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anonymous 29 January 2003

Compare, contrast.

I have NS-10M's. Is there any reason for me to sell my 10M's and Reveals (and eat the extra $ difference) for 1000M's?

Thanks-
.nick

Comments

realdynamix Wed, 01/29/2003 - 12:47

Originally posted by millionVALVE:
Compare, contrast.

I have NS-10M's. Is there any reason for me to sell my 10M's and Reveals (and eat the extra $ difference) for 1000M's?

Thanks-
.nick

Keep the NS-10M's and get the NS-1000M's at a price you feel comfortable with and enjoy both. Can't comment on the Reveals.
I love the NS-1000M's in my project studio. (Dead Link Removed)
--Rick

EdWray Thu, 01/30/2003 - 06:47

I'm not going to be set up until March due to a total reorganization of the studio including construction of a new desk, etc., to get the spacing right. Bill Roberts has been tutoring me on the setup. He's the man!! Right now I have them hooked up to my home entertainment system and have listened to all my CDs with a way low end stereo. Even so I can tell that there is no hiding a bad mix. One mix in particular that was dear to my heart is now screaming for a total remix or even retracking. Some cuts sound absolutely stunning while others sound like ass. So I'm getting that there ain't no hiding crap behind hype when you're using them IMVHO. I got 'em cause I want an honest represntation of the source material and so far that's what I'm getting, which I'm not getting with the current setup. I haven't heard the NS 10s so I can't compare. Bill and others here are much more qualified for that.

audiowkstation Fri, 02/14/2003 - 01:54

Two different animals dyed from the same wool.

NS1000 have the most pure 350 to 2K and at no time are you left with dissapearing parts. You can hear every note of every instrument. NS1000's are seamless from the pedal tones to beyond 20K. They virtually dissapear. They are very sensitive to changes in the mix. Like a scope, they let you fine tune and when it locks in place, it is dead on. You can trust them, although the proper setup is crucial.

NS10's prefer to be slammed some to use them as a "back off" device. You put your mix up on NS10's and keep backing off on things that sound unnatural. Goal of the ns10's is a hat trick... like pulling a rabbit out of one. The goal is to make the ns10's (sans lowest FQ's) sound better than anything you have ever heard. This is when the NS10's Really become the tool of choice is for those that use them that way. NS10's are dynamically accurate to the human condition (hence why people hate them is because of fletcher/munson) and they do not make things automatic. You actually have to be an engineer to work them properly.

NS1000's do it all, all the time.

NS1000's simply have another octave and a half or more of low frequency extention and are much more detailed in the finer aspects of reproduction. The lack of mud allows you to get it right, everytime. They basically are No Limit reproducers.

audiowkstation Sat, 02/15/2003 - 04:14

I find it amusing when folks say there NS1000 do not go below 40hZ

NOT!

Mine and Ricks can hit 20hZ with NO rolloff.

Funny thing, head-end equipment, speaker cable and setup are the key.

I have never heard a speaker hit 17hZ at 110dB like these can. The walls in the bathroom litterally move about 1/8 inch.

No muff too tough for them.

anonymous Mon, 02/17/2003 - 14:28

Any of you use NS10M's with subwoofers? I love my 10's to bits, even the tightness of the lowend (ok, as in what's there!) but was just wondering if anyone has had any joy with such a setup.

Funny Bill, but in retrospect your comments on the 10's in mixing ring very true! Never thought of it from that point of view, but the whole time I was mixing my band's last album it felt like it was a process of working in eliminating the bad rather than improving the good...and I hope that's not because we suck! Anyway, guess that's what I like them for- they tell me when my mixing is shit!
:s:

Bjorn

audiowkstation Mon, 02/17/2003 - 14:42

You are using them proper, and the mix will result.

Only a pair of subwoofers is good, crossover around 55 to 65 (60) play with it. Single sub is a detrimental device, must be in stereo, two of them.

Another non sub translation for bass is look at cone excursion when doing kick and bvass line. The kick "shall" move the cone X2 than the bass line. Watch them and it will be apperent tonality wise as well.

Subs really should not be heard. any Ummmmmm sound from the sub is bad..should be the impact and only the impact and the pedal tones below low E (42) of the bass guitar. The subs should just add a very small amount of weight to low E on the bass and not colour what the ns10's are doing. I like a 12dB/Cotave on the high pass (or even 6) and a 24dB/Octave on the low pass.(subs)

At no time should you "hear" the subs, they should be in stereo, but rather, they fill the rolloff. They simply should not contain any audable 75hZ.

Hope this helps!

NS1000's on the other hand...Different beast.

realdynamix Mon, 02/17/2003 - 14:59

Originally posted by TC:
I'm not familiar with the NS1000s. Are they Yamaha (I didn't find them on the Yamaha website)? Where can I get info?

Thanks,

TC

The NS-1000M speaker is available in Japan and is known as the NS-1000X. But, watch E-bay, or other sources for a mint vintage pair of them and a discount. I am still looking for the original cut sheet on the speakers, have not had any luck there yet.
Good luck,
--Rick

anonymous Wed, 02/19/2003 - 19:31

Yes, but the connoisseur will still be able to buy the Japanese 1000X's, right?

To answer my question, I'd guess that a new pair of 1000X's with shipping from Japan would be about $2k, though.

I shoulda plunked down for the pair that went for $510 + shipping. I knew it. I emailed the guy who won, and he knew what he got for what. Lucky bastard.

.nick

audiowkstation Thu, 02/20/2003 - 14:16

I also have NS200MA's that have the same tweeters, 5 inch cone mid with beyel. dust cap on mids and the carbon fiber 10 inch just like the 12" of the X model. They are warmer than the NS1000's by a wide margin (woofer).

To get the X model, first hurdle, you have to get through customs, not an easy feat since Yamaha decided against it. Remember, the beyrellium is a stratigic mineral in the creation of a thromonuclear weapon and it is under strick control for importation. Their is not enough of this material in NS1000's to case problems but since the tighting of controls and careful measurement techniques of all shipping, especially radioactive materials, I would consider it a dead issue. OF course the NS1000's will not rot your teeth out, but the material is present, Yamaha does not ship them and it would be up to you to find a sutible way to obtain them. I would guess total cost to be close to 5600 dollars per pair.

Given the fact they are shipped as "electronic equipment" they would certainly be checked and possably confiscated. I just have not tried it.

An indivigual may could do it. I do have some friends in Tokyo that could look into this but then again, look at the used stash out there.

I certainly would love to have another pair but timing is everything.

cjenrick Thu, 02/20/2003 - 16:23

millionValve, don't feel bad. I got snipped on my bid for some NS1000's with about 5 seconds to go. Happens all the time on ebay. To make matters worse, my bid was for only about $564 and the guy was a few miles away so I could have saved the $200 shipping charge! ouch! After you lose , you have to use the sour grapes approach to therapy: oh well, the wolfer probably scraped, and the tweeters were probably fried, they were probably stolen, a better pair for cheaper will come around soon, NS 10's probably would have matched up with my power amp better, etc...

This computer geek I work with says that professional ebayer's have a special computer or program that they use just for ebay. It allows them to win easier, I don't know how it works, maybe they can see your max bid or something, and it might have quicker access, or it might counteract every higher bid automatically or something.

anonymous Fri, 02/21/2003 - 06:49

jenrick-

Ha! I get sniped all the time. When that happens (for personal, Karmic reasons) I always send them an email congratulating them if they also got a good deal.

The program you refer to is something like an instant bidder (from some of the harcore e-bay dorks on their forum). Note- *I* was just *visiting*. This is one that I've heard of, at least. No back buttons, etc.

But you're right: Until I find the best pair at a price I can afford, they will all be fizzy, DOD-bugged monstrosities that cost too much for the winning bidder!

best-
.nick

audiowkstation Sat, 02/22/2003 - 12:30

The weigh about 55lb each, warm in the 150 to 300 range. Woofer is quick but thin matarial (carbon fiber) and they can be bottomed where I know no way to bottom the 1000's unless you are running 1500 to 2500 watts a channel.

I have ran the 1000's at peaking 1250 a side (RMS around 400) with no damage...but remember, they are rated at 60 watts!

The NS1000's I have are +/- 0.7dB from 20 hZ to 17K and the 200's in this room are +/- 1.7dB from 29 to 18K. the bump is at 200 hz, gentle but audible. Room placement can and will change everything.

anonymous Sat, 02/22/2003 - 21:23

Bill-

That all sounds good to me becuase I just snagged me a pair of NS-200Ma's.

Including shipping from across the country, I got them for about $130 more than you said you got yours for. Considering you said you got yours for a real deal, I'm comfortable with the price I got. The thing is, is that they're an unmatched pair. (I *did* get the guy down 20 bux because of this, though.) They ARE mirrored L/R, though.

To re-calibrate them I have a plan of super-heating the backs of the monitors in the oven to loosen up the cone from the voice coil, then pump a logarithmic test tone of 20-20k (with a bell-shaped volume curve from 0-120dB) into both of them, simultaneously. I figure this should do it. Not many people know about this trick...

...really, is there any cheap way to re-calibrate them? What do people do when they replace a driver? That "un-matches" the set, too. Right?

Also: I'd love to have the 1000's but I can't find a pair that I can afford, and, well, I'm not exactly a pro. Yet.

The 200's will certainly go lower than either my passive Reveals and my NS-10M's, which is a lot of what I'm looking for.

My "room" is my basement, and probably has the worst acoustics of any space known to man. In a more perfect world, The Little Tykes Kitchen set would make for a great bass trap.

best-
.nick

audiowkstation Sun, 02/23/2003 - 06:15

I really like them, the 200's, closest thing to the 1000's I have heard and they benefit from the horizonal mounting with the tweeters in the inside listening position.

Really nice speakers.

They are very smooth and detailed. Hell, I did not know they existed, I actually traded 2 pairs of auratones for them.

The superheating you are talking about, I have a "break in" CD for that purpose.

What you are suposed to do is face the speakers toward each other, out of phase and run the CD for 5 hrs at 33% power (5dB from MAX).

It has tone bursts, sweeps, pink and white noise, bombardments of energy and VLF tones (1 to 4hZ, very hard on an amp. Class AB amplifiers usually overheat and shut down at 33% as this is the most ineffecient power for them.

Be careful!

Just running Pink noise at 5 watts should actually do it.

anonymous Sun, 02/23/2003 - 07:04

Dude, you are worth your weight in...beryllium!

Any suggestions for a burn-in CD? It sounds like a great investment.

Is any of this worth anything? [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.testdisc…"]testdisc website[/]="http://www.testdisc…"]testdisc website[/]

Also when the speakers are out of phase, does that mean one speaker's connections are inverted +/-, or are both speakers' connections inverted? My knowledge of electronics is woeful, and my poor Gramps (who tried to teach me electronics all my life) is rolling over in his grave.

My power amp is an Alesis RA-100 (75w/channel into 8 ohms), and I'm assuming it's Class A. Not like it says it anywhere on it or in the manuals, though.

For the 200's, is EQ'ing the 150-300 down 1-3 dB acceptable?

Thanks-
.nick

audiowkstation Sun, 02/23/2003 - 07:32

When loudspeakers are 180 degrees out of phase/ one speaker is reversed..

When facing each other, with about 6 inches of separation, they are effectively cancelling each other.

Here are the terms.

In phase:

Both speakers enjoy the same polarity and all pistons are acting the same direction.

Out of phase 180 degrees.

Loudspeaker components are working in apposing directions.

Inverted phase.

Both loudspeakers are working in phase with each other, but working 180 degrees out of phase with the signal.

True phase:

All loudspeakers are working directly in phase with the original source.

Phase coherency:

Loudspeaker componets are controlled (crossover does this as well as freqency separation) to operate at minimum or zero phase shift at crossover freqencies. NS10/NS200/NS590/NS670/NS1000/NS10000 are phase coherent at +/- 2 degrees at X over frq.

I have yet to see the mighty NS10000. It was an anniversary (25th) special speaker to ring credance to the NS1000. It is reported to weigh 472LBS each and cost close to one million. I am still reserching them...but no info yet.

Guess I need to call the old Man....and find out.

Supposed to be a superspeaker. I could imagine 8 pairs of NS1000's stacked. I would die a slow and joyful death from emotion.

Reported to go flat to 7hZ

anonymous Sun, 02/23/2003 - 07:45

Holy Shite!

I've heard of the 10000's but never knew their weight or price. Basically, they're a publicity stunt, as you alluded to.

So, once more for the slow kid: When I'm calibrating and facing my speakers together, and they're cancelling each other out,I don't reverse any wires. Is that it?

Did you see that CD burn-in link?

.nick

realdynamix Sun, 02/23/2003 - 08:04

Originally posted by Bill Roberts:
Remember, the beyrellium is a stratigic mineral ... ...Their is not enough of this material in NS1000's to case problems but since the tighting of controls and careful measurement techniques of all shipping, especially radioactive materials...

Ya, so you if you have a pair, it shows up as a dot on the detector satellite and all pairs of NS-1000's can be located. I think I'm getting paranoid :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: , LOL.

--Rick

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