Since you're better off running a little low than a little high that level seems reasonable. It's a lot easier normalizing a recording than it is to fix clipping.

What adapter are you using from 1/4" to XLR? A quality transformer might be better than a simple passive adapter. Also, it's fairly common to convert the output of those mics to XLR.

Thanks for the reply Bouldersound. I'm using a RadioShack 274-017C, which has a high impedance unbalanced input (1/4 inch jack) and a low impedance XLR output. This worked ok with Tascam's DA-P1 DAT recorder. I do feel a bit dubious about the recording level needing to be cranked up to max yet still requiring normalising. Perhaps there is a bit of less-than-optimum compatibility somewhere. Too low a level wastes a lot of the available bit capacity, does it not?

I'm going to take the kit around to a friend's house and we'll record his electronic organ, which ought to produce a healthy level of sound, and see whether we can replicate any of the problems I have been getting. He also has the advantage of knowing what he's talking about, having worked in the audio industry; I have quite enough to cope with playing in the band!

There may be various rogue factors contributing to the noise problem, given that the mic leads are not screened. We play in a church by Waterloo Station, with electric trains constantly passing and plenty of fire/police/ambulance traffic too. I'll must also make sure that it's nothing as basic as oxzdisation on the jack plugs.

Watch this space!

Those unbalanced mics are notoriously quiet. If they're the ones I THINK they are, I have a schematic around here somewhere for converting them to phantom power, which helps somewhat....

One solution might be to put a preamp right at the mic, keeping the unbalanced lines as short as possible.

As for the normalizing and gain adjustment, I would think you're bringing up a lot of hiss/hum and general noise along with the signal, yes?

I hope you find some more info with your friend when you take the mics over there. Keep us posted.

It wasn't clear whether the jack-XLR adaptor you are using is a straight piece of wire or a step-down transformer. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.sound-se…"]Here[/]="http://www.sound-se…"]Here[/] is a short article about converting the output of the Tandy PZM to XLR, and a more extensive mod to use phantom powering instead of battery power to cope with greater sound levels before overload.

I still have 8 Radio Shaft Pressure Zone Microphones also from about 20 years ago. They are still in an absolutely perfect operating condition and sound marvelous. Their output level is as a healthy as any other modestly priced condenser microphone. There are a couple of simple things you can do to actually improve them for the cost of next to nothing. Those RadioShack transformer converters you are talking about that go from 1/4 inch to XLR is actually knocking your level down by more than 10 DB! It's completely counterproductive to do that. The little schematic that was included with that microphone indicates it already has a balanced output transformer. They unbalanced the output of the transformer and stick on the 1/4 inch connector. You merely cut off at 1/4 inch connector. Once you strip your wires back, you will find a red, white & wrapped shield ground. Shield goes to pin 1. Red goes to pin 2 and white goes to pin 3. Then you can actually run that cable 1000 feet/333 m. (Since I don't have them in front of me at the moment I might be incorrect on the phasing of the red and white? It might be white to pin 2 and & red to pin 3? You'll have to check the phasing against a known source factory built balanced output microphone of any type.)

Then, while some folks of converted their's to phantom power, I did not find it to be an acceptable modification. So the easiest thing to do, is to either obtain 2 Eveready batteries. These batteries produced 6 V each and are one half the size of a AA battery. This will help to lower the noise floor and increase headroom and output levels. I even modified a couple with a pair of 9 V battery adapters and run a couple of those at 18 V. The batteries should be removed after each use regardless of the on-off switch and they are good for hundreds of hours of use. So that's what you should be doing to those. All you need is a couple of XLR connectors and 4 batteries for a pair of microphones.

The reason why you're adapters aren't working properly is because the microphones are a low-level, low impedance output already. You're feeding them to a high impedance input and converting them to low impedance again and that's where you're losing 10 DB worth of level. If the adapter had no transformer in it, it would be modestly viable but still not balanced and so you would still be restricted to approximately 25 feet/8 m and it would still be susceptible to all sorts of RFI & electromagnetic interference since it would still not be balanced. But the microphone is actually balanced and it was unbalanced for consumer use yet, everything you need is inside the little plastic box that includes a balanced output transformer.

As to their longevity, Radio Shaft utilized the same condenser microphone capsule from the company in which they licensed the PZM from which was Crown. And it's the same capsules listed in my $375 Crown Pressure Zone Microphone. So provided they haven't been sitting in a bucket of water, or left outside in your garage in the wintertime, the summertime, spring and fall, you should be fine. They were one of the greatest bangs for the Bucks. I also obtained less residual internal noise from utilizing the batteries as opposed to the phantom power modification. Those half size AA compatible 6 V batteries from Eveready were rather costly and general-purpose 9 V alkaline batteries are a lot less money. So, the simple modification to utilize two 9 V batteries is much less costly for the batteries. Even though it makes those little plastic boxes a little larger by having the external 9 V battery clips on either side of the plastic box. They sound even more incredible when you can deliver more than 1.5 V from a single AA battery. And they won't blow up. I've never had one fail yet in 20 years.

I love those things!
Mx. Remy Ann David

Wow.....more info than I ever knew about these things. (I did the Mods that Boswell listed, but Remy's sound like they're worth another look-see. I still have at least two of the Radio Shack, and two of the original Crown. Maybe I'll bust up the RS versions and play around with 'em.)

Great responses, folks!

Thanks Joe. I'm a plethora of useless information. Pretty funny about those Radio Shaft PZM's eh?

Thanks everybody. I took my kit round to my friend's house, where in addition to a pretty powerful electronic organ he had a drawerful of XLR plugs courtesy of his days at Decca! We did the rewiring suggested by Boswell and Remy and got an immediate increase of at least 12dB in the recording level once the adaptor had been taken out of the equation. I say "at least" because I had the limiter on and was getting a level of -2 dB and don't know whether the limiter holds it there or 0 dB. Prior to that the same input settings were giving -12 / -14 dB. Absolutely no deterioration in sound quality.

Didn't do the phantom power mod, as the 2 x 6v battery setup is fine for me.

Now I just have to wait until my next gig and see how they cope with Charles Ives and Saint-Saens 3.

Can anybody think why Tandy didn't fit XLRs in the first place?

tomu, post: 388070 wrote: Can anybody think why Tandy didn't fit XLRs in the first place?

Because their usual customer had equipment with 1/4" inputs and would be annoyed to have to buy an adapter.

Just recorded a string quartet concert in my local Tudor(!) church, with the mics taped vertically to the front of the front box pews - one mic either side of the aisle. Got a really splendid sound with high recording level and plenty of bite to the strings' attack, especially in the Shostakovich no 9 (quartet, not symphony), so no need to normalise. What was particularly pleasing was that, even though the mics were relatively close to the players, the ambient sound was well captured.

Fingers crossed that the new configuration works as well with a full orchestra.

That's an interesting technique/concept. Makes me think that what you have created, technically, is something akin to PZM microphones which I still like and still utilize. There always will be more than one way to skin a cat. OMG! I love kitties and I certainly miss mine. What fabulous little kitty people they were. I'm thinking about getting a new kitty more than I'm thinking about a new piece of equipment. It's the only love you can buy.

RIP Cleo & Pookie because I can't without them
Mx. Remy Ann David

I'll bet that sounds pretty good!

At the risk of being a spoil-sport, I'd be concerned about recording an orchestra this way. (Quartets are ONE thing...a full-out orchestra is quite another! :cool:)

You may get a lot of whatever is right in front of the mics, and likely more detail from the nearest instruments than the rest of the orch. Your "near" instruments may force you to gain-ride based on a skewed level.

For mic'ing an orch with just a stereo pair, you should have some height on the mic array, ideally directly above the conductors head (5-10 feet or so, if you have the right kind of stand or can fly them), to capture it the way he/she hears it.

You could also try making a variant of the Jecklin disc, then put it on a stand, front and center (again, as high as you can get it), and see what THAT sounds like.....

Good luck; and interested in hearing what you get!

These were recorded with PZMs. First the Quartet with the mics on the front of the box pews. This is just the last few minutes of the piece:-

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and then then the last movement of Sibelius 2nd Symphony. For orchestral recordings I tape the mics to the front of the balcony that runs across the back of the church (most amateur orchestra concerts are given in churches!) about 12 feet above floor level. You're quite right JoeH - the mics have to be back from the band or the balance would be totally screwed. Health and Safety rules and regs mean I can't put a stand in the central aisle, so this is the best Plan B. This was recorded with the old configuration, using adapters with inbuilt transformers, to fit the mics to the DR-100, and so needed normalising. Still, it gives you some idea.

(Expired Link Removed)

Files have been converted from WAV to MP3; I don't know what Dropbox will do for the overall scheme of things.

In case you're interested, I'm the bass trombone in the Sibelius. Talk about multi-tasking!

I like the quartet recording! Sounds wayyyy better than it has any right to with just 2 PZMs. I'm not a PZM hater like some folks, but I never expect much from them, and am always surprised when they sound this good. Actually, I've revived an old pair of Crown (original) PZMs and am re-using them as needed inside some pianos in larger ensembles, mainly for detail/touch-up. They still sound good.

On the orchestra recording, though, I have to be honest and say it sounds a bit too distant and watery for my taste; not enough detail, but I understand what you're dealing with, in terms of position, levels, etc.

I'm bummed to hear you're getting grief about mic placement. That old standby about "health/safety" issues is just total BS, in my opinion. I"ve often stood my ground at the 11th hour with a conductor or stage manager, and said: "It's your money. Do you want it recorded properly, or NOT?"

Very often, it's a small(minded) person with a napoleonic complex (or simply doesn't understand the process) who didn't get the memo that a professional recording is happening along with the concert, and balks at the mere sight of a tall mic stand in the middle of the performance area. I don't think twice about it now, after over 25 years of doing it. THAT's where it goes, period. We'll lower it for picture-taking beforehand, but in 99% of the church aisles where we've set up, the footprint is small enough that technically, it's not blocking ANYONE's egress. We tape down all wires so there's no tripping hazard, and we'll often mark the base area with white gaffer tape, sometimes even protecting it with kneelers so no one trips or bumps into it.

Besides, it's not permanent, and as long as people can get through, I think you're being snowed. (And if it's a recording session and not a concert; don't even try to stop me! ;-)

In most cases with us, the hall/church is being rented by the client, and when push comes to shove, the client takes responsibility for ticket-taking, ushers, basic straging & setup; chairs, stand placement, etc., while the venue is accountable only for general things, like no fires, roof leaks, explosions, etc.

I've found that as long as everyone is nice up front, uses common sense and wants it all to go as smoothly as possible, we're in and out in 4-5 hrs total, and no one's the poorer for it. smoke

Glad you like the quartet JoeH. I'm not a stringy person, really, but the complete performance of the Shostakovich was a revelation to me.

As far as the Sibelius is concerned, I agree about the lack of instrumental detail. You ought to hear the sound in the church itself though - it's got appalling acoustics, and I'm glad to be in the band and not the audience! I improve matters somewhat by changing the pick-up pattern, as the little Tandy manual suggests, by fixing a strip of carpet along the top and outer edges of the mics. A full house helps too. Still, as the church is one of four (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) built in London to commemorate the end of the Napoleonic wars and not to accommodate a symphony orchestra, I don't suppose I should complain too much. I did once play a concert in the Madeleine in Paris, where there was a reverberation time of at least 15 secs, and the old, pre-domed, Royal Albert Hall was once described as the only place where some composers would get to hear their music for a second time.

In an earlier venue I was able to use the pretty conventional system of a crossed pair of Sennheisers (originally feeding into a Revox A77!), but we lost that church. It is also pretty amazing how many audience members did contrive to walk into a stand, notwithstanding tape, borrowed traffic cones... and it's frustrating to watch that happen whilst sitting at the back of the orchestra.

A very important consideration in central London is shipping too much ironmongery around without a car. And given that a) there is precious little convenient parking space and b) I wouldn't be able to have a post-performance-pint if I did drive, I will stick with what I currently use and travel on the good old red bus.:smile:

Ha! So I nailed it or rather taped it down. Yes, putting those PZM's on the back of the front of the pews would provide adequate surface area for that low-end response.

From the rear balcony in the back, those PZM's did provide for a nice stereo ambient recording without any real true directionality. Just a beautiful wash of stereo ambience. In a situation such as that, if one had the opportunity to utilize a dual capsule, figure of 8 condenser microphone in combination with a middle/forward facing shotgun condenser microphone, a more direct sense of intimacy may be attainable, utilizing MS. It might get you closer but the stereo effect would still be one of mostly ambience. Still, it's beautiful to listen to. So it's still 100% enjoyable.

3-4 m tall collapsible aluminum stands are what most of us use and when collapsed, for travel, they are only about 1 m in length. And I might add extremely light weight with their tripod bases. I used to take a pair out with me along with a portable VHS video recorder and a Sony PCM-F1, a couple of microphones and 200 feet of cable on my motorcycle. And that was back in 1983/84 when I think I was the world's only digital, 2 track, 2 wheel remote bike. Of course we cannot forget the large clunky KOSS Pro4 Double A's. Thankfully one didn't need more than 2 VHS tapes either. And yeah, I also used to utilize my REVOX A 77's. Those were way more portable than my Scully 280 B in a portable cabinet.

You mean the good old double-decker red buses?
Mx. Remy Ann David

Ho hum. There's lots of kit that would be nice from a recording aspect, but, even though I'm impressed by the amount of gear you managed to get onto your motorbike, I notice that it doesn't include a trombone (try playing that with 'phones on) or a concert wardrobe! Glad that the Sibelius gave pleasure; it's one of my favourites to play. Just check with anybody in the National SO or the Philly band and I bet that even a hardened pro will agree.

Yes, I do mean the red double-deckers. They have been brought up-to-date so that they now accommodate wheelchairs and baby-buggies, but the colour remains the same. A couple of tourist, sorry "Heritage", routes still have some hop on/off Routemasters running. Route 9 is one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Buses_route_9_(Heritage) and it goes past the Royal Albert Hall, where your St Louis Symphony is playing one of the BBC Proms this year.:smile:

A couple of my parents family friends were the principal bass and cello instrumentalists in the Detroit & Baltimore Symphony Orchestra's. The bass player used to get his huge double bass into a VW beetle back in the 1960s. Mario was the cellist and he had one of those tiny, I think Italian automobiles, where the only door was the front door containing the steering wheel and he used to get his cello into that automobile LOL. These were totally amazing feats with these tiny tires and huge instruments. John Matthews the bass player, whose wife was the principal harpsichordist for the BSO used to transport her full-sized, and double manual custom-made harpsichords into a VW bus which was also a tight squeeze. I loved John Matthews because he was also an audiophile. He sold me my first pair of studio condenser microphones which were the Syncron AU7A's, which were the first American made FET Neumann imitations. He also sold me a Lesher tube reel to reel, 10.5 inch reel capable audio recorder. Professor Lesher had been a mathematics professor at the University of Michigan back in the 1950s/60s. I still have those collectibles to this day, more than 40 years later. It's a shame though as I'm going to have to sell the Lesher recorder as I no longer have the space to keep it. John never used it much and neither did I so it's nearly a museum piece in nearly unused condition. It's certainly a blast from the past. Years ago I got rid of my Ampex 350's when I got my Scully's. I also don't have my Presto 800 any longer which was designed and built by the forerunners who built the first Scully's for Larry Scully.

Just a little more equipment trivia
Mx. Remy Ann David

Well, that's telling me! Sounds like your friend's Italian job was an Isetta, the original bubble car. I remember that one of my tuba partners deliberately chose to buy a Mini so that he couldn't get roped into giving other folk a lift home after concerts. Tubas, double basses and harps are instruments for which you also ideally need a driving licence.

Carting harpsichords around sounds a decidedly dodgy business; retuning them in the concert hall must have been a nightmare.

It would be interesting to hoist my A77 down from the top shelf in the cupboard, see whether I can still remember how to load the tapes and whether there is anything still on any of them. Perhaps next year...

tom
diddlydoo

tomu, post: 389894 wrote: Just recorded a string quartet concert in my local Tudor(!) church,

the church is one of four (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) built in London to commemorate the end of the Napoleonic wars

I'm curious, to which church are you referring? There are relatively few Tudor churches in London and none I can think of which will accommodate a symphony orchestra - not if you want to get an audience in too. Also, nothing built to celebrate the end of the Napoleonic wars is likely to be Tudor. (Unless the Tudors had developed time travel and kept it very quiet or were very forward thinking.) The four London Waterloo Churches were built in the early 1820s as a result of the first Church Building Commission which produced a Parliamentary Grant and the Church Building Act of 1818.

I know the four Waterloo churches (assuming that you mean St. Matthew's, Brixton, St. Mark's, Kennington, St Luke's, West Norwood, and St. John's, Waterloo Road) and have recorded in three of them (and played in two). They're all basically neo-classical in style I wouldn't say that the acoustics were appalling but it's true that they're not ideal for stereo pair recordings of large scale music. Not sure I remember any 'box pews' in any of them though.

I didn't have any problems getting stands in for small scale things but for larger stuff that used more/all of the space at the front of the church I had to get a few seats taken out of the audience area so I could get my main stand in. Fortunately this was arranged well in advance - before the seats could be sold - and it wasn't a problem. This was several years ago though and I've no idea what kind of reaction the present management would give to such a suggestion.

JoeH wrote: I'm bummed to hear you're getting grief about mic placement. That old standby about "health/safety" issues is just total BS, in my opinion. I"ve often stood my ground at the 11th hour with a conductor or stage manager, and said: "It's your money. Do you want it recorded properly, or NOT?"

Very often, it's a small(minded) person with a napoleonic complex (or simply doesn't understand the process) who didn't get the memo that a professional recording is happening along with the concert, and balks at the mere sight of a tall mic stand in the middle of the performance area. I don't think twice about it now, after over 25 years of doing it. THAT's where it goes, period. We'll lower it for picture-taking beforehand, but in 99% of the church aisles where we've set up, the footprint is small enough that technically, it's not blocking ANYONE's egress. We tape down all wires so there's no tripping hazard, and we'll often mark the base area with white gaffer tape, sometimes even protecting it with kneelers so no one trips or bumps into it.

Besides, it's not permanent, and as long as people can get through, I think you're being snowed. (And if it's a recording session and not a concert; don't even try to stop me! ;-)

In most cases with us, the hall/church is being rented by the client, and when push comes to shove, the client takes responsibility for ticket-taking, ushers, basic straging & setup; chairs, stand placement, etc., while the venue is accountable only for general things, like no fires, roof leaks, explosions, etc.

I've found that as long as everyone is nice up front, uses common sense and wants it all to go as smoothly as possible, we're in and out in 4-5 hrs total, and no one's the poorer for it.

I can see this point of view and agree that jobsworths are extremely frustrating. I don't know about the US - it's a long time since I recorded a concert in a church there - but in the UK there are very strict safety rules about things like widths of walkways, particularly fire escapes, in public areas. These are part of the conditions written into a venue's public performance license, strict adherence to which will form part of any hire contract, and if it comes to a straight yes/no argument are immovable. Saying at the eleventh hour "It's your money. Do you want it recorded properly, or NOT?" is likely to result in a lot of people getting irate with each other, and possibly you being unceremoniously turfed out without any money and finding it harder to work in the same venue/area again.

All venues receive regular fire inspections (how regular depends upon how busy they are and their past track record) sometimes these inspections take the form of unannounced spot checks whilst some receive visits from fire safety inspectors before every show and if a stand is in a non-approved place, will be told to remove it immediately or the show can be cancelled, the audience told to leave and there is no financial recourse for the hirer if the problem was caused by them or their contractor. I've recorded a few concerts where the performance has been delayed by H+S inspectors refusing to clear the show unless some rule infringement is resolved. Thankfully I haven't yet been responsible for one of these delays - it always seems to be down to caterers running cables across fire escapes/running too many appliances off one dodgy extension lead/putting too many tables into an agreed space or vidiots putting their cameras and cables where they've already been told three times that they can't go!

Thankfully, some venues are more relaxed than others in how they apply their H+S regulations. Some ignore them in so far as is sensible and let you get on with your job on the basis that you're a professional doing a job, you know what you're doing, won't willfully do stupid things for fun and won't be trying to kill anyone; some are 'flexible' in their interpretation of things like gangway widths/what constitutes an obstruction/etc. and may be negotiated with over stand sizes, positions and perhaps an offer to seat someone next to a slightly contentious stand to protect/remove it in the event of an emergency. It usually depends upon how well they know you and having a good track record with a venue in regard to not doing things to annoy them or cause problems. However some are absolutely immovable in applying the rules to the letter. These tend to be the places who have zealous safety inspectors or whose local councils have very active safety officers. Or where they've been hauled up for some transgression in the past and are still trying to keep their licence and pay off the fines whilst groveling to their insurance companies to avoid needing to mortgage the building for the next week's cover! Larger venues tend to have in-house safety managers, some of whom have no idea of applying common sense or who are terrified of the consequences of the slightest deviation from the book of rules, whilst others have the skills and confidence to asses a situation and take a sensible position. I've worked in a few places where a health and safety officer was permanently assigned to supervise us or inspected us every hour or so over a three day rig. Thankfully they were sensible and pragmatic and I hadn't done anything daft so we got on fine but I heard from them tales of outright idiocy on the part of other recording crews.

Anyway, there's usually a way around most problems, only occasionally is there an immovable object and, when that happens, either the recording has to take some degree of compromise or sometimes it's better not to bother and perhaps take the next show in a different venue. But yes, it's all down to planning and as long as everyone is sensible, reasonable and does what they agree it's rarely a problem.

Any confusion here might be down to me, so I'm sorry to disappoint you on the matter of time travel. The quartet was recorded in Old St Mary's Church in Stoke Newington, (a vibrant area of north London for the benefit of any US readers), whereas the Sibelius was recorded in St John's, Waterloo. The latter is the one with the poor acoustics. It is St Mary's that has some rather rickety Victorian box pews, but they will be removed when work is eventually done to turn the place into an arts centre, albeit one for small groups and not a symphony orchestra.

I have also played and recorded in St Luke's, West Norwood, where the acoustics are better - different architect - and where the church was very accommodating. I was able to run a wire across the church, between a couple of pillars and leave it there for several seasons. However, it did involve some hairy pre and post-concert gymnastics to put up and take down the mics. We also had a H & S inspector come around between rehearsal and concert to cast his eye over things, but luckily I was never walking the tightrope at the time.

I believe that St John's charges extra if an organisation wants to put up mic stands, though I couldn't swear to that as I don't book the venue. There are no pillars there either, so the option of suspending mics as in St Luke's does not exist, even if they'd let us.

I know that decent directional mics help to get around the acoustic problems for recordings, they certainly did in St James's, Piccadilly, another place where the audience gets a poor sound. Still we have to make do with what is available and we are, after all, an amateur orchestra playing a concert, not doing a studio or quasi-studio commercial session. Problems with caterers would be a luxury - we have to make do with a tea urn.

It was quite an eye-opener when we did actually get booked to do a few studio sessions for the SilvaScreen label; music by Franz Waxman and Max Steiner among others. I reckon we got booked because we were cheaper than the LSO even though we took n times as long to get it spot on! Their engineers made us sound quite respectable!

Thanks for the description of the situation over there, OVU. I can't speak for that part of the world, but here in the States, things certainly seem to be more relaxed.

In most cases, in most churches, few would care at all, unless one is blatantly blocking an aisle or an exit. THAT gets folks' attention very quickly, indeed. duh
Firemarshalls get called only after complaints, in most cases. Spot-checks are rare, unless he/she happens to be a member of the congregation. (And I HAVE seen that happen! ;-)

Your description of the current state of affairs (no offense meant, really) seems almost Pythonian - Fire marshalls/offiicals frequently showing up and saying things like: "Right! That mic stand has to go! Someone could put an eye out on that boom adjustment clamp! Don't want any old ladies tripping over the base or trying to use it for a walking stick now, now DO we? Off you go!"

Seriously, from your description, it really does seem like a lot of folks with a lot of time on their hands, just waiting for a transgressor to have the nerve to put up a microphone stand in an aisle somewhere. Maybe it's a different state of affairs (and I'm NOT questioning your story), but do they REALLY show up and spot check choral concerts, recitals, and the like? Really???

Maybe it's me, or maybe the aisles are wider over here (newer construction than the venerated and centuries-old houses of worship over there), but I can count on one hand how many times in nearly 26 years we've been told we can't put a stand somewhere. (Then again, maybe we're used to the rules here... ;-) And of course, we're running no-voltage/low-voltage (48v phantom) wires around, and most modern US churches are cinderblock & slate floor construction with fire-retardent carpeting, so "Fire" isn't much of a concern at most churches these days. Even votive candles are scarce, if at all!

Of course, my approach has ALWAYS been (as I call it) "minimally invasive". Our stands for the instruments are always onstage with the musicians, cable runs are always out of the way, and minimal clutter onstage, as much as we can help it. Main runs (like snakes, etc.) are taped down wherever there is foot traffic (NEVER in the audience's path), ditto for choral access. The mics out in the audience are usually a pair of omni out-riggers/flanks, often on tall stands, placed tight against a pew or pillar, and again, the dreaded "Center pair" is usually right behind/over the conductor's podium. (If they allow the podium, they can't help but allow the mic stand, as long as we're not blocking anything/anyone's egress.)

But I have to say, more and more, few people even comment or throw restrictions at us. Maybe we're good at it, or maybe things have relaxed, I really don't know anymore. (Of course 90% of our live recordings are repeats, at venues we've been in, many many times over the years)

And here's one more thing to consider in this beating-a-dead-horse discussion: it's now quite a competitive world around here (East Coast/Urban&Suburban Cities): Many city churches have come back from the brink of extinction (70's, 80's, early 90's) and have found ways to survive, even thrive in some cases. Some have huge endowments, some have painstakingly rebuilt their congregations. In many many cases, the ones that are thriving have become centers of cultural awareness; hosting concerts, art events, group meetings, etc. Being "Community-based" plays a large part of mere survival in many churches here. Even parking gets relaxed on event days. Many churches have neighborhood-based agreements with the parking authority, and issue parking permits to certain # of vehicles on otherwise no-parking streets.

Allowing concerts is one part, moreover, cooperation with those that mount them is critical. Word does get around as to who's a difficult church to deal with, and who's cooperative. Believe me, my clients often rent a hall based on this more than anything else: rehearsals, equipment load-in, dressing/ready-rooms, parking & and even Narthex-size & restrooms come into play. There's no coercion or collusion going on, but people (promoters, presenters) do tend to give repeat business to places that are helpful and cooperative. Recordings are most often done for fulfillment of a grant endowment; make that recording difficult to do, and I assure you, the client things twice about ever coming back. And to be fair, advance planning, emails to bldg managers, stage plots, etc. go a long long away to avoid any ugly surprises at dress rehearsal time...

There's one church in particular (in Center-City Philadelphia) that has had a horrible reputation; cranky ***tant/building manager, difficult hours, etc. etc. It's all changed as of two years ago, but folks are slow to return, and the word on the street hasn't caught up to the reality; they couldn't be more helpful or cooperative now, and are thrilled to help & support outside companies that want to rent, record & produced events in their space.

Again, things would seem to be very different over there in the UK, but we deal with basically three criteria for mic stands, camera tripod, cables, etc:
1. Safety - no tripping or egress hazards 2. Visual appeal - no uneccessary visual distractions 3. Audience comfort (not blocking seats/views).

It's usually easy to pull off 2 and 3, and absolutely mission-critical for #1.

Paron me if this seems rude, but your description of things over there seems like a long list of what one CANNOT do. My experience here, for the last 26 yrs or so, would seem to be far less restricted, with or without the firemarshall.

Cheers,
(y)

I expect that your H & S issues in the US are dealt with by local boroughs just as they are here. I'm afraid that I cannot say that it is just that some of our boroughs are more relaxed than others, as the borough of Lambeth covers both St Luke's, which certainly did get a visit between rehearsal and concert, and St John's, where I have seen no sign of one. It may just be down to the convenience or inclination of the local inspector. Piccadilly is in Westminster and I never saw any official come to St James's. I have seen people walk into mic stands, so narrowish aisles are best avoided when Joe Public is around; since my recordings are of actual live concerts, that means all the time!