surface mounted onto the underlying layer. They have no facility to be recessed into a panel or sheet. The plastic ones are the opposite and designed to be fitted to the plasterboard sheet - in the usual drywall stud wall.

Could you explain the 13mm gypsum board (plasterboard) comment - not sure why this is on the 'oh oh' list? Re: UK walls. Double brick is now quite rare, they're usually brick exterior with those aerated cement blocks internally which are thermally efficient with the air content, but quite poor sound wise - and in the specs always feature in the lower performing materials area. Our plasterboard is 6/9/12mm generally, with 18mm to special order - at least on my area. MDF and ply generally up to 18mm.

In one college build, the words HVAC Plant were in such small writing on the plans put up for approval, that all the users believed they had an unasked for, but most appreciated store room. The ducting ready 'holes' in the blockwork were assumed to be odd high windows.