Hi Michael,

I hear you however, there are many high end discrete preamps and compressors being built but they are expensive and that doesn't sit well with the plug-in generation and/or our current state of the economy. When there are free plug-ins and behringer, who needs it right?

The list would be long:

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.mil-medi…"]Millennia Preamp Design[/]="http://www.mil-medi…"]Millennia Preamp Design[/]
Martech
UA
SPL
Trident
Daking
etc etc etc

Microphones:
http://www.royerlabs.com/SF-24.html

and many more

Surface mount as a technique is not crap. Using proper components for any type of build is what is important. There is little demonstrable difference between surface and through hole mounting.

TheJackAttack, post: 384441 wrote: Surface mount as a technique is not crap. Using proper components for any type of build is what is important. There is little demonstrable difference between surface and through hole mounting.

It is not the manufacturing I am annoyed about !! it is the quality of the components !!!

So you are saying a surface mount Caps & Resister etc? They sounds as good as the the components in a Neve or API , How can that be? The cost is a few cents compared top $20+ for one cap?
I have been working in this technology when it fist came in, in the 90's
Things have a tone & quality to them !!
I have a few Neuman's that are old & some with surface mount
the difference is VAST !!!

There is no difference between surface mounting caps and through hole mounting caps provided you are using identical caps. Same for resistors. The difference again, is in the caps/resistors themselves and not the mounting style.

I am not arguing at all that different types of caps sound the same. They do not and this can be demonstrated in null tests as well.

Also, comparing U87's is somewhat misleading anyway. A thirty year old tube will never sound today like it did new. It may still sound good and will certainly be different than what is generally available today but that is much more a variable than the caps in the rest of the guts. Additionally, a thirty year old diaphragm will not sound the same today as it did then.

U87 is a Transister mic !!

Yes. Using tube analogy was an extreme example of comparing equipment aged 30 years. Diaphragms age and change also. Caps do make a difference.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

I have a mid 70's U87's & one bought last year !!
The boards are made in China now surface mount
sounds like Behringer to me
are You in manufacturing?

No, but you are confusing using different quality choices of capaciters and resistors with surface mount as a manufacturing option. And you are still not accounting for the changes in the mic capsule itself over thirty or forty years.

I ask You strait !!!!! do you really think there are any Quality Parts on the market for Surface mount that are of the same quality as Neve or Neuman Massenberg API componants? etc
we are talking Analoge only ! Preamps & Microphone Circuits?

What are surface mount components? I mean what do they have to do with Neve, Neuman Massenberg [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.apiaudio…"]API[/]="http://www.apiaudio…"]API[/]?

But I just posted this
http://recording.org/pro-audio-gear/52066-ua-la2a-3.html#post384462

What are you looking to find in the question? I'm not following the thread?

Surface mount devices are really only about making electronics smaller, they don't really have that much use in high end audio gear that have no need for miniaturization or low power consumption.
iPod's, cell phones, laptops, tablets are usually designed with that in mind and these are the reason SMD has made so many in roads. They are also very cheap and disposable. They are difficult to repair and they are excellent for robotic assembly.
So if your using those sorts of devices for recording music or making music then you get what you get.

Surface Mount Componants are 90% of Electronic Manufacturing today!!! for the last 20 years !!!!
A Placement robot glues the parts onto a circuit board then the board is passed through a wave soldering machine to solder all the componants to the board,
Look inside your mobile phone ,computer,Ipad etc
What I am saying is because it is cheap to make ,because there is no labor costs (for board assembly) once the programming is done for the production line
Every mass produced Audio product is made in this way, The first well known being Mackie with 1/2 the gain at the Trim pot & the 2nd 1/2 at the fader spreading the load to make the componants work well within their bandwidths, so after all this time are people craving & drooling after Vintage Mackie? NO WAY !!
It is surface mount that made them sound like they do !!
What do surface mount have to do with High End Audio???
well now Neuman use that technology as opposed to Discrete componants they are famous for !!! But still charge because of their name !!!
Pro Audio is No-compromise as far as I was led to expect
That is why apart from my Protools rigs everything is Old !!!

Bassplayer2030, post: 384474 wrote:
That is why apart from my Protools rigs everything is Old !!!

Old as in vintage?

What are you using?

You have to go with what the manufacturers produce. Many of the new audio operational amplifiers such as the OPA1641 family are only available in surface-mount packages. You could choose to mount the SO package on a DIP header and then pretend it is not a surface-mount component, but what's the point?

One thing to take into account is that the non-linear properties of some passive components vary with the packaging type. For example, the resistance/voltage curve of many types of SM resistor makes them unsuitable as feedback components in op-amp output stages where one end has the full output voltage swing. It's application of this sort of knowledge that can turn a good design into an exceptional one.

what is Vintage? I grew up using U47, U67 ,U69,U87, Neve,Api ,Telefunken,Harrison,Amek,Pultec,Lexicon,B&K, Sennheiser, AKG, UA 1176's & 1178's,DBX160
Trident MCI & Ampex etc,
I still have some old stuff ,but the 1176& 1178 & 224's I sold because it is easier to use Waves Plug-ins !!
I dont buy new stuff at all !! if it sounded good I would !!

Bassplayer2030, post: 384502 wrote: what is Vintage? I grew up using U47, U67 ,U69,U87, Neve,Api ,Telefunken,Harrison,Amek,Pultec,Lexicon,B&K, Sennheiser, AKG, UA 1176's & 1178's,DBX160
Trident MCI & Ampex etc,
I still have some old stuff ,but the 1176& 1178 & 224's I sold because it is easier to use Waves Plug-ins !!
I dont buy new stuff at all !! if it sounded good I would !!

That's too funny, Waves are some of the worst sounding plug-ins I've ever owned.
If they sounded as good, I would buy each and every plug-in on the planet without hesitation, sell the gear and go on a holiday, but they don't all sound as good to me. Each to his own. thumb
They are easier to turn on though and take up less space, you have that correct.

You are mistaking manufacturing techniques with component quality. The fact is, high quality components that used to have wires on them for circuitboard installation, are the same ones being utilized in quality audio devices that happen to be utilizing surface mount technology construction. I've seen you mention API more than once. The API 2520 is mostly, today, surface mount except for the 2 output transistors. Paul Wolff made the mistake of having Panasonic build his 2520's early on with surface mount output transistors. Well those all blew up rather quickly. Too much heat needed to be dissipated. So they went back to the entire front end being surface mount with the 2 additional output transistors not being surface mount for better heat dissipation in that little epoxy block. I'm sure the Neumann U87, still utilizes the 2N3819 FET. Whether it's an epoxy pack with three leads or whether its surface mount. It's not dealing with any current and therefore, no worries. In fact there is sonic advantages to surface mount construction. Every wire has both a resistive and inductive property to it. Without the wires, there are less interactive problems. So if you still like the sound of API, it's mostly surface mount. Of course there are still those stubborn stalwarts that want 2520's from Farmington New York, from 1968. Hey, I even have Melcor 1731's which everybody says they are not API 2520's but they really are. And though all of those are discrete components on a circuit board, you still can't repair 'em. But you can repair a Neve BA 438/440. You just can't repair the Neve BA 638/640 except for its output transistors. Otherwise, you need only insert a new Signetics 5534 IC chip. And what is a 5534 IC chip but a single globule of surface mount in an epoxy package. Nobody complained about their IC chip based Neve consoles. So your criticism is too broad ranging. Sure, like yourself, I like nice big clunky parts that I can pull off, pull out, stick in and re-solder. So I'm an old fogey old-school, stubborn stalwart, like yourself. And I like myself that way. Obviously you do also. No reason to get bent out of shape about a manufacturing technique that you cannot bend out of shape. API fixed their problem and everybody still loves their sound and they are now more reliable because they have combined both manufacturing options in a single device. I'm sure plenty of others are doing similar. So don't worry about the construction as it sounds good until you have to fix it. Then, it may not sound so good and you might not also be able to fix it. It's a small price we pay for the high price we pay. Shipping and handling not included. Titles, taxes, tags, optional. See your dealer for details. No down payment and 36 months to pay. 30 mpg (30 microphones per gig).

Neve, er, more quote the CROW. Brak! CROWmobile.com CROWmobile.com CROWmobile.com Brak!
Mx. Remy Ann David

I am asking ? do you think the Surface mount componants are as good sounding as descrete componants?

I dive a don't give a rats @#$%^ about the capsule
(you either have a good one or an average one!! because very few Neumanns sounded fantastic!!
most sounded good ,But only a few where amazing !! They dont all sound the same)
If you are talking Vocal mic I woul'd alway use a Sony C37A over a Neumann But each to his own !!

I know that service mount components which are discrete components can sound as good as old-fashioned long lead length components. No doubt in my mind about that whatsoever. Is there a proper heat dissipation? That's the real question. Paul Wolff found out the hard way and so did lots of his customers. So as long as there is proper heat dissipation, they're fine. I mean if you don't hate IC chips there is no reason to hate surface mount construction techniques. If you hated IC chips, you wouldn't be using a computer. If you hate IC chips, you would've never used a console in the 1980s. Your dislike for surface mount construction techniques are unfounded. I would repair them given the right tools & magnification lenses. But I don't like playing with little specks of dirt. Like you, I enjoy having those clunky large pieces in my otherwise dainty hands. This sounds like a tirade of misdirected rage?

Your girlfriend isn't surface mounted is she?
Mx. Remy Ann David

Well maybe I am missguided? but all the gear I hate the sound of !! Just happens to be full of those little Buggers !!!????

You're tilted at windmills Quixote.

It's not about the technology. It's the economics. Point to point costs more to manufacture. It's not inheriently better, but it's not going to be used in cheap knock off components. On the other hand, surface mount is not going to be used on overpriced boutique gear that is designed to reel in the suckers. There's no magic bullet. You can't tell how a piece of gear is going to sound just by opening the box and looking.

Like I said, API's for more than 10 years have had surface mount 2520's in all of their consoles. They can source the same quality components that originally had long lead lengths to them. Other manufacturers use the cheap parts. And even modern day Neve's also utilize surface mount technology in their construction. Still, ain't nobody complaining about those, except for, well, me. The 54 series Neve I used it NBC didn't last 10 years. It sounded good but it didn't last. And what didn't last was mostly switches. It never had many electronic problems. But when tiny switches start to break all over, it wasn't fun using it anymore. Even Siemens/Neve made a horrendous mistake quite a few years ago with one of their flagship consoles. They put in an undervoltage slew of capacitors throughout the entire console. Those capacitors leaked their goo all over the circuitboards virtually destroying $250,000 consoles all over the world. No surface mount in those. They learned just as hard a lesson as Paul Wolff learned about proper heat dissipation & properly over rated voltage specifications for capacitors, even the premium ones. Nothing that was installed was wrong in theory but it was wrong in practice. So I really think most of the stuff you didn't like the sound of wasn't a good pick to begin with? I'm not wild about a lot of this stuff either but the good stuff is still out there. You can't always buy what's on sale even if you are Jewish like myself.

"Attention Kmart shoppers... Neve microphone preamps on sale in aisle 10." Oh wow! Gotta' go!
Mx. Remy Ann David

Bassplayer2030, post: 384538 wrote: Well maybe I am missguided? but all the gear I hate the sound of !! Just happens to be full of those little Buggers !!!????

Did you list the SMD gear you hate....maybe I missed that.
But it would be interesting to know what equipment it is specifically your unhappy with.
Maybe if we knew some details....what they are, some of us could engage and have an intelligent forum discussion.
You might have a perfectly valid gripe, but not knowing what you're talking about just seems like one persons opinion and rant without any expectation of a response from anyone on here.
I mean were we just supposed to say, yeah OK...you don't like SMD?...or what did you hope to get out of this thread?
I think that's part of what audiokid was getting at....
A lot of people come on here and make wild statements and then get angry because they don't get the validation they were expecting....if you know what I mean?

Sure!!
there is a squeeky cheap sound that I am used to hearing in some budget gear Like Berhinger & Mackie, the high end is like a square wave with no air at all
I noticed it on many things but just for this I will say mixers?
A small PA's at festivals I was doing, it did the job OK ,but to my ear something in the gear sounds wrong,
the model before say for example Mackie 1604 vs 1604VLZ there is a tone with the VLZ that to me is not pleasing,

Now !! I have 87's from the 70's 80's 90's & last year
The same tone that i dislike is now in the top end of the new Neumann's that I am using at my day gig
There was a power supply problem with a mic on a session so we opened it up to see if the fuse was blown
the mic & the supply are all SM ,
My gut reaction is the componants are contributiong to this tone?

I don't think so. I think it's the difference in how they are tweaking the capsules? You know that Neumann aren't made by Neumann anymore but by Sennheiser. And the manufacturer reserves the right to make changes without notice. So who says the Sennheiser guys are not dictating changes in policy and construction techniques? You're blaming things on a couple of devices that are quite inert. Hey how many versions have there been of AKG 414's? Most of the differences are in the capsules. They are all tailored differently through the years. I certainly know that my early release 87's from 1971/72 are not the same 87's they are building today and so, they are not going to sound the same even though they both have the same part number model indicator. You are blaming small items with a multitude of other refinements not related to those components. A 2N3819 FET of silicon is still a 2N3819 In surface mount made from the same chunk of silicon. You can order it in the standard 3 lead epoxy pack or the same one as surface mount. So it's the way the microphones are actually being tuned. Newer mylar diaphragms vs. 20, 30, 40 year old ones. They're all going to have a different voice from each other.

So try this, the 87 has a very easily removable head. Swap your old ones onto your new ones and your new ones on your old ones. And take another listen. Let me know?
Mx. Remy Ann David

I dunno. I think they just sound worse because all those little electrons are being squeezed through those claustrophobia-inducing tiny little wimpy traces, instead of MANLY WIRES, and let out to play and party and mingle and bounce around every once in a while in a big ol' tube! They're just not as happy! :wink:

Kapt.Krunch

Bassplayer2030, post: 384581 wrote: Sure!!
there is a squeeky cheap sound that I am used to hearing in some budget gear Like Berhinger & Mackie, the high end is like a square wave with no air at all
I noticed it on many things but just for this I will say mixers?
A small PA's at festivals I was doing, it did the job OK ,but to my ear something in the gear sounds wrong,
the model before say for example Mackie 1604 vs 1604VLZ there is a tone with the VLZ that to me is not pleasing,

Now !! I have 87's from the 70's 80's 90's & last year
The same tone that i dislike is now in the top end of the new Neumann's that I am using at my day gig
There was a power supply problem with a mic on a session so we opened it up to see if the fuse was blown
the mic & the supply are all SM ,
My gut reaction is the componants are contributiong to this tone?

Manufacturers constantly look for methods of reducing component and production costs. Two of these methods are the use of cheaper types of components and the automated assembly processes involving the use surface-mount techniques. As a general rule, the unpleasant sounds come from the use of cheap components and not from the automated production methods.

A lot (but not all) of the "high-end" boutique gear is built by hand, and as such, they're generally not mass-produced, nor is there usually much of a budget for having an outside company do surface mounting, wav-soldering, etc. Part of their high-end price tag (in addition to the TLC and quality components that go into them) is the hand-made (LABOR) aspect of the device.

But that alone doesn't make them any better sounding. There's hundreds of other reasons why something sounds better or worse than other gear.

There's a lot to be said for SMD in terms of keeping signal path short, keeping hum and extraneous noises out of the circuitry, and so on. (One big, through-soldered cap doesn't make a product sound any better than a similar unit with the same spec cap surface mounted.) Putting everything inside of one RF-Shielded box, all on the same Circuit board, with the same highly regulated power supply can do wonders for overall specs and performance.

As many have already commented here very eloquently, it's a lot of complex factors that contribute to a device's performance. How a vintage U87 sounds compared to a modern U87 is certainly worth discussing, but it's more than just SMDs vs. discrete parts. The same can be said for the early AKG 414's vs. what they sound like now. It's a long list, with a lot of culprits.

I use Grace preamps as well as RME and Mackie Onyx preamps, depending on the job and the project. As far as I'm concerned, the sound - or lack thereof - has NOTHING to do with whether or not my gear has SMD parts inside.