[MEDIA=soundcloud]kevin-white-2/who-we-are-you-monkey

This is the first tune we did ... I just didn't want to open up another thread ...

Please feel free to comment on either.

Als0 -- free downloads on both by clicking on the down arrow in the upper right of the player!

is that a delay or verb of some kind or does the room you are recording in really sound that bad?

the band sounds good (the playing and singing) but that room sound is distracting.

What room sound, what song, what part?

everything. both tunes. it's on the instrumental tracks and the vocals. can't you hear it? did you put a delay or reverb on everything? can anyone else hear what i'm hearing?

Nope ... there's a reverb on both drum tracks ... but that's the only reverb. Both are different types for different sounds. I wanted the drums huge in "You Monkeys" with a medium sized room reverb. With "Fallin" it's a very short plate. If I took it out most might not even notice.

The guitar(s) (Bass/Elec/Acou) went direct through their respective amps, and the keys are soft synths via midi in the DAW. There is no room sound to them. They weren't miked.

Vocals were individually close miked in "Fallin", all set to their cardioid pattern ... so they're not picking up much room sound either.

In "You Monkeys", the singers gathered around an omni mike to sing together ... but it would be there only while they're singing, and at no other time ... since I trim the tracks between the singing to reduce noise.

I'm puzzled by your comment ... accordingly.

I did put a soft modulation to thicken and spread the vocals on Fallin ... which, to me, sound almost too dry. On "You Monkeys", I did add kind of an odd delay ... but again, it would not be heard when there were no vocals.

i dunno it might be SoundCloud doing it but i don't think so. i am guessing its the sound of the room you recorded in. maybe someone else will chip in on this. am i the only one hearing it? i thought i was going deaf but perhaps not?

edit: ok its on the vocals and drums. the instruments sound ok.

... which is perhaps even more confusing because the drums have their own room, and the vocals have 3 other rooms. :D

If I played back the vocal tracks, there'd be very little room sound ... due to the varied rooms and close miking employed. You may be objecting to my effect choices on them ... but really, there physically cannot be a lot of room sound on them ... plus it wouldn't carry through during the periods no singing occurs.

During such passages, since I did NOT apply any reverb globally, and everything (but drums) was direct in (no room), there is no room sound.

My guess, therefore, is you don't like the sound I've chosen for the reverb on the drums ... of which (particularly in You Monkeys) I saturated them a bit.

But now ... Kurt ... I am VERY interested in hearing what others might hear. This is the first mention of that issue ... and thanks for making mention of what you are hearing.

hey Kevin, i'm not trying to diss you or the work. i am just hearing a room sound i don't care for much. but what do i know? i also hate hi tuned snares .... it's all a matter of taste. the songs and performances are nice however and that's what matters most imo.

[[url=http://[/URL]="https://soundcloud…"]Who We Are - You Monkeys[/]="https://soundcloud…"]Who We Are - You Monkeys[/] The hats, cymbals and crash are killing the track. Turn those down and I think the song would be better.

Kurt Foster, post: 442789, member: 7836 wrote: hey Kevin, i'm not trying to diss you or the work. i am just hearing a room sound i don't care for much. but what do i know? i also hate hi tuned snares .... it's all a matter of taste. the songs and performances are nice however and that's what matters most imo.

Text is a very difficult way to discuss audio. I felt no diss. Only a puzzle created by text issues.

audiokid, post: 442793, member: 1 wrote: [[url=http://[/URL]="https://soundcloud…"]Who We Are - You Monkeys[/]="https://soundcloud…"]Who We Are - You Monkeys[/] The hats, cymbals and crash are killing the track. Turn those down and I think the song would be better.

Agreed. I think the problem occurs in the mastering I employ. I know. I shouldn't self master ... but meh ... I'm a cheap bastard in a home studio doing it all myself.

The same issue doesn't occur in the original mix.

mastering is supposed to make things better, not worse. :whistle:

kevinwhitect, post: 442798, member: 11453 wrote: The same issue doesn't occur in the original mix.

Which is why I use two DAW's and mix into the master or more modernly put, the online mix. But that is another topic that I will refer here as a prime example.
That being said, if I may suggest why this particular issues is happening, and help.

• You many be compressing this too much (which is bring up the brass freq). To get the same level, you still need to reduce your drums.
• Your ears are fatigue in the upper mids.
• Your monitoring is shy in the upper mids.

It could be one or all of these reasons but I do not believe your online master is adding to it.

Reduce (only) those percussive areas and then upload the mix again.

The cymbals are too loud. I think it's the mix, not the mastering. It would be interesting to hear it without the mastering.

bouldersound, post: 442805, member: 38959 wrote: I think it's the mix, not the mastering

Exactly :) It is in the mix.
I'm one for small changes and not doing two things at once.Lets hear the reduction of those levels first.
If he fixes the cymbals and hats in the mix, his mastering will not change. I'd like to hear this fix it in the mix, and then master it the exact same way.

audiokid, post: 442793, member: 1 wrote: [[url=http://[/URL]="https://soundcloud…"]Who We Are - You Monkeys[/]="https://soundcloud…"]Who We Are - You Monkeys[/] The hats, cymbals and crash are killing the track. Turn those down and I think the song would be better.

+1

What was your mic configuration on the drums - the types used and their placement - and how high is the ceiling in the room where you track the drums?

If that's the "natural" sound of the room, then you might want to look at recording them in another space, as it sounds pretty bad ( to me); and if that's more of an artificial reverb, you need to consider another type of verb, along with lessening the amount.

How hot did you track the drums? Or are you using a limiter on them - or on the 2 Bus - that's perhaps clipping? I picked up on some distortion here and there.

That ambience on the lead vox isnt working for me at all. However it actually works on the bgv ok.

audiokid, post: 442803, member: 1 wrote: Which is why I use two DAW's and mix into the master or more modernly put, the online mix. But that is another topic that I will refer here as a prime example.
That being said, if I may suggest why this particular issues is happening, and help.

• You many be compressing this too much (which is bring up the brass freq). To get the same level, you still need to reduce your drums.
• Your ears are fatigue in the upper mids.
• Your monitoring is shy in the upper mids.

It could be one or all of these reasons but I do not believe your online master is adding to it.

Reduce (only) those percussive areas and then upload the mix again.

Hmmm ... compression is a bit light on the drums ... I will post up the original mixes w/ the percussion's overheads reduced.

bouldersound, post: 442805, member: 38959 wrote: The cymbals are too loud. I think it's the mix, not the mastering. It would be interesting to hear it without the mastering.

I'll post up the original mix in a little bit.

audiokid, post: 442806, member: 1 wrote: Exactly :) It is in the mix.
I'm one for small changes and not doing two things at once.Lets hear the reduction of those levels first.
If he fixes the cymbals and hats in the mix, his mastering will not change. I'd like to hear this fix it in the mix, and then master it the exact same way.

On its way. I'm in the studio now.

DonnyThompson, post: 442809, member: 46114 wrote: +1

What was your mic configuration on the drums - the types used and their placement - and how high is the ceiling in the room where you track the drums?

If that's the "natural" sound of the room, then you might want to look at recording them in another space, as it sounds pretty bad ( to me); and if that's more of an artificial reverb, you need to consider another type of verb, along with lessening the amount.

How hot did you track the drums? Or are you using a limiter on them - or on the 2 Bus - that's perhaps clipping? I picked up on some distortion here and there.

Hi Donny!

I've got an SM7 on the kick. SM57 on the snare. CAD ICM 417 on the hhat. 2 Sennheiser e604's on the rack toms. A Senn 421 on the floor tom and 2 MXL 603s on the overheads.

Ceiling height is 8 ft ... room is roughly 12x14 ...

But on You Monkeys ... I did employ an artificial reverb w/ Cakewalk's Breverb ... and it is a noticeable effect.

When I post up the original mix ... I'll kill it so folks can hear what the drums sound like w/o it.

JayTerrance, post: 442810, member: 49019 wrote: That ambience on the lead vox isnt working for me at all. However it actually works on the bgv ok.

I assume you're talking about "Fallin"?

kevinwhitect, post: 442818, member: 11453 wrote: Hmmm ... compression is a bit light on the drums ... I will post up the original mixes w/ the percussion's overheads reduced.

Cool, I don't really think its compression in the mix.
Sometimes when mastering, using a limiter, hats and cymbals will stand out. But its not because of the mastering per-say that does that. Its still means your hats and cymbals in the mix are too loud.

I hope you don't change your mastering approach for this. Just turn down the percussion parts. Then lest listen to the mix again.

And to predict the next thing I would do after we hear this result,

Turn your lead vocal up a bit. I think your mix will then be ready for actual critiquing in a more refined way which is when it gets interesting.

Here's just the You Monkey drums as they sound sans reverb. I have them lightly compressed ... as you'll see by the wav form. I have reduced the hi hat and over heads in this sampling.

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Attached files YM Drums.mp3 (1020.5 KB) 

This is the You Monkey's MIX ... hhat and OH down ... drums dry.

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Attached files YM Dry.mp3 (2.4 MB) 

No mastering on either above ... this is out of the box mix only.

kevinwhitect, post: 442825, member: 11453 wrote: I have reduced the hi hat and over heads in this sampling.

They sound as expected but without them in your original mix posted, this is useless to me. As far as your drum sound, I suppose it is what it is because they sound like a small room. I wouldn't even use them if I was trying to improve your mix.

I hope you simply add this to your original mix so we can hear how it improved it though.

audiokid, post: 442828, member: 1 wrote: They sound as expected but without them in your original mix posted, this is useless to me. As far as your drum sound, I suppose it is what it is because they sound like a small room. I wouldn't even use them if I was trying to improve your mix.

I hope you simply add this to your original mix so we can hear how it improved it though.

I wanted folks to hear both the drums on their own ... and how they sound dry in the original mix. That's the second file I posted up. :D

The room itself is about 12-13x14-15 ... it's not a huge room, but not tiny either.

kevinwhitect, post: 442826, member: 11453 wrote: This is the You Monkey's mix ... hhat and OH down ... drums dry.

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Yes there it is. A bad sounding room. Can't you hear that early slap and unpleasant short reverb Kevin?

I'm pretty sure i hear the same room sound on the vocals too. post them sans music please.

Kurt Foster, post: 442830, member: 7836 wrote: Yes there it is. A bad sounding room. Can't you hear that early slap and unpleasant short reverb Kevin?

I'm pretty sure i hear the same room sound on the vocals too. post them sans music please.

On the drums? Yes. Now ask me if there's anything I can do about it. :D

The rest of the instruments are direct. No room sounds.

Vocals were recorded in three other separate rooms.

Listen to the a cappella at the beginning of Fallin' to hear. I'm not hearing huge influence there.

i can hear the room sound on those vocals too. and it's not a good sounding room. i'm disturbed that you don't hear it.

i think combined build up of these bad sounding rooms is what i said i hear. the solution is to record in a space that sounds good when mic'ed.

What I'm reading though (if I'm reading it right) is there was a strong aversion to the Breverb setting I used to mask the small room nature of the actual drum recording?

Kurt Foster, post: 442833, member: 7836 wrote: i can hear the room on those vocals too. and it's not a good sounding room.

Correction. 3 not good sounding rooms of various sizes and dimensions :D

room sound is room sound regardless of how many rooms were used. lol. :ROFLMAO:

It is what it is ... and I have to deal w/ it. That said ... putting the mikes in a cardioid pattern should have taken care of most of the room sound on the vocals. I've got the singers singing about 9 inches from the mic ... there's not going to be a lot of room sound that can get back in around the direct sound. Also ... as I said above, the minute the singing stops, the clips are clipped. There is no linger to the room sound on the vocals. It's not even there when the vocals aren't.

I get the drums having a room sound to them ... and I hear that ... my attempt to add effects was to mask the dryness of the tighter space.

I even hear it on my lead vocal in "Fallin" ... for I know what I did there (I recorded a tube mic in semi-omni mode for a flatter frequency response ... but with a surround on the mic to prevent rear reflections). But I'm hearing almost nothing on the other vocals ... as there should be mostly only direct sound w/ VERY little room to it ... even if it is three different spaces.

kevinwhitect, post: 442837, member: 11453 wrote: putting the mikes in a cardioid pattern should have taken care of most of the room sound on the vocals.

says who? you are making an incorrect assumption.

kevinwhitect, post: 442837, member: 11453 wrote: I get the drums having a room sound to them ... and I hear that ... my attempt to add effects was to mask the dryness of the tighter space.

well in the first place they have an ambiance to them so they are not "dry". adding effects only adds more ambiance. the trick is to record things that sound good in the first place, not to try and fix a bad sound later in the mix.

Kurt Foster, post: 442838, member: 7836 wrote: says who? you are making an incorrect assumption.

I'm making a physical assumption given the sonic rejection pattern of the microphones and the nature of the recording technique. Room sound should have been nominal ... by all measures.

Kevin, it's very simple. not rocket science by any means. cardioid mics reject sounds from the rear. they still pick up on the sides and unless you have absorption on the walls any room will have reflections, some of which are still going to come from the sides and the direction of where the mic is pointed. you may assume anything but that's not going to make it true. just put the mics up in the room and record something. does it sound icky? room treatments to dampen the reflections is the answer. either that or record in a room that is large enough to yield more desirable reflections.

and i reiterate, the performances and the songs are nice and that's what most important. as a demo it's fine. i really doubt anY perspective client is going to say, "What the hell is that room sound?" :love: