If we would look at the world from the 100% ethical point of view which is ofcourse the ideal one, then life would simply be impossible the way we know it. There would not be oil, coss there are more ppl dying from the production of oil then there are of cancer. Almost every big war in this world is being held because of this black stuff. And almost everything we use has been made using that exact substance.

Computers, Speakers, Cable's, mixers, synthesizers, mics (this list can go on eternaly). If there's plastic in it, it's oil and thus ppl have died to make it, it's as simple as that.

And most of the expensive gear manufacturers are many times sub divisions of bigger company's which aren't as ethical as we all would like to believe. This is a mixed up world....

Originally posted by Warhead:

I did some internet searches and found no connection between Behringer and slave labor .... .... I have concluded that Behringer is being unjustly held to a different light than PMI, Levi's or NADY.
..... If Behringer were as trigger happy with the lawyers as some other companies, they'd have a field day in here!

Warren

Warren,
Once again, I haven't been speaking of slave labor but rather "forced prison labor". There is a small difference. I don't buy Levis, I stopped for these same reasons when they moved their manufacturing offshore. I don't use Nady products at all. I really don't care for any of their stuff. If I were to hear that they were doing this, I would try to spread the word on them too. I also try not to buy anything that comes from China for the most part. You specifically mentioned PMI and I addressed this at least twice in this thread. I went on one of these rants regarding this a year ago. Search the back threads in PMI. It’s all there. I have asked Alan Hyatt (the owner of PMI and RO moderator) about this and he stepped up to the plate and answered the questions. I learned that PMIs manufacturing is done by 797. This company is well known to provide some of the best wages and working conditions in China.

I want to point out that you and others seem to be willing to give a company that has consistently proven they are unethical in areas of design procurement and sales the "benefit of the doubt" instead of choosing to err on the side of human rights. I find this disturbing. I personally do not use or purchase products from any company if there is even a hint of this and I feel the onus of proving this untrue to fall upon them. If they want my dollars, I want to know how they go about producing their products. If they are deceptive in other business practices, then I feel it is fair to assume they may be unfair in other areas. This "wait and see" attitude is how companies get away with exploiting workers and union busting. This has been an ongoing struggle between capital and the workers for hundreds of years. This is nothing new. Look at history. Every time big business get the chance, they will abuse the working class. Business has no social consciousness.

Instead of asking me to prove the allegations and rumors, why aren't you asking Behringer to show the world the working conditions in which they produce their products? After all it is your money they are trying to get you to spend on their products. You certainly have a right to know. But they hide these answers fiercely and anyone who asks about the condition the workers have to perform under is treated as if they were looking for the designs of weapons of mass destruction. It is these multinational corporations that should be held to a high standard not some ordinary guy who simply asks the questions. They are much more able to prove that it ain’t so by simply opening their doors to the public, than I am able to prove that it is. But just because I don’t have any proof readily at hand, doesn’t mean these abuses aren’t occurring. It only shows that these companies are adept at hiding the answers. Here in the "Western World", we have a basic tenant of law, the accused are innocent until proven guilty, but then Behringer isn't doing their manufacturing in the "Western World" are they?

I was having a conversation in a chat room with a man from the PRC a while back.

I asked how it was possible he could afford to spend three to four months wages on a computer (which would be like me spending over $15,000 on a PC) and he explained that because so many things like education, medical care, housing, etc. were provided free by the state, wages were essentially pure disposable income.

I am not in any way defending any totalitarian government. I only use this example to show that you cannot directly compare western wages to chinese wages. There are plenty of people in the USA who, once you subtract what they pay for housing, education, medical care, taxes, etc. may not end up netting any more than the "slave labor" Chinese worker.

It would be great to have a full disclosure on where the various companies manufacture their goods, and under what conditions. There would probably be some surprises.
You folks have to excuse Kurt for his ranting here. Please note that he lived in San Fransisco and is probably one of them bleeding-heart liberals you here about. He seems to think human rights are important, and probably other stuff like education and the environment. I think all of us who know better should try to convince Kurt that caring about the plight of other human beings is wrong, and deserves no play in the consideration of purchasing audio gear. Let's try to keep in mind that these people in forced labor camps are all foreigners. They look different and they don't count as much as us, and we would never let our government force us into labor camps either. Come on, the only thing that counts is cheep, cheep, cheep (and how cool everybody online sez that the gear sounds).
So you maybe wondering why I am taking it to Kurt for his stupid concern about human rights. It's cuz I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU, which stands for Americans Concerned about Liberals Uttering stupid crap. Yep, gotta watch them liberals. No sarcasm here. ;) Doc

. I think all of us who know better should try to convince Kurt that caring about the plight of other human beings is wrong,

You must be joking. In this case it is not a very funny one.

Let's try to keep in mind that these people in forced labor camps are all foreigners.

Thats right. They are foreigners. For Nazis all, except of Germans were foreigners--kill them, put into gas cameras, concentrational camps.

[/QUOTE]They look different and they don't count as much as us

That is the exact phrase from Dr. Gebbels speach.

So you maybe wondering why I am taking it to Kurt for his stupid concern about human rights.

For me it is not stupid, but essential for every human being. What kind of man you are, David Doc Herbert?

Originally posted by white swan:
.... once you subtract what they pay for housing, education, medical care, taxes, etc. may not end up netting any more than the "slave labor" Chinese worker.

It almost sounds as if you are making an argumet for socialisim. I would actually think that this would be a valid point if you had been speaking to a person who was in a Chinese prison being forced to work for no wage at all. You were probably talking to someone who actually owned their own business or is receiving a higher than average wage, considering he could afford that computer. They don't have access to computers, much less Internet, in Chinese prisons. They are not very nice places. Educate yourself. Contact Amnesty International and get the facts.

The least imaginative method of increasing profit is by looking to the labor costs. These companies pay next to nothing to the workers who they couldn't produce without while the Executives give themselves fat pay raises. Meanwhile skilled educated workers in the US and Europe and being laid off or asked to accept poverty wages so the company can compete.

Now all the service jobs they told us would be ours ten years ago, are starting to go to China and India. Pretty soon, there won't be any jobs at all left in the US. People won’t even be able to afford Behringer gear! Multinational corporations see China and India as their new markets. This is why they want all the jobs over there where they can sell cigarettes and Coca Cola, producing and selling products free of any environmental restrictions and free of any public or worker health and safety concerns. Ahh but to hell with the workers there and here. **** ‘em. What really is important is that we can get our crappy toys at 1/10th the price they should cost.. right? Never mind the human suffering it creates. And lets all fool ourselves and tell ourselves how fortunate these workers are that Multinational corporations are exploiting them. How selfish can we get?

Originally posted by Marik:

. I think all of us who know better should try to convince Kurt that caring about the plight of other human beings is wrong,

You must be joking. In this case it is not a very funny one.

Let's try to keep in mind that these people in forced labor camps are all foreigners.

Thats right. They are foreigners. For Nazis all, except of Germans were foreigners--kill them, put into gas cameras, concentrational camps.

They look different and they don't count as much as us

That is the exact phrase from Dr. Gebbels speach.

So you maybe wondering why I am taking it to Kurt for his stupid concern about human rights.

For me it is not stupid, but essential for every human being. What kind of man you are, David Doc Herbert?

Marik,
Doc was being very, very sarcastic. Doc is a nice and kind person and was actually pointing out how selfish some of the remarks being posted here were... at least that's how I read it. ... :tu:

Marik,
Doc was being very, very sarcastic. Doc is a nice and kind person and was actually pointing out how selfish some of the remarks being posted here were... at least that's how I read it. ...

Sorry if I misread it. If it is so, Doc, please my deepest apologies, and Kurt, if you feel it appropriate, please remove my message.

Now all the service jobs they told us would be ours ten years ago, are starting to go to China and India. Pretty soon, there won't be any jobs at all left in the US. People won’t even be able to afford Behringer gear!

It is truly scary! More and more factories are closing as manufacturing is moving to China and Mexico. It is all based on short-termed thinking and immediate profit, to hell with the future!

There is no way this trend can continue, it is destined for failure one way or another, and both ways spell "d-i-s-a-s-t-e-r".

I am honestly pretty scared...

As far as my DDX purchase...it never dawned on me to consider Behringer's manufacturing process, or even *which* Chinese factory it was manufactured in. It just goes to show you what the "lure of low-pricing" can do to your sense of judgement. And actually, I have never heard the "forced labor" story before..."cheap labor", yes, but never forced prison labor.

How can the Western World compete with that???

It is a bit of a deja vu with the US automobile industry going down to the Japanese import rush in the 1980's...

Hopefully somebody will get creative and find a way to manufacture this stuff at a lower price point with higher quality here in the US...automation maybe? Does it take a crisis in the making before somebody wakes up and takes action?

Sounds like a boycott is coming...

I'm satisfied that logic cannot win over emotion in this post. When I say that, I mean the fact that many here cannot distinguish the difference between "a guy on a bass forum said" (which turned out to be nonsense and unrelated) and "ask Amnesty International" (when they themselves won't ask them about Behringer etc. and provide facts about a claim that is supposed to be dear to their heart) and facts. Anyone who is passionate about Behringer's labor practices and hasn't pursued the truth is NOT, I repeat NOT interested in the truth. They are interested in all the stuff they can say and get away with without really knowing or facing the truth.

When you find the truth (ok nobody will), bring it to us even if Behringer pays better than 797 Audio and has casual Fridays and steak and saki night. Find forced prison labor at either plant, and I'll slap these guys myself and shove their product right up their ass! F*ck anyone doing this sh*t!

There are no facts here, these are statements made by folks who hate Behringer gear pure and simple. I don't like all their gear, I like this mixer (which is the original poster's subject) and feel we're all entitled to hate it or like it for real reasons. OK, hell, you can hate it for dumb reasons too because you're entitled and you don't need a license to have an opinion. Just don't make those rants out to be "facts".

I'm cool with all this crap, it's the fact that these statements are taken for truth because of the way people want to feel about this subject. I'm going to try and back out of this thread now, since it's turned into an unproductive opportunity to sling mud. I'm going to go plug my Studio Projects mics into my Behringer mixer and sing about world peace. :)

Warren

Originally posted by Warhead

Anyone who is passionate about Behringer's labor practices and hasn't pursued the truth is NOT, I repeat NOT interested in the truth.

(please insert the Waves Bundled Jack Nicholson plug-in now)
The truth....the truth.. You can't handle the truth!

sorry, thought this thread could use a little brevity. Couldn't agree more Warhead, there seems to be a negative vibe on the RO bandwidth these days. Maybe its Halloween/ Full moon/ PMS who knows? I think we all could use a little more compression - Keep the essense of our passions, but limit some of the spikes that ruin a good take. To quote MJ
"I'm startin' with the man in the mirror"
:p:

As I said a bit earlier (twice) there was some stuff on the Mackie site regarding this issue but it was removed since they settled with Sam Ash / Samson last week. I will look into this (please be patient) and as soon as I can find some facts I will post it. I will back off this too as Warhead did until I can find some facts to back my position. I have been busy the past few days between fghting flames here and recording and I haven't had the time to research this further.

This is a fact. China uses forced prison labor. Behringer does not allow anyone into their factories in China. Behringer seems to be able to sell a mic, whose design was ripped off from Studio Projects, at half the price as PMI who also manufactures their products in China, at 797. Now in some way, Behringer is cutting costs. Gee, I wonder how???

One last time I encourage anyone who is concerned about this to continue to ask the questions. Do the research. Remember the tobacco industry told us all there was no proof that cigarettes caused cancer when they knew it wasn't true. To ask the consumer to prove that prison labor isn't being utilized in the manufacturer of Behringer products is the same approach the tobacco industries used to evade the truth. It is exactly the same tactic. Big business does this all the time. If this is not the case I call upon Behringer to open the doors, answer the question and resolve the issue. I don't think Behringer will ever do that however.

Kurt,
I wasn't trying to discredit or doubt you on this issue. But, part of the answer lies in your question. How can they produce this product for so much less? They're not doing ANY R & D! I don't think anyone is disagreeing ( at least not strenuously) that they're merely copying other manufacturer's products. With a big enough company able to buy massive amounts of parts to manufacture electronic gear through legal, black or grey markets - its quite probable that they could undercut everyone and still not subscribe to the labor practices discussed in this forum. Is it possible they're doing both of these unethical business practices? That too is not out of the realm of possibility. But it is, by all accounts, a VERY serious allegation and needs to be treated as such regardless of one's opinions of their product.
I think I'm up to .08 now. so I'll shut up on this issue too.
Phil

Interesting thread. Lot's of important concerns here. Good people, good talk.

I have a good close friend who just returned from a long vacation into the interior of China. I'll ask him if he has any insight into any of these issues.

:p:

Tommy P.

I'm going to go plug my Studio Projects mics into my Behringer mixer and sing about world peace.

Now that is Fricken FUNNY! I got a full 2-min belly laugh out of that one. Thanks!

In case any one still cares, my last post was hugley sarcastic.
DoubleHelix- I would submit that the Japanese car imports effect on the big three was benefitial, forcing them to update technology, styles, become more efficient, etc. The Japanese were not relying on forced labor, but rather an inspired workforce that cranked out great products at a great price.
David

Just to clear up any confusion, my semi off-topic remarks about the economic fallacy of arithmetically comparing the wages of workers in China vs. the USA as a way of judging standard of living and/or consumer buying power was in no way a personal endorsement of communism, slave labor, or unbridled greed.

As a matter of fact, it was neither a personal or philosophical endorsement of anything at all, contrary to what others may have read into it.

And should someone try to read even further into those remarks, I'm not endorsing child pornography, genocide, or the Spanish Inquisition either.

Today's stars are tomorrow's meteor fragments.

I know this is horribly off-topic and nitpicking, Warhead, but the amateur astronomer part of me demands that I clarify a bit.

To be technically correct, your signature line should read:

"Today's comets are tomorrow's meteor fragments."

It is actually quite an interesting topic, but probably not for this board! :w:

WhiteSwan,
The Spanish Inquisition? Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition (Monty Python).
I wrote an email to Amnesty International requesting info on this issue. I don't think any of us would want to support a company that uses forced labor, and it would be good to know who uses it. David

I spend a fair amount of time traveling to factories around the world. I generally find that what you hear from the governments (all) and the press and the amnesty internationals of the world, are all sprinkled a little with truth and a little with selectivity.

All of these groups are into control and position and none in my opinion can truly be trusted to provide a 360 degree view.

The one thing that you can be sure of is that you cannot be sure of anything. (starting to sound like Yogi Berra). :cool:

Its good to raise aweareness, but it is even better to double check your sources and determine whether or not they have any hidden agendas.

Good thread, so far. Thanks for keeping it clean and civil.

Steve

Hey Doc!

DoubleHelix- I would submit that the Japanese car imports effect on the big three was benefitial, forcing them to update technology, styles, become more efficient, etc. The Japanese were not relying on forced labor, but rather an inspired workforce that cranked out great products at a great price.

Actually, that was my point exactly! Read the following *TWO* paragraphs from my original post:

It is a bit of a deja vu with the US automobile industry going down to the Japanese import rush in the 1980's...

Hopefully somebody will get creative and find a way to manufacture this stuff at a lower price point with higher quality here in the US...automation maybe? Does it take a crisis in the making before somebody wakes up and takes action?

I agree that we all need a wakeup call like what happened to the auto industry before we all find outselves standing in the bread line...

Originally posted by white swan:

Today's stars are tomorrow's meteor fragments.

I know this is horribly off-topic and nitpicking, Warhead, but the amateur astronomer part of me demands that I clarify a bit.

To be technically correct, your signature line should read:

"Today's comets are tomorrow's meteor fragments."

It is actually quite an interesting topic, but probably not for this board! :)

Warren