That's a pretty wide open question, but I would rather have a good player in a good room with all SM-57's and a mackie than a bad player with ELAMs and U67's and an API board. With a good player, really good gear is just icing on the cake.

Regards
Nathan Eldred
Atlas Pro Audio, Inc.
http://www.atlasproaudio.com

I agree...SM57's seem to be the way to go. Would it be better though to close mic or just go peripheral? I've heard pros and cons both ways...which would be better as far as, let's say, a jam band coming in to record and lay down some tracks for a demo?

How many mics/channels/tracks do you have for the drums? What's the room like and what other instruments/vocals are there?

We're in the process of setting up our new audio studio right now (a downtown studio closed down and we were able to acquire all of their equipment). We have a Sony MXP-3000 with 36 channels, and a Sonic Solutions editing system. The room is a Blackbox room, mostly concrete but enclosed completely. For mics...the Shure kit, AKG414's, BG4.1's, SM81's, 94's, a KSM44, etc. The band would have set, electric bass, two guitar, and three vocal (as is typical of the requests I've gotten).

:)

Wow! What great gear you have to use! Try out all the pairs of condensors you have as drum overheads and see which you like. It depends on the way the band plays, but you may be able to get away with a pair of overheads in x-y stereo and the KSM44 in fron of the kick. Keep it simple if you can.
Add other mics to capture essential parts, like a 57 on the snare or 81 on the high hat or ride for a particulaly intricate or essential part.

There are camps for both ways...close micing and distant micing. If you have the tracks and mics available, go crazy and mic everything including the room and when mix time comes you can choose what you like to fit the song. Generally, for my work anyway, I close mic everything (inside kick, top/bottom snare, top/sometime bottom toms) with no ride or hh mic and a mono room mic. YMMV

Best Regards,
Nathan Eldred
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.atlaspro…"]atlasproaudio.com[/]="http://www.atlaspro…"]atlasproaudio.com[/]

Here's something that I've been playing around with. Only 5 mics on the set...

Use dynamic mics on the Kick and Snare (421, 57, whatever's clever), then put a 414 in front of the kit about two feet out pointed between the toms, then try another condenser (I have had success with the AT4033) behind and over the left shoulder of the drummer and then another behind and over the drummer's right shoulder.

This setup has taught me very simply that 'less is more'. The drum sounds I'm getting this way are sometimes very wide and more colorfull than if I was close-micing every piece.

Hopefully, your room sounds good and has some nice reflections. I would like to know if anyone else out there has been trying stuff like this and what the results of your labors have been. Thanks and good luck, 'Rbakken'!

Kevin Bruchert
Producer / Engineer
Starfields Productions

I've heard as well that "less is more" seems to work for most people, but then I guess you're giving up your options, right? A friend of mine swears by just using some overheads and a kick, but I personally think there should be more than that. My only worry ever is not doing enough, and then the artist or group wanting more than what I've got down...

Rich Bakken
WLCStudios
Wisconsin Lutheran College
Milwaukee, WI
414-443-8979

Well, if you have the recording tracks available use them. When mixdown time comes you can pick & choose what sounds best.

Ok...so maybe my next question would be are there any specific mics that I should be using? I'd love to get a nice cabinet started, and I think I'm on my way, but am I missing something that I really should have?
My earlier post before:
For mics...the Shure kit, AKG414's, BG4.1's, SM81's, 94's, a KSM44, etc.

Howdy,
I generally prefer the less is more approach: 421 ('M' setting) on kick, a pair of SM 81's (flat setting) for overheads, and an SM57 or SM 98 for snare. Gate the snare and kick, and there you have it.
UNLESS the sound requires some "in your face" toms. Then you break out more 57's, 421's, EV308's, whatever you like, with more gates.
The trap to watch for when micing everything, "just 'cause I have the tracks," is that, at least in my case, I would have the roll-off engaged on my overheads when I mic the toms separately. If I end up not using the tom tracks, then the overheads are too bright.

Originally posted by Rbakken:
I'd love to get a nice cabinet started, and I think I'm on my way, but am I missing something that I really should have?

You don't have a Coles 4038. They sound marvelous as OHs or room mics. It's a good thing to have around because you aren't always going to want that hyped-topend condenser sound on ALL your OH/Room sounds. When you want blunt and dark, or natural... they the man.

-s

Hi,

Mics you don't have and would be a proud owner of:

Sennheiser 421s - get a ton, they sound great on amps, drums, vocals, and instruments

Royer ribbon mic - sounds great on everything

Neumann - save up and buy something really nice for vocals.

Ken

I also do quite a bit of Vocal group recordings (i.e. College choir, smaller 24 voice chamber group, several sextets, etc.) For recording the smaller groups I've always done a half circle with a set of four mics. Should I be using those, or a decent PZM to get the nice, close sound that people enjoy hearing out of vocal groups?

Rich,
You've got some good mics (and even better clients). Just try the mics on different sources. I'm constantly trying different mics on different sources. This will help you get to know the tools. If you have a great drummer with a great sounding set, try minimal micing. If you hate it, scrap it and move on. There are a million ways to make a record, try them all.

And don't forget to have fun!!! :D

When you record drums, do you generally try to isolate them (separate iso room) or does it work to have them in the same room as the rest of the band (bass, guitar, etc.)?

Hello,

In response to drum isolation, it can work either way; drums bleeding into instrument mics can kill a great session as well. Using baffles can help eliminate bad bleed, but can also alienate players if set-up too constricting. I have had great sucess with using a quality DI on a bass (JDI - DI with a Jensen Tranny) as well as the guitars, and have them rock on phone mixes all in the same room. This eliminates any instrument bleed in the drum mics, and visa versa. If you have more than one room, disregard all, and make it happen creatively. Always check bleed by soloing up channels ,and see if it's a good thing. The Ramones recorded a lot of their stuff with PA's blaring, and bleed everywhere - experiment and you will be rewarded.
PS - one of my new favourite techniques for tracking drums is a 5 mic set-up: XY overheads with AKG 451E's or 460's, CAD E-100 on kick (or Senn. 421) 57 on snare, and a good room mic - 414 will work OK, but a Soundelux U-99 or Neumann U87/67 what have you. It's to die for! take the room mic and spank it pretty hard with compression, and it rocks! I haven't used the snare mic in a mix for the last 3 projects, but having a consistent drummer is the key!

Best of luck,

PlugHead

Originally posted by ken:
Hi,

Ken

Owning Neumann mics can get you business. I prefer Soundelux to most ratty old Neumann mics so shoot me. Royer 121's don't sound good on everything. Have you ever tried one on acoustic guitar? No mic sounds good on everything but some have a higher hit to miss ratio.
It's funny I went back and tried to get a good sound with 2 4033s, a 57 and a D12 a few weeks ago and damn if it didn't come real close to what we're getting with our mics back from the shop. It's not the same but I'd rather have Bud O'brian record my band with those mics than most people with all the greatest shit on earth.

Hello, I'm kinda new on the recording area, but I just recorded my band last week (I'm the drummer) on a great room, with a SSL and a AD8000 going into PT LE... ok, sounds weird... SSL and PT LE... LOL but that's what I had avaliable... I used 2 421's on the tom/floor tom, 57 on the snare, RE 20 on the kick, 451 on the hi hat and U87's (spaced pair) on the overs... I couldn't pay much attention on the mic placement and on the levels to PT 'cause I was on the room sound checking the drums and a friend was on the board... but after listening to the recording... I can say that a great drummer is a must... that's why I'm not satisfied with my sounds :)
With my small experience, I have something to say, let's see how many of you guys will agree with me:
drummer 50%, mic placement 25%, gear 15% and room 10% for a good sound! :roll:

Originally posted by jeronimo:
drummer 50%, mic placement 25%, gear 15% and room 10% for a good sound!

I would put more like 80-90% on the drummer/musicians. The better they are, the easier everything else becomes. So maybe the percentages aren't even static, changing with each factor present during the tracking. I dunno.

Rich,

Whether you are recording drums, voices, or a parade of elephants, one thing that can cut down on option paralysis is to decide whether or not you like the sound of your subject in your room. If the room sound floats yer boat, great -- try to capture it. (Here, less is definitely more.) If you have problems with the sound of your room, then close micing or iso might be your way. You may find that you get more milage out of some room treatment bucks than microphone bucks. (I know, I know... it's not as much fun. But a really great mic sometimes just makes a really accurate representation of an ugly sound.)

You have some pretty good tools to work with. Maybe a little experimentation will suggest the techniques or equipment required to produce the sound you want. The only right microphone is the one that gets the sound you're looking for.

my$.02

ian rushant

Sounds like you have a very nice mic collection. Work with those awhile and learn their strengths/weaknesses. Try them on different sources with different pre’s… which I didn’t see you mention… or did I just miss it? I’m fond of TL Audio and Great River, but there are as many choices as there are dirty politicians.

When you get ready for another mic buying spree (we all get it in our system before long), I suggest you get another KSM 44 to have a stereo pair. They really shine on overhead applications. I also find the 421 and RE-20 very versatile. My all time fave is the TLM-103… once again, a sea of choices

Thanks for all of your help...I'm actually gotten some pretty good results. I haven't gotten a good sound on the bass yet...how close do I need to get?

My studio usually caters for heavy rock and punk bands, so drum sounds have to be big for us.

Overheads - The first mikes you listen to when setting up. Get 65% of your drum sound here. This is make or break time for drum soundchecking. I use Neumann KM85's usually in a spaced pair. The standard is KM84's, but I find I usually roll off some bottom end from the OH anyway (because I like to close mike everything else), and the 85's have that built in, which is probably more phase coherent. USE A NICE PREAMP - I use API 312, staright to tape.

Kick - Beyer M88 just inside the shell, API 312 preamp straight to tape. Avoid compression if possible, if not then something clean. If you need more beef from the kick (as opposed to that modern "snappy" sound) then a large diaphram condenser, I usually just use a Rode NT1, about 3 - 5 feet out from the kick, TAKE MUCH CARE checking for phase coherency - into a dark sounding pre, I use ART tube. Straight to tape. Blend during mix.

Snare - SM57, :roll: I sometimes get tired of pulling it out but nothin beats it. If anyone has a suggestion for a better mike, I'd like to hear it (providing you have done the hard yards with a 57). Maybe I should save for a Beta 57, just for a bit more crispness... into an API 312 pre again, straight to tape. Use mike placement as your EQ during tracking - your mix will thank you for it.

Rack Toms - Here is a new one - Shure SM99. Yep, those bendy lecturn mikes. They are punchy as hell on rack toms, not quite big enough for floor toms but they have a really small profile, so your drummer wont be intimidated by a huge expensive mike on every tom. They usually comment on how much easier it makes playing. API, into a drawmer freq selective gate. Some may disagree but I dont like my tom mike to be open when the toms aren't hit.

Floor Tom - MD421 is pretty hard to beat, especially going through a nice transient preamp. I have gotten equally good results from my NT1, and a 57 will do in a pinch. If you get good sounds in your overheads, then it's much easier to get a thumping floor tom sound, whatever mike. Gate to tape.

Room Mikes: I find that I use room mike in the mix less and less, maybe I need to tweak the acoustics of my live room a bit. I do have some brick walls which may be why I dont like my room mike sound too much. In a nice room, these mike can add so much character to a drum sound - if you can use a pair of Neumann large diaphrams, like M149's, and slam em with a good compressor like a distressor. Want beef? Get good room and room mikes. I have gotten some cool results with those Radio Shack PZM's, and 421's are good as well.

There are a few more very important factors in drum sounds to be noted:

1. PHASE - especially when multimiking everything. Setup your overheads first, and make sure every mike you bring up thereafter is in phase with the o/heads.

2. THE KIT - I can't believe no-one has mentioned that the actual drum kit should be in good shape! Sure, we can get a cool sound from a fucked kit, but at the end of the day the client wants to sound like Pantera / Limp Bizkit / latest drum sound goes here.... Tuning is a skill that is invaluable to an engineer who tracks drums, I am still learning - when you have a kit tuned properly mike selection becomes so much less critical. Maple shell drums sound much different to steel shells, and different sizes of kick drums will make 1000 times more difference than different kinds of microphones. I guess the keyword here is PREPRODUCTION.

3. THE ROOM - it plays a huge part in drum sounds. Experiment with different placements of the kit around your live room (find the spot where the floor tom has the most bottom end), try putting up curtains, or laying down some big sheets of MDF board to set the drums up on.

4. PREAMPS - I would rather have all Radio Shack mikes and Class A preamps (and an analog recording medium for that matter), than Neumann this and Royer that and just a Mackie board. Yep, they make that much of a difference, especially with very transient material like drums. And get a 2 inch Studer, if not, make sure your at 24 bit at least.

Dont get me wrong, I agree with the comments about the player being the most critical aspect, but I thought these points should be addressed.

RBak,

Now might be a good time to consider starting a new Topic, as we have drifted away from Drum Miking and are now into Bass Miking.

But anyway...

I assume you're talkin about proximity of the mic to the bass amp? There are a lot of variables to consider when getting your bass sound. First of which (like to drums, and in fact, all sources) is getting it to sound as good as you can in a room. (Or outside, in the ruins of an acient greek temple - if you have ridiculous amounts of money to blow on such endeavors.) Bass is particularly space sensetive. As the pitch of the notes get lower, the waveform gets longer. Whenever you are in a room shorter than the wavelengths of the notes being played, the reflections off the walls will phase with the signal coming out of the amp. This will cause pitch-specific level fluctuations, among other "problems". (Hey, maybe you like your bass to sound exactly like it was played in a small room. There's no right or wrong to this, just what does or doesn't please you, the listener.)

When faced with a small room as the only option, the 2 most popular ways of eliminating the accompanying problems are:
a. Go direct. (Ho hum. No fun.)
b. Close mic the amp, preferrably with a directional mic such as cardioid.

Now, there are trade offs when you close mic the bass amp.

The first issue is proximity, or the unnatural low frequency "bump" that comes from placing a directional mic very close to the sound source. This can be eq'd out to an extent, but it's very difficult to get it to sound "natural". You could use an omni pattern mic, which is more immune to the proximity effect than directional mics. But the less directional the mic the more room will be picked up, along with the phase you were trying to eliminate to begin with.

The next issue deals with the perceived size of the source. This may not be a very scientific explaination, but it's the one that works for me... here goes. When you mic a speaker cone, you get a recording of bass the size of the amount of cone that is mic'd. So if you start with a 10" cone, and have the mic 2" away from it, with the mic picking up a width of 90 degrees, the mic is "seeing" approximately 2.75" of cone moving back and forth. You will then perceive a bass rig in the mix that is 2.75" tall in your mix. Not very impressive, eh? You then proceed to stand on your head and other tricks to try and make it sound like something big. But it's hard to compete with a track that sounds like a three-way with dual 15"s.

How close should you put the mic? Only as close as it needs to go.

Sorry...wanted to clarify that when I wrote "bass" I meant "kick" on the set...sorry for the confusion...must have been a late night typing.

DOH!

Originally posted by Adam B - Smokin & Jokin:
Snare - SM57, :roll: I sometimes get tired of pulling it out but nothin beats it. If anyone has a suggestion for a better mike, I'd like to hear it (providing you have done the hard yards with a 57).

Many say the Beyer m201 is a great alternative.

Regards,

Graham

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adam B - Smokin & Jokin:

Snare - SM57, :roll: I sometimes get tired of pulling it out but nothin beats it. If anyone has a suggestion for a better mike, I'd like to hear it (providing you have done the hard yards with a 57).

I've used a Beyer 420 (NOT 422) with great results for rock bands (hyper pattern helps thin out HH bleed)... I've also been happy with a a Beta 57. YMMV.

Use mike placement as your EQ during tracking - your mix will thank you for it.

No argument here.