You might want to give some more indication of your budget and how you plan to use your gear beyond this gig. I'd also suggest that you check out the acoustic recording forum for tips on orchestral recording.

I gave the Tascam recorder manual a quick look, and I don't see where you can record four channels of external line in. And it looks like the one line input is an unbalanced stereo 1/8 jack. Is this correct? If so, I would not be so quick to buy a preamp. Placement is going to be far more critical than the quality of your preamp. A really good mic stand might be a far better investment, and you could get a good mic stand for about the same price as a crappy preamp.

Even if I have read the Tascam specs wrong, I would not buy a "bargain" preamp. You already have one in the Tascam. Buying a high quality preamp might not give you much improvement in sound because of the limitations of the Tascam. But at least it will be a good investment. Preamps are stable technology - a Grace or something similar will still be useful 10 year from now.

BobRogers, post: 349013 wrote: You might want to give some more indication of your budget and how you plan to use your gear beyond this gig. I'd also suggest that you check out the acoustic recording forum for tips on orchestral recording.

I gave the Tascam recorder manual a quick look, and I don't see where you can record four channels of external line in. And it looks like the one line input is an unbalanced stereo 1/8 jack. Is this correct? If so, I would not be so quick to buy a preamp. Placement is going to be far more critical than the quality of your preamp. A really good mic stand might be a far better investment, and you could get a good mic stand for about the same price as a crappy preamp.

Even if I have read the Tascam specs wrong, I would not buy a "bargain" preamp. You already have one in the Tascam. Buying a high quality preamp might not give you much improvement in sound because of the limitations of the Tascam. But at least it will be a good investment. Preamps are stable technology - a Grace or something similar will still be useful 10 year from now.

Ok, I'll check out the acoustic forum. Just what I need. You are right, the Tascam DR 100 is 2 channel XLR. But I have another similar M-audio device that I forgot to mention. That will have Rode NT4 stereo microphone. Regarding the preamp, I was thinking about it bumping up the quality of the all the mic signals coming in, no? I'll be more careful about mic placement next time, but am looking for some higher quality results than what I got last time.

I think it's a bad idea to think of a preamp as "bumping up the quality" of the signal from a mic. The first job of a preamp is to amplify the signal from the mic with all of its dynamics and harmonic content intact. Anything beyond that - coloring the signal - is very subtle. Far more subtle than moving a microphone a few feet. A cheap preamp will probably not respond to fast transients and large spikes as well as a good one and some of the full signal produced by your mic will be lost. If you get a good preamp and plug it into the XLR inputs in the Tascam the signal will still go through the Tascam preamps. Maybe those preamps will do a good job of passing through the signal at unity gain - maybe not. If you position your mics well and set the gain on the Tascam correctly my guess is that you will be close to the best quality possible the two pieces of equipment you have.

Bob, thanks for enlightening me. So what is the difference between a pre-amp and just turning up the levels on a recording if a preamp mostly just amplifies the signal from the mic? Isn't that what the level would do already? I've always heard people describe preamps as warm, but you make it sound like they won't do that.

I see two different questions here:
1) Do we need an external mic pre-amp when using the(audio technica 4047) and (Tascam DR100) ?
2) Will an external mic pre-amp improve the sound?
Never having used either, I don't know.

The Tascam has a preamp. That is what you are turning up when you turn up the recording levels. It takes a microphone level voltage and produces a line level voltage. A better preamp will do the same thing. A "perfect" preamp would produce an exact copy of the microphone signal - just magnified to a larger voltage. There are no perfect preamps. They all distort the signal to one degree or another. But "all" preamps used in recording (including the cheap ones) are pretty close to perfect - at least in the low part of their range. If you push them a little harder the differences become greater and the cheap preamps show noticeable distortion at a much lower level than the good ones. This is the big difference between cheap preamps and good preamps: headroom - the range of signals they can be fed while still staying in the "close to perfect" range.

However, even good preamps show small audible differences at high levels - and here is where the descriptors come in: warm, colored, transparent, etc. Audio engineers talking about top dollar equipment can talk endlessly about these subtle differences, but it's not a good thing for a beginner to get too caught up in. The basic mission of the preamp is to do no harm to the original signal. It's not going to improve a signal where the quality isn't there in the first place.

Now back to your specific problem - focusing on the Tascam. You have two options. (1) Put the mic into the Tascam preamp through the XLR inputs. The line level signal from the Tascam pre will go directly to the Tascam A/D converters. (2) Put the mic into an external preamp and then take the line level signal from the preamp and put it into either (a) the XLR inputs into the Tascam preamp with the level turned down to unity gain or (b) through some sort of adapter into the 1/8 inch line input of the Tascam. Now, if your external preamp is substantially better than the Tascam's pre the line level signal coming out of the external pre in scenario (2) will be better than the line level coming out of the Tascam preamp in scenario (1). But it's still not clear that scenario (2) will yield a better result. You still have to go through some steps that might distort the signal to get the converters.

I'm very confused by this. It goes against a lot of what I've heard from other engineers so is it safe to say there is no concensus? You say: "But it's still not clear that scenario (2) will yield a better result. ". My only interest in all of this is to get the better result. Please clarify this - lets say I have two tascam recorders, four identical microphones. Two of the mics go straight into the tascam XLR input. The other two mics go into a good pre-amp that then goes into the tascam XLR input. I adjust the levels so they sound the same in both recorders recording at the same time in the same venue/mic placement, etc. I assume that will mean I have to bump up the level of the microphones that goes straight into the tascam. From what I understand of what you are saying, if the levels are the same on both recorders, the quality of the sound will be the same. That is very surprising to me if that would be the result. If the quality of the sound is better with the expensive pre-amp, then that achieves exactly what I want...the better result.

I don't that that consensus is possible. Of the large group of engineers that will say "an expensive mic pre-amp will sound better" each engineer will chose a different expensive pre-amp. I think that different mics have a greater impact than different mic and mic pre-amp combination's. But then different mic techniques will have much greater impact.

What Bob is trying delicately to tell you is that a better preamp will make no difference with the low end non-quality recorder you are using. To benefit from a better preamp you will also need a better recorder. I'm a little more blunt.

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. I get that - the system is only as good as the weakest link in the chain. Makes sense.

The differences in equipment are much, much smaller than the possible technique differences. You need to practice, practice, practice! Go to different rehearsals (anyplace that people will let you) try different things.

+1 on the practice part.

On the other I would agree once one passes a certain price/quality point, and the Tascam is not past that point.

This may be a moot point at this point, but I feel obliged to point out that the AT-4047 is NOT a "stereo" mic as was first stated by the OP. I happen to own 2 of these mics, and love them to death, but unless there was a mistake in the model# listed, these are really not the best choice for the application described. Furthermore, their output can easily overdrive the inputs on a recorder like that TaxScam...:)

For some interesting reading on the thoughts of two well known experts on mics and classical music recording see:

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.linkwitz…-"]Linkwitz-Publications[/]="http://www.linkwitz…-"]Linkwitz-Publications[/]

Don Barringer and Siegfried Linkwitz have put together AES papers, slide presentations, and sound tracks on their experiences. Now, this is not the only way to record and it may or may-not be the best way but it is interesting thought process.

I've posted a recording from my concert here: http://recording.org/acoustic-music-forum/46069-feedback-please-my-orchestral-recording.html#post350245

I would love feedback.

Millennia Media seems to dominate this market.... They sound unbelievable...

Maybe not dominate. One of the very heavy players to be sure. And completely a waste of resources if you are feeding the Tascam unit mentioned by the OP.

TheJackAttack, post: 350605 wrote: Maybe not dominate. One of the very heavy players to be sure. And completely a waste of resources if you are feeding the Tascam unit mentioned by the OP.

It's hard to agree with this statement having recorded the same concert with two different recording units - tascam without the external pre-amp and tascam with the external pre-amp. I'm not saying I wouldn't get better results with a better recording device, but that goes without saying - if all else is equal, any week element can be exchanged with an improved item and the quality of the final result improves, right? What is clear to me is with all things being equal, the pre-amp was a very noticeable step up to the recording sound. Though I can't deny you are more experienced than I am, I take issue with your statement "And completely a waste of resources".

By the way, the pre-amp referenced in the audio clip was not Millennia but a Neve 1073.

Ahhh, but you wouldn't have to spend $3500 on a Millennia to get a preamp that would provide the same amount of improvement. An $800 Onyx 800R would have done just as good a job or likely the Presonus 8 preamp unit would too. That is my point. There is only so much improvement you can wring out of Tascam.

TheJackAttack, post: 350627 wrote: Ahhh, but you wouldn't have to spend $3500 on a Millennia to get a preamp that would provide the same amount of improvement. An $800 Onyx 800R would have done just as good a job or likely the Presonus 8 preamp unit would too. That is my point. There is only so much improvement you can wring out of Tascam.

Ok, fair enough. That makes sense and I can't deny that. The Millennia only cost me $50 to rent and was money well spent in my opinion. But if I were to own it, that wouldn't make sense with my currently limited equipment.

Good external preamps into your units line level inputs will yield different and/or better results than the built-in microphone preamps can deliver. And instead of that crispy crunchy imitation FET 47 why not try one of their new stereo ribbon microphones. That's where you're going to get all of the warmth with terrific presence. That would even sound good with your recorders built-in microphone preamp's guaranteed. Ribbons are always lush, full, no harshness.

Ribbon lover
Mx. Remy Ann David

While it has only 2 channels, I often use a Grace Lunatec preamp with the S/Pdif out into a Tascam HD P2 recorder. The Grace gives superlative audio and its AD converters are excellent. Most popular mic is an AT 4050 M/S combo. Have used a MOTU 896 (has 8 mic pres) but not good for classical recording, so now have the latest RME UFX as it has excellent pres, AD converters and both USB and Firewire outs for the PC.

no one has mentioned True systems?? I have a buddy who conducts 2 of the major Philharmonics in the US and that is what he uses.

True gets plenty of love around here. That's what I use to record classical as well. And pretty much everything else too at this point.

However, this was a student last spring who was running the audio into a Tascam flash recorder. The summary is that there wasn't too much point in going wild and crazy with the preamp since the limiting factor was going to be the Tascam circuitry. I am begrudgingly coming around to the idea that some of the Tascam gear may not be as heinous as the boards of the 90's, but it is a slow healing process for me. ;-)

Now is your buddy conducting or recording? The Music Director doesn't get to say crap about what the recording engineer gets to use. Just sayin'.

he is the conductor for multiple philharmonics, but he purchased n behalf of the recording eng. I went last winter to see him in NY, it was nuts. He also purchased the same thing for himself. I have sold sound devices also to a world renowned pianist for his own recordings. Those guys are very particular.

Sound Devices is a whole other scenario. Those are great. Tascam isn't in that league no matter if they've improved. As a piano tuner though I can tell you that many pianists are completely unaware!!! We joke around about doing AB tests with a piece of gear on bypass but we ain't got nuttin on many pianists and their "tone." And you'll have to bear in mind when you read my posts that I view conductors from a principal horn players perspective! Often times they could stand to conduct a few more kilojules and a few less beats in a bar :-)

On the question of Tascam and other recorders digital, I tried the preamps on my HD P2 and quickly decided that they were probably OK for a casual recording task (like a feel-good PR exercise), however for serious recording a NO NO. Have used several really good preamps into mediocre recorders over the last couple of years and provided they were treated as 'bit buckets' to store the recording, all were pretty good. That view is of course on the basis that you can get SPDIF or equivalent into the recorder, along with the sync signal. What i now get with the Grace/Tascam combo is first rate, clear and transparent. Am sure there be many other really good preamps out there that can interface with modest recorders (although perhaps a bit harder to find in Australia).