(1) We get no respect, why?
Maybe you answered that one already... "The adat's are some what a pain at times" This may be more important than their bad sound. No client likes to hear the words "sorry, the adat just ate your tape, you'll have to do that take over again." (Or worse.) No Professional wants to lose a good client to something that could have been avoided altogether.

(2) What has been you experience with adats, Good or Bad?
A little of both. A little budget is better than no budget (and no work) at all. I still do work occasionally with the poor. lol

(3) How do you think the XT 20 sounds, compared to...?
A little cold? Hard to explain how they compare to other stuff. Have you ever seen an old picture that had just one color faded a little bit?

(3) Does everyone make back-up tapes?
When time allowed, which was usually never.

Have you ever had one eaten?
Many.

(4) What is your method for back-ups
d-to-d optical transfer between 2 machines.

do you re-use them
Reuse??? Are you insane?

or archive them with the masters
Preferrably kept in different building than the masters.

how do you cover the cost?
The client has to buy the backups the same way they bought the masters.

(5) Do you clean and service your own machines?
I can clean em, but beyond that either I'm too wuss or it takes too much time.

(6) Are there any suggestions that you would like to share from your experience working with adat's?
You probably know these already... but here it is again for GP:

1. Stretch your tapes AT LEAST TWICE before formatting.
2. Use an outboard FF/REW machine for stretching so it doesn't kill your motors.
3. Do a full FF/REW before you put your tapes away.
4. Don't go faster than the ADAT. The ADAT will lose, and take your tape with it.
5. Don't put anything important on the last couple minutes of tape.
6. One rack space in between each machine to keep the heat down.
7. Use short sync cables between machines (~1' long).
8. Use the best tape you can get. (Last I checked, that was Maxell, HHB, AGFA... not Quantegy. Could be different now.)

I know that for the seasoned Pro's, the adat started the end of life as they knew it and maybe that's the thing. I just want to hear some "real answers".
If it allows you to get a full day's work done, I'm all for it.

It's like a cheap car. It has wheels and gets you from A to B. They're not very fast, and tend to break down a lot. You'll have to work a lot harder to pick up chicks (unless you're into skanks). People in Benz's will sneer at you, and you'll say you don't care, though deep down you know you wouldn't refuse a free 600. Ok, maybe you can't drive home to the same street as the guy with the Benz lives on, but you can live in the same zip code. If you're a good talker you can even get his daugter to give you a hummer (everyone says she's easy). Then you can go smoke a joint with her brother and drink a case of PBR's. If you haven't guessed by now, its 5am and I have no idea where my analogy is.

Hope that helps, :)

Yeah, what he said, lol. I agree with everything my man said about adats, and would also add that I have worked with all vintages of em, inluding M20's and the sound is better than the old ones, but still unexceptable to me. OK, if that's all you have, fine, rock on. I'd rather make a record on used 2" tape, on a beat up 16trk, at 15IPS to save bucks, than 32 trks of any version adat. My .02

We might all never have anything in common. We might all come from a different background, a different race, religion and belief. We might all not agree on what is or isn't good music. We may find a million things that we do not have in common, but one thing we ALL have in common is for certain....and that is the fact that ADATS suck.

Not a "fan" here, but after using them on a regular basis for a few years, I learned to deal. It was either that, or have a stroke from stressing over the stupid design problems. I feel they only belong in project studios, but we all know that is unrealistic. Bang for the buck will usually win, especially when there are people using them that either can't hear the sonic differences between them and quality gear, or just don't care that there is a difference. I've gotten acceptable results for certain projects, but my biggest beef is with the useability (or lack of...).

Long, long, long story shortened....... If I'm calling the shots and the budget is there, I refuse to use them.

Dave g http://www.groovestainproductions.com

A friend of mine has had 3 black face ADATs and a Mackie 8 bus in his studio since they came out (recently upgarded 8 bus to the D8B). Before that he had an Otari MX5050. He makes his living with them and is doing well. He's still in business unlike most small studios I've seen come & go. He didn't lose his head in buying expensive gear. He knows how to use and take care of what he has. He's maybe lost 1 tape a year. I've heard his work and it's good. Better than some things I've heard out of local "pro" studios with Studers, Neve's, APIs SSLs etc. in the DC area. It's not just the car, it's the driver.

I've done a lot of work with them. I've never had a tape eaten.

They take A LOT of patience, wait at least 10 seconds between any transport function change. If you try to work faster you will have tapes damaged. Sometimes they don't lock up. People who are very used to reel to reel machines work faster and when they get on the ADATs often get frustrated quickly.

They take regular maintainance (clean/replace the idler wheels very regularly). Clean them three times as often as you think you need to.

For the money they sound OK.

Tape is cheap.

Absolutely positively make digital backups!

Slow.....

They've completely changed the world of recording. Studios that charge $120 /hr with a $300,000 console and $50,000 24 track go nuts when they see someone with $12,000 of ADATs and a $20,000 board charging $60 / hour and getting thier cleints! It's like buying a Ferrari and seeing the guy with a Geo ragtop getting some of the same chicks!

I recently bought a 1 in. 16 track. It sounds better to me, hiss and all. I'm recording my rock band. If I was running a studio I would have it and some ADATs. They're in my price point and for some things I would want digital. Plus they're currently a standard.

OK, OK, OK, :o But I do care enough to find out what I need to know!

So now, with all the infinite knowledge here what should be done, if we are to be taken seriously. Please consider the fact we don't have a Swiss bank account and will we be able to justify any real investment with the fact of our location and client base.

Please look at our equiptment list http://www.oldhousestudio.com/equiplist.htm and advise accordingly so we don't end up with a Benz and no gas to put in it.

Thanks for all of your graceiously kind input! :cool:

David,

Your gear looks fine, very similar to what I have. The board is decent, XT20's are better than anything ADAT in the past. One thing that I didn't see that would really improve your sound significantly would be a pair of Apogee Converters. I have a Rosetta, and it kicks ass on the ADAT converters. I cant wait until the Apogee IntelliDAC comes out, as well as the Alesis HD24. For $12K I will be able to have 48 tracks of 24 bit with all Apogee D/A!!!

Oops...actually $10K for that stuff street price.

David,
Looking at your page, the ADAT's would be about the only reason a person like myself wouldn't book your room at least to track in. You're collecting all the right mics & pre's, some cool outboard fx, nice looking interior, lounge w/ kitchen is cool. Maybe it's just time to step up?

"A friend of mine has had 3 black face ADATs and a Mackie 8 bus in his studio since they came out (recently upgarded 8 bus to the D8B). Before that he had an Otari MX5050. He makes his living with them and is doing well. He's still in business unlike most small studios I've seen come & go. He didn't lose his head in buying expensive gear. He knows how to use and take care of what he has. He's maybe lost 1 tape a year. I've heard his work and it's good. Better than some things I've heard out of local "pro" studios with Studers, Neve's, APIs SSLs etc. in the DC area. It's not just the car, it's the driver." --Yuri

My experience has been a lot like Yuri's friend (not the console stuff, but the other stuff). I've made tapes on ADAT that please my mastering engineer and sound like I want them to, I'm convinced it's OK-- ESPECIALLY when he puts on other 2"-Studer stuff made by others in more expensive rooms. Perhaps I just prefer my own taste in sounds?

The lockup IS slow, and cutting/pasting tracks is a total bitch, tho possible. The converters on the Blackfaces sound BAD to me. In a double-blind test I did twice with two different batches of buddies, the XT won out over the XT20 and the Blackface, for me. Buddy #1 guessed the XT WAS the 20 bit unit (less thin). In the 2nd set of tests, buddies #2 & #3 chose the Blackface as the best sounding unit of the three! Go figure. Boy, were they MAD when we unveiled and they found they LIKED the blackface!

Angelo posted a few tips that seemed, to him, essential. But I don't always agree...

" 1. Stretch your tapes AT LEAST TWICE before formatting.
2. Use an outboard FF/REW machine for stretching so it doesn't kill your motors.
3. Do a full FF/REW before you put your tapes away."

I never do any of these things and have not lost a tape, or any information, since around '95. I DO rewind to the top at the end of the day, tho.

"4. Don't go faster than the ADAT. The ADAT will lose, and take your tape with it."

I agree you'll confuse the machines, tho I have seldom lost a tape that way.

"5. Don't put anything important on the last couple minutes of tape."

Agree.

"6. One rack space in between each machine to keep the heat down."

This is good practice, 'tho, once again, I don't do it and have never had a problem.

"7. Use short sync cables between machines (~1' long)."

Ahhhh... Many tape-eating behaviors have been TRACED to SHORT, ALESIS BRAND SYNC CABLES. This may be part of the reason why Angelo has had such bad luck with ADATs, tho I might be totally incorrect. I got this from my tech-- he blamed those short cables. To prove it, we switched out the longer, fatter Comp USA cables I had just put in and installed some custom short Alesis cables he had. The machines promptly ate a tape.

"8. Use the best tape you can get. (Last I checked, that was Maxell, HHB, AGFA... not Quantegy. Could be different now.)"

I use Quantegy all the time. No problemo. Also I use Apogee, BASF. All OK.

Bottom line- don't let 'em see the machines, and do good work.

Also-- Went to your site, David, and all looks good... But I go FIRST to the mic collection to check out a Studio, and while I know they're super expensive, I always look for U47, U67, ELA M251, M50, M49, C12, C24. Without those mics, I know I'll be adding rental charges to bring them in. With the top mics (you already have some excellent pres- congratulations!) and best EQs (Avalon, GML, NEVE) the ADAT format can't hold you back, at least in the final fidelity test.

Does this help?

WOE

Thanks again everyone, this is getting intresting! West of Essex, what you said about the listening test and hearing the mixes made in the big facilities. That is exactly why I started this post. I for one have listened to a lot of recordings made on expensive equiptment and ALWAYS reference my mixes to a major release and yes there is a difference but I just don't hear this "they suck" difference. Aside from the operation limitations (which I stated I have adapted to) whats the deal.

One of the strangest things was a guy who WORKED for the tec. service for our local Pro Studio called me after hearing an acapella choir that I recorded and inquired about booking time with us for his band, after talking with him he apparently thought we were analog. When I told him we were adat, he ask if we were using apogee converters. I said no just stock adats. His reply was " oh, well I don't like digital I can hear the converters! I thought to myself if you can hear them why are you calling!

Anyway, Ang1970 (and anyone else)what do you suggest should be our "step up"? I would like to hear ideas for both analog AND digital.

I think the ADAT "claim to fame" would be Alanis Morressette's jagged little pill album. An interview with Glen Ballard, the producer, said it was tracked on Blackface ADATs. He went on to say he "loved" the blackface ADAT due to their unique sound.

He also mentioned that any live drums they recorded were overdubs at a different studio.

The biggest problem with ADATs is they sound OK. With all the other transport problems I expected them to sound worse. But because they sound OK they've spread like wildfire.

Anyway, one more tip that was left out.

ALWAYS REWIND BEFORE EJECTING!!!!!
If it's going to munch, it's usualy during the time that the guides are pulling the tape around the head. Better if it's on leader then material. ;)

David,
I checked out your site. The place looks great, and is well equipped! Your floor plan looks very similar to what we just started building.
From personal experience, I'd upgrade the console before the recorder. We did a couple of years ago it I think it made a big difference. I later bought a 2" 24-track. It's being rebuilt and will sound wonderful, and many people will still record on ADATs. Analog tape ain’t cheap!

Good Luck, Have Fun!

Originally posted by dbeng@bellsouth.net:
Please look at our equiptment list [URL=http://www.oldhouse….

Thanks for all of your graceiously kind input! :cool:

Pretty nice list...I think we can agree that equipment wise at least ( I dont know anything about your rooms) you would have to be a turkey to not be able to get good sounds out of there...

I am interested: what is an LA-2A clone??? A reissue? or you made it yourself?

ProTools is still out of orbit pricewise, but it is what everyone seems to be tracking to in NY these days. (That is, if they're not tracking to 2" or dash; also pretty expensive.) If you want people from other studios to walk into yours with their tracks and vice-versa, that's the way to go.

Not having a ProTool or 2" budget, I would look at some of the stand-alone solutions - such as Yamaha, Makee, and Radar's 24 track digital boxes. Particularly, I'd focus on the ones that are trying to be compatible with other DAW platforms. They'll all sound the same with outboard converters and individual outputs into your board. Transition can be a bitch, and this is all going to be obsolete in a few years. The longer you can stay compatible, the more the gear pays itself off and sets you up for the next round (hopefully keeping the outboard converters you accumulate).

Aaron,

David is pretty busy right now, so I'll answer about the LA-2A clone.

It is indeed a clone that we built, not a reissue. Several web sites have the schematic. We used a Mid Atlantic Products econo 2-space chassis. The T4B module was NOS from JBL. UTC series A transformers. Sifam meter that we bought from a "friend". All audio caps are orange-drop. Regulated DC for the tube heaters. We brought the response pot to the front for adjusting. Semi-crude wiring using perfboard. Did I leave anything out? Oh yeah, it sounds great!

Email me or David for construction details.

I want to thank everyone for their input!!!

We have decided that 2" analog is "Our next step up". Of course we pretty much knew this and have been wanting to for some time. I guess we just needed a little push. It is very hard to justify that kind of money not knowing if it will bring in more and better clients. So, if any of you guys need a studio down this way or know of anyone, PLEASE send them our way!

BTW, Old House Scott (my partner) has started the thread,

< Which lower priced 2" 24-trk? >

Any input would be appreicated!!

I find it interesting reading that some are "stepping up" to 24 track/2" analog. There must be thousands of recording studios that make a perfectly good recording and a decent living out of a "Mackie/ADAT" type of place. I'm not flaming, just observing!
I, too started my recent (past 10 years) studio ownership experience with a "Mackie/ADAT" type of place, but never would have had the balls, after many years in other "pro" studios, to hang out a shingle as a "recording studio". (Even though I charged my clients for "studio time") Just interesting, that's all. The times...they done changed....

TOO COOL!!!
I got a guy around here who like to make handwired class a tube guitar amps, maybe someday I can get him to build me one! At the old studio I was at we had an LA-2A and I LOVED it onalmost anything. How does yours work for you ?

Guido,

This sounds like the typical mindset that I talked about in my original post, not flaming just an observation. Some one else put it into better words, <"It's like buying a Ferrari and seeing the guy with a Geo ragtop getting some of the same chicks!">

I realize that in the great state of Nashville with the megga studios and the other 10,000 bedroom/basement/back porch studios that are on every corner there, you had better call yourself exactly what you are so YOU want get belittled the way you belittled us. I know that we are considered a "Project Studio" which I see you were very careful to make clear on your web site along with the pictures of all your "special" friends. Again, just an obsersation!

You must consider as I stated before that our location determines how we approach a lot of things here. Just like making a decision to stay with adats or "Step Up" to 2", to the name on our shingle. Most of the people here don't know the difference between "adats" and "2" tape" much less "Recording Studio" and "Project Studio"! For the record, when Mix published an article on us we were catagorised as a "Project Studio". http://www.oldhousestudio.com/images/Mix_ArticleColor.pdf

BTW, we are not just a mackie/adat studio, if you had looked at our equiptment list like the others here did you may be suprised! http://www.oldhousestudio.com/equiplist.htm

But thanks anyway for your observations!

In my opinion if you need a fancy car to get women then thats the first problem. :)

Use what you have. If it's ADATs or 2 inch PT,DP,LOgic, or Cubase. Whatever it is learn it use it. IF it works for your clients and yourself go for it. If want to upgrade or crossgrade do it because you HEAR a need to. Not for some "cool" contest. Remeber were making music, its art,expression.By all means have fun.
Yes some gear is not made at the same spec as others. Would'nt everyone rather have a Cadillac or Porsche (insert fave car here) But a mustang will get you there. Also like anything else maintenance. If we all know ADATs need more attention then thats what we have to do. My tech just informed me regarding a recent decision to by an old 2 inch machine that this was going to be something we are going to have to seriously learn to maintain. No one usually poo poos 2 inch machines for that.
I love what I can do in my computer DAW and love the sound of it. I also like my ADATs (1) M20 (1) XT 20 they are great.too. There is a big difference in the M20 and XT 20 sound and transport. (so is the price) HTH's

Let's put things into perspective here.

This is not a case of any of us poo-poo'ing ADAT's. This is a case of David's would-be clients poo-poo'ing them. It's a business we're talking about. If you open a quickie mart without a super-slushie machine, then somebody opens a bigger 7-11 across the street from you and they do have one, that's where everyone will go. You can't argue them thru the door by saying "But I have fountain soda with ice... that will cool you off just as well!" You need to be cooler, sexier, and get that damn super-slushie or you can kiss your lease goodbye.

In your basement, sure ADAT's are the bees knees. If you can get clients based on your work instead of what your mic closet looks like, great. But that is not the reality this guy is dealing with. People aren't telling him "you don't have enough Neumanns" or "that board sucks to track on" or "your product sounds like crap". They are saying "ADAT's? Ew... yuk." His business has encountered a very specific hurdle, and it can't be rationalized away.

Maybe you'd like the challenge of being a sales rep, trying to sell ADAT studio time to people who don't need, like, or want to go near ADAT's ever again. That's fine for you. But let this guy run his business the way he wants to.

Whoah, Nellie...or David....
I am not trying to rag anybody w/ an ADAT room! I made a KILLING with my ADAT/Mackie 8 bus configuration! How do you think I got the cash to buy this gear?
To quote you...
<"It's like buying a Ferrari and seeing the guy with a Geo ragtop getting some of the same chicks!">...I would never buy a Ferrari OR a Geo!
I never belittled you... I AM a project studio....a project studio on steroids!!!!

Those "special friends" are my attempt at the campy pix people put up to try and make thereselves seem more important...
Do you REALLY think I think it's "hip" to have pix up of me w/ REBA/Garth/RICHARD SIMMONS/Orville Redenbacher!!???!!!
(The coolest pic, btw, is the one w/ me and Jim Lovell!!!)It's a GAG! Who cares?I AM A PROJECT STUDIO! I WAS NOT DISSIN' YOU....just an observation. I bet you only got on me because you had time to kill while you backed up yer ADAT tapes???
To quote Warren Oates in the timeless masterpiece "Stripes"...."lighten up, Francis!

"Where have you been, soldier?"

"TRAINING, SIR!!"

"What kind of training, son?"

"AaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAARMY TRAINING, SIR!!"

By the way, I used ADAT's for years, and they were a godsend for me at the time. We had 'em for location recording, and they worked great for that purpose. Who wants to lug a 2" machine around, anyway?

I definitely feel ya on the "gear snobbery" thing, tho. Hey, be glad you don't hafta worry about whether your room sports the right SSL. :) Good lookin' place you guys are running, BTW.

On another note... I'm wondering how you guys (the Old House crew) like your Soundcraft Ghost console? I'm outfitting another little writing rig in the next couple weeks, and need some kinda inexpensive 8-bus mixer, but would like to go for something that's a cut above the Mackie. Whaddya think about the Soundcraft vs. the Mackie? Are they essentially in a similar category, or does the Soundcraft win? How are the EQ's, pre's, self-noise, etc.?

TIA for any input!

Sorry Guido, I guess I may have been a LITTLE sensitive! (You know how these artistic types can be) :o My Bad!!

But anyway I am glad to announce that Old House Recording Studio is NOW the proud owner of a....
87'MCI JH-24/24 2" Tape Machine!! :D
So now the world can kiss my A** Oh, sorry again, I just had one of those gratifying moments!! We were able to buy it local(no freight/crating HeHe) only two owners and in very good cond.

As for the subject of service, once we get our feet wet and have a quailified tech (which is the same Tech that has been doing the service) in a few times, Old House Scott and myself are more than qualified to do most of the daily tweeking and general maintance. The tech has to come down from Guido's back yard, $$$ needless to say we want to call him as little as possible.

We will still have our adats and can offer both platforms.

Thanks for all the input and suggestions!!!

BTW, we will take deliverly in a couple of weeks but in the mean time I will be needing a Tuschel harness, any suggestions? If needed I can build my own, but would like to buy one if possible. I will be terminating into a TT patch bay.

Thanks again :cool:

My point was neither I want a job nor was I asking to run his shop.

My point was use what you have.
Quite simple.

i just backed up my hard drives and stared and the 40 cd's it took trying to figure out how much room 2" reels would take for the same amount of music... [one reel is 1.8GB of data at 15ips using almost every inch of it] 26GB would be 30 reels. one weeks work, thats 1500 reels a year. 375 cubic feet of magnetic tape. whats a reel, about 5 lbs. thats 7500 lbs of tape a year. but thats just based on this past week, i have hundreds upon hundreds of cdr's in a small closet.

one thing i've noticed about bands is that all of the ones i work with and come to me wanting to work with me dont give a rats ass what i record on [nor what mic or pre for that matter], they only care about whats coming off it and how it sounds in the end. its really just studios and engineers that care what im using but seeing how its MY studio, i dont really care what other studios think... engineers just have their preference.

so who was belittling your setup?

"But when I talk to the guys at our local "Pro Studio" (Neve, SSL, Studer 2", you get the picture) or anyone else "Pro", they want to talk down the fact or should I say don't consider us as being for real. "

now you just need an API/SSL/NEVE... mmmmm, an API with GML.

Alphajerk wrote:
> one thing i've noticed about bands is that all of the ones i work with and come to me wanting to work with me dont give a rats ass what i record on [nor what mic or pre for that matter], they only care about whats coming off it and how it sounds in the end. its really just studios and engineers that care what im using but seeing how its MY studio, i dont really care what other studios think... engineers just have their preference.>

Absolutely Alpha, couldn't have put it better myself... Thanks

Simon :eek:

I think Alphajerk is correct. But, business wise in the case of the original poster, he has everything to make up a really nice pro facility. But, depending on what he is recording mostly, its either a new board or a PT system. A REALLY nice ProTools mix plus system can be had used for Under $15K, which would be a small investment compared to a sexy console (Trident 80, API, or anything above that cost-wise) Plus the Automation. I would say go for the ProTools as an intermediate step, it will draw business on its own merit above what you even have now, and will allow you to save up for the board, whether it be a nice analog console or digital board in the future when they starighten the shit out.