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anonymous 17 April 2010

Sorry for asking this again but I wanted to talk about patchbays in greater detail.

What are all the pro and cons and options for patchbays?
Is it better to have 2 smaller ones than one big one?

How many are migrating to digital?

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TheJackAttack Sat, 04/17/2010 - 22:02

I have not migrated to digital patchbays. I still have several older TRS bays both 40 and 48 points. I hardly use them at all nowadays. I'm all modular with various wheeled SKB racks and wire cases. Plus I don't do rock bands/PA anymore! But never say never. I guarantee the day I sell off the mixer I get three requests for reinforcement.....

djmukilteo Sat, 04/17/2010 - 22:56

Well...I'll jump back into this again....I really think the whole patchbay notion revolves around your needs and use.
I only have one TRS patch bay and I use to use it with my Tascam38/32 NR and mixer.
Now I use it to bring out the inputs and outputs from the rear of the FF800 and I did that because I got tired of reaching around in the back and shifting things around.
So my use was really a convenience rather than a necessity and if I wasn't experimenting around all the time and had a set hookup scheme I probably wouldn't use it. And to be honest I don't really use it very often....it's there and it's set and if I feel like moving I/O around it's there. If I had a ton of outbd gear or a ton of mic input positions out in a room, I would use one just because it's just convenient and a logical method of interconnect....We used to install those in many racks back in the day for performance auditoriums because they provided such flexibility for mic routing down on the floor and stage area in the control room and that's a case where they really become indispensable!

audiokid Sun, 04/18/2010 - 23:08

Thanks again guys!

I think I'm going to lay off on buying one just yet. Isn't it interesting to see such little interest in patchbays. 5 years ago there would have been quit the crowd on this thread. DAW's are really settling in. I bet Patchbays don't sell like they used too.

I'm seeing a big opportunity with the analog summing studios. I hope it sounds as good as I'm expecting.

Working on the cable now.

TheJackAttack Sun, 04/18/2010 - 23:33

Chris,
What I think is that gear is "cheap" enough that folks often have a home/studio rig patched they way they want with a secondary mobile rig for live capture. I capture via Alesis HD24XR and also via a DAW/Glyph hard drive. I have a separate Glyph key unit in the home rack so all I have to do is pull the key itself to transfer the files. That's about all the patching I do these days.

dvdhawk Mon, 04/19/2010 - 00:12

audiokid, post: 346179 wrote: Ya... I'm seeing the majority of all my gear staying in one place with the exception of a few. I'm slightly concerned that more cable, more noise. Budget provided, going for Mogami .

How many studios have you been in that they DIDN'T have to wiggle the patchbay to get something to work?

There's always a small amount of loss with each added connector (insertion loss). And since oxidation is the enemy, Caig DeoxIT and Caig PreservIT (now called DeoxIT SHIELD) should be a part of patchbay purchase.

dvdhawk Mon, 04/19/2010 - 08:39

audiokid, post: 346186 wrote: Do you spray it on the connectors?

Sorry I missed your follow up question, it was 3am and I called it a day after posting that. Looks like you did the search. Yes sir, when I get something new ( audio connectors, computer card-edge connectors, video editing gear ) if it has a lot of critical connectors I'll spray it with the PreservIT to at least delay oxidation.

DeoxIT would be sprayed directly onto a connector / into a pot or slider / into a tube socket / etc. that already has some build-up. In a potentiometer or slider, you spray it in and run the slider or turn the knob the full range of motion and it breaks up the crud clears the entire path. It leaves a light liquid lubricant behind to minimize wear on the parts. *NOTE: potentiometers are meant to have a certain amount of lubricant in them to prevent wear on the contacts. Faders on a good mixer usually have a nice thick lubricant inside the fader. DeoxIT flushes most of the manufacturers' lube away and leaves a very light lubricant behind - often a much thinner lube than the original. This can leave you with a slider that offers much less physical resistance - which can make a good slider feel kind of 'cheap' compared to another fader on a good console. So Deox is not a cure all, just another good weapon when used with some common sense.

The only other way I would know of to guaranty your patchbay doesn't get flaky under heavy use is replace it periodically. A friend gave me a beautiful 48-point ADC patchbay that came out of a TV production truck. They replace them every couple years, as a matter of preventative maintenance.

djmukilteo Mon, 04/19/2010 - 18:15

audiokid, post: 346175 wrote: Thanks again guys!

I think I'm going to lay off on buying one just yet. Isn't it interesting to see such little interest in patchbays. 5 years ago there would have been quit the crowd on this thread. DAW's are really settling in. I bet Patchbays don't sell like they used too.

I'm seeing a big opportunity with the analog summing studios. I hope it sounds as good as I'm expecting.

Working on the cable now.

I hope the summing thing works out too....and I would like to see the setup and hear the results when you get there!

MadMax Mon, 04/19/2010 - 20:28

OK... pot, stick.... stir.... :tongue:

IMVHO, NOT using good quality outboard gear makes your studio limited to being the same sonic character as every other ITB project level studio on the planet.

In my modest lil' shop, I'm using my 2nd Audiolot patchbay in a Non-Normalled configuration by putting ALL 24 channels of I/O in the first two rows; 1-24, and all the outboard gear in the rest of the bay, including all the sidechain inputs being together.

That way it's configured as a conventional analog console. e.g. if you want outboard, you gotta patch it... and you can patch what you want... where you want.

audiokid Mon, 04/19/2010 - 21:36

Max, I have been waiting for you to chime in!!

John and djmukilteo have been so helpful to me. I go over and over things like this, it can drive people nuts but I'm learning... and getting it right.

I'm building a hybrid DAW, not messing around at all. I'll have a half dozen pres at the end of the day, a few comps, reverb, Passeq which is so nice!, transient designer, SPL MixDream and a few mastering toys. All hardware interested. I'm using the DAW for mixing and midi for the most part and analog summing. I've been taking baby steps as I go. A patchbay isn't something I've ever needed before (all ITB). I've never had a setup like this before. I've been collecting gear as the babies have been growing ya know. Its my turn once again. Not doing the all ITB thing everyone else is doing these days.

Your patchbay looks pretty sweet. Why did you buy that one? Its like $1700. Anything you can share about your system and what you think about my new setup would be appreciated. I've never used a patchbay. If its essential, I'll get one for sure.

This is a pretty good look at my rig, and I have more.

 

Attached files

MadMax Tue, 04/20/2010 - 06:26

wow... interesting thread so far.....

The "operator" character was definitely Lily Tomlin... what a GREAT show it was too!

Back OT though...

Nada, I didn't EVEN seriously look at digital patchbays... more of a philosophical thing for me.

I prefer straight forward shortest/simplest path wiring.

Route to to the converter, then the external device, then, back in.... no sync or clocking issues beyond the converter... just delay compensation.

I chose the Mixbay for a coupla' reasons... first, it's grouped in 8 channel db25's. For some, that's a hindrance. For others, it's a logical progression/extension of your converters. I'm in the latter logical group. Second, at the time, it was the only viable db25 patchbay on the market. Third, it seems to be seriously industrial strength build quality. Fourth, it's a high density configuration... 96 points in in 3RU's.

So, my tracking path is mic panel-> (PB) pre Input -> (PB) pre Output -> (PB) A/D converter -> (PB) DAW... then DAW... [where (PB) is the patch bay] I have 24 channels of converters normalled for tracking input.

I have 7 tie panels in the tracking areas configured for input... (soon to be 8... maybe.) Six of the panels are 8 channels, and the main panel is 16.

The main panel is the shortest route to the converters by 10 feet or more, and I try to use my shortest cables to the drums. (or whatever is closest to that main panel)... and that main panel is normalled to the 1st 16 channels of conversion. The other 8 channels are normalled to the hallway panel. When I have stuff in the Iso booth or any of the other tie panels, I just patch into the mic pre input and I'm normalled from there, into the 24 input converters.

I use 16 of those D/A channels (on the 1st Aurora 16) to come back out to the mains/alt speakers, and to the 16 channel Furman headphone system... of which I use the first 2 channels (it's a PT thing) for the mains output. Leaving 14 channels for monitoring; 8 mono sends and 3 stereo sends.

With patch cables, I can use those same 14 channels of converters for additional mix down I/O as inserts or auxes.

I have 24 channels of A/D & D/A non-normalled on the 2nd patchbay. The top two rows of the first 24 points are the D/A and A/D. All the rest of the outboard gear is non-normalled to the rest of the patchbay as In/Out on the matching rows. e.g. Just like an analog console.

Of course, I'm an old analog road warrior, who's used to running FOH and Mon Beach... so while my configuration makes sense to me (and most old road dogs and analog console guys), it ain't gonna be for everyone.

The way I view it is like this... if you are going to use any outboard gear, you GOTTA be on a patch bay system... no matter whose you buy into. The one thing I don't care for are solder type of wire wrap bays.

There's several manu's who make TT db25 now, and a couple who make plug in terminal type. Those are the only two types I would actually look at, unless you can get a seriously wicked cheap deal on the other types.

Davedog Tue, 04/20/2010 - 09:44

I am using my patchbays as my insert points only right now. I still have my elderly Switchcraft self-cleaning TRS as my insert points from the outboard gear. They are normalled. These are high-end patchbays. Came out of a famous (around here) radio station rack. I have two and I only use one. These are the heavy solid brass military style connectors. And the loom in the back makes it very easy to lay the wiring in a neat way. The other bay that comes from the inserts on the console is a Hosa with the normalling switches on each insert. I dont really like it that much although it is quiet. The switches are crap though and require the "jiggling" mentioned before. One of these days I'm gonna stick the other Switchcraft in there and call it good.
I have at least five other patch bays collected over the years of different studio configurations. I still have two with TRS through to RCA for the Tascam stuff......38....32....520 board etc....

planet10 Fri, 04/23/2010 - 08:10

im a big fan of patch-bays. each I/O o f my console, converters, outboard, tie lines to the iso boths/live room, recorders, headphones, and extra gear that a client may bring in as well, GOTTA HAVE IT. it speeds up your sessions....do you want to be crawling around the floor with a flash light plugging in xlr's??? if you keep all things hardwired to your mixer/converters you limiting yourself with your instrumentation, some instruments benefit from a different pre/comp/eq than others. the advantage is this, what if you have a piece of outboard gear thats on its "period".....inside of 2 seconds you can bypass that piece and move on.
my PB choice is Switchcraft with the adjustable Normalled/half normalled/open switch. soldered to mogami 24 wire cable.

MadMax Mon, 04/26/2010 - 18:15

planet10, post: 347023 wrote: MadMax
your place is doing the wood too, not to many studios are going that route nowadays, ive heard that it makes them feel as if they were in the 70's!!!. your back wall is very different??
racks..... how does that work on bass trapping?? what kind of standing waves are you getting or not??

I dunno about the 70's... but so far, everyone has come in and been very appreciative of the wood. They seem to relax and get a bit of a "cool" groove.

The racks are actually great for trapping!

AFAIK, I've not got any standing wave issues at all... very diffuse and even across the spectrum.

I'm tracking a 7 piece band, and the sax player is tracking in the CR with me. They sound about as good as his final tracks in the big room, actually. So, believe it or not, the CR's not a bad tracking room either! :biggrin:

planet10 Tue, 04/27/2010 - 07:29

MadMax
i get that too, clients feel the warmth of the wood tone (color) and it makes them chill better. i have always felt that a wood room translates better..well i was just wondering about the trapping in the back since most studios i have worked inover the years and mine included all have a minimum 4 foot thick back wall with hanging 3 inch thick wood slabs loaded with insulation on each side to absorb the bass. i also noticed, and i may be wrong, is your control room raised and floating?

MadMax Tue, 04/27/2010 - 08:41

Nada on the raised CR... although the whole room actually floats... as does every room. All rooms are on 8" thick independent concrete slabs. Slabs are all on at least 16" of compacted sand. (CR's on at least 30" of compacted sand.)

You can check the build thread here at RO for detailed info. I wanna say it was about 2.5 years ago that I poured the slabs??? I know I started in November of some year... yeeesh...

But right now, I'm 3 days away from my grand opening... so, I'm just a tad insane scheduled right now to dig it up. Gimme a few days and a reminder and I'll suss the dates/images/etc...

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