Well Jon, mastering would do a great deal for your song, i can't say exactly what for every mastering engineer operates differently but id say turn the drums down a bit in your mix (toms especially), if you were to give it a go at mastering, you may be doinig more harm then good so i would say go with pro mastering

i downloaded your mix and i will do a rough master for you and then send it to you so you can hear what mastering will genrally do (mind that i am not at quite ballpark with some of the other MEs in this site), ill get back to you later tonight and ill post a link, best of luck. 8-)

I did a quick master, note i said quick because i didn't spend too much time (i also forgot to do fades), im in a bit of a rush, but anyway, i have it posted online, i will remove it in 5 days in case i am violating any copyright infringements, best of luck, this is just to show you how that mastering can help, note that i am not a pro ME and the quality of my work is mediocre compared to pros on this site. 8-)

http://

Edit: you said you mastered the mix.... what did you use to master it cause the mix didn't sound mastered at all off of that site you gave.

First off let me say thanks for the response and your input is greatly appreciated.

Well like you said, when I master it myself it usally sounds worse afterwards. The only thing I do when I master is bring up the volume by using a maximizer. I don't really know what else to do.

What exactly do you mean when you say it didn't sound mastered at all? Please go into detail. What makes a mastered mix sound like a mastered one?

What did you do to it when you mastered it?

What would you use fades for?

You mentioned that the drums seemed to loud. I would agree. But they didn't seem that loud until I bounced the song down to a low quality mp3.

I hate to say it but I can't really tell that much of a difference after your mastering job. But then again I am listening to it through crappy computer speakers, and on top of that the site wouldn't even let me download the MP3 version so I had to download something that was even lower quality.

Hey John, yeah i listened to it up there for the first time today and the site made the mp3 sound absolutely horrible, the wav sounded so much better. What i meant by it didn't sound mastered was well... there was too much low end and not enough high end, you did a GREAT job mixing the cymbals and crash but in the mastering stage you left them very unheard, also i would say that the song sounded "boxy". Also i heard LOTS of background noise is the song. The first thing i did was i loaded it into Seqoia and gave both the seqoia noise reduction a try and the waves x-noise reduction a try. Waves x-noise did the best job in removing the noise a wanted. Next i ran it through a mastering Eq, and i worked mostly with high end boosting at 3kHz and giving a huge 3db boost at 10kHz, and some at 6kHz, i can't quite remember where else i boosted, i then ran it through a different EQ and gave different boosts (i know my EQs quite well and some do better at different frequencies), then i rolled off very low bass and high shelved the tops. Then came a compressor, i set a simple 2:1 -10db threshold and i worked with the attack, release functions till it sounded perfect, i did some other things too i believe i filtered DC offset (i believe it found that it was at -.02 db), and .... there might have been some delay but truly i can't remember because i was in such a rush last night.

The main problem in the mix was the overdomintating drums and the too loud guitars, when the vocals come make sure to see that everything runs smoothely by well, maybe compressing each part harded in the mix and maybe adding some reverb to each drum channel to put the drums "farther back" in the mix.

Best of luck 8-)

p.s. - the fades are there so that you don't have a too loud introduction to the song, but i don't think your song really needs fades, maybe a little fade in fade out, but not much.

p.s - if you'd like the wav i prob could find some way to get it to you

p.s p.s - also one more thing, remember that i am not quite in league with the pro mastering engineers here :( , if one of them responds that could be great help to you, the master i did was to the best of my skills, a master that they could do would be to the best of their skills, and their knowledge and setup will beat the crap out of mine anyday 8-)

John,
To put it as simple as I can (pre) mastering is the final artistic process to make every song and project as good as possible. Every project benefits from proper mastering. Some may need a little work, some (especially indie stuff) can sound dramatically better.
My analogy about mastering without experience is like asking someone to play guitar on a track who has never played before but has a new Strat. Or using someone who has playd hours everyday for years. Which one would you pick?

I would hope that you are not talking about me Joe :(

... cause i can play guitar very well :wink:

Benny
Of course not. I 'm sure you rock like a mo fo! Guess I'll find out tomorrow.

he cut out the low end rumble get a pair of phones and listen to your song man this "master" is now very tinny you cut a tad to much low end benny and im no mastering engineer but i can tell there is no bass presence other then that he did a good job id bring up the low end a lil more and i mean very slight and id cut a lil on the 10 k a tad to much have you listened to many metal mixes benny? just curious

benny im sorry but a and bing them it sounded better when it was left alone a tad bass heavy yes but more natural sounding i do belive ive read this in the master engineers handbook if your doing eq changes over 2 db in diffrence you should have remixed the song before mastering something to that effect

now im curious if could do better im gonna give it a whirl tell me what you think of this "master" as i said im no mastering engineer but i think i can do better then what i heard http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/?aid=2997/singles give a listen if you like ill explain the process i used

The wav sounded totaly different may i add, maybe i should get a different mp3 converter, you are right, after the conversion many things were exagerrated, i will try to find a free ftp server so that i can load the wav, if anyone has one that they can loan for a few days or that would be great. 8-)

EDIT: I got a new mp3 converter, this sounds almost exactly like the wav, please visit my new site for the mp3 and then you can critique my work

http://

doulos, id say you underdid the guitar and the bass guitar, maybe its just the mp3, i don't know. 8-)

doulos21 wrote: have you listened to many metal mixes benny? just curious

I was thinking the same thing.

doulos21 wrote: now im curious if could do better im gonna give it a whirl tell me what you think of this "master" as i said im no mastering engineer but i think i can do better then what i heard http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/?aid=2997/singles give a listen if you like ill explain the process i used

Listened to the track, I like it. Its very difficult for me to tell much of a difference becuase I'm listening on crap computer speakers.

The mix seems to sound more smooth, seamless, and cohesive. But maybe I'm just hearing things.

i hope that you visited my new site to check out the newly convertedm mix before you reply. :!:

bennyg wrote: i hope that you visited my new site to check out the newly convertedm mix before you reply. :!:

That's the problem. That site won't let me download your MP3 because I'm not a member.

johnjm Its the wonders of multiband compression. 6 bands to be honest. The only eq i did was subtractive eq and its hard to tell the way to master it cause there is no vocals if its scremo metal or even heavy metal as the guitars sound the cymbols should be further back in the mix, wich is what i did, wich is oposite of what benny did. I used a shelf eq and lightly brought down from 7k and up down like 1.2 db then used a multi band compressor locked around 7-12 k with a very natural compression and brought the gain down around 2 db. The mid bands i brought down around 4 db thats so the low end and the mids blends creating the smooth transition between the bands. I cranked the low end 85-220 up around 4 db to add presence but not volume to the bass and i left the tone of the guitar tracks alone as a mastering engineer its not your job to change the tone of the material only the polish and i think i did that very well. the overall volume came about 3 db on the spectrum analyser commerial cds in this type of music hit around 6 to 8 db but being compressed already i think i did ok. I only played with the song for 20 mins. and in that time i was able to give the mix better stero imaging, more of a tighter feel, a more seamless sound, over all more bottom end without cranking an eq through the roof a lite exciter on the cymbols and overall a tad bit more volume. Not bad for 20 mins and less then a thousand dollars in gear imho

stream it 8-)

benny now not only is your master tinny its clipping badly i can hear clipping at a volume of 20 out of 99 on the soundclick player if you want to be a mastering engineer may i suggest that you learn to hear what clipping sounds like and double check your masters to a spectrum analyzer when starting out also i suggest you listen to some metal cds and hear how they sound cause this type of music the guitars are almost always bottom heavy and the cymbols are further back in the mix. The guitars are as prominent as the vocals sometimes a lil more then the vocals depends. This sounds absolutely opposite of every metal cd i own which btw i have around 200 metal cds i listen to metal music daily.

benny i just ran the statistics for your mastered mp3 out of 32,768 samples you were clipping 5,056 samples about 1/6 of the song you averaged around -3 db peak amplitude and i ran mine as well i averaged -4 db also your high end chopped off at 16k while mine went as high as 20k i think your mp3 converter is at fault there so you got 1 db volume over my master with the added clipping of about 1/6th of the entire song not a fair compromise for 1 db of volume i think

Wow!!
Are you comparing mastering jobs in MP3?!?
It's like comparing the quality of photos that has been run through a blender!!

If you would like an opinion from one of the ME's then upload the PRE/POST files in WAV, AIF or SDII to a server for us to download.

yea for real i agree, but even in mp3 i can hear what clipping sounds like. I'm trying to be nice here and show the guy through software cause obviously he cant hear it or he would never have posted it. It's situations like this that makes me really wonder is mastering worth it. From the gear this guy has it shows me that even with a good 10 to 20 thosand in gear you can still mess up your work by sending it to the wrong "mastering" engineer. This is not the first time this has happened to me and ive had to master my own work several times cause i wasnt happy with the end result. and i did a better job with under a thousand in gear sad really sad.

Easy there!!
Maybe he forgot to listen to it carefully in mp3 before posting it?
Or maybe it's a monitoring problem?

Ammitsboel i hope your right but if you read the really long thread you would see this is the second attempt he made to remaster his own work.

ps die thread die die die

Ammitsboel wrote: Wow!!
If you would like an opinion from one of the ME's then upload the PRE/POST files in WAV, AIF or SDII to a server for us to download.

Hey I'd love to upload it in wav. form so one of you guys could tinker with it, but where am I gonna upload an 80mb file?

hey doulos you were right, since in never listened to it in wav, i dindn't notice the clipping, but i wanted to make sure that your monitoring setup was working because i monitor on mackie 824s, not a bad set of monitors, and i don't see or hear the clipping, i even loaded it into Seqoia and did a check, and none of the peaks were overcompressed, so i don't know what to tell you, and listening to it in mp3 is crap, so if i had a wav i would love to submit it to you...

please, lets close this forum, its not a free mastering job for John that i was aiming at, it was a chance for him to hear what mastering could do, and because of soundclick's mp3 crap it turned into a disaster, anyways, close forum and stop this before it escalates. :!:

I agree.
I won't lock it but we do have better things to talk about. I'm sure John appreciates the efforts made.

bennyg i didnt mean to be nasty honestly, and i do think the mp3 converson has a lot to do with it and to let you know im monitoring on the mackie hr624s so i agree they arnt that bad of monitors. John if you want to upload an 80 meg file try an on line hard drive company like mydrive or netdrive they give you 100 megs for every free acount and i think it would be really cool to have a sample wavs so people could try mastering projects not this project persay but projects in general next topic :)

Well I hate to drag this thread out, but I would like to get back to the original subject.

All I want to know is how much my song could benifit from a pro mastering job.

I don't need anyone to give me a mastered MP3 version of my song thats just a waste of time. All I wanted was opinions; would my song sound that much better if a pro mastered it? Is it worth it to spend the extra money? Will it sound noticably better? How much of a difference are we talking about?

And although I appreciate everone's opinion, I would like to hear they opinion of a real ME, but Iam yet to get one.

I listened to it - It's swishy from the bitrate, but there seems to be a fairly solid and clear mix in there. That's a great starting point - It's harder to turn a "6" into an "8" than it is to take a "9" and keep it there.

The problem with the initial question is that every project benefits in a different way from mastering. I've done projects that run the gamut of complete overhauls to only 1/2dB adjustments on a few EQ bands, to doing absolutely nothing other than dithering, sequencing and burning. Once in a while, that's all that's needed. On the other side, I've turned a half dozen projects away this year because I didn't want to associate myself with them. Horrible, horrible stuff.

The thing is, it might not sound "that much better" when it's finished, but you'll know that it's up to its potential and was scrutinized on fine gear with fine ears. OR, it could sound totally different. Communication is key.

If you go the mastering route (which I highly suggest as a matter of course), I'd recommend bringing/sending a CD of some tracks that have "the sound" that you feel you'd like to emulate. That will give the ME things to listen for and concentrate on if the project could go in several directions.

An example - On recordings like this, I have a tendency to open up the highs *almost* to the edge of acceptability. That's what's on most recordings of this genre. HOWEVER, if I received mixes like that and a copy of Iced Earth's "Dark Saga" CD with a note that says "this is what I'm really looking for" I wouldn't neccessarily go in that direction - I'd concentrate on keeping / manipulating "warmth" in the upper mids.

Am I making sense here? Or do I need more coffee...? Maybe a little of both. Getting coffee.

Massive Mastering wrote: I listened to it - It's swishy from the bitrate, but there seems to be a fairly solid and clear mix in there. That's a great starting point - It's harder to turn a "6" into an "8" than it is to take a "9" and keep it there.

The problem with the initial question is that every project benefits in a different way from mastering. I've done projects that run the gamut of complete overhauls to only 1/2dB adjustments on a few EQ bands, to doing absolutely nothing other than dithering, sequencing and burning. Once in a while, that's all that's needed. On the other side, I've turned a half dozen projects away this year because I didn't want to associate myself with them. Horrible, horrible stuff.

The thing is, it might not sound "that much better" when it's finished, but you'll know that it's up to its potential and was scrutinized on fine gear with fine ears. OR, it could sound totally different. Communication is key.

If you go the mastering route (which I highly suggest as a matter of course), I'd recommend bringing/sending a CD of some tracks that have "the sound" that you feel you'd like to emulate. That will give the ME things to listen for and concentrate on if the project could go in several directions.

An example - On recordings like this, I have a tendency to open up the highs *almost* to the edge of acceptability. That's what's on most recordings of this genre. HOWEVER, if I received mixes like that and a copy of Iced Earth's "Dark Saga" CD with a note that says "this is what I'm really looking for" I wouldn't neccessarily go in that direction - I'd concentrate on keeping / manipulating "warmth" in the upper mids.

Am I making sense here? Or do I need more coffee...? Maybe a little of both. Getting coffee.

Thanks for the indepth answer. It's nice to hear from a real mastering engineer.

So how much am I looking to spend for a pro mastering job? This is probably gonna be like a 7 song CD about 35-45 minuets long. This is my first record that I'm putting out on my Indie label so I don't really have that much money to spend right now. I'm hoping like $1000 or less. Do you think I can get a quality mastering job for that much?

I would think so. Rates vary so much depending on where you go and who you're talking to... Some of the "online budget places" out there are... Well... Let's just say that I just into a legal argument with one of them just last week for having photos and information copied directly from MY site on their site. I just wouldn't trust many of them. I'm sure there are some decent ones out there though...

Some go hourly, some go by the song... I have a "package" deal option that's program-time based on my site so clients don't have to worry about some huge bill at the end.

You've just got to find the place/engineer that hits you the right way, and COMMUNICATE well with him/her.

Do you have any advice on where I should take my stuff to get mastered?

I checked out your website. Pretty cheap rates. I also noticed you have experience with Metal Music.

Well, I've done a metal album or two... Hundred. Okay, maybe not 200...

As far as advice on where to go - Obviously, I'd want you to go to ME!

However, far be it from me to make a direct suggestion like that. :lol: I only make subliminal suggestions wherever possible.

use massive mastering - use massive mastering - use massive mastering - use massive mastering - use massive mastering - use massive mastering

Seriously, if nothing else, go to the "get a sample" page on the MM site. The only thing you've got to lose is a blank disc and some postage.