If you do a search of the archives you wil find many posts on this subject with many varying suggestions and opinions, all of which are very good.

Here is yet another set of suggestions.

kick= AKG D112
Snare= sm57
hat = Neumann km 184
toms = Sennheiser 421 (x3)
oveurheads = Audio Technica at-4050 (x2)

This is a good start and has room for improvement depending on how much you may or may not want to spend, and your personal taste. And if you can, audition as many mics different as you can, like a pair of AKG 451B's for overheads, sennheiser md 441 on snare, or an audix D-4 on kick etc...

Good luck

1@snare drum mic
1@bass drum mic
3@designated tom mics
2@overheads
1@condensor for the hi-hat

Snare: SM57 or ATM Pro 35
Kick Drum: AKG D112 (imo preferred) or Audix D6
Toms: ATM; Pro 35's
Overheads: (on a budget) Studio Projects; C4's
(cost not an issue)
AKG; 451's / 460's / 480's / 414's ..
Hat: same as overheads ... or an AKG 414

My feeling is the hat usually doesn't need micing. I can get all the hat I need from the overheads and snare mics most the time ... but I usually mic it anyway just in case .. You may be able to do without.

Recently, I have been tracking a lot of drums with a D112 on the kick, a 57 on the snare and 2 overheads placed about 2.5 feet apart above the rack toms at cymbal height ... this has been working very well.

dont forget the Sennheiser 421 as a staple in many studios for toms

You really ought to do a search on this topic since it has come up many times before. As you will see there are all kinds of solutions for drums, for instance:

1@snare drum mic - I like a Gefel UM92.1
1@bass drum mic - Sounddelux E47, Beyer M88 or Royer R121
3@designated tom mics - MD421 or whatever hyper-cardiod is in the closet (I don't use tom mics in the mix very much for more than placing samples or even at all).
2@overheads - These should be your best mics since this is where most of the sound for the drums is defined. Most of the snare, hat, cymbals, tom sound and stereo imaging come from these guys. I really like Earthworks QTC30 or QTC1 SD omni's because of the really well defined high end.

1@condensor for the hi-hat - whatever you have left, I don't remember actually ever using the high hat mic in a mix.

Just one more point of view.

Steve

you use a ribbon on the bass just wondering about placemant?

Ribbons are very vulnerable to blast of air destroying the ribbon, which is a reason they are not usually used in situations where air displacements occur (like in a kick drum ) I would not risk my RCA D77 on anybody's drums, no matter what they paid. (60 yr old mics don't come around everyday) I used to put my D77 on guitar cabs as well (and got a sweet, sweet sound on clean guitar) until I started tp get paranoid about air displacement there as well. I mostly use my D77 now for VO's and some female vocals where nothing else would do.

O.K., I'll add my $.02 as well...

Kick - AKG D112 (curious about Audix D6, may try it)
Snare - Shure SM57 or Audix D1
Toms - Audix D2 (one for each two toms if on budget)
Overheads - Oktava MC012 (x2)
Hat - Oktava MC012

I also get most of the hat and tom sound from the overheads. I do mix in a bit of the close-miked tom sound, and usually just a touch of the hat mic if I need to improve the definition a bit.

FWIW I recently played drums for a session where my snare was miked with a Neumann 193 (I THINK that is what it was) and placed to the side of the snare. I assume this was intended to pick up more of the sound of the drum, but on some songs, I sure missed the punch you get with a good old 57 just over the top head. He also used 57s on my toms, and while they sounded good, I believe other mics are better suited to capture the full round sound I get naturally out of my Yamaha Maple Custom Absolutes. The 57s made them sound like everybody else's drums.

Have fun!

Rob

im still just wandering about the placement of the ribbon in the kick? i understand there frailty though the royer 121 is suposabley in destructable.

I also place the Gefel on the shell more often than on the skin. Its a really cool sound that complements the overheads really well.

Regtarding the R121 on kick. It sounds great! and it wasn't my idea, I actually RTFM that came with the mic. Page 14 of the manual describes how to address the mic for drums and percussion. I use the typical ribbon methods of leaning it forward 45 degrees or sometimes alittle to the side and forward. The key is to keep it somewhere around 18 inches away and put it in the sound field but not in the wind field.

Anyway it sounds extremely natural. Really nice sound for Jazz or Folk or Blues or other ambient settings.

Again its good to know your gear and how it works. If you do not understand the failure mechanisms of ribbons then absolutely do not try this. IF you know what you are doing and are in aposition to control the setup then there is no reason not to.

Steve

The Royer manual is available [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.royerlab…"] here[/]="http://www.royerlab…"] here[/]. Check out the diagrams on page 16 & 17 (PDF page numbers) for details on micing a kick with a ribbon.

Steve

In an ideal world without budget constraints....

Kik- Audix D6 with Electrovoice RE20 (kilck and boom)

Snare- Neumann KM84 top (crisp and clear)
Beyer M160 bottom (the real snare sound)

Toms- Sennheiser MD 409 on high toms (why dont they still make this one???)
ATM25 on floor toms (BIG WHOOOOMP...tight and focused)

Hat- definately Neumann KM184 (edgier than the KM84)

Overheads- Either...Neumann U87i's ( I've recorded a ton of drummers with these as overheads...nothing much better)
Coles 4038's (or STC's if you could find em)

Room mics- Front of kit...Neumann U47 (just an okay mic)*
Up high in corner mics...Coles 4038's

Alternative mics....Shure SM81....Audix D4/D2....AT4033....Shure SM57 UnidyneIII....Beyer 422....Beyer 201....Beyer M500....Sennheiser MD441/421.....

All through API console.

* just kidding

And MOST important.....a drummer who understands arrangement and taste...and can play it again 'just as good, only better'.
Or as The Rickster says "A high standard of standardness"....

I too like a condensor on the snare top or shell. I usually use a MK012 and a 57(phase aligned) on the top head. Or a 57 and a TLM 103 on the shell with a NT2 on the bottom of the snare. I get pretty good, pretty typical sounds with a D112 on kick but I'm going to start experimenting with LD condensors on kick and toms.

Davedog, I've heard you and others talk about the ATM25 and ATM PRO 35 for toms and kick. How do these sound compared to 57's for toms? I don't like 57's at all for toms. I'd like to get a good set of mics for toms and bass cab. 421's would rock but pretty expensive. What's up with the MD 409? I have a 609 (new) they look similar and are supposed to sound similar but are they good for toms? Are the 409's only availible used? How do the ATM 25's sound on rack toms and bass cab? Sorry for so many questions. Thanks

J-3....The ATM25 (not the 'pro 25') is a mic you could use on the entire toms/kick/bass cabs if you want to..Its very good and at around $135 new its a bargain... The Sennheiser MD409 is NOTHING like its cheap imitator they pass off as 'similar'...Its a mic that most guys will not give up so the availability is limited.They are IMHO one of the best mics for drums/marshall cabs/bass cabs and even a vocal...I've used them when nothing else would work including old Neumann's on vocals. The ATM Pro 35 is a neat little lapel sized mic and is very handy for micing large sets as its tiny and sounds good to boot. The best comparison I know of is the Beyer 422.

So Davedog, have you used the Audix D2? It's pretty much the same price as the ATM 25. I might go buy one of each and compare then get the one that works best for toms. I've never used those little clip condensors, how do they sound?

Reguarding bass, I may just keep using a 57 untill I can get a RE-20 or SM-7. I've done some experimenting with my R-121, TLM 103, AT 4050 etc and find that I like the 57 about a foot back off the bass cab. What have you been using on bass lately?

Also left out of the overhead category wasR121's, Earthworks TC30's or SRO's, Geffel M300's, and Josephson C42's for overheads? Also, Josephson E22's for toms look pretty awesome. He did'nt list a budget so I thought I'd chime it in. Good luck in your search.

I apologise for the repeated post, didn't think to do a search i'm afraid! Thanks very much for all the advice, at the moment i'm swaying towards the D112 for bas drum and 421's for toms, but there's no rush, i don't really need to get for 6 months, gives me plenty of time for experimentation.

As for the hi-hat mic'ing, because of the nature of the bands i usually record (predominantely hardcore/metal bands) i like a strong hi-hat in the mix, it'but obviously it's personal preference more than anything.

J3...I own both Audix D2's and ATM25's...I love em both...For a heavier tom sound the ATM25 is very good..If you want a crisp upfront attack with zero bleed from other pieces of the kit then the D2 is the mic. I dont like it (the D2) on low toms its just too quick and clicky...i love the D4 there or the ATm25...One great use I've found lately for the Audix is a harmonica mic...A D2 or a D1 works really well for this...It gives you a complete range of tonality of a harp, not that old-timey blues harp but a real in-yer-face kinda sound...The difference between the two mics seems to be simply a different tonal curve. For bass I use a DI and when we use an amp I'll put either the D4,the ATM25, or an ADK Area 51(frankenstein version) out about a foot. An RE20 will work perfectly for this. I forgot to also mention the Royer...we recently did a replacement track on the drums and used a stereo Royer for the overhead.....Gosh, the cymbals sounded so good and translated so well at the mix...I gotta say I was deeply impressed by this mic.And the pres were simply ProTools mic pres...the 192 I think.

How would you lot rate the Sennheiser 421's in terms of spill from other parts of the kit?

I like 421's or ev 468's for toms. 421 or D112 for kicks. Try out an AT 4051 (not 4050) for OH or HH.

I too have the audix mics... love the D2's and D6. D4 also works very well on the floor toms.

Does anyone here have an opinion on the audix ADX-50 overheads? They came in my mic kit and that's what I use. (Can't afford anything else right now hehe)

for me :

Kick - EV RE20 plus recorderman's SUB mic, killer combo
Snare - SHURE SM57 or EV ND/468 especially if you're tight for space
Toms - Sennheiser 421
Overheads - if you're going to close mic the toms, AKG 451b or SHURE SM81, if not, LD condensers, I use SHURE KSM44s or AKG C414ULS. Or the ubiquitous U87 if you've got that kind of money
Hats - AKG C451b or SHURE SM81
Room Mic - LD condenser, Neumann U87

Unlike Kurt, I can't seem to get good sound out of the D112. The "vintage" AKG D12e, on the other hand, is really nice for kicks with the front skin still in place and it works well on acoustic bass or micing bass speakers.

My advice is to go with mics that can be used for other things. The Audix D6 is fine on the kick but the RE20 can be used on lots of other things. Same goes for the 421s, they can be used on kick as well. Before I got the RE20, I used the 421 with recorderman's SUB mic and got very good results.

Personally I think the EV 468 shounds much better than the audix for toms. Both have a nice footprint for tight spaces though.

sproll wrote: I too have the audix mics... love the D2's and D6. D4 also works very well on the floor toms.

Does anyone here have an opinion on the audix ADX-50 overheads? They came in my mic kit and that's what I use. (Can't afford anything else right now hehe)

i used to use the ADX-50 for my OH's untill one crapped out :(. for what they are they are pretty good. i found them alittle dark and they have a peak around 2K wich got to my ears after awhile. i found that they best worked behind the drums but that might just be my room. now i use AT3035's as my OH's, the ADX-50 now does snare duty (using the freq resonce to my advantage) and combined with a 57 gives a nice snare sound.

dave

one aproach would be to start by just using overheads (as good as you can get - condensors or ribbons) and see what's misiing from the sound, then start to work out the mics that would best fill the gap. e.g Because of your room, the snare might come through really well and that might affect how you'd want to mic it.
I often use one Rode Classic Mk1 about head height and 6 or 8 feet back from the kit, facing the drummer's face. All I need then is a bit of hard kick which I get from a D112. Thing is a poor drummer (touch wise) or a poor kit or a poor room will make that a useless aproach.

on a budget, those octava mc012s sound killer. i was really, really impressed using them as overheads. they also sound really good as room mics, but out-weighed a lot of the mics i used as overheads.

-chris

the octava mc012 are cheap enught to warent the purchace of one or two but they sound really harsh in my opinon. i would opt for the studio projects c4, and i hear the R0DE nt5 are good though ive not tryed the R0DE.

nt5

on the nt5's... i've got a pair.
not reallt used them on set yet (although that's why i bought them).... but in general, I've been very happy. for acoustic guitar, i've gotten great results....

i got the c4s for my closet because sumtimes the sound needs a SMC but i gerally like LDC as overheads.

WHAT STYLE

Good drums for One style of music....is NOT good for other.

this is a bit extreme but, an example : Iggy Pop's - Raw Power

drums are razor thin, punchy, sharp, sloppy, overcompressed
and then there is this harshly nasal drone in the final mix
....one of the worst in all of recording history
.....BUT this is why it is PERFECT for a "Punk" album

If you want the sound from a Queen Recording,
your going to have to try harder, and spend a bit more
time and money on it...like renting a room...or an auditorium
and running six atmosphere mics out to the middle and last rows...
and close mic the who set with the best you can rent,
and figure out later how to get the pan right on 13 mics

but this is so tangental
...most of use don't sound like Queen anyway
even WITH all that equipment time and money.
so it's Moot.

I myself...like a nasty garage sound sometimes,
I've still got a punk streak in me....

I've gotten some great mics recently
but I STILL prefer the sound of:

One SM58 hovering between
the HiHat Stand and the Bass Drum
aimed up at the underside of the snare
about 1 foot from the snare....real high gain
and A D112 on the kick....
NO Compression at all, and I'll just put a low pass on the kick.

SUPER SIMPLE...and it does NOT sound like some "Pro" recording.
But the music I do is synth-ish sort of Industrial-Metal.
...I like a nasty sort of mix...

NOTE: I may not aim for what your aiming for.

if someone wants a Pro-ish sort of sound,
I'd mic it totally different,
AKG414 TLII , or AT4033s (LE) on the cymbals,
a couple of Ribbons 5 - 10 feet away, WAY over-head....
and Pro35's on the toms,
I'd still use a 58 on the snare..
but two of them, one on the top head with a sloping aim
and another (or sometimes a 57) on the bottom head aiming
straight perpendicular to the head directly at the snares
tighten the compression up,

on the under the snare mic
and cut the level WAY down so they are just a hint of rattle

and I usually sink the WHOLE drum mix WAY back...

I like the Bass Guitar or synth to weight the overall sound.

...but if I'm going to go through all of that,
most of the time I'll just use a sequence anyway...
and sub in some of my own samples into the sequence...
The machine can play tighter too...or use a v-drum set
and mix up a group of cymbal samples....to give a good fake....

My reason is when I hear live drums,
especially when junxtapoz against synth drums,
I don not want it to sound like a pristine studio recording...

I want to hear the EXTREME reality of it.
...the nastiest and sharpest possible, complete with
mistakes and the noise...and the drummer farting in time....

Think Reality TV....and then think about the camera type
that those reality shows use...the cinimatography of those
shows is TOTALLY TOTALLY different then what they use
on a more traditional Televison program.

if your spending time giving a Pro sound to a Punk Band,
its like giving hand turned cymbals, a pair of Brushes
and a vintage Calf Skin set to the drummer of Slipknot...
....doesn't match up...it JUST doesn't jive.

I'd call it an extension of instrumentation.

It's Mostly a matter of what your AIMING FOR.

Pick a target sound and chose your tools appropriately.

the best tool you have, is your imagination.

For those on a budget like I was...

Audix DP5 drum kit for $650.(with 4 really nice drum clips!)
D1 snare,
(2) D2s Toms
D4 Floor Tom
D6 Kick
Studio Project C4s for overheads $350 for a pair.

I am happy. Audix Drum mics are great and C4 are sound good to me in this application as well.

I use the SM-81 on the hi hat.