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byacey 21 December 2002

I was in a local studio not long ago and they had Mackie'824s. At first I thought they sounded really good, although they seemed to have an exagerated bottom end.
I asked the engineer about the sub, and he replied " There isn't any. We shut it off, there was to much bottom end." As it was, everything I was hearing was from the
824's. Somewhat skeptical, I played the part that I needed to play for a session, and then went back to my own studio with some doubts about my own monitors - EV
Sentry 100's and some YSM 1's. About 6 weeks later I heard the final mix of that project and whaddya know? The mix had a very poorly defined and weak bottom
end. The room they were in was a well designed room and was designed and tuned by an outside consultant; so what gives? All reports I have read and heard from
users indicate this is a great monitor...
Bill Y

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Comments

anonymous Tue, 01/14/2003 - 08:41

I've been reading this thread and it is ridiculous....what is the matter with you guys.....name dropping is something done by people who need the recognition, its called being insecure.....i could care less who people have worked for, half the people you mentioned i wouldn't even purchase their records....just because something sells, doesn't mean it sounds good to me or anyone else on this forum....i'm here because their are people here experiencing the same things as me, same troubles, same highs, same lows......i thought this was a place to converse without testosterone or the feeling that i need to plant my foot just in case someone doesn't like what i'm saying, thinking, feeling or wearing....hey i know lets just make this a political forum and talk politics and religion.....and whats going on in the world...oh yeah and we should all drink heavily so we get really pissed off at the %##^%$^* computer...to feel like your being dissed over the computer and actually react to it...give me a large break.....find some where else to hang your protuberance out mix.....please

KurtFoster Tue, 01/14/2003 - 08:59

Muckshoe,
I agree! I would much rather spend my time reading posts that can give me info and sharing anything I have to offer with readers. BUT I won't lie down and let someone roll over me, try to take over my own and other moderators duties only to dispel erroneous information. If readers don't get correct info it erodes RO credibility! I hope this has past now so we can get back to enjoying ourselves. Again I am sorry to those of you who are annoyed by this type of thing. I don't need to pick fights here thank you. I know all the right buttons to push with my wife if I want to get into an altercation. I regret and I apologies for my involvement in this business but as I said before I just can't lie down for this nonsense. If that's what I have to do to be here I will just fade away. Fats
:w:
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It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to!

Stephen Paul Tue, 01/14/2003 - 18:22

Guys, hey...

Let's let the stove cool down in here for a while and give it all a rest no matter who's at fault here, huh?

This whole planet is a fallin' apart, so gotta remember it starts right here at home...

How bout everyone just look at this from a higher point of view...

We don't want to wind up like every other forum out there... and in fact, we're trying to show it can be done.

What's that movie with Michael Douglas? Falling Down? The one where he goes completely whacked... loses his job, his marriage, his kid, then he like goes berserk with rocket launchers and stuff?

Yeah, you know... well, we gotta watch out.

Let's say it's okay and let it go. Ain't worth the steam, guys... Let's try and be cool. We all have our moments, I see all over things seem a little wound up... Let's forget it, okay?

We'll all have a different kettle of fish to fry in a week... won't even remember this one. Or do I need to call Beetlejuice?

anonymous Tue, 01/14/2003 - 18:32

BILL Roberts & co.

I am not employed in the audio field so recording is just a hobby for me [tho i got some meaningless audio engineering qualification at sae over 10 yrs ago.

Undoubtedly you must know what your talking about in reguards to you earlier posts dealing with monitors and their inaccuracy.I myself have built my own vifa loaded passive monitors in an effort to hear real sound at a price[tested flat fron 26Hz to 25kHz]. and I prefer real instruments to computergenerated rap, though not exclusively.
But i would have to disagree on your definition of an engineer and by inference, that on music.

Music is is defined by what moves your emotions on many diferent levels.
Even though that is driven by what your ear hears, it doesnt have to be acurate to the accoustic instrument to do so.
Therefore i would say that firstly an engineer is someone who can produce a recording that will move peoples emotions, and the more people your recording "moves" the better you are. Secondly i would have to say that the more people buy your recordings, the better you are.[at least one of you guys backed up your cred by aluding to the amount you earn from it].
There are plenty of recordings out there that move me and millions of others, that don't sound accurate to the original instruments, or even include no acoustic instruments at all so there is nothing to define their true sound. The people that produce these are definitely engineers!

Now lets get to the heart of what is really ruining peoples perception of good music... THE MUSIC VIDEO.

Maak Bow

byacey Tue, 01/14/2003 - 22:51

The thing about an argument is that if both parties strongly believe themselves to be right
the argument will continue until both parties either drop dead from exhaustion or walk away in different directions. There is no learning or personal betterment taking place under these circumstances, so why fuel the fire? It seems silly that everyone can get so riled up over a
piece of gear.
Next time I'll consult the pros in a private question to save everyone the anguish. I don't claim to know everything about anything, but if someone consults me in my field of expertise I'll direct them in the most honest, straightforward way that I can. It's up to them if they decide to believe me or not; and they are free to gain the experience the hard way and derive their own
conclusions if they disagree.
PEACE
Bill Y.

anonymous Wed, 01/15/2003 - 02:05

Yikes!!! Well, my final comment is way back somewhere in this post I made the comment that I did my time on NS-10's (also Auratones for what that's worth) and Events and Mackies, and some JBL 4208's. .... and that, at this point from listening to all of these, and a few years of that, I have now got my senses and ears trained to what I hear, and how it will relate in mixes. I also said that I could probably mix on almost anything at this point.
The real issue is this:
Try to train the ears, the results will be what you're after .. and to quite a large degree .. regardless of which good quality speaker you use .. that you are familiar with.
As far as names and so forth .. here's one:
Sticks and stones will hurt my bones, but names are for the pissed off.
Too much of that everywhere. Live and let live, you learn more and have more fun.
2 cents worth from K-Sound

3dchris Wed, 01/15/2003 - 17:24

Well...i was quiet for a while...mostly because I do not wanna waste my time arguing. I agree with K-Sound. Train your ears. That's the key. There is no such thing as perfect monitors and even ns-10s are far from being accuarate. They actually have about 7db boost in high-mid range...yet some people say they are accuarate. Why? Obviously they do not want to acknowledge that. But they LEARNED to mix on them...they know EXACTLY how they sound and that's why they can make good sounding mix on them. I am certain that the same applies to all monitors..and a good engineer can make great sounding mix even on headphones.
I agree with Bill on one thing though..linear dynamics. This is where ns-10 really shine. Mackies can't come even close to them in that respect...but it doesn't mean that I can't learn how mackies sound when I play them loud (and i usually monitor on fairly low levels). What I do is I listen to my mackies as much as I can. I play all sorts of well recorded music everyday and those speakers won't fool me. I know how they sound. And anyway i do check my mix on ns-10s, headphones, klipsh home speakers, car stereo, boom box etc. before I say my mix is finished. We should all do it even if we absolutely trust our minitors.
There is one thing I learned from what Bill is saying...there is a second pair of ears needed for mastering...I will certainly send my next CD (to be released in few months) for mastering. What are your rates Bill? :)

chris

3dchris Wed, 01/15/2003 - 17:49

Bill....heheheh..I can show you similar thing showing that mackie are flat too :) it's not a proof...you know it. I even found out that some people modify ns-10s to get flatter response...but hey...i don't wanna argue....there's really no point. I think both mackies and ns-10s are great monitors. I trust them both..but there is one huge difference...it is a pleasure to listen to mackies while it is a pain to swich to ns-10s after that :) )

cheers

chris

audiowkstation Wed, 01/15/2003 - 17:55

Distortion VS frequency response. Now we are talking.

And it is painful on the modest mainstream systems too so they have to turn the goddamned bass all the way up to tolerate it or have a boom system with no midranges.
Go ahead, ruin the art.

No problem.

Oh well, go ahead, the Europeans got it figured out so do the Asians.

I guess the American "we are the best" attitude will previal, and God help us, to water down society to mud.

Just fuck it all up and rage...ja,... we are Americans, we rule,

Get out of town....

This is the final post to this thread. I hope one day about 20 years from now you may wake up and realize that the shit coming out of Europe, Asia and Latin countrys is so much closer than the Brittney stuff of USA. Sounds like ASS.

Eaches own.

Do it your way, that is fine, my wallet gets fatter by the min.

I get wealthy fixing this shit, so go ahead, make my wallet fat, or learn the finer arts.

Your choice. Both ways, I win.
You just gotta love that 7dB peak...(not)

I guess Alan Parsons "on air" album must sound bad to you. Go figure.

If I were a moderator of this site, it would be time to close the topic.

Like I say, to eaches own. But why are major facilities sending out uncalibrated mixes?? ......because the educational platform is doomed to failure and If I can put my 30 nickles in and help, that is why I am here.

3dchris Wed, 01/15/2003 - 18:32

Bill,
why do you accuse me of something i never said? why do you think i would not like alan parson's stuff? You should relax a bit man. I think you do not get the message I'm conveying to you. I think you hate mackies so much that you won't even listen to them without prejudice. I do not understand how can you say there's no midrange in them....everything is propaganda for you...even thought they won TEC awards etc....you don't care about it. Well....that's ok with me too...you don't like them ? fine...i'm not here to make you love them. I'm just expressing my opinion....and if you read my posts carefully you'll notice that I never said bad word against ns-10s except that they are pain to listen to for longer period of time...that's a fact. And I'm glad your wallet gets bigger...my doesn't...i'm a starving musician..but i wasn't kidding about sending my mixes for mastering. i am sincere in my opinions and there is no hidden sarcasm.

cheers

chris

audiowkstation Wed, 01/15/2003 - 18:50

My post is a vibe of the situation. They won the tech awards because they bought into it.

Call Mackie on the phone tomorrow. Their lines have been down for 4 days (going out of biz?, financial trouble, cannot pay the phone bills?) Seriously. You cannot call them. It is off.

If the NS's are painful the rearrange your acoustics and seating to make them non painful on recordings or if mixing, rearrange the mix that way is all I am saying.

If you read all of my posts, I am diplomatic and NS;s are not the last word.

Unfortunantly, 85% of the recording arts since 83 are calibrated with them until 2001 and many more will be. Ebay just had a used pair close at way past new retail. Why? Pros want spares.

What I am saying is I have had 824's with me for 9 weeks, I tried them in every configutration possible and they are not the cats meow. To do serious works with them dictates a mastering engineer and it seems the mainstreme is trying to bypass that part of the art. Did you know 20% of the popular hits were never mastered? Just 2-bus mix and compression and off to the plant with miss-cue, hiss at the top, DC offset and peaks that are slammed to the top but keen marketing gets them sales. I will not buy for min. , that high quality sound has anything to do with sales. It does not. Shit is out there and shit will sell.

I just want folks to realize they can improve their perspective with an open mind and always, if you hate something, and 85% of the business likes it, Why? Learn how it can be used is all.

I hate the recordings, mixing and lack of mastering that sucks but I learned that quality works are not the goal, belly buttons with blonde hair streaming down below the pants and titties poking out with a dark tan and a pretty face and hips that make you rock hard does.

That is what is selling, not quality.

Here at RO, we preach quality to the max to compete with the 6 million dollar systems, but on a budget. It can come close if not better.

That is all dude, no hard feelings I want you to know more about how I feel and how passionant I am about all of this is all..

Proper learning of why the top pros use them is essential and why.

People that hate NS10 are not feeding them proper sounds to vibe. Read my points and do not argue.

Cool???

Just learing some points from a dude that has worked beside Quincy Jones behind a board.

I am saying, Alan Parsons on Air will not sound correct on 824's and it does on damn near everything else. Especially here. :)

SonOfSmawg Thu, 01/16/2003 - 00:58

It's like this guys ... this bickering sucks. It's not in the least bit constructive, and it's definately not going to leave behind a constructive debate for others to marvel-at years down the road.
This thread is 6 pages long, it's been argued to death, and nobody can seem to accept the fact that all speakers are different, no speakers are perfect, and that some people prefer the "Brand X" speaker for their own personal reasons.
So, I'm locking this thread up. If you have a problem with that, kindly call 1-800-EAT-SHIT and complain. We're all pros here, or at least pro wanna-be's, so kindly act like it.
PLAYGROUND CLOSED!

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