Word on the wire is that the new Yamaha MSP10's don't sound like NS 10's. That may suit you or not. Just thought I'd mention it....Fats Hi Robert! :w:

Hey, Fats...

Never actually owned any NS10Ms. I have 2 pairs of Tannoy PBM-8s , one at the console and one at the KB/Midi/Sequencer chair. They are both wired through an old Hafler DH-200 amp and one of those zoomie no-pop, constant-load speaker relay boxes.

It's interesting how different 2 pairs of identical speakers can sound when one is on a meter bridge in the center of the room roughly 45 degrees from the walls and the other pair is on a keyboard scaffold up against the side wall. Night and day in the bass and the mids.

I only have my old JBL 4311s to compare them to and I mainly achieved a huge reduction in the severity -- and a delay in the onset-time -- of fatigue. The JBLs were just too big for nearfield -- or even midfield for that matter. They work great on my living room TV/Stereo/DVD/Satellite though!

My last regular exposure to anything that was supposedly a "standard" was a long time ago: Altec 604e's with Doug Sax's woofers and Mastering Lab xovers. If you mixed with those, at least Sax would not laugh you out of the building at mastering time...

I guess I am kind of hoping the MSP10s would give me some of that "make it sound good on these and it will sound good on anything" discipline.

The link I put up has a download where you can read an interview with Akira Nakamura. He says the reason the NS10s died was that, mysteriously, they could no longer produce the white photo-paper cones (!) citing "unavoidable reasons" but not saying what they were. Weird. Mildly fishy, too. Kind of like,

" How do I get them to buy the lobster when they all keep stuffing themselves on my shrimp? "

Y'know? Fishy.

Time will tell whether their new speakers change the world or a miraculous new method for making photo-paper cones suddenly materializes out of Nowhere. Remember how fast Coke Classic came out of Nowhere when New Coke had Americans puking in their french fries and Pepsico dancing on the boardroom tabletop?

It would appear that Nowhere has the same zipcode as Necessity...

So how's your dead U47FET?

Are you still hugging its corpse in total denial or did you finally cave in, empty the piggy-bank and take it to Stephen and Tony for some SPA magic?

Talk, Fats -- or we're turning Rocco loose on you.

And if you find a horsehead in your bed and $1000 on the nightstand, don't bother looking for the 47.

It will already be on its way to the lab.

:cool: RW :cool:

Robert,
That was e cue that had the dead 47. Not me thank goodness ..(better he, than me)..You hit it right between the eyes about shrimp and lobster. Just what I've been thinking for a while now. The point I was making however, was the MS10's don't give you that "worst case make it sound good on these and it will sound good on anything" thing. Now I'll sit back and ponder if it would be better to have a broken 47, to suffer the slings and arrows of quality microphone repair, or to revel in the fact that my old 87 and C12a work fine and leave it at that! That's the problem with owning real nice old stuff, every once in a while you gotta take care of it......Good to hear from you old bean.............
Fats :w:

Um. yeah... right... e-cue's dead 47... I knew that. Darn.

Hey, Doris! You get my cranial flatulation prescription refilled yet?

Geez. If it wasn't for all these darn meds I could afford to get my old mikes made magical.

Instead, I go jonesing around looking for broken ones that are almost already there. But there are audio tow trucks prowling the internet with pockets full of cash and it's getting pretty bleak out there.

I think I will keep pinning my hopes on Stephen's new mike. He's had what, 20 years to work on this design in the back of his mind? tick tock....

Originally posted by Mongoose:
Well, I got a pair of Yorkville YSM1i two days ago, and so far, so good - I'm a convert. I've got a couple of friends who have NS-10s and Tannoy Reveals (which were my other 2 choices), so we're planning on comparing the three sometime.

That would be interesting. I find the Yorkville passive's to be quite balanced, with good bass though a little muddy and "scooped" in the low-mid. I do not think there is a better speaker for anything like the money.

Yamaha NS10's have always sounded like crap to me, and are only useful as a third or fourth set in a big studio. It is nasty to recommend, as some have done, for a project studio to have these as the only set of monitors.

Your ears will hate you.

I would like to add that the most important thing is to have a set of monitors that become *your* reference in *your* room. A set that you can depend on because you know how a mix will translate. The cleaner the sound, the more detailed, the crisper the soundstage, the wider the range of frequencies represented, the better. But familiarity and consistency are the most important elements.

I can mix on a 25-year-old set of acoustic research speakers and get good hard-hitting dance bass that the speakers do not even correctly reproduce. That's because I know them well.

They are my NS10s.

So, to the original poster, buy Yorkvilles or Reveals or whatever you can afford that are reasonably balanced. Get what works for you and keep them for ten years. Learn those puppies. Listen to everything on them.

Do not buy the line that you need NS10s. They are popular because they are popular. Consistency is important in the studio world. It's good to be able to go from Nashville to LA to Toronto and know you're listening to the same speakers. That's why Yamaha made the wise decision to discontinue them when they could no longer guarantee their consistency.

But they could just as well have been Tannoys or JBLs or whatever. It's more a historical curiosity than anything else that they are Yamahas.

Just my (non-pro no gold records) opinion.

wow, what a read... took me awhile to get through this whole thread.

of all the studios i've been in. most of them high end pro studios. you will find ns10's somewhere.

they are like a d112, 421, Neumann.for mics. they are the standard. they'll have some others there but ns10's are a staple.

who knows down the road without spare replacement parts. i found a pair of yorkvilles and they were cool.

i wound up buying a set of roland rsm 90's. the unpowered versions. when i was testing them out there was genelecs, ysm1's haflers, quite a few to choose from.

for my budget the rolands were the best. to me they were almost as good as the genelcs. prettymuch the same freq response but the genelec had better stereo separation, and imaging overall. i dig the rolands though.

i did a session "playing drums" with an amazing engineer at a stdudio he had never been in before. he brought a cd case with a bunch of mixes he knew really well.
checked out several different tunes of various styles. and was ready to go.

i picked his brain as much as i could on gear and whatnot his attitude towards speakers was as long as have a reference point. be it an album you've mixed or know the sound of really well. you can work around the different characteristics of different speakers.

having a cd player in you setup is a must, especially when you get a new set of speakers whatever they are.

i get a kick out of shopping for speakers and every kind swear they are flat, pure heaven, you can't get any better. and yet they all sound different, sometimes radically different.

the only thing you can do if you are on a budget, is listen to as much music that you can on your new speakers. hopefully some of which you know the sound of as it relates to other speakers sytems. through time you can work around any speaker type.

everybody hates the sound of ns10's. and i'm sure if they are honest, no one nailed a killer mix with them the first time they ever used them. they take time to understand. as do any other speaker.

chrisperra

I recently bought a pair of Roland DS-90A's and am very happy with them. I believe them to be very accurate and they also look very nice in my studio :D . Any oppinion on these monitors?!
Carlos

It costs money to build real studio monitors. Quality crossovers, drivers and cabinets.. That's why they are expensive. Monitors are like microphones. You shouldn't skimp on them. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but you gotta take it! The monitors that are being manufactured by Yorkville, Roland, Alesis, Event, to name a few are all produced to a price point. That means the first thing the manufacture decided on was how much they would sell for. (cheap!) Then they search for the components that will help them reach that price. (cheaper!) = PROFIT! There are many reputable speakers out there but they all cost some dough! The NS 10's were an exception. and many facilities used them. That's why Yamaha discontinued them. Like Robert Wall said,

" How do I get them to buy the lobster when they all keep stuffing themselves on my shrimp?"

You can keep asking, "Is this dog turd good enough?" and "How about that dog turd?" but the truth is your not going to a cheap set of monitors that are worth crap! Cheap = Dog Turd! If anyone is interested, in the next few days I will compile a list of speaker manufactures who (IMO) build a quality product. It's a long term investment, so don't cheap out. In the long run you'll just buy a better set of monitors as soon as you realize how crappy your cheap ones are. Spend your money once on quality and you'll be happy, happy, happy…..

Here is the start of the list. If anyone has any idea about quality monitors, in the mid price range post it and I will put them on the list….no budget, esoteric or home hifi please. Gimmie some meat and potatos! …. Fats

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tannoy, Dynaudio, Blue Sky, JBL, Earthworks, Westlake, NS 10's :D , Genelec, Hafler, KRK, and PMC
Those are good. …………………….. Pick one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, my pair of monitors cost over US$1K, so they weren't exactly CHEAP DOG TURDS. Just was wondering, if anyone WITH EXPERIENCE with these monitors had any constructive comments on them.

Carlos

Hell, I'd sure be interested in that Fats!!!

I'll be the first to admit that I need a monitor upgrade, BIG-TIME! And I really don't know what to be shooting for.

For the most part, I seem to prefer non-powered (which are usually passive because of budget) over self-powered, but the markets line of sight right now seems to be cheap, nasty powered near-fields, so...

So, I've looked into the more expensive non-powered mid-field passives and don't really know how to narrow-down my search. Even then, it's not like I can afford 2 or 3 pairs to try-out in my studio and see what works best in MY studio, for ME.

Then I thought, what about actual big, main monitors? Then I ask myself if they should be 15s or 12s? Or would 10s work? Really just need something that produces enough low-end to help me judge the low-end (as much as practical) for good translation and for all types of music. But, it seems nearly everything in that market is designed with soffit mounting in mind to help produce low-end extension.

But soffit mounting isn't practical for my little front-dead, rear-live control room that is roughly 10' wide and 14' deep with an 8' ceiling.

Right now, I'm running Event 20/20s powered by a DaviSound TB-8 amp. I absolutely LOVE my amp! Perfect for passive near-fields! I'm getting by with my 20/20s, but they certainly were chosen on nothing more than price as a quick fix for now. I'd eventually (whenever that may be, probably a few years) love to have a nice pair of near-fields and a pair of "If it sounds good on these...". And, of course, some non-soffit mains or mid-fields that'll work as mains in my studio; if that's possible.

I'm so confused on what I should probably be shooting for that I kind of avoid thinking that I should start saving-up for improving my monitor set-up. I think it's much better and makes things much easier when you know what the goal is!

Carlos,
If you are going to get insulted that easily you shouldn't ask. I didn't say your monitors were cheap i said "cheap = dogturd." Now I'll discuss your situation. Roland is a musical instrument manufacturer. They make keyboards and midi equipment. These items are very respected in the industry. The rest of their stuff (with the exception of the Jazz Chorus ) is pretty much prosumer stuff and not much in use in real studios. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I am entitled to my opinion and I shouldn't be put down for expressing it. Myself and many other professional engineers and producers (who have made real records) spend a lot of our time frequenting and moderating at RO to help provide assistance and information and it's bad form to abuse us.....Fats

Fats,
I guess we started out on the wrong foot. No, I didn't get insulted by your "cheap=dogturd" comment, just thought that it wasn't too constructive or objective; quite general. Now, back to my situation, I have tried out a few monitors with a broad price range, and for what I do in my home studio (mostly digital stuff) I wound up buying the Rolands. I know that given the brand, there's some inevitable prejudism towards these, but I thought that they were way more accurate IMO than the Tannoys or the Alesis I tried. You are entitled to your opinion and by reading your posts, I respect your opinion very much. I'm sorry if my last post offended you; that was not my intention. My intention was to get opinions on the monitors.

Carlos

Carlos,
All's cool with me... to point out the reason I feel so strongly about this subject. You can cheap out on recording choices with digital. The differences are (IMO) negligeble. You can use cheapo and plug in compression and signal processing. But you can't accept anything but the best when it comes to your transducers. Speakers and mics....If your speakers aren't accurate in many different domaines, not just frequency response but phase corrilation, resonances, etc., how can you expect to hear good enough to squeeze the extra juice you need from those affordable digital tools. I think your right about some of the Tannoy stuff. It is slanted towards the prosumer market but IMO most of their coaxial designs are really exceptional. Look back a few posts, I have started "The List"
.........Fats :c:

Fats:

I admit I'm intrigued by the Tannoy dual concentric monitors, but what do you think about the the reports of high freq distortion due to woofer interference like [[url=http://[/URL]="http://prorec.com/p…"]this reviewer[/]="http://prorec.com/p…"]this reviewer[/] claims?

Is this a valid concern?

I have had a set of 12" Tannoy concentric monitors, the System II DMT 12's for several years now and I am pleased to report that they kick ass. Here's my monitor set up.

DMT 12's
NS10's
Auratones
Haffler P3000 power amp.
I have been using these components for several years now and I anticipate having them for several more.
I don't....lust for other speakers
....have crappy mix's due to bad monitoring
....have clients that say "Man, you need some new monitors..like I said, Happy, happy, joy, joy!
..........Fats :w:

carlos,...i don't have the digital rolands, i have the unpowered ones. to me, for the price range they were the best buy.

if i had the money and really thought i needed to get better speakers i'd look at the top tannoy's or genelecs or whatever.

rolands are ok. just like a samsung or a magnavox tv is ok. you get a picture and it works. if you can deal with it great. but when you spend 10 grand on a monster plasma tv you see the difference.

what you and i are doing is going out and finding the best quality tv at walmart. and, we love it, but if you have the option sometime get the plasma.

i also have a sub because i find even though the rolands can give lots of bass easily and cleanly they are not true in the bottom end.

for me, getting mixes on them to transfer to other speaker types well i need to get a sound similar to ns 10's on the flatter side. i also find that the stereo imaging and placement of things need to be watched more than i thought. i have a cd player in my chain and i'm always listening to things. as time goes by and i understand these speakers i'm more comfortable with them.

even though roland is a keyboard company they are a pretty damn good one. if you like your speakers and get good mixes from them consistantly. thats all that matters really.

chris perra

Originally posted by serious fun:
one day, about seven years ago, my son who was about 3 at the time walked out of my storage room with an LP in his hand. He said proudly "look dad, a black laserdisc"

What's a "laserdisc"? Is that some old-school name for a CD or something?

:D

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.electron…"]Drew[/]="http://www.electron…"]Drew[/]

now how the heck did this string get back here?cedar, i thought you had locked this one up..oh BTW, a laser disk is a movie medium that just never made the bigtime..but gosh the colors were nice on em

Nooooo it was the HR824 thread that got locked due to intense flame... Yeah, I can hear the SPAM. (spam??? but I don't like spam.....) Fats

Yeah...i read back thru this one and theres some seriously great stuff here.these guys that commented(besides yerself and bill) really knew their stuff..lets KEEP it :c: :tu: ...and 'spam'is that noise you hear when you listen to mixes not done 'right'...

Originally posted by Cedar Flat Fats:
Here is the start of the list. If anyone has any idea about quality monitors, in the mid price range post it and I will put them on the list?.no budget, esoteric or home hifi please. Gimmie some meat and potatos! ?. Fats

TANNOY, KRK, DYNAUDIO, YAMAHA, JBL, GENELIC, WESTLAKE, HAFFLER, PMC, QUESTED, TRUTH AUDIO, BLUE SKY

Adam P11a - $1700/pr. Amazing how well they handle transients, detailed, and work well in small spaces and speak at lower volumes.

There is a lot of controversy towards the NS10´s. If I knew you guys were so eager for NS10´s I could have sent ya my pair, almost brand new, mixed just 2 albums with them when I had to wait for a tweeter of my horrible but very "translatable" ( Oh my God) Monitor Ones.
I have also seen lots of pro guys hating them. Yes, ear fatigue, need a sub, it sounds weird.
They are very out of reality. Maybe they would compare to stereo systems from the 70´s/80´s. Today any cheap stereo Cd system can handle lots of bass.

Yes, The Mackies´s are also a fake, piece of shit.
I just haven´t found in this price range that ha sounded good.
I am really eager to test the ADAMs. So, let us see
:)

Right now, I am developing a replacement for the NS10.

Same rise time, better transition in the crossover area (no tissue needed), 2 dB more eff., Can go to a solid 42hZ (minus 3dB at 32hZ) and only 0.4cuFt larger than the Yamahas.

I am basing it on the NS1000's power, clarity and inpact, but a better interaction with the room, more precise crossover, 220 watts power handling, per channel and a cost of 850 per pair.

They will be black, they will be a 7 inch 2 way, they will be a sealed enclosure about 34 lbs each and they will translate.

They will also be totally matched within 0.3dB each.

Expect the RO reference monitor designed and approved by Bill Roberts to go on sale here, Oct 22, 2003.

They also will be bi ampable and bi wireable.

You will have a +/- 1dB control of the tweeter with a "laid back", "Normal", and "Accentuated" control, varable.

I am using a morel tweeter and the woofer is by Bohlender/Graebener. My design on enclosure and my design for crossover.

Their will also be a pair of matching subs that go from 38hZ down to 19hZ for an additional 1200.00 they will each have their own 300 watt power amplifiers.

12" in a 2.2 Cu ft enclosure, sealed, each.

Watch for it.

22 years has gone into this design, it is finally happening. We go back to speakerlab fame of 1972.

That's really cool Bill! And it was probably a good idea to tell us about it, because now we are going to hunt you like wolves till you get it done! :)
Good luck!

The NS-10 era will soon fade into history once engineers realize how much more quickly they can work and how much better their stuff sounds when they use world class monitors.

So far I know that the Earthworks Sigma 6.2 (and now the 6.3) and some of the ADAMS line are best in class (there are others that I have not listened too yet too).

The Earthworks are so good I think I could make a decent sounding album with an SM57 and a minidisc. Nothing else in my room makes as a big a contribution to the overall quality of my tracking and mixing as the Earthworks Sigma.

Bill I hope you are looking at more contemporary design and I am not a fan of the subwoofer since almost no one has one in their home listening system (other than for the TV).

Steve

I have to say .The point most of us are getting at is this ,quality is not always cheap,I have a set of Yamaha ns-10s and a set of Tannoy reveals,but I also have a set of Dynaudio bm6as enough said!!You say you want quality? you say you want true reference?This is the holy grail of reference monitors bar none in my opinion!Just listen for 10 minutes and I think you'll be sold.As far as Roland speakers go I think its always not in the companys best interest to be a jack of all trades.I don't think you would see Bob rock or lilywhite ,or any great enginner or producer mixing on Rolands .They are what they say mediocre.I think a wise man who listens to what the grand po pa Cedar says is the wise man with a golden hear and a fine connoisseur of FINE MUSIC.

has anyone tested the BM5/BM6 dynaudio models? how do they compare to the entry models of Adams?
There is a review someone posted here. seems honest
Thanks

Phew,
I've just read 8 pages and got 8 pages of different opinions - plus some stated several times ;-)

But WHAT is going to replace the NS10 as the "lower" reference now the NS10's ARE discontinued. They are gone!
We can't keep buying seocnd hand pairs from each other for ever ;-)

The way I see it is this.
No one would choose to mix on NS10's only. Every pro I've ever spoken to uses them but in addiition to their main reference speaker. Whatever that might be.

So the NS10 is really a mixing check to reveal faults tha tmight exist in a mix.
Dare I say that "to some extent" the NS10 is a mirror of what is good. Bass light, a bit trebly harsh and a forward mid range (although arguably the latter is good - but depends on what musical style you do).

This "checking" speaker has gone through it's own fashions. I remember all the must haves; auratones, visonik davids, jbl 1's (for about 6 months) and NS10's.

But HEY NS10's are DEAD now. They are no longer made.
So what can we ALL agree on is a useful "chcecking" reference ???

I'm not saying a speaker to MIX on. Or to check recording QUALITY on. Or to MASTER on. But a speaker to check all that against as a lower end common man standard.

Originally the NS10 (when they first came out) was an example of a hi-fi bookshelf speaker.
Certainly they are revealing (because of this mirror response) but the best thing was we ALL had them. So no matter which studio you used, you always had some common ground.

What the H**K do we do now?
What should we carry to the studios & project studios we now work at?

With so many project studios the problem seems even more exasperated to me - there is no common ground reference. And learning so many sets of monitoring enviroments is OTT IMHO.

The Alesis Monitor 1's are ULTRA cheap now - so we could ALL afford a pair.
For mass "value" and market dominace I guess the Behringers :-(
But perhaps these are (cough) both TOO good?!

They seem more like poor mans mixing monitors instead of the "checking reference" we all need !

We need a CHEAP speaker which is revealing and representative of lower end listening environments and we ALL need to own a pair!

How can no manufacturer have undertood that yet ?!

And just in case you haven't heard - NS10's are DEAD now. They are out of production. As an industry we can not rely on a second hand market for fatigued speakers ;-)

We need something suitable which we can ALL afford and has some revealing properties.

JMTCW

Also interested in Dynaudio BM5A.

I read Kurt's review on the Yamaha MSP5 and was impressed.

I am looking for monitors in the $1000 range and either
of these choices interest me.

Opinions???

ps still have a pair of NS10m sitting in my son's room. Both
woofer cones have been pushed in. (I could kill my son and
his friends) Basically worthless to me now. I was thinkging
of replacing the woofers, but they are $150+ each AND I
would need an amp. Better to replace them with above
choices???????

Yorkvilles are VERY similar in overall tonality and detail to Dynaudio BM5A's. Although, there is a bit of a scoop in the low-mids of the Yorkvilles - that is their main weakness for sure. Once you're aware of it, it's no problem to work around. They are also slightly bright. But I have yet to hear anything for less than $1000 that sound better or is easier/faster to mix on. Certainly not the MSP5's, which are some of the worst I've heard. The treble is harsh, definitely some of the "NS-10 sound" to them, the the bass is flabby and weak. Also not a fan of Mackie 824's, which is very difficult to get an accurate bass level on, and also doesn't have as detailed a midrange.

Now, compared to ADAMs, the Yorkvilles are a small whimpering peasant in the face of his emporer, but I love them just the same.

All just my humble opinion. Not to step on the toes of those who prefer other low-end monitors to the Yorkvilles, though I do get a bad taste in my mouth when people stubbornly bash a product they've never heard. What's wrong with admitting you don't know until you hear? It's only rational, really.

Anyway, just thought I'd toss in my recommendation for the YSM1p's. I've never heard the non-powered version.

Thanks for your opinions. It helps a lot.

I assume then that you like the BM5a as well as the Yorkville??

Any other thoughts out there on these 2 monitors (Yamahas and
Dynaudios)?

If Kurt is out there. I assume you stand by your review about
the Yamahas, that they are great little monitors (of course, for
the price range)?

Thanks

Pinhead wrote: I assume then that you like the BM5a as well as the Yorkville??

For sure. I like the BM5A better, of course. But really, listening to them just makes me appreciate the Yorkvilles more, because they're so very similar yet so much cheaper.

If Kurt is out there. I assume you stand by your review about
the Yamahas, that they are great little monitors (of course, for
the price range)?

I would assume he does too. That's cool. I disagree strongly with his review, but hopefully we're all old enough to just agree to disagree on such things :)

yes I do.
BTW last time I checked, NS10 replacment woofers were around $70 each ...

Kurt and Dasbin,

Thank You very much for the feedback.
I have a lot of respect for the members of this board. I have
been reading for a few months and decided to sign up.

Thanks for the price update on ns10 woofers, but I would
still need an amp to drive them.

Kurt, do you have any opinions on the BM5a
OR would you replace the woofers in the Yamahas and buy an
amp?

Thanks

For Dasbin...

I'm looking for inexpensive studio monitors, and I've got it down to yorkvilles or wharfedales. Have you heard the wharfedales? I don't have the time or opportunity to AB compare...
Thnx

Wharfedale 8.2 diamond pro, I mean and YSM1P for Yorkville...

Hi!

Adam 11A in the same stand for the Dynaudio BM6A... but Yorkville in the same???!!!!

My ears are blow offff...

Do A/B test...

Murdock

p.s. - NS10 still alive :)