This is the dilema. I take each project to where it wants to go. Some are able to be loud, some not. Not everything is created equal.

Trying to shoot for a particular level seems a little... odd...

Michael Fossenkemper wrote: This is the dilema. I take each project to where it wants to go. Some are able to be loud, some not. Not everything is created equal.

I should send you some of my clients. They want there acoustical stuff as loud as Rap or Heavy Metal. I don't know how you can decide where "it wants to go" isn't that what the client is telling you? Just wondering???

Like the old saying goes, "would you jump off a cliff if someone asked you to?"

I've built a client base that more or less respects my opinion. I push it to where I start to get diminshing returns, then I back off a bit. 9/10 times I don't get any volume louder requests. If I do, I'll explain why I didn't go louder and let them decide. If I strongly disagree with their request, then I respectfully recommend them to someone else. Almost all of my clients are by word of mouth. So if I start destroying material for the sake of volume and they recommend me to someone else... You can see how one can get a boat load of volume crushing clients over a period of time. So in these instances, I would rather not take the gig. I'm not saying i'm in the practice of turning away clients, but i've found that the ones who are the most concerned about volume crushing loudness are the least experienced and don't really care how they sound. Not the kind of client that I would go out of my way to attract.

Cosme, this is not a new trend. This is an extension of the "LOUDNESS WARS" that radio has gone through for over 40 years. Not only do the broadcasters totally crunch your signal after it has been expertly mastered and released, they crunch it "spectrally" compressing multiple frequencies independently (multiband compressor)! And for the icing on the cake the radio stations may also utilize what is referred to as "COMPOSITE CLIPPING". We're not talking about clipping the audio directly but the RF signal itself, which in turn also clips the audio and adds undue distortion. And all for that extra edge of loudness.

If you combine an already hot compressed recording with the highly compressed technique of the radio station broadcast you'll get a signal that is louder than loud! If your song is louder than another song on a competing station, your song will be deemed "better" than the other song and station. Which we all know is not really true but a advertising marketing gimmick that still continues to this day. So it all comes down to the mindless many that will listen to their favorite loudest station and will favor the loudest songs on their loudest station over the softer songs on the softer stations. Can you say STUPID? They don't think they are?

The customer is always right.
Ms. Remy Ann David

Don't discount the power of the salespeople at any given radio station, either. (Respectfully, they are not always the sharpest knife in the drawer, if you get my drift...)

I recall certain idiotic sales managers at a CLASSICAL MUSIC station (!!!) in the late 80's pushing the Program Director and Chief engineer for "more volume" so that he could go in to his clients and say: "See that? Just listen to how your ads just JUMP OUT at you when cruising down the dial." This was far more important to him than the purity of the music, of course. (Meanwhile, we had classical music purists calling up and SCREAMING about the modest compression they were already using.)

Everyone hated the guy, and for the most part, over-compression was a big no-no there anyway, but it was always an issue of contention. I know it's worse on pop/rock/rap stations now as well. I can't imagine it getting any better, as long as the inmates are running the asylum.

You just have to do the best you can, keep your clients informed with "The truth" and hope for the best. As long as you are honest about what's going on and why, you never have to feel bad about turning the work away, or giving in to yet another ridiculous volume request.

No, it doesn't have to be that way. You just have to do what you like. There are plenty of people who appreciate a great sounding record. Build your own niche. People from all over the world will come to you to get THAT sound. it means you will have to turn away work. But you don't like it anyways so it's no real loss. If you are true to what you believe in, then others will follow you. I have to remind myself of why i'm doing this all of the time. I turn down more work than I take. Not just because of sonic reasons, but for quality of life reasons too. I don't want to work on sunday night, so I choose to turn down gigs that have to be done on sunday night for God knows whatever reason. But it's also important to build yourself to a point to afford to do this. So it's a fine line you have to walk. I am fortunate enough to be able to choose not to do certain gigs. But I am able to do this because of not what I did, but what I decided not to do. In the 90's, most of my work was hip hop. I decided that I didn't want this to be my bread and butter and only concentrated on world music, jazz, and R&R, turning down all the rap and hip hop gigs. I "Lost" a lot of income for a few years until I established myself, but I was happier. Now I do about one hip hop or rap gig a year because I choose to do it, not because I have to do it. Money isn't everything, happiness counts for more than we think.

Well spoken, Mike. I couldn't agree more. But, it's a tough lesson to learn, and very hard to implement for those trying to get somewhere. I too am in a position where I may turn down work that is wrong for me or my business.

Sometimes, it really does make sense to take a pass on something, rather than being miserable the whole time and hating life. That may come as shock to some, esp when things can be tight all over and every dollar counts. But living with yourself and enjoying life makes it all the more important.

In past discussions about this, there were some comments about not "learning" from the clients (who presumably knew better?) or ignoring some kind of new 'artform." To me, bad is bad, and always will be. There certainly CAN come a time when one must grow a spine and tell somewhen when they're wrong, even if it hits us in the pocketbook or costs us a client.

Mike's comments about attracting the right clientel are right on; eventually you'll attract the kind of clients you want. It's very hard to get going, but you'll love yourself in the morning if you do.

FWIW: I AM finding that some folks are learning (finally?) what's going on with the loudness wars. Once I show them a squashed waveform vs. what their "un-crunched" material looks and sounds like, many immediately say: "Don't do that to MY music." Another way to get people to calm down about their relative loudness issues is to play their loudest song first (very often putting it first on the CD, as well), and then use that as their max level setting, esp if it's a concert or a compilation of related material. Very often, that's enough to put them at ease, knowing that the volume settings work relative to each other.

Funny this topic has come up.

As of July 1, 2006 Acoustik Musik, Ltd. will be going back to what our name is all about. We are going to concentrate on our roots which has always been acoustical music. We are redirecting our efforts and will be doing mainly Jazz, Classical, Folk, Country and Bluegrass mastering after that date. We will not be doing Hip Hop, Heavy Metal or Rap.

This is not an easy decision and may cost us dearly but for my own peace of mind I need to do this now.

For most of thirty five plus years I have been in audio I have done mostly classical, jazz and folk recording, mixing and mastering so it is something I feel very comfortable doing.

Since our mastering company was founded 10 years ago we have tried to be a one stop do it all company and have met a lot of wonderful people along the way and have worked on some GREAT projects. The problem is that I do not feel fulfilled doing some of the mastering I have had to do to stay in business and I am now at a point that I want to choose the types of music that I master.

Only time will tell if I made the right decision but I feel very good about it and hope that by redirecting our efforts we can still make some money.

We talked this over with our clients and have done a lot of soul searching before coming to this decision but I think it is right and correct for where we now are.

FWIW

I am just like many of the other professionals who are responding here. I tell most prospective clients that call me, " if you don't know how to play an instrument and cannot sing, then you won't want to work with me because I only work with talented people". My other friends with recording studios have told me you can make a living that way and they are basically correct. Another reason why I am a freelance engineer in the broadcast industry so when I am not recording stuff, I'm on the air engineering talking head news programs, running around with a video camera in the field and editing video along with authoring DVDs. Bread and butter! No 35 takes of bad guitar solos or, ripping somebody else's music track to use for a "beat". I'm quite happy with my decision although I would like to make more $ recording more real music.

Picky picky broad
Ms. Remy Ann David

Cosme, I don't really agree about your comments regarding what happens to the sound of the bass drum on " loud mixes". Many of us have used dynamics processing on bass drums, in our mixes. It adds a little more "meat" to the sound of the bass drum. It does not do what you describe to the sound. And to assume that, you are definitely " limiting" your potential as a good engineer.

Limiting the Unlimited
Ms. Remy Ann David

Cosme, I think you are pulling my "no habla Espanol' " leg? That high-energy rock-and-roll cut was GREAT! Everything about it was first rate and fully professional. I'm not much into that kind of high-energy rock-and-roll alot but I thought that the demonic "death rattle" vocal near the end of the song was pretty darn cool! I thought your drums sound/mix was totally fine? And the mastering superb.

It doesn't sound to me that you recorded this in your basement with a cheap little mixer? It sounds like you did this in a fully professional studio, somewhere in the hills of Venezuela? Tell me more about your production process and tools?

I love galapeno' peppers
The spicy girl
Ms. Remy Ann David

Cosme, Not sure why you thought I would dislike what you did? You should have a higher opinion of your technical capabilities. I think your recording is a beautiful example of what one can do with decent but affordable equipment. I had purchased in the past a pair of large capsule Samson condenser microphones when they first came out, since they along with the MXL's were some of the first "U87" look-alikes and because they were only $60 each, I just had to find out how they sounded. I really didn't care for the sound much and gave them to a friend's rock-and-roll band. Everybody loves them on the lead singer and I've never really cared for them. C'est la vie It just shows to go you, you still have to know how to manipulate the equipment you have to its fullest capabilities and obviously, you have!

Keep that rock-and-roll a pumpin' down south, Way South
Ms. Remy Ann David