That's a tough situation, IMO.
I own the ISA 428, and truly enjoy it. With that thought, I'd recommend the 828.
The problem w/ the Octo is that the pres don't stack up to some other Focusrite stuff.
They're nice, but they don't wow.

And you still have the issue of the M-Audio interface.
My suggestion is to get an RME FF800 for your interface (~$1600-1700). I've got my finger on the trigger for one now.
Search around here, and you'll see the praises this unit gets.
Then get the 610. That raises your budget several hundred, but might be the best compromise.

I think you're better off w/ something like the RME as your interface, and adding a couple of channels of "boutique" pres over time.
Start w/ the 610, then add something like Great River and API. If you don't want the color, you've always got the very nice pres in the FF800.
I can't say that I've had much experience w/ any of these high-level pres - but I'm looking at similar things myself and have done my homework to this point.
This is the way I would go (am going), and it seems it may fit your needs as well.
I'll defer to any w/ more expertise.

Of course, all of this is dependent on what you intend to record?

Thanks for your thoughts soap (can i call you that?)

My ART is "nice, but doesn't wow", at this point i am looking to put more "pro" into my Pro-jects. The music scene around my town of New Bedford (40 min. South of Boston, MA) is mainly Rock (ala shinedown), Metal (ala Death, Metallica), Hip Hop (ala Eve, Jadakiss) or Jazz (ala John Schofield, "Big Band"). Most of my cleints won't come to me for jazz/classical projects, simply because i don't have the facility (room,mics,clean pre's) to suit them right now. I hope to serve 5-6 piece bands of any style, Singer/songwriters, Solo singers. Bear in mind that i am i musician of sorts (guitar 12yrs.) and have dabbled in keys, drums, ect. This is partly why my mic pre budget is low. Live recording is my potential niche. Hence the need for 8 channels adat.
The RME stuff has what seems like a flawless reputation on RO and i have researched it. (lol) After i had my a** reamed by a moderator for not putting it as a consideration for an "around" $1000 interface. I would not purchase any other interface besides that, BUT... i like/am very comfortable w/ the Pro Tools (academic 7.3cs5) software, not the prices. I could always use RME/cubase, then edit/mix in PT, but i'd still be stuck w/ low end interface. Switching editing software is not a consideration right now, i spent the past two years and counting, getting decent w/ it. My next jump up will be a used 002r (if super cheap) or used HD 1 (if um, affordable). PT/No PT aside.

Does ISA have that WOW factor to you Soapfloats, anyone else? Compared to what? The True Precision 8 was a STRONG contender, but lacked my requirement of adat outs.

The 610 will be mine, oh yes, it will be mine (Waynes's World anyone?). I feel like i'm shortchanging my clients if i put them through an octo, but my own $ shortchange eliminates marketing more than 2-6 channels at a time (Patience?). As far as API, i have a unit i can rent time w/, as well as an Urei La2, and DBX 160 (Not 160a). My current recordists are a folk songwriter, and Soul/Gospel type singer.

I started recording for a hobby in 1999 and it snowballed into my carrer pusuit in 2009. I have a weekend bartending gig at a nightclub, which i have not only rewired their system (longer story), but meet new potential clients weekly.

The difference between ISA and Platinum series Focusrite is literally night and day.. The 828 gives you what you are looking for by simply screwing it down in the rack and pushing 'Go' when the recording starts.

I think if you look at this as a business track, the upgrade of number of quality channels is your first priority live with the interface being next and then a boutique channel or two. Maybe room for a mic upgrade (the dynamics of the drum kit). You are on the right track and the 8 channels of front end brings your ability to do live up to a point of returns for the budget, for the rest of the plan.

Points well taken,

It seems to be much more sensible to upgrade interface and drum mics before purchasing a boutique pre. Glad i checked w/ RO first. The purchase of Isa 828, better interface, mics, should be a better short and long-term investment, in my case. It allows me better quality faster, and the appropriate amount of time to try out $1k per channel pre's. Thanks.

Here is a list of potential workhorse drum mics i was thinking of, as funding allows: D 112, Sm 57, (4) Md 421's, (pair of) 451's? Sm 81's? Km 184's?. New heads on drums! (priceless)

From my research/experience (Howard Massey's "Behind The Glass" included), this seems to be a typical setup.
For around $2k this seems like a ridiculously good step up from Nady kit. Opinions Welcome.

Thanks for mentioning the drum mics Dave.
I left them out b/c the post was more about pres/interfaces.
It was also the glaring defect to me (I've owned some of the current drum mics, leave it at that).

To the OP -
Sometimes I forget about the PT limitations on interfaces.
And you can call me Soap. I've been called worse.
Like Dave alluded to, no, the 428 doesn't "wow". But it gives me 4 channels of quality preamps above my stock interface ones.
I especially like the gain setup and options for impedance, phase reversal, and low-cut filter. I prefer to take care of potential issues as early as possible.
Plus, the impedance and gain setup lend well to ribbon mics.
Again, much better than the interface I own.
I also have a Sytek for a little more color.
Like I said, things like the API 3124+ and other high-end pres are on the list.

You can't go wrong with that mic list.
I use a 52 on the kick and 414s as OHs, b/c they are what I have...
and what you mentioned might be the only changes I would make to my typical drum setup.
Can't get enough 57s and 421s.... they're great on so many sources!

Davedog, post: 300984 wrote: The difference between ISA and Platinum series Focusrite is literally night and day.. The 828 gives you what you are looking for by simply screwing it down in the rack and pushing 'Go' when the recording starts.

I think if you look at this as a business track, the upgrade of number of quality channels is your first priority live with the interface being next and then a boutique channel or two. Maybe room for a mic upgrade (the dynamics of the drum kit). You are on the right track and the 8 channels of front end brings your ability to do live up to a point of returns for the budget, for the rest of the plan.

FWIW I'd like to add, the 828's ADC outperforms the 1814's by far. Clock the 1814 externally taking advantage of that and your sound will improve to even closer "pro" levels. I love the 1814 and know from personal experience that improving clocking (by internal mod or external device) makes a night and day difference. You'll experience enhanced performance in terms of clarity and dimension. The 828 is a nice choice. Look at all those beautiful Lundahl tranny's you get. :0)

P.S. the next addition you might consider could be an external DAC box for heightened clarity in mixing. Just a thought.

The OP might consider the option of recording with something like the FF800 and then importing those tracks into PT. For listening/monitoring purposes he can send the 2626 into the FF800 via ADAT to utilize the far superior converters and more importantly the superior analog circuitry.

FWIW I love the True 8. A set of 8 preamps no one has mentioned yet but are very good quality for the price, is the Onyx 800R. It fulfills your requirements very ably other than a big wow name factor. Sonically they are very respectable and have ADAT and AES/EBU output.

TheJackAttack, post: 301136 wrote:
FWIW I love the True 8. A set of 8 preamps no one has mentioned yet

Seemed like the OP had narrowed it down to a personal choice otherwise I would have mentioned it too. I totally agree the True 8 is a real gem. Detail and dimension that's just hard to come by in that price range. Very very sweet. And made right here in beautiful Tucson, AZ. A friend of mine rocks these clocked by an Antelope OCX and his tracks are amazing. I can't believe the capture he gets on his Larrivee with this setup. Talk about "wow" factor.

Yeah, they're great (True). The problem is with his M-Audio 2626 they would be wasted.

Thanks for the replies,
I have strongly considered (but not mentiontioned) the True 8 with all the others. They don't have the adat out's i need to take advantage of my limited FW1814. Based on their rep around RO seems like a "can't go wrong choice". Given my varied clientel it would make sense to have such a nice "True" sounding pre.
Interesting davedog, that you bring up DAC ( i honestly know little about them, beyond their function. will research.) because the salesperson i deal w/ constantly tries to sell me one. I'm aware it is an integral part of the chain, but i have bypassed it because i lack pre's. I like the fact that the 828 will offer some ADC. And i am drooling at a possible DIY upgrade to my 1814. I have a close friend who uses the digi 002 and i feel like our recordings are fairly competitive (he's got better rooms, i have more years "clocked in" hehe.) It seems the converters will be a weak point in either one.
Attack, Onyx, considering i own Mackie HR's, recommend them as bang for the buck, and am ok w/ the quality of the 6 ch. Mackie submixer at the club (i work at), i feel like a snob not considering them. They might be my ticket, for a low price 8 channels, w/ money left over towards all the other quality gear i need. I don't want to outgrow my 8 channel pre anytime soon. i appreciate your workaround invlovling the FF880, but i feel like more investment in M-audio could be money spent/saved for higher end or more productive stuff. i guess i gotta try the RME line, cuz it's good reputation certianly prececedes it. if nothing else it will give me a great reference to go by.
Soap i have never heard of "sytek" but i just googled it. i love my 414 and use it for most of my condenser needs. i purchased an AT 3035, NT-1a, as my first two condensers. About 6 months later i finally got the 414, and a use them sparsely. also used the 52 but found it boomy. as a fan of shure, i feel it merits more trial than a rushed demo session. (i.e slap it up, get level, record, to 4 trk cassete.)
Well, so much food for thought i'm feeling stuffed, seems like i have alot of combinations to try before making my offer to the man. any more points in the right direction are welcomed. My main concerns now are 8 more channels, converters and/or interface, Kick/Overhead mics. I would like to see some of my current eqiupment get some more hours (help pay for them selves) while not skimping the people paying their hard earned money. I've still got a lot to learn in this musical life and don't want to cut corners/ or bite more than i can chew. But i've heard "magic". Music has certainly raised my hairs, and for me anyway, it doens't always come from the expected places. RO RULES!

kmetal, have you considered integrating the A&H ZED R16 as a solution?

You get 16 pristine mic pre's (I have a ZED and am 100% in love with the pre's), extremely transparent EQ, ADAT ports and FW connections. Your interface issue would be resolved as well as your limitations with quality ADAC. The ZED converters are actually very nice and IME are comparable in quality to BLA's ADAC. You would be able to connect directly to your DAW while monitoring from the board, and in mix sessions monitor OTB. Just a thought, it's within your budget.

i appreciate your workaround invlovling the FF880, but i feel like more investment in M-audio could be money spent/saved for higher end or more productive stuff.

any money spent on m-audio would be more productively spent on RME

I will be patient if i try something that blows these out of the water for around $1k more.

do it. RME and fewer,better pres.

being a paid "professional" and showing up w/ a 4 track/M-audio interface for sessions.

if you turn up with RME, few will realize how good it is. if you turn up with m-audio, most will feel they coulda done it themselves.

just my $0.02 but i don't think recording via a non-PT interface and then dumping into PT is as much of a hassle, as to ignore the core of your system which will be D/A converters. once you have the RME you can chuck quite a lot of your gear for $. and it will do you for years and years and years. money on more m-audio is diminishing returns for you here.

I could always use RME/cubase, then edit/mix in PT, but i'd still be stuck w/ low end interface.

not getting you here, what would be the low end interface? the D/A back out?

and do take a look at seventh circle audio. bit more time-intensive, but time is money, and i'm amazed more people don't evangelise them here on RO

kmetal -

Didn't mean to disparage the 414s. I also love mine. #1 condenser in my closet at a good 3:1 ratio.
Just saying that if I were to make another choice for OHs, the mics you mentioned would be leading candidates.

And while I don't (yet) own the RME, it is first on my list.
Let me briefly explain:
I own a LOT of Presonus stuff. For the buck, it's pretty nice gear. I promote the FS 26/26 as it has served me well (mostly) and I love the I/O options.
However, every so often I have to purge my machine of anything Presonus and reload it.
Usually when a client is in house.
I've only managed to get my 2 Digimax's to sync to the FS for one day.
Clocking issues, stuff going out. Problems.
Mostly, great stuff - but not pro quality.

I think I am in a similar situation to you.
While my primary concern is my project studio, some of the other engineers I work with and I are also seriously considering doing 16ch live audio / video.
Either way, my weakest link is the interface.
Yeah, my control room sucks. Yes, my monitors are bleh. But I learn quickly, b/c I have to do everything myself.
And the one thing I've learned is this:
If I'm going to be a professional, I have to have gear I can count on.

and do take a look at seventh circle audio. bit more time-intensive, but time is money, and i'm amazed more people don't evangelise them here on RO

LMAO....we can't even get people to see the benefit of buying quality once rather than some cheap POS and wasting their money many times over! 7th Circle does get mentioned as well as general lunchbox solutions but you're right, probably not as often as they could be.

A&H considered as great live board for under $4k. Clean,workable, if i have to pack up a board each weekend, it directly competes w/ Mackie in my opinion. Clean, 32 channels, Direct outs, 6 aux sends. Mics, pre's,cables to connect a couple sends, working (potentiall rig). I don't want to confuse "live reinforcement" rig w/ "live recording"

I'm tired this time, i have a lot to think about and well, I don't want to put something stupid.
I will try to give a quick one...

RME converters must make a huge diff

I never saw discouragement to 414, nobody has said it's useless.

i'm on an restoration job, as well as build job. (i consider myself grateful, but i'm tired now)

Will Most def. pick up convetrsations where you (thankfully) left them.
Just need time to take Care. Quality over quanity. (done)

Will observe posts in detail, just done for now.

Thanks ALL.

Hopefully i have more tooffer . just beat friday march 5th 6:53 am

Quick post. True 8 was strongly considered. No adat outs. Sound quality of True 8 has great acclaim around RO. Will use as a "True" reference verses all others i try, before i buy. Will spend more time on further replies, just tired. (need to continue studio build @ 11 AM Today)
I've got a lot tof posts respond to. Just gimmie a Day/or 2. I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Just would rather reply intelligently, than quickly. Happy Recording!

As i continue to reply to myself... "toofer" is that some sort of a lapdance?...

In the interest of buying once i have completeley outruled m-audio. I will not buy a boutique pre right away either. I love the idea of all those transformers in the 828, and wonder if i could swap some out. (will research).
RME is strongly considered, but after an 8ch Adat pre. Return on investment. Even with the purchase of the FF800, i'd still need the pre. This prohibits new mics, outboard converters. i understand outboard converters may not be impreritive w/ FF800.
After all replies my purchase list goes: 8 ch. pre, Drum Mics, Interface/Converters. This seems a practical buy-in to live recording setup. Not an "end-all" but functional. If i strike a "good deal", or hear a "great piece" of equipment, i could sway. The preceeding will be my current guideline along w/ research. Rock On!

RME Octamic II would give you 8 mic/line preamps with either ADAT out or AES/EBU or SPDif out. You can upgrade your interface later when you have more cash. I'd have other pre suggestions except for the whole ADAT requirement and the spending plan/budget limitation. The Onyx 800R isn't made anymore so that's out.

I'm with John on this one. Lack of digital outs puts several rather good devices on a back burner. True is inclusive....A sleeper , no longer made, but decent quality without digital outputs was the Presonus M80. Decent out of the box and the chips are socketted in these. Put your own choice in and enjoy the benefits of being able to upgrade a factoey installation....kinda says something about the philosophy of the company at the time.....Dont know if its carried on to now....Onyx....also in this catagory.

Cool, definatley gonna check out out the presonus, and the RME pre's, which sound affordable. I glad you guys feel my pain w/ searching for a buy once pre w/ adat outs. Maybe i should consider one w/ out, coincinding with a new interface. If i had in HD setup i could use the True via DB 25 (drooling for equip, cringing about living w/ parents for another 5 years). Perhaps a used onyx could be useful. Presonus get reccomended to me alot by salesmen, having not yet test them i am concerened that they may not "keep up" w/ something like the ISA or the True. Anyone used both? thoughts?

Thanks to all for your priceless thoughts! Rock on!

The True 8 outclasses the Presonus gear but that doesn't mean the Presonus wouldn't be a good move. Of course I've already recommended the Fireface but if it's out of your budget it's out. A used Onyx 800R provided it's working would be a good choice. Mackie will still service them but it would of course be best to get a working unit. They're out there. Other than that and the Octamic II, there just aren't many worthy preamps with ADAT in this range. Jump up to the $4000 preamp range and we can add some more suggestions.

Kudos Jack, I think that's the fastest reply i've ever gotten! I went to two guitar center's today to do some "trying out", and they didn't have any of the pre's in contentention, presonus the exception. They did have the "la 610" but the 610 is in mind when the time comes, and i just didn't want to tempt.
What do you think are the quialities that make the True, and the RME units "special, or distinguished" or more "classy"? Just a question of your professional opinion, and preferences.
I will be thrilled the day i get to post "looking for pre in 4k range", only my hard work (or really lucky day) will make that happen. Unfortunately these products are out of my range, but, i keep my mind open to any info, cuz one day it might help me, or one of my clients.

-kyle

The True preamps are very very transparent. They provide ample gain even for the couple of ribbons I've tried out and are just dead quiet with whatever they're plugged into. I like them better than the RME in fact. The RME preamps are just plain nice. They don't get in the way of anything. The Onyx aren't quite in the same league but I was very surprised when got my first set. It turns out they weren't necessarily going to be a buck toothed red headed step child. There are those that want "color" with their preamps and those folks might not be as happy as I am with these options. IMO you have to get up to the Millennia or Grace to get better than the True, and then not a night and day difference.

Another manufacturer I would dearly love to own is [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.dwfearn…"]DW Fearn[/]="http://www.dwfearn…"]DW Fearn[/]. And not just because his daddy was a famous horn player.

Interesting. Thanks
I tend to lean on Mackie v.s Presonus based on "Pro use", and i am satisfied w/ the Mackie products (Hr's, Cfx (not mine)) i've used. Nothing super, but nothing bad either. (yet i long for more) Both will get a fair shot, and have good reputations. I like the idea of a quiet/Hi gain pre (True) cuz, bar recordings, and and my un-isolated home studio (30 yards from highway) have enough noise. Lol, my 414 picks up alot of cars passing by. (i have a 414 before a nice pre cuz i wanted one for ten years and got killer deal on brand new one. it's worth more now than when i purchased 2 yrs ago $750) Needless i work my noise gate/HPF.
Transparent v.s color... Kinda unsure. (lack of experience). Great pondering issue for me. Also a never-ending topic among audio people.
Eventually i'd like both.
I've gotten color from my 4-track, and what i think is transparency from the 1814 pre's. The guitarist in me loves color but chosing the right shade (or lack there of) for general band recording, will force me to try alot of stuff.
Issues- A colored set of pres may not be appropriate in general situations (i only get 1, 8ch. unit to start w/). A transparent pre may not give me much "character" considering my minimal outboard gear, and (very) modest recording rooms. (i do know the importance of the instruments themselves, mic selection/placement, and players)
Back to the ISA interest, it seems like an "in the middle" type from what i've read. Some color from transformers, but yet somewhat clean. Thoughts?
I wonder if a generally transparent, or colored pre would serve better considering these Not-optimal recording/mixing conditions. More thoughts?
Clicking dw fearn link.
Rock on!
-kyle

Quickie- D.W Fearn. Darn. i like everything i read from the design philosophy, point to point, gold, tubes! Certainly gives some competition to 2-610. Love the options, there's gotta be more too! More food for thought.

P.s. i've owned 2 "handmade Mese Triple Recs" and both have sounded (slightly) different (both good). So i guess that would merit numerous soundchecks w/ these Pres.

If you decide you need colored you won't find an 8 pre unit in your price range with ADAT. You could choose to do a lunchbox package and add different flavors as you have cash. You'd then still need some sort of AD converter which would add to the cost. Also, check out [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.seventhc…"]7th Circle[/]="http://www.seventhc…"]7th Circle[/]. Of course you are now in info overload as it is so maybe don't look. But you can't help yourself can you.....

I think at this current time with your current budget, and provided you keep the interface you currently have, that you should find a good used Onyx 800R or an Octamic II. Either of these would be useful for you in any endeavor for years to come. For instance, my FF800 has two sets of ADAT in/out and so I can augment the 10 analog ins with 16 ADAT preamps bringing the total up to 26 per FF800 unit.

Couldn't help myself, clicked link before i finished reading your post.
DIY well, hits the nail on my head. These units seem like the DIY'ers "lunchbox". while not cheap, i haven't seen any modules for said lunchbox, anywhere near competitive (pricewise). I like, really, want one of these. I'm glad i posted on RO cuz i'm seeing a lot that's not in my ususal catalogs/magazines. (i was a finance major, and understand Huge ad Budgets vs. Quality)
A huge new can of worms is opening. but i need to aquire the proper electronic skills. i have failed in all my attempts at soldering, yet passed at 95% of my building "woodwork, drywall, rough electrical) projects. There's some local pro's i'm going to ask/pay to "show me" my mistakes.
Pres- Will now shootout onyx/octa mic II vs. ISA. If Isa is similar, i'm going w/ onyx/octa. More $ for better drum mics, interface, converters, "cool new boutique DIY pre's"
The only thing i (might have) missed w/ 7th circle, is tubes. Maybe they'll make one, or two.
Any specific thoughts on the Octamic vs. Onyx?
-kyle

The original Octamic was not as good as the current Octamic II. Still decent though. The Onyx 800r comes up on ebait fairly often though the final prices are going up now that it is a discontinued product. Go figure. I've been happy with mine as the secondary to the True.....and I don't have to drag out the Onyx 1640 which is the best deal of all. The converters are great in either one so it will just be the analog circuitry that gives each unit it's signature.

If you did end up with the 7th Circle kits then you'd be looking for a straight ADC. Then your options get limited again to RME, Lynx, Benchmark etc.

Greeting all! Looks like my 1st post is going to be a bit of a "duh". Does the Focusrite ISA 428 have different pre's than the 828? My impression was that the 828 was an 8-channel version of the 428. Someone mentioned that he preferred the sound of the 828 to the 428, which is what prompted my question.

Thanks!

ISA428 Pre Pack Four classic microphone pre-amplifiers and high-quality A-D conversion

ISA428 Pre Pack Four classic microphone pre-amplifiers and high-quality A-D conversion

Since i can't professionally interpret the stats, i will say it costs less per channel for 828. i've heared, not used, the isa one + sm57, sounded more real then my ART mp pro. (into PT LE setup)
Both (ISA's) use lundahl transformers. My guess is, people generally think "what they have is better", and focusirite may have used those cool meters for 428, to fit in the 828's footprint. I wouldn't doubt they had both products in mind during development.
As tube guitar amp owner, i think "each one" is a bit different, even of the same model. Just thoughts.

octo BAD!!!!
isa GOOD!!!!
UA good but its 2 channels with no D.O.

planet10:
It would be more helpful if you posted what is "good" or what is "bad" instead of just shooting from the hip. You've got three or four quick posts that contain nothing but subjective opinion (which is fine) but no rhyme or reason. Compare and contrast and/or give some examples of setup that worked or didn't that YOU have experience with rather than parroting something read elsewhere on another forum.

Nice website by the way.

well its just plain and simple....
the focusrite platinum shit is just that SHIT, its made for bedroom guys with no budgets or VERY limited experience in recording and it helps them get their feet wet.
the ISA is pro studio equipment hence the difference in what they cost. i mean really if you havent heard an octopre in comparison to any ISA you'll know what I mean
example, when i was at NAMM this year i stayed in LA a few extra days to visit and hang with my music mentor since i was 13 years old, now 46, and i went to their friends studio to record a jam session.
the owner of the studio had a platinum channel strip, and the other pre was a ViPre. he liked putting the kick drum thru the focusrite and when i changed that to the ViPre his eyes popped out of his head when he began hearing what a real kick drum sounds like with a killer piece of equipment on it. only because he was told by some GC schmuck that the focusrite is the shit for kicks and bass because it has eq and comp on it.
the other thing is this, i get product to mix all the time by locals and they use the octopre and the digimax stuff because its cheap andthey want to record more inputs at once to their 002/3. sure in the wrong hands those pieces will be shit an dim sure that JJP or CLA would have no problem making them work right because they would use the right mics and have greater placement values than a novice, it goes without saying, so yeah when i get these tracks and they sound like shit its because of the inexperience behind them BUT....do you seriously think that anyone, such as JJP or CLA, in a professional environment would ever consider those products to work with anyway!!??!!
im a purist, im passionate about making music sound insanely good, if your going to be in this business, PLEASE make great music by getting educated by profesisonals

Nice. That'll do.

Don't be fooled with the Foscurite name, ISA label and blue paint. The current ISA products are not up to snuff of the orginal ISA sound, design and heritage. It is redesigned, rebadged mass produced mid level stuff.

Would you include the Focusrite Red in that category?

Would you include the Focusrite Red in that category?

No. While the Red is not the ISA from the orginal console where all the buzz came from, I feel that the Red is a legit spin off from that original design for limited mass production (not the same China mass production for the current products) The Red-7 was one of the first pro external outboard products I bought many years ago right before it won the TEC award. Still have it, still use it, still rely on it. I also had the Red-3 for quite a while but sold it durring a low period. I'll get another one some day.

Thanks. That's kind of what I thought but wanted some confirmation.