Well, there are a lot of questions there. Miking an amp cab is very different from miking an acoustic guitar, which in turn is very different from miking vocals. If there is a lot of extraneous noise in the venue, stick to dynamic microphones on stage, either cardioid or super-cardioid. Position the foldback monitors differently, as the null angles are not the same for the two types.

Taking the vocals first, you constrain yourself by saying that your recording microphone will not be in the PA, so presumably you are thinking of having a pair of microphones strapped together like they used to do 20 - 30 years ago, where they were wired anti-series for feedback reduction. If this is the case, the type of microphone for recording is a free choice of hand-held type, but that is the least problem. Singers are simply not used to singing into two microphones at once, so you will get very variable results as the mouth moves relative to the microphones. "Eating " one of the mics does not get you a good, consistent sound in the other. In my experience, it's better to choose wisely on a single microphone that can feed both the PA and the recording chain. The recording signal could be taken either via a direct out from the vocal channel of the PA mixer, or you could use a splitter at the microphone and have your own pre-amp for recording. If you are the PA engineer as well as the recording engineer, then you can discuss with yourself what balance of characteristics each of these two functions needs. Start at an SM58 or a Beta58A and then give reasons why it should be anything different.

Amp cabinets are a different situation, especially if the cabinet is not being miked for PA. I often suggest to guitarists that they should bring a relatively low-powered amp that gives them the tone they want at the sort of acounstic levels they would use when practicing at home, then I mike it. Doing it that way gives you a microphone signal that is good for recording as well as going to the PA, and the direct out/splitter arguments apply as for vocals. Start with an SM57 or Beta57A and give reasons why you should use something different.

For acoustic guitar, I always record both the pickup and a microphone. I put a lot more pickup in the foldback than in the PA to reduce the chance of feedback. One of my more recent revelations is using a DPA4099G microphone clipped on to the guitar for recording, as this completely solves the problem of guitarists moving about, as well as not needing a delay to get the signal in phase with the pickup.

Good luck!

Boswells answer is way better than mine. But....

Vocals - sm58

Everything else- sm57's

Anything you can take DI, do so, ideally all the instruments will be DI in addition to the mic signal if a cab/amp is involved.

If drums are involved a drum trigger for the snare and kick at minimum will help generate a nice clean trigger for samples during the mix. Even if those samples are of the actual drum you recorded. Having the drummer do a few one off hits on the kick and snare, will let you maintain the drummers sound.

Raymond, post: 451971, member: 50745 wrote: Consider these will not be in the PA.

Which, the guitars or the vocal.. hell why am I asking I don't see any reason the vocal shouldn't be in the PA.
So I assume the electric guitars aren't..

When I do live sound, every mic we use are valid for recording. SM58 for vocals and SM57 for instruments are classic choices. (runs around 99$ USD each)
But the 250$ budget is already busted with 2 guits and 1 vocal...
What you could do is ask the venue to have a split snake (on side to the FOH and the other to your gear).
That way any mic they use you can record. (just deactivate your phantom power and let them handle it if needed)

So I guess you need to give more information, type of venue and genre of music. What instruments and the purpose of the recording would be all valuable information to help us help you.

A close mic on a guitar amp isn't likely to pick up much in the way of bleed so a cardioid mic works fine. It's more a matter of inverse square law than pickup pattern. An SM57 works pretty good, as do alternatives like the Audix i5. I've been using a Beta 57 ("non A") because I like how it sounds, though it is a supercardioid.

Mics on acoustics can be challenging, for the reason you mention. Also, if you use a DI with it the phase relationship between the DI and mic will be constantly changing as the player moves. I pretty much give up on mics on acoustics if I have a DI to rely on.

I have my own split snake and use whatever mics the house provides, then supplement with my own mics where they don't have them. I may add a stereo overhead mic if they just mic the kick and snare.

Recent live guitar amp sample provided...

[MEDIA=audio]https://recording.o…

Attached files Live Guitar Amp sample.mp3 (831.7 KB) 

All good advice.

I'll just add, using hyper-cardioid and super-cardioid mics on vocals is a double-edged sword. The rejection of off-axis sources then also means, if the vocalist isn't singing straight into the mic at all times, there will be significant loss. With stationary instruments, or guitar amps, that's obviously not a concern.

A certain amount of bleed in a live recording is to be expected and not necessarily a bad thing.

A Shure SM58, plus an SM57 will set you back roughly $200 for the two of them.
Alternatives in the same price range might include the more directional Sennheiser e845 super-cardioid vocal mic and e609 super-cardioid instrument mic.

And do yourself a favor, and avoid the temptation of buying bargain SM58s or SM57s on eBay (or similar sites). The web is littered with cheap counterfeits.

A reliable music retailer would probably have some used 57/58's in the $60-80 price range, so you may be able to sneak in an extra one or two relative to buying them new, and staying within budget.

If that's not an option I've have good luck w the peavey PV.1 dynamic mic (cardiod pattern) particularly for vocals. I'd be okay with it on snares as well. Electric guitars, again it's probably do ok, but it does have a boost in the top, which might not be ideal for distorted electrics.

$30 mic for vocals? Come on get real Gush. I had a sennhiesser and akg wireless as well as some other one that escapes me, all set up into an art pro vla pre amp and DBX 166xl compresser, into a Urie dj mixer (crest/jbl p.a) for a night club gig with Ghostface who is from the wu-tang clan, a multi platinum hip hop group from the late 90's.

He shows up last second, club at capacity over 600 people, his di plugs in, and were ready in seconds. I go to hand him the sennhieser which was the better sounding imho, and goes "nah man, I need one with a cord" I'm like "this one sounds best, and I just put in a fresh battery for you". "Nah man I don't trust wireless I need one with a cord". So i hand him the PV.1 I had plugged directly into a tiny 4ch mackie vlz, which I had brought for backup. And that's the one he used. No harm no foul.

I've used that mic for a fair amount of stuff before it got misplaced while some of my gear was at a friend's house.

So much wonderful input here ! Awesome ! I see that I did not make myself clear when I placed a budget on microphones. My intention was a 250$ budget (or less) per mic. Meaning; if I intend to get a good recording, I might expect to provide the microphones from my locker. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not loaded ! Hahaha. But, I am willing to purchase maybe a half dozen or more (example) Beta SM 58's or a comparablely better sounding mic in order to achieve the best sound for my client. I do, of course, realize there are some who would be reticent to part with the SM 58 they have been using for years and they might be freaked out by a mic that is not what they are used to hearing. I totally get that.
Doing a little research, I have discovered a "whirlwind" brand passive splitter which comes standard with multiple different capacity options.
So, from what I'm gathering here, DI all the acoustic guitars with no mics specific to them. Most acoustic players use a feedback buster in the sound hole and we aren't going to get a good sound via mic anyway. That makes sense. Use the trusty ol SM57's on all cabs. And if I can get the singers to agree, I really would prefer better vocal micss than the standard 58's. In the short term, I could be up and running pretty Quik by using the existing mics on stage for vocals. In the long run, I'm willing to buy (basically one at a time) some better vocal mics. Drum triggers is a question I thought about, but it's nothing I know about. So, I didn't bring it up. A decent seven mic drum pkg is 750$. I'm game.
When I retire from painting, I need a new vocation. And I know, just as I buy the best paint brushes for the job, I want the best (within that 250$ per budget) microphone. I've seen a lot of EV 901's on stage recently on cabs. Are they replacing the 57's as standard ? Also, the "Whirlwind" brand of mic splitter just happened to be the first I spotted online. Any recommendations on a good or better brand for the task ? Also, Direct Boxes run from cheap to expensive. I have no objection to buying the classy Neumann transformer buffered DI's (one at a time) if they really are worth the 259$ price tag. I can see needing very likely a half dozen of those.
Last, but not least, I need an assortment of mic stands. And, I happen to prefer Atlas, even though you can get cheaper. And then of course, a big box of cables.
I don't expect to spend a bunch of money overnight, I don't have it. But, I would like to "work" my way into being the go to guy in this town for recording live bands in this town. Oh yeah, the big boys will surely hate me because I will definitely be looking at the market that otherwise can't afford the big boys. But, I have no illusions that I will ever be able to compete with the big boy arena stuff. I don't really want that. That's too much like a job and it takes a crew. I just don't have that kind of capital. I'm thinking on the lines of set the band up, record them onto a dedicated Avastor HD and hand them the HD at the end of the night for a cost of somewhere around 700$. They can then either take the HD somewhere else and have it mixed and mastered or I will do it for more $. I want to give them options. Maybe the young guys and gals can't afford an entire start to finish job. But if they can walk away with a HD that they can have completed when they have saved up more money, I think I can offer an attractive service.
So, I'm also asking for opinions on this business model which I am proposing. I do know this....it will definitely cost them a 50% deposit on the job before I even walk in the door. I've been screwed a couple of times doing this before. All I had then was an 8 channel portastudio and using their mics. Now, I've got good stuff and am willing to invest more.
Thanks. MPBWY

K&M make some nice stands that I've had good luck with over the years. There's nothing wrong with on stage stands or a basic generic stand for this type of application. I typically use on stage stands for live becuase they get beat up.

You pay big money for the small diffences in the high end stands and it is worth it in the long haul if your constantly setting up and tearing down. Basically plastic parts are replaced with more metal parts in the tensioning mechanisms. Cheaper stands are more likely to strip in the threadings and coupling parts becuase they're usually plastic.

When you have delicate/expensive mics that are heavy, that's where weighted booms and tall expensive stands come into the realm of need not want.

By all means get the best stands you can afford, but just like everything else in audio there's a steep cost of entry for the 'best' so it's really case by case.

Shure makes a drum mic pack that I'll be purchasing sometime in the future. It's an excellent value.

https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjqvb3Lz9DVAhWCFoEKHbLUAssYABAHGgJ5dw&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASE-RoCizfKMVBbAwJOdU_-F2DAe8&sig=AOD64_0rrQtalchwJelDKgFvttp4iIYI8A&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwjCzLnLz9DVAhVBKyYKHQKqCw8Qwg8ILA&adurl=

As far as 'better' than the 58, if it's good enough for top touring stage acts, and studio, for 4 decades it's good enough for just about anyone. Don't let the price fool you. It's so common because it's a fantastic vocal mic, as well as rock solid, and moderately priced.

Shure makes some handheld condensers and there's always the 'beta' 57/58. The reason the 58 is a safe bet is it's good on a vast majority of vocals. As you move away from the 58 you move into something that demands pairing to the individuals voice. Often vocalists will have tried many mics and found one that complements their voice particularly well.

I have female client who's a beast of a singer. They insist on using the beta 58a instead of the 58, becuase they are convinced it's better every in all cases. Not the case. The beta 58a is perfect for her- on the mackie mixer, which is on the dull side. Plug the beta 58 into the studio live mixer and 1.6k feels like needles on the ear. This where the more tame 58 would respond much better. It's not a knock on any of the mics or mixers, just an example that care needs to be taken within a whole signal chain and on a voice by voice basis. Otherwise the 58 will never let you down.

I'm personally getting a beta 57a for my little writing rig for vocals, because it's got some extra presence vs the 57, and is affordable enough to take with me on my bike trips without worrying about it getting beat up.

DDrum makes some good triggers that I've used a few times in the studio.

In general radial is a safe bet for anything they make. Solid build, good sound quality, decent pricing. Something like what your describing suits radial products well. Radial is used by bigtime artists on the road and studio, the rackmount guitar splitter (JDI??) is used by John Pertucci and Joe Baressi as I recall offhand. With Jensen xformers in it, it's a real beast.

Most of the times you get what you pay for,
And most of the time you pay dearly for the top of the top, which will in most cases go unnoticed.

This isn't to discourage getting the best out there or best you can afford, it's to make sure that your taking proper advantage of exactly what it is your paying for.

The 58 isn't the cheapest out there, and far from the most expensive dynamic mic (I'm aware of), which is around 900$ For the senhiesser md441. A highly underrated microphone that just kills on snare drums and vocals. It has a very "condenser-esque" sound tendency, and the tightest pickup pattern of any mic I've ever used.

kmetal, post: 451996, member: 37533 wrote: K&M make some nice stands that I've had good luck with over the years. There's nothing wrong with on stage stands or a basic generic stand for this type of application. I typically use on stage stands for live becuase they get beat up.

You pay big money for the small diffences in the high end stands and it is worth it in the long haul if your constantly setting up and tearing down. Basically plastic parts are replaced with more metal parts in the tensioning mechanisms. Cheaper stands are more likely to strip in the threadings and coupling parts becuase they're usually plastic.

When you have delicate/expensive mics that are heavy, that's where weighted booms and tall expensive stands come into the realm of need not want.

By all means get the best stands you can afford, but just like everything else in audio there's a steep cost of entry for the 'best' so it's really case by case.

Shure makes a drum mic pack that I'll be purchasing sometime in the future. It's an excellent value.

https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwjqvb3Lz9DVAhWCFoEKHbLUAssYABAHGgJ5dw&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAASE-RoCizfKMVBbAwJOdU_-F2DAe8&sig=AOD64_0rrQtalchwJelDKgFvttp4iIYI8A&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwjCzLnLz9DVAhVBKyYKHQKqCw8Qwg8ILA&adurl=

As far as 'better' than the 58, if it's good enough for top touring stage acts, and studio, for 4 decades it's good enough for just about anyone. Don't let the price fool you. It's so common because it's a fantastic vocal mic, as well as rock solid, and moderately priced.

Shure makes some handheld condensers and there's always the 'beta' 57/58. The reason the 58 is a safe bet is it's good on a vast majority of vocals. As you move away from the 58 you move into something that demands pairing to the individuals voice. Often vocalists will have tried many mics and found one that complements their voice particularly well.

I have female client who's a beast of a singer. They insist on using the beta 58a instead of the 58, becuase they are convinced it's better every in all cases. Not the case. The beta 58a is perfect for her- on the mackie mixer, which is on the dull side. Plug the beta 58 into the studio live mixer and 1.6k feels like needles on the ear. This where the more tame 58 would respond much better. It's not a knock on any of the mics or mixers, just an example that care needs to be taken within a whole signal chain and on a voice by voice basis. Otherwise the 58 will never let you down.

I'm personally getting a beta 57a for my little writing rig for vocals, because it's got some extra presence vs the 57, and is affordable enough to take with me on my bike trips without worrying about it getting beat up.

DDrum makes some good triggers that I've used a few times in the studio.

In general radial is a safe bet for anything they make. Solid build, good sound quality, decent pricing. Something like what your describing suits radial products well. Radial is used by bigtime artists on the road and studio, the rackmount guitar splitter (JDI??) is used by John Pertucci and Joe Baressi as I recall offhand. With Jensen xformers in it, it's a real beast.

Most of the times you get what you pay for,
And most of the time you pay dearly for the top of the top, which will in most cases go unnoticed.

This isn't to discourage getting the best out there or best you can afford, it's to make sure that your taking proper advantage of exactly what it is your paying for.

The 58 isn't the cheapest out there, and far from the most expensive dynamic mic (I'm aware of), which is around 900$ For the senhiesser md441. A highly underrated microphone that just kills on snare drums and vocals. It has a very "condenser-esque" sound tendency, and the tightest pickup pattern of any mic I've ever used.

Great info, Kyle ! I'm also a musician. So, things that I want are always considered for dual duty. I made a mistake when I said Neumann DI's. I meant Telefunken. But, while browsing, I'm seeing the Radial stuff as having very attractive features and price points. I still have my first DI and I can't even tell what it is anymore. All of the lettering has faded. Had it for over twenty years. I think I paid around thirty for it. Everything that I would consider is stuff that I would record my own band with.
Something that might tickle you. It turns out my favorite stage mic is a Shure 5575 Aniversary issue edition. I have better sounding mics. Yet, every time I have used that big gaudy "Elvis Mic" (yeah, the one they call Fat Boy), people who are my fans (God bless em) all tell me that they love the way it sounds with my voice. And amazingly, I get less feedback from this mic than I do any other that I have. I'm not a "collector", but I do strive for a vintage sound stage in my performance. So, I have been buying up a few antiques. Personally, I think the old PE54 I have blows the pants off of any new 57. It also sounds fantastic as a guitar mic if ou will stay in the zone. Sometimes when hosting an open mic, you get the guy who refuses to modify his old Martin with electronics and that's the mic I put on em every time. Maybe, I just got a good one. But, I'm actually leaning towards stocking up on the older Unidynes as opposed to the modern ones. So far, everyone I've heard is superior to a new 57. Sssshhhhhhhhhh !
However, I'm scared to put those old ones on a drum kit or in front of a Mesa Boogie. I don't trust them to stand up to that kind of abuse. I'll choose a newer mic for high SPL !
Any opinion on using the front address ribbons that Beyer makes....on cabs ?

Yep, there are "better" live vocal mics than the 58, but there's something to be said for using THE standard. Singers know how to sing into them. Mixers know how to mix them. If you can't get pro results from an SM58 you're not going to get pro results from any mic.

Regarding DIs, it's not a bad idea to have more than one type. Some sources work better through a passive, some work better through an active. Radial makes quality DIs, but I've done just fine with good old Whirlwind Directors, Rapco DB 101s etc., plus a pair of Rapco ADB+8 active DIs. It's hard to go wrong with a Countryman Type 85, which is as much of a stage standard as the SM58. The BSS AR-133 is an awesome sounding direct box that has a warm bottom end, and it has XLR input in addition to 1/4" (which I like for sending dynamic mics down long snakes).

bouldersound, post: 451999, member: 38959 wrote: Yep, there are "better" live vocal mics than the 58, but there's something to be said for using THE standard. Singers know how to sing into them. Mixers know how to mix them. If you can't get pro results from an SM58 you're not going to get pro results from any mic.

Regarding DIs, it's not a bad idea to have more than one type. Some sources work better through a passive, some work better through an active. Radial makes quality DIs, but I've done just fine with good old Whirlwind Directors, Rapco DB 101s etc., plus a pair of Rapco ADB+8 active DIs. It's hard to go wrong with a Countryman Type 85, which is as much of a stage standard as the SM58. The BSS AR-133 is an awesome sounding direct box that has a warm bottom end, and it has XLR input in addition to 1/4" (which I like for sending dynamic mics down long snakes).

Thanks. I will do research on all of those you mentioned !

Raymond, post: 451998, member: 50745 wrote: Great info, Kyle ! I'm also a musician. So, things that I want are always considered for dual duty. I made a mistake when I said Neumann DI's. I meant Telefunken. But, while browsing, I'm seeing the Radial stuff as having very attractive features and price points. I still have my first DI and I can't even tell what it is anymore. All of the lettering has faded. Had it for over twenty years. I think I paid around thirty for it. Everything that I would consider is stuff that I would record my own band with.
Something that might tickle you. It turns out my favorite stage mic is a Shure 5575 Aniversary issue edition. I have better sounding mics. Yet, every time I have used that big gaudy "Elvis Mic" (yeah, the one they call Fat Boy), people who are my fans (God bless em) all tell me that they love the way it sounds with my voice. And amazingly, I get less feedback from this mic than I do any other that I have. I'm not a "collector", but I do strive for a vintage sound stage in my performance. So, I have been buying up a few antiques. Personally, I think the old PE54 I have blows the pants off of any new 57. It also sounds fantastic as a guitar mic if ou will stay in the zone. Sometimes when hosting an open mic, you get the guy who refuses to modify his old Martin with electronics and that's the mic I put on em every time. Maybe, I just got a good one. But, I'm actually leaning towards stocking up on the older Unidynes as opposed to the modern ones. So far, everyone I've heard is superior to a new 57. Sssshhhhhhhhhh !
However, I'm scared to put those old ones on a drum kit or in front of a Mesa Boogie. I don't trust them to stand up to that kind of abuse. I'll choose a newer mic for high SPL !
Any opinion on using the front address ribbons that Beyer makes....on cabs ?

+1 on having active and passive DI on hand if possible.

Lol, the Elvis mic. so you know what I mean about matching the mic to the voice despite anything else.

I've used one of those old unidyne 3 mics that look like a silver 57 with an on/off switch. To me it sounded duller than a 57. I used to put it on snare bottom once in a while. It wasn't reliable which made me angry, and most of the time it sat in the mic bin. Any dynamic mic should handle the typical spl of the snare or mic cab. I use a nuemann u87ai on kick drum down at one of the studios I use.

My experience with old equipment is it's usually broken. Vintage is cool for some things but for day to day work, especially live, I'd veer towards a re-issue. It's cool to have an original neve or something like that but it's really a luxury and impractical for most recordists due to high cost of entry and high maintenance, and low parts availability. Then you need a qualified tech like Dan from Zeltec, NYC, who works on abbey road's tape machines, or RO member and professional gear designer Boswell, to really do the job correctly.

Again this isn't to say vintage gear isn't cool, or doesn't sound better or rather more magical, but it isn't to say that just cuz it's old it's better either. then there's the issue of how much of the vintage components are actually left. There's plenty of vintage units that have been modified by the in house tech, the intern, or stripped for parts. Finding an all original vintage unit requires deep pockets and a keen eye.

The beyer 160 (new) has been on my hitlist for years. It's was what they used in conjunction w a 57 for Jimi Hendrix are you experienced,
So it's good enough for me. Ive also been told it's good for bass guitar played thru a jazz chorus. Something they did on Peter wolfs' sleepless album, recorded and mixed by a co worker of mine.

If you're like me, (and I seriously hope not everyone has this affliction) you can't watch any concert footage on TV without trying to scope out every mic they're using. Concerts, late night talk shows, Later with Jools Holland, Live at Daryl's House, Eric Clapton's Crossroads Festival, etc.- you name it. What I've noticed is, if it's a wired vocal mic, 95% of them are singing through an SM58/57 or Beta58/57. If the vocalists has a more nuanced voice, then you're likely to see either a Shure KSM9 or Neumann KMS105. Even though these are production companies that could afford any mic under the sun, they predominantly use a $100 SM or Beta 58. If that won't do, they seem to jump straight up to the $700 range. Most of the divas tend to be wireless, but if it's a wired vocal mic that's what I usually see.

There are definitely some interesting dynamic live vocal mics I'd like to hear in the $250 range, like the Heil PR35 and Telefunken M80, but I don't have either (yet). And unfortunately, I can't hear other people sing through them on TV either.

I really like the few Heil mics I have. Has anyone else had any experience, good or bad, with the newest line of Telefunkens?

Having personally heard Dave's (dvdhawk ) live recordings ( He recently played me a video recording of his son's band doing an Allman Brother's song), I've been blown away by the audio quality he's getting. ( I've also been blown away by the talent and skill of the kids in the video... I was nowhere near that good at their age.)

Yeah, I think mics can make a big difference in the overall sound, but it's also the ears of the cat setting the mics up and mixing, too. Dave is too humble to admit this part. ;)

As far as dynamic mics go, well, I've been performing live for quite a few years now, ( since the late 70's) and at almost every venue I've ever played where there was already an FOH system in place, Shure 58's and 57's have been all over those stages... drums, amps, vocals, ( and going back far enough, on Leslie cabinets, too).. as well as on horn sections and percussion rigs.
Not that I haven't seen condensers, too... usually as OH's on drum kits, but because of their sensitivity and propensity to pick up everything around them ...their use has been limited. I've seen far more 57's/58's, EV RE20's, Senny 409's and 421's (and in later years, Audix as well) on stages than I have condensers, especially expensive condensers. I've seen a few AKG C1000's here and there, but they're pretty cheap, and don't sound very good, even in a controlled studio environment.
I've seen some Neumann and Schoeps SDC's here and there, usually as venue/ambient mics, placed high above the audience.

A U-87 or 89 a time or two... for specialty stuff like real strings or flutes, or acoustic instruments, but I could count on one hand the number of times that's been the case.

I know that Telefunken has at least one dynamic hand-held model out there, though I don't have any personal experience with it.

-d.

;)

Thanks Donny,

I have a Shure KSM9 and don't use it live for myself (I use a 58), but I would use the KSM9 if I were mixing a singer who would benefit from the additional detail and subtleties it provides. I've let a couple bandmates use it and they loved it immediately and wanted to get one, right up until they found out what they cost.

My concern with a handheld condenser has always been the amount of moisture it has to endure with a forceful singer singing directly into it. In the right light it's amazing to see how much visible water vapor you can see being expelled when a singer is really bearing down and singing from his/her core.

I bought my first batch of mics about 35 years ago, and two of them were A-T813 handheld (AA battery powered) condensers, three of them were AT-811 SDC instrument mics, and five SM57s, and one E-V PL5, and you can guess which ones still work. The AT813 vocal mics only lasted 2-3 years and you could see the flaking and pitting on the capsule. The AT811 instrument mics went a few years longer than the vocal mics. The 57s over 10-25 years of use all eventually got their grills knocked off by drummers countless times, but I still have two of them (and they still work just fine). And the "old hammer head" PL5 still works with no noticeable change in performance and only minor cosmetic wear, but to be fair didn't get used as heavily after the first 5 years.

I ran sound for a band once whose keyboard player insisted he use his AKG C414 for his vocal. He had a soft sweet voice and the C414 sounded beautiful on his breathy voice - that is right up until the rest of the band started playing. Soft sweet voice = needing lots of gain and the 414 heard as much or more of the drumkit, electric guitars, and bass as it did his voice. So it was an all night wrestling match mixing, not just with FOH, but it was impossible to get him up in the monitor mix without turning up more of the stage racket along with his voice. Pretty soon nobody can hear through the din in the monitors. It was a long night for everyone.

That's been my experience as well.
414's are great mics, like other nice condensers, they pick up subtle nuances and breath, and the other esoteric things that make up a sweet sounding vocal ... but using them live for a vocalist is gonna be difficult, because they are so sensitive, even with the newer series that have the "tighter" cardioid patterns, that they pick up everything .
414's work well live for drum kit overheads, but the times I've seen them used, the drummer is in an iso situation, surrounded by plexiglass.
I love 414's for studio use, they are a Swiss Army knife, and in controlled environments, they sound great on pretty much anything you use them for - although sonically, I tend to like the older models better, the EB models -and before that - 1980 and before - where AKG was still using the C12 Brass capsules; those older 414's sound nicer to me, particularly in the upper mids. While I like the newer 414's just fine, they don't seem to have the same "smoothness" and "silk" that the older models do.
I suppose the summary here would be that condensers can be used live, plenty of live acts do, but you'll have much more success with them if what you are on a pro stage where what you are mic'ing is isolated in some way. I've never used a condenser for live vocals, they are just too hard to control ... and they're certainly not going to take the rigors of "typical" use in club gigs with the same ruggedness that a 57, 58, or other well-built dynamic mic will.
Honestly, I'd be happy with a stage full of 57's/58's. They offer great control over extraneous bleed, and can take the punishment, and work again and again - not only night after night, but year after year. I don't look at using dynamics live as any sort of sacrifice or "settling for less" approach because of their inexpensive prices, either.
They sound great... and not in just the way of that "they sound great for the money", but that they sound great ...period. ;)
IMHO
-d

I agree on the 57/58s.
If one would absolutely need alternatives (not that we need to), the AKG d770 - d835 and Rode M1 would be good choices too. (a bit more presence in the high frequencies but equally usable) At least they are worth trying.

I'm on a big venue this weekend and have no clue what I'm gonna work with (other than the mixer M7Cl)... Gotta work it by ears all the time ! ;)

Yeah. I gotta know what everybody's using on any stage anywhere especially on TV! My dearest is trying to listen to the song and I'm jumping up and down about the overheads........

Honestly, when watching a concert or a performance on TV you are witnessing the very best in gear and the highest level of teching available today.

I've used a mono 414xls several times live in small clubs and bars with nothing but good results. I've only used it on drum overheads in that case. I haven't used a drum shield with it. It's definitely not necessary but it lends a better definition on the kit than my other usual OH, or no OH at all. I wish I could use the 414eb, from what I gather it's a different animal from the newer ones, basically a tubeless c12? Maybe that's a tad bit general.

As an aside I think mono OH gets overlooked. I've had good results live and recorded w just one OH. Even a 57 is a decent OH I wouldn't hesitate to use.

The only other place I'd consider it for live is in front of a guitar cab. Otherwise I'd expect a nightmare of bleed and feedback.

One thing I noticed watching mic technique, I mean concerts, on tv is they often have a small clip on type mic(s) underneath the cymbals. I've never done this myself, but find it interesting.

Bit OT from the original post...but 414s are quite often used (alongside other LDCs and SDCs) on large scale classical reinforcements and recordings for all sorts of duties...some of which can get rather noisy (especially in the middle of a percussion section).

Although you can't see them on the photo, the drum kit on this gig (audience was a few thousand) used 414s as overheads.

Attached files

will there be a sound person you have to work around? For ths sort of thing i use microphone line splitters for vox, snare, and kick drum and anything else the SE has mic'd. DI bass and if it already is then either a DI out on the amp head or piggy back the direct out of SE's DI.
Mic choices SM57s are fine, I do like the sennheiser e906s.