How fun is all I can say. I am so sick of looking at a screen for everything and using a mouse. My arm is starting to have a chronic ache, and I know its all from a mouse. I'm hybrid now and love it but would do a console too, if it was the right one. But hybrid summing amps don't hold you to one sonic footprint. Your outboard gear is where the magic all happens. It appears you aren't the only one heading this way though, so right on I say! It makes me smile.

I think it comes down to if you like the sound of the Toft and then staying within the limits, keeping headroom always at its sweetspot and using the tricks to capture great sounding music at the end of the day.

We all agree that if you are mixing OTB, save your work on a second recorder to avoid SRC. Thats the best advise I can offer . I don't own a Toft but have read they are liked and have a good routing system. But they break up if you push them.

Here's a thread we have going right now ( http://recording.org/hybrid-recording-forums/53286-moving-towards-hybrid-setup-summing-mixer.html ) , check it out, it might give you a bit more to think about. In the mean time, looking forward to reading other comments here!

With the right DAW software the 8 [="http://www.daking.com/"]Daking[/]="http://www.daking.c…"]Daking[/] Mic Pre's , 8 [[url=http://="http://www.vintech-…"]Vintech[/]="http://www.vintech-…"]Vintech[/] Mic Pre's and an [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.apogeedi…"]Apogee[/]="http://www.apogeedi…"]Apogee[/] Symphony system is going to be pretty hard to beat. You can add an SPL / Neos http://recording.org/content/704-spl-neos.html summing mixer and you have pretty nice rig that will go the distance. SSL has some cool summing networks like the X Desk and X-Panda.

Be My Girl(Original) by Mr. Sunlight(Robert Biehn) - YouTube

Do you really need 16 to 24 channels of EQ all at the same time and if you do then do you really want them all to be of the same type?

Even if you do buy a console unless it's a Neve or an API you're going to most likely want those some different pres and decent conversion anyway.

Screw all that other nonsense. Get yourself an API lunchbox, the big one. Then you can have à la carte, everything. Neve, API, Trident, Jensen, Harrison, Millennia, should I keep going? But if all that you have is a rack full of Neve and API, I could live with that.

That's actually who I live with. LOL.
Mx. Remy Ann David

I think he wants to put his hands on faders and less mouse.?? I can't blame him either. But sound wise, I think all our suggestions will give you the most sonic flavours and probably the best S/N while retaining or taking advantage of all the benefits of DAW editing , automation " etc" ... that comes along with ITB.

Thank you all for your great input, I think ill just take a little bit of everyones advice and get high quality outboard preamps, conversion, and then later on get a summing mixer.
Too bad Api lunch box's are so expensive, I really like the idea of having a box of 10 different pre's or a good mix.
I actually don't understand why it's not more cost effective than is, considering you could get a Vintech 473 for $2900 but just 4 modules would be $2800.00 plus you would have to get a Lunchbox, and then another $800 on top of that. To me it makes all the sense in the world to just get companies 4 preamp units, specially cause if it's a preamp you like using, why not have at least 4 of them??

Its a beautiful thing, building a system with all this colour and headroom that is!

Radial makes the Lunchbox. Look around. affordable 500 modules do pop up once in a while.

RemyRAD, post: 393545 wrote: But if all that you have is a rack full of Neve and API, I could live with that.

I could live with that too..

audiokid, post: 393547 wrote: I think he wants to put his hands on faders and less mouse.?? I can't blame him either. But sound wise, I think all our suggestions will give you the most sonic flavours and probably the best S/N while retaining or taking advantage of all the benefits of DAW editing , automation " etc" ... that comes along with ITB.

audiokid, you get what I'm saying. I definitely what to get my hands on the faders and less mouse in the near future.
One of my main concerns is Analog Eq, Compression, Gating vs the Plug-In counterparts, to me it makes all the sense in the world that a high end Analog Eq would sound better than a plug in that's just changing numbers.

audiokid, post: 393554 wrote: Its a beautiful thing, building a system with all this colour and headroom that is!

Yes, I'm way too anxious about getting this rig ordered. audiokid, how do you like your Warm Audio WA12, thinking about getting one, or two?

ChrisH, post: 393580 wrote: I could live with that too..

audiokid, you get what I'm saying. I definitely what to get my hands on the faders and less mouse in the near future.
One of my main concerns is Analog Eq, Compression, Gating vs the Plug-In counterparts, to me it makes all the sense in the world that a high end Analog Eq would sound better than a plug in that's just changing numbers.

Yes, I'm way too anxious about getting this rig ordered. audiokid, how do you like your Warm Audio WA12, thinking about getting one, or two?

Okay, why I like hybrid and not so big on a console is a big topic but here's the skinny on my opinion.

An analog console to me is a dated concept, noisy, power thirsty and designed for yesteryear. But this opinion is directed towards the $50,000 and under console. I would love to have an older Neve or API in mint condition.
A Hybrid summing amp however, like the MixDream I use is designed for the DAW and has all the stuff you do and need. Big headroom and close routing possibilities with simple on/off bypass for inserts are pretty much it. Its the closest thing to a straight line for analog. When its cranked wide open, I can hardly tell its on.
The hands on faders and knobs is something we long for big time. So, the day a controller becomes available for my DAW of choice, (which happens to be Sequoia right now) that is affordable, I will be on that indeed. I want digital control. I love it. But know the secret to sonic colour and personality ( to name a few reasons) is in copper and energy. You don't need much of it to make a difference either. But I personally think you need to go about hybrid right or don't bother.

Most of all your needs are in a DAW. And that is the sound of the radio. Do you like it?

The EQ's, compressors, effects, mastering tools "plug-ins" available in my DAW, (Samplitude/Sequoia 12) sound excellent and do things outboard gear doesn't. I love how surgical it all is too.

But, I have and want more specific hardware that the digital stuff doesn't do. Yes, gear does make a difference :)
Hybrid is the ultimate. Best of both worlds. Its brilliant. And I totally believe combining the two worlds makes a better sound, that you can hear and mix faster and it is more fun.
I got into this business because I like having fun. Mixing ITB was cool 13 years ago and now its just a computer program that allows you to dissect things. To me, all the editing we are hearing is way over done and IMHO, a dated sound we will one day be ashamed of.
The marvel has long worn off. I don't miss tape. But Analog hardware, well, thats like nuclear power that makes it all glow.

So, don't give up on the DAW but don't let anyone tell you hardware and OTB mixing is going away. Its the path less traveled. The more I know about it, the less I actually feel like talking about it.

Re Warm Audio, I'm so slammed lately, I've not had a chance to even plug it in. But I plan on it soon. I'll let you know.

Check this out: I highly recommend this for everyone remotely interested in mixing otb.

[="http://www.puremix.net/video/mixing/pop/hybrid-digital-analog-mixing.html?affid=53M0N3X8QL"]Hybrid Digital/Analog Mixing - PUREMIX[/]="http://www.puremix…"]Hybrid Digital/Analog Mixing - PUREMIX[/]

Duration: 1:27:05
In this one hour and twenty seven point three minutes extravaganza Fab mixes a new track from Indie Pop band [URL=http://www.facebook… Days.
Starting from scratch and explaining every step he takes and every choice he makes (Every breath he takes, every move he makes, oh can’t you seeeeeee....), he coaxes the track from rough mix to final mix using hardware eqs and compressors, many different plugins, analog summing, and a great array of tricks to make the song shine. Instruments dealt with range from vocals to bass, drums, guitars and keyboards (Oolala).

Hardware used : Dangerous 2-Bus, Roger Schult EQs, RockRuepel Comp1, ELI Fatso, Chandler TG1, Mercury Pultec EQH1, Dangerous BAX EQ

Software used : ProTools HD9, Oxford EQ, Oxford Dynamics, Oxford Reverb, UAD Room Simulator, UAD EMT140, UAD Pultec, UAD 1176, UAD Fairchild, UAD Little Labs, UAD Precision EQ, Soundtoys Echoboy, Soundtoys PhaseMistress, Softube Reverb, Avid Expander Gate

The attached zip file contains the original uncompressed files of the session.
Please download it and import these files in the DAW you use to make music (It does not necessarily have to be Pro Tools!) This way you can practice your skills and mix this song using your own tastes, tools, plug-ins and the guidelines provided in this video.

audiokid, post: 393583 wrote:
But know the secret to sonic colour and personality (to name a few reasons) is in copper and energy. You don't need much of it to make a difference either.
Analog hardware, well, thats like nuclear power that makes it all glow.

So a couple Eq's and Compressors will do the trick?

audiokid, post: 393583 wrote:
Most of all your needs are in a DAW. And that is the sound of the radio. Do you like it?

Yeah I do, I think that engineering has greatly improved in the last couple decades, theres albums that were recorded before 1970 that I wish so bad had been produced somehow with more modern techniques so the album were more
sonically enjoyable. Good music is still good music though.

Let me put it this way:

Summing stems OTB makes sense to me so, I searched for the best summing amp I could find that gave me the most headroom with the options to insert gear and hard bypass each channel with the straightest line possible.

When mixing ITB I group tracks with similar transients together and send them OTB as stereo tracks to a 16 channel summing amp ( 8 channels in stereo). I avoid the 2-bus in the DAW at this stage of the mix.

The DA Stem have their own channel outputs = Drums (1/2), Percussion (3/4), Bass(5/6), Keyboards (7/8), Guitars(9/10), Vocals(11/12), Effects (13/14) and so on depending how many DA channels you have available.

On each of those stems I have specific gear inserted into the MixDream (summing amp) that I find best suited for those channels. Certain gear works better for specific transients or applications like an LA-2A for vocals and Bass, Transient Designer for drums, STC-8 for master bus etc. Again, choose gear that seems to suit those stems. The hybrid world opens you up to energy. So I find gear with vibe is the better investment and leave the plugins for the boring detail and such.

As I can afford it, I add more pieces like comps, eq's effects. Hardware is not like plug-ins where you can have many instances of one analog EQ. You put those expensive analog gems on the stems or master bus during your summing stage. They could go on the master bus or on individual channels as described above.

If I was starting out, I would study long and hard and choose the most important products one at a time and go from there.

How do you know what is the most important? Well, its all based on the music you are doing , how many stems you are working with and possibly even the DAW plug-ins you have . Do they sound great and work for you? There are other reasons too but this is how I do it and the basics to hybrid summing. 90 % of all the plug-ins available to me work for the basic mix. The last 10% is done OTB using high quality products targeted for specific transients and flavour.

Mixing stems OTB, bypassing the DAW 2-bus and using the analog headroom to play with gain and colour is where the magic happens.
As I develop my hybrid chops, I learn what I need and save my pennies for more stuff for those stems.

Starting out, an analog EQ like the Hammer and comp like the Nail at the end of the chain right before you go back to the DAW is a great start. I name those because I like them but I have others and want others too. As I develop my skills I have found what I like and what I need. The SPL Transient Designer is a must for drums. The BAX EQ is wonderful for a master EQ. An API 5500 is wonderful for drums and guitars or even the 2-bus depending on the song. An STC-8 is a wonderful mastering compressor perfect at the end of the chain. You don't hear it but it works. Its awesome for acoustic music.
The Passeq is glorious for M/S processing that I insert in the Dangerous Master section. Its a killer mastering EQ that works awesome with the BAX EQ.
The Hammer is crazy as a master EQ or great on anything :An LA 2A is stellar on vocal stems both for tracking and mixing. The list goes on.

Yikes, lots of typing.... :)

Making sense?

Rather than buying a console, I do it like this, one piece at a time. smoke :

Best advice: Save your cash and buy a house. But if you are like me, without the dream, a house will never make me happy.

Attached files

Without having one, I would imagine and think that the WARM API style microphone preamp. Probably comes very close to an API microphone preamp. Many of these discrete transistor circuits are all based on similar operational amplifier electronics topology. Transistors still deliver what IC chips can't. It doesn't matter if there is 100 transistors in an IC chip. It's better when you only have five transistors. Because every time audio goes through a semi conducting transistor Junction, it adds its own distortion components. So the less the better. Most audio circuits, strive for a " straight wire ", like sound. Which simply means less sounds better than more. And, for example, balanced inputs and outputs that are transformer less, require extra circuitry. An unbalanced circuit has less circuitry and therefore can actually sound better than a like piece of balanced equipment can. But only in the short-haul of cabling and not the long haul of cabling, where balancing and balanced circuitry is necessary. Anything that's going to go more than 15 feet should be balanced circuitry. Since all operational amplifier circuitry is a low impedance output, one can shove it down. 1000 feet of cable, but only if it is balanced so as to prevent RFI and spurious electromagnetic hum. We're a balanced circuit is certainly required. Otherwise, we utilized transformer inputs and outputs that present their own distortion components, which a lot of us like. Transformers impose a certain mush quality to take the edge off of digital sound. And good Transformers sound good, where bad Transformers, just sound, like bad Transformers. Which can also be good in the land of digital. Because without the transformer, you have a baby without diapers pooping all over your sound. LOL. And you need to wrap baby with the proper transformer. LOL. To keep it warm with all of the wires and solidly in place with the core. And that's how you keep your baby from pooping on your mix.

I like a little baby poop once in a while.
Mx. Remy Ann David

audiokid, thank you, I get what you're saying, $35 for that video is kinda pricy but I'll watch it anyway.
One thing I don't understand is "Summing" since I've never used outboard gear, are you talking about if you had 8 drum tracks sounding the way you wanted, you would then sum it down to 2 tracks and run it out threw your outboard gear?

Hahaha, thank you remy, very informative.

ChrisH, post: 393617 wrote: audiokid, thank you, I get what you're saying, $35 for that video is kinda pricy but I'll watch it anyway.
One thing I don't understand is "Summing" since I've never used outboard gear, are you talking about if you had 8 drum tracks sounding the way you wanted, you would then sum it down to 2 tracks and run it out threw your outboard gear?

Hahaha, thank you remy, very informative.

yes.

8 drum tracks sent (still ITB) to their own submix (group) which is then sent otb now called a stem to the summing amp. Now you got it! And there I may use an analog EQ, compressor, "transient designer" etc instead of doing it ITB with plug-ins.

Do you guys still sum all the different groups down to two tracks each for the final stages of mixing, even when mixing all itb?

For me. yes, always.

explained more:

when setting up a DAW session I create audio and midi tracks, aux's and bus's . Aux for effects, bus's for groups. I group all the drums, bass, guitars, keys, vocals, percussion, effects etc, together on their own bus's and send them either to the master bus ITB or bypass the master bus (2-bus) all together and go OTB to the analog summing amp.

Grouping tracks is a good thing. (Grouping tracks together that share similar transients is a good thing)

Study up on aux's, bus's and grouping tracks. thumb

Another reason why DAW's rock over consoles are no cross talk, bleeding between channels. Console and analog tape = the more channels we created, the more added noise and crosstalk. What a nightmare. Hence, why a ( just to pull a number) 50 grand console is not comparable to a well designed hybrid DAW system.
But, as Boswell points out, he gets great results using parts of the console in a hybrid application.

To add some more now.

Why almost all people that try OTB summing with a console quit and stand firm that OTB summing is not worth it. That ITB sounds better.

They use a console like inserts ( DA, AD, DA, AD). They are sending individual channels I/O , back and forth to a console.
This is a bad thing. I would never do that.

How does grouping to bus's Benifit? Also, where can I read up on this?

That video explains everything you need to know. Its expensive but not in the big picture.

But, to put it simply, trying to manage 8 tracks of drums in a final mix makes more sense to subgroup those down into two tracks. There are also other reasons that involve plug-in management (less CPU), glue factors, automation, transient management and even OTB sub mixing / summing. I could go on on this subject quit a bit. Maybe others here want to chime in?

audiokid, post: 393633 wrote: That video explains everything you need to know. Its expensive but not in the big picture.

But, to put it simply, trying to manage 8 tracks of drums in a final mix makes more sense to subgroup those down into two tracks. There are also other reasons that involve plug-in management (less CPU), glue factors, automation, transient management and even OTB sub mixing / summing. I could go on on this subject quit a bit. Maybe others here want to chime in?

Okay, thank you.
Glue factor? I assume you mean how well the tracks mesh together?

audiokid, post: 393628 wrote:
Grouping tracks together that share similar transients is a good thing

So drums would be one bus, guitars would be another, keys, bass, and so on, right?
Sorry for the beginner questions on this..

I think mixing with stems isn't really a necessary thing to do. It's necessary when it's asked of you to deliver that way. I'm delivering stems for a documentary film for Discovery Networks. They want the dialogue separate from the background music separate from the sound effects. This is so they can overdubbed into a foreign language, while keeping the rest of the soundtrack of this musical documentary intact. And it has no sound effects, so I don't have to worry about that.

One could however think of stems. When we used to use early automated consoles that allowed for multiple fader subgrouping to be controlled from specified master faders. So it was great to have your entire drum set, mix on a separate fader. Vocals on another fader. Guitars and keyboards on a couple of other faders. But I still had the ability to tweak each individual fader, even if it was part of a subgroup.

Stem mixing today really follows that old VCA concept without the ability to tweak. Which in some cases can be good and in others not so good. It also follows that mindset/workflow, for those that want to glean some kind of analog summing glue to the mix. And since most summing boxes have a limited amount of faders, your options are just slightly leaner, which, I guess, is why four pairs is usually most likely enacted upon. While my former Sphere console offered VCA subgrouping, my even older, all manual, Neve only offers four subgroup buses. Which still gives me the ability to produce three pairs of stems, which would typically be dialogue, music and effects, or a stereo drum mix, stereo vocals and stereo guitars and keyboards. But I'm really restricted to that on the old Neve. Of course it's a 2000 pound summing box/mixer and probably wouldn't fit on a dining room table? But I rarely work with subgroups unless I find it necessary to do. I'd rather have all 24-40 faders to deal with all of the same time, in spite of the fact I only have 10 fingers still.

So to review... if you have an analog console with a decent sound and summing network, you don't necessarily need a external summing box. Though some summing boxes such as the AMS/Neve, Dangerous and others, work well in lieu of a decent analog console.

You know folks... it's really quite easy to build a passive summing mixer, with a nice pair of API 2520 modules on Radio Shaft breadboards or a Neve 3415 pair, John Hardy/Dean Jansen couple of 990 modules, etc., for just a couple of hundred dollars. Then you could also include some used Penny and Giles, API, Alps, Duncan, faders of the straight linear variety found on real consoles. And you get those used pretty cheap today. This can be an excellent and simple DIY project. And then you also get that fabulous vintage flavor reminiscent of the actual consoles. Even outboard microphone preamps can be utilized as the active combining network and the output drive. Since any active + 4Db output can go into a couple of simple volume controls, to a couple of series resistors right into the DI input of most outboard boutique microphone preamps and voilà! World-class sounding simple passive summing mixer box. This should be a prerequisite DIY project for any aspiring audio engineer. You not only learn something, you end up with a great summing box.

Good consoles count as summing boxes and bad consoles are just bad consoles. You only need 2 summing/drive amplifier, operational amplifier outputs to do this well. Which can be done for not much more than the cost of 2-4 SM57's.

Try it. You'll like it. It's fun. And then you feel all good about yourself.
Mx. Remy Ann David

how many inz 'n outtz? are you going to use aux sends?

kick / bass

whatever works for you. try different approaches.

Fun topic and glad we have some others chiming in again.

=RemyRAD;393644]I think mixing with stems isn't really a necessary thing to do.

Remy, I'm not sure there is a better way to mix OTB. Stems are the most proficient and logical way to sum OTB via all the high end summing amps I know of. Stems are also a very current method to do remixes. In fact, I think mastering engineers are doing more stem mix/mastering than ever before. This is a seriously fun gig if you got the abilities... I definitely don't agree with this statement at all.
How would you set-up and prepare summing OTB?

One could however think of stems. When we used to use early automated consoles that allowed for multiple fader subgrouping to be controlled from specified master faders. So it was great to have your entire drum set, mix on a separate fader. Vocals on another fader. Guitars and keyboards on a couple of other faders. But I still had the ability to tweak each individual fader, even if it was part of a subgroup.

Hybrid summing = no loss in DAW automation for starters. Stereo faders = Stems. These stems are connected to analog gear specific for transient tasks and imaging to put is simple. Grouping tracks with similar sonic characters is a smart way to mix OTB :)
We could send all the individual tracks out on their own channel ( providing we have enough DAC) but still, why?
Mixing a large portion ITB, preserving the sonic excellent to its fullest, utilizing automation and processing gets done ITB, first, then if you got the glue and juice, take those tracks and group them into stems taking it all one step further before you master to the recorder of choice.
It makes absolutely no sense to do all that stuff OTB or any other way, especially through a dated console that creates noise and mud when you can keep your mix's as clean and full range as possible and only use specific analog hardware for unique things to the mix.

Stem mixing today really follows that old VCA concept without the ability to tweak. Which in some cases can be good and in others not so good. It also follows that mindset/workflow, for those that want to glean some kind of analog summing glue to the mix. And since most summing boxes have a limited amount of faders, your options are just slightly leaner, which, I guess, is why four pairs is usually most likely enacted upon. While my former Sphere console offered VCA subgrouping, my even older, all manual, Neve only offers four subgroup buses. Which still gives me the ability to produce three pairs of stems, which would typically be dialogue, music and effects, or a stereo drum mix, stereo vocals and stereo guitars and keyboards. But I'm really restricted to that on the old Neve. Of course it's a 2000 pound summing box/mixer and probably wouldn't fit on a dining room table? But I rarely work with subgroups unless I find it necessary to do. I'd rather have all 24-40 faders to deal with all of the same time, in spite of the fact I only have 10 fingers still.

So to review... if you have an analog console with a decent sound and summing network, you don't necessarily need a external summing box. Though some summing boxes such as the AMS/Neve, Dangerous and others, work well in lieu of a decent analog console.

Again, comparing a console to a pro hybrid summing amp (no offense, including some some home made box), I'll take the professional summing amp and a DAW and stem mix that song any day over trying to do faux it with a console. I know a lot of people like to think their console will be as accurate, proficient and better, but this isn't so. The console may produce a rich sound but it won't produce the same sound you get from the close relationship between a summing amp, awesome hardware and the DAW connected as close together as possible. howdy
Even the monitoring system part of any console is coloured and inferior compared to a hybrid monitoring system.
If we are talking DAW and OTB summing > stems and gear "designed to flow with a glow" is the way to go. That's music to the ears.

Chris I'm really surprised that you feel that way? The professional summing box is not an improvement upon a API or Neve summing console. It's simply there for the folks that can't have one of those. I see no need to create stems for mixing 24 tracks or more. When done correctly, everything is perfectly wonderful. When people can't get their damned levels straight, it might be a useful crutch? When and if I need to, I can create a stereo bus mix of the drums bringing those up on another pair of faders that feed the two track stereo mix bus. Coloration? You bet! I want that coloration. That coloration is a difference between Michelangelo and Robert Crumb. Both great and highly specialized artists that were very different from one another. One worked in oil-based color and the other worked with pen and ink. So if you don't like color, pen and ink would be your choice. If you like color it's Transformers and transistors and as many as you can put in the signal chain. And both are the right answer. Transparency, no coloration, neutral. What the heck does that all mean other than nothing? I want something that sounds like nothing is what it says. I don't want something that sounds like nothing. I mean how many people are out there driving generic automobiles? A white car with four black tires, no radio, no power, completely clean, transparent, clear. That doesn't sound like any fun? My audio is fun, sounding. And that comes from as much coloration as I can build into my sound. So don't confuse quality with transparency. Transparency is simply the emperors clothes. And that's not legal in public. It shouldn't be legal in your recordings, either. If you want clean transparent neutral, everybody should be utilizing B & K, scientific reference calibration microphones, and only those. And what do you get then? You get clean clear transparent sheet metal. Or I guess what they used in Star Trek known as " transparent aluminum "? Which really does not have a very "s e x y" connotation to that. That's why we also utilize such a broad spectrum of different microphone technologies. Coloration of any musical instrument is the key to its sound, and to the voice. And that's why they stuck varnish on violins. An uncolored violin would have no varnish. So your technical and clinical thought process is being clouded in transparency. And that does not make for great sounding recordings. Just technically and clinically accurate recordings. But this is an art not a science. It is art combined with science, not science, combined with art. So do the universities teach the art of recording and sciences, or do they teach the art of science and recordings? The analogy to that scenario could be trying to unzip your fly, to take a poop? And that can make for disastrous results. That's like trying to get a 50 DB bomb through a 10 DB hole, LOL. Talk about overload... underpants have only so much headroom.

Yeah, I'd rather have a summing box, than just summing digitally. Stereo faders? Sure. Two faders with a plastic tab between them, is also a stereo fader. And no problem. And the summing network inside one of those consoles is the identical summing network, you would get from a standalone summing box with similar internal circuitry. So when done on a fine console, you're golden. When done on a Mackie, it sounds like a Mackie. So gain staging is extremely important. And most folks just don't seem to get that right very often? So they can't screw up quite as bad with a summing box. Since there are no other amplification stages that need to be properly gained and matched. It simply eliminates a source of errors for folks who are not as accomplished as they want to be.

Of course, it may also be something of a necessity, when you are basically working ITB? Especially without a quality console to do your summing with. Having 30+ faders up on the console for a 24 track mix is not uncommon for me. My fingers go exactly where they need to go when I need them to go. And it's called riding a mix. You know? The way all of our favorite rock 'n roll hits were done and are still done today. That was certainly evident to me from the studios I visited in Nashville, Tennessee this past summer. Most of the mixing is still done on high-end analog consoles without the use of external summing boxes. And with that you have no worries. It's all pristine and perfect with all of the horrible coloration. So don't be confused by technique and types of equipment in use. Summing boxes are fine for the average home virtual ITB studio to substitute for a Neve, API or Trident, etc..

If everything was supposed to be clean and bright and crispy, transparent, etc., we would be utilizing metal cone speakers for everything. We would be utilizing only Class D, power amplifiers for our speakers. And we would be utilizing 1:100 microphone Transformers and no active circuitry. And that's because a transformer provides clean passive gain. Active circuitry can only provide distortion.

And if we really wanted to be green? We would go back to acoustic recording. Who took my crank? How am I suppose to record anything now, if I can't wind up my record cutter? Where are my gerbils when I need them?

They work for peanuts and other seeds.
Mx. Remy Ann David

I agree but we are talking about two different things here. If you are using a summing box, stems are the way to go.

If I was running a tracking studio, a console would be a great way to go. They are especially logical because the work for all the engineers coming into the studio.

But if we are talking about a music system centered around a DAW, electronic music production a console is not the ticket. It would not serve you as well as a hybrid summing system.

I think we are confusing many areas here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RemyRAD, post: 393666 wrote: Chris I'm really surprised that you feel that way?

Sorry Remy, not sure what you mean by that?

RemyRAD, post: 393666 wrote: So your technical and clinical thought process is being clouded in transparency.

I didn't say I was worried about transparency? I like the color that high end analog circuitry can provide, and I want it.

RemyRAD, post: 393666 wrote: Summing boxes are fine for the average home virtual ITB studio to substitute for a Neve, API or Trident, etc..

Right, but I am far away from being able to afford any of those, and from my knowledge, unless you can afford a Neve, Api, or Trident you're better off sticking with high end transistor pre's with an ITB system.

Well, perhaps I am confused? Stereo stems? Sure, why not. But when you think of a home DAW -based system, where perhaps one had 24 discrete outputs from their computer audio interface, you'd only be utilizing four pairs of that 24 channel output, to create stereo stems for your analog mixing box/summing box. Which is still just fine, unless of course it was paired with a high quality console where that would not be necessary. So yeah, given a typical consumer oriented. 8 channel outputs from a computer audio interface, yeah, you might want four stereo pairs? Never utilizing the other 16 outputs. And that's cool and I understand that. Because, yeah, you can accomplish things in software, you cannot do in the analog only realm. And for that it does make sense when you want that analog summation. And especially with the flavor that the analog summing box offers. Because they are designed to have the imprint of a API or Neve or a Millennia, Crane Song, Trident, Helios, Harrison, Quad 8, Electro-Dyne, Dean Jensen et al..

Of course a good mixer can absolutely substitute for an analog summing box. It's just a bigger box. It would serve you very well and very versatility, I might add. It has nothing to do with the genre of music being recorded or mixed. A good console is just the Rolls-Royce of summing boxes. And then you have your Porsche's and Cadillacs. Followed by the Fords and Chevys. Which then is followed by the Japanese, Korean and Chinese cars. So I really don't think that we are confusing anything here? What is being confused is to the why's and wherefore's of why one needs analog summation? And if so? How to do it well and with what. So, yeah, having a Dangerous summing box would be less dangerous than trying to do it with a Mackie 1604. Which would then wreak from Mackie. Not something we would all look to as a desirable thing to do for sure. And in that scenario, the Dangerous would have it hands down.

Along with that, most folks cannot afford the high end boutiques stuff. One of the ways to impart some of that sound is through a quality analog summing box. Where it may in fact be designed similarly to a API or Neve summing network and output. And then you get that special sauce on your otherwise hamburger laden recording. Otherwise your product is just meat loaf. (Don't tell him I said that). LOL. With that summing box, you are trying to turn hamburger into filet mignon, and it actually does that. It's like alchemy.

I have a lot of iron that can be turned into gold.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Nicely said Remy,

If you had 24 DA and a 24 channel summing amp then you could output 12 stereo stems. Even better, maybe.

But Yes, you are confused somewhat ( just a wee bit) like most people are with this particular topic coming at it from a tracking POV.
Don't take offense Remy, you know I love you. smoke You don't have it so you can't know it completely. You are also somewhat dated and coming at hybrid all from the past when things were done differently. You are a recording engineer. You aren't a MIDI programmer, sample and DAW geek like I have been for 32 years already. Many recording engineers have never even programmed songs or sampled. That is against the grain.
Some of you guys here are just getting onto Pro Tools and think its the best thing going. Another program that to me is dated. Now I really have to duck.

You are missing the entire reason why its done this way and why using a console is inferior compared to a "professional" summing amp with hard bypass inserts for all tracks including master inserts , mono switching, mass headroom and a tranny if I choose it. I could buy a Neve, but I know it wouldn't work the best for electronic based music that needs only a few real acoustic tracks and vocals summed. We're summing here, not tracking at this point.
That's not home recording, that's Pop culture.

I use samples, VSTi, Keyboards, MIDI gear... , with some acoustic music and this is what the majority are doing the last 20 years. Its what Pop music all about and why so many big studios are dead.
The thing we are missing is how to get that ITB sound to sound more balanced when you add acoustic tracks. Digital and analog needs help to mix the two better so hybrid summing IMO does this really well without sacrificing the kind of bass and separation you get ITB. We don't want our music to sound like a console for god sake. We want it to sound like 2020.

I don't want 24 channels of console every song I mix when I'm doing hybrid music. It would sound too 70's , not digital enough, in a good way ( did I just say that). Now if I was doing the retro thing, well that's another story. So what are we talking about here? Retro or hybrid? Tracking or summing? Pop music or rock music? Hip Hop or Classical?

What I want is separation and control of sound you get ITB. I don't want it to all gel together so my kick sounds like a real kick lost in the mix. Is that a personal mixing weakness or something inherent with dated consoles?
And No, I wouldn't want to use all the channels on a console because it would make everything sound like that. This is why we choose a particular piece of gear for a particular stem. Certain gear sound better for certain stems. A console is too much of one thing. Great for Rock but too dated sounding for pop. What is Pop? The music of today. That's why we want a transparent summing amp, not everything always sounding like a Neve. What if I want to master something. Do they want it Neve? Neve with this Neve with that. Everywhere I go, Neve Neve Neve. Maybe?

I'm not looking for that 70's flavour in every song that comes through my path. I hate that sound in fact but I love a lot of the music of my generation. What I am looking for is that 70's option but with that 2012 big ass bass and sizzle with no noise and channel bleed. Like you are living inside a huge energized space that is so quiet but ready to latch. That's what I'm looking for.
Consoles may have that but they were designed when Tape was happening and are missing some and too much of another. Something like the 2-Bus or MixDream, or lets really get serious, the NEOS makes more sense.
We aren't talking "home recording" here at all. We are talking high quality sound at home or in a large facility.

A DAW has so much more to offer over a console which makes hybrid summing more logical. Notice how I don't think a console is hybrid. Using a console to me is mixing without the word hybrid. Hybrid is using a big headroom analog amp that is transparent and hopefully sweet and silky. Like a big ass hub ready to accept anything you throw at it. Designed to use gear in as straight a wire as possible. I do agree on all you said, but its different for good reason. Not because it lacks.

The only thing missing are knobs.
Oh how I miss knobs.
Saying much more on this, coming from me is only going to upset the balance here because I'm not candy coating my opinion. I'm also not emotionally attached to anything. If I found better, I'd buy it. Maybe I'll buy a NEOS. But I'm not sure I need those faders. I use the gear and their gain.

I do know with absolute confidence that I have more experience in the digital world than most people here. And, because of this, I trust I know why a hybrid system works better for modern music over a console. Prove to me otherwise, I'm all ears?

I've been working this way for years. Digital that is. And before that I was analog. I should never have sold my analog keyboards. But, it taught me something. Glad I dumped that tape deck though!!!! When it was still worth money.
So please don't try and tell me that a console is superior for everything or ITB is the best either. Its cool, but it isn't the best choice when it comes to modern music. A console has its own sound and for the most part, its great for large tracking facilities that also bring in engineers from the outside. They have there place and they have a sound that is often the choice for those types of songs. But for the other types of music, they don't even go to studios like those. They aren't designed the same.

I chose to be in this business for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, like most of us, it was out of love and passion for music and sound. That is what steers us. But, I am also a business man and therefore, pay close attention to where the money is all the time, so I follow trends. So while my friends were lost in the analog domain back in the late 70's, I got wise and saw how the digital world attracted the youth. And where the youth goes, so does the money. I started noticing hit songs on the radio that were produced with electronics and how people loved it. Its never changed. The purists always put down current trends but that doesn't effect me one bit. I've been making money my entire life in the music business because I follow trends and buy into the best that is available for that time.

As an example: I have watched musicians and engineers try and make a kick drum sound like an MPC for hours. So many engineers from my generation don't even realize how much music, they appreciate is generated from samples that don't sound like a kid programming it all. They are competing with this and breaking their balls trying to figure it all out.

As one example: I send a demo to a respected engineer years ago and he swore my electronic drums were real. I choose to sound real or electronic.
Without going on too much here I'm getting ready to duck and coming across like a know it all.
A lot of people spend a lot of time using the wrong things for the wrong types of music. 13 years I have been here and OMG. Look how many people are broke. And it started long before the crash.

Its really easy to see how many people are like 10 to 20 years behind. Does it matter? Not if they are happy where they are. But if they are trying to make a living doing pop music, dump the junk and start programming more and using some hybrid gear.
Please don't tell me that a sample kick, is the real thing done on a Neve....
The new generation is looking for ways to improve their crappy DAW mix. You aren't going to get that through a console that is affordable without following some guidlines, that's for sure. Practice your chops ITB. And you aren't going to get it using some lame interface that costs $200 bucks and an SM58 or USB mic. The acoustic track will sound like ass compared to the VSTi sounds.
Yes you definitely need to know how to work your craft but you also need the right tools for the job.

To get back to this before it went sideways.... it is my opinion that the DAW is the main part and about 10% done OTB is a good thing. If you do it right, it will definitely add some cool vibe. Follow Boswell on that. He has it straight.
To do it really well, to my ears, Stems are the way to go. Not because that's all we have. Because its the right way to go about it. Gear added to those stems is when it really starts to get fun.

If we can cut through any emotional attachment, I could continue this conversation for a year without ever breaking a sweat.
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Wow, what a long one this turned out to be. Sorry if I've offended anyone on this one. Its just another opinion from a guy who thinks he's got it half assed figured. There are many ways to skin a cat. Look what can be accomplished with the StudioLive and a great ear.

Back to the OP and others.

Cheers!

We all have our own ways of working. Yes, while I am more old school 70s like, any of my drum recordings could be converted into killer samples. Yeah, kicks recorded with Neve & API's. All the balls to the walls.

I wouldn't hesitate to utilize stems. You're really just talking about mixing and matching different pieces of equipment and summing them altogether in someone's summer. And one that you feel is fairly technically inert. And I certainly couldn't fault that way of working. But there certainly is more than one way to do this. You have figured out an effective way for your means. To keep up with trends. You have to keep stepping down the bar. I mean, if you like electronica, with sampled slop and other accoutrements, that's fine. That's not recording. That's playing computer games, where music something or the other comes out. And I seemed to remember that your site was called Recording.org? But you're not talking about recording anything. You're talking about summing samples. And if the youth of the world only thinks McDonald's hamburgers are the bees knees, you'll never enjoy a lobster again. Children need to learn from us. We don't need to learn what the children don't know. That's what education is all about. And if a kid doesn't want to be educated in the fine art of recording but would rather play computer games, does that mean everybody should play computer games? I don't think so. You can follow the money and so did all of the people that followed Bernie Madeoff. And where did that trend lead? I don't follow any trends. I don't believe in being a sheep. Even if that is my Chinese zodiac sign I see on my placemat at the restaurant.

Chris, this seems to be more of a professional hobby than a profession for you? It's really not about the equipment, but the technique in using it. Equipment doesn't make recordings. People do. We just use our equipment to capture and manipulate it so that everybody can enjoy it fully. That's our jobs. And that has nothing to do with children's toys. It's all fun to play with. That's another reason why we are engineers. Who doesn't like getting a new piece of gear? I'll never get tired of that. I mean who would want an over 200-year-old violin? What better is a 1960s, Stratocaster than a new one? Why don't all guitarists use transistorized amplifiers with tube front ends? Because a tool in the hands of a professional will always yield better results than the latest newfangled gizmo in the hands of an amateur. (I'm not calling you an amateur). Children are amateur engineers that we need to follow? No. We don't need to do that. But if you can emulate what they want to purchase, that's cool. And if it takes the new toys that you get the new toys. That is if you cannot figure out a different way of doing it? So while I might be rather stodgy, my recordings are quite wonderful for the demographic group that I work for. Kids may equal dollars, but so do adults. I cannot repeatedly lower myself to the lowest common denominator. That's not fun. That's insulting. I don't tell my doctor how to treat me. I don't tell my plumber how to Roto-Rooter my pipes. And I don't care what their tools are that they use as long as it gets the job done.

So while you have indicated that most pop production is a series of samples and some guys slobbering into microphones, go get them tiger. I'd rather check into Auschwitz for the weekend. I think I get a lot more out of that than a bunch of no talent's slobbering into my microphones and utilizing somebody else's samples? My job as an engineer is not to assemble toys for children. I assemble works of art. And those require no samples, other than the ones I record. So you are probably right? I have very little business these days, like so many other studios going out of business. And it has nothing to do with the trends, but really that of the world economy and greed profit mongers. And with a Ponzi pyramid scheme like that, it's bound to tumble at some point. And then the only equipment that will be left and operational is all that old stuff, that was built like a tank. Because all of the nice little Taiwanese toys will have fallen apart long ago. I have 40+ year old Neumann's, API, Neve, RCA, SHURE, and that stuff won't go away until the human race does. All the rest will be long forgotten. Just like Packard's, Hudsons, Studebaker's, MG, Triumph. Legendary in their day and gone today. But there are those other pieces that are still around, and probably for good reason. They were made to last. And a lot of people want that kind of level of quality. And that has nothing to do with keeping up with trends. We don't buy new cars every two years. Though some do. And some replace them every six months. Most don't. You don't purchase a nice house of some age and then sell it to move into a smaller cigar box with a bunch of bells and whistles, only because it's new and what everybody else is living in. Your mother would not have been a great singer if she had gotten stuck in the Metropolitan Opera Chorus. The trend for most singers is to get into a chorus. Others want to stand apart and be soloists. I guess I'm a soloist? Mom and dad were both soloists.

I stand apart from the crowd.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Well, I do all sorts of things here. I'm not stuck in any box or genre or mind set either. Mixing other peoples music is also part of that. I record acoustic music and work with classical musicians. I am also an accomplished musician who uses electronic gear, and proud of it :)
Finding ways to make music sound great is a hobby indeed.
This is recording.org and it doesn't mean you have to use a microphone every step of the way or walk carefully not to offend a purest for fear they will call you a kid for using a keyboard to add a musical part to a song. I record electronic keyboards and electronic guitars too. I use MIDI to capture tracks and I use samples. There are more to recording than a mic and preamp (as if I have to tell you that).

Mixing and summing just happens to be a really interesting topic that is part of the recording process all the way down to mastering.
It about the music and sound here too?

Hobby, professional. Who is making money in this business like we once did. Are you? Are you a professional recording engineer working everyday? They're aren't too many of us around anymore. Its a hobby and a passion I suppose which I make thousands a year from it in many forms.

Ya, you're right. I cannot fault your rationale. But then again, not all symphonic musicians play in rock bands. And not everybody believes rap/hip-hop is actually an art form, even though it is. I certainly love the Masters of the art world, but really never quite appreciated, Picasso. His work was just a little too disjointed for me. Salvador Dali, now there is an acid trip, if ever I saw one. And that's before lysergic acid ever hit the scene. What planet was he from? All those dripping clocks! He was certainly bending space-time. Or maybe just time in space?

I think I'm getting hypoxia? Where's the hose?
Mx. Remy Ann David

What's confusing me here is when I expand on Stem mixing you say its not necessary "anymore" . You just sold your Neve to a NY engineer (considered a leading expert on this process) who stem sums just like this too. http://www.puremix.net/video/mixing/pop/hybrid-digital-analog-mixing.html
He also explains how the Neve monitoring output is coloured. I can elaborate on why this isn't the best and why hybrid monitoring is superior. Hybrid systems were designed out of extensive research.
I don't think you've really updated yourself on this lately? Sorry ( I am having fun) but I can't sit still and let mis information go past a topic we're in without a response and question you in greater detail :)
If you happen to have experience with hybrid DAW summing, based on real hands on experience and not just hear say or guess work ( based around a 30 year old console), I'm listening like a sponge. Lets talk about it in detail (healthy rivalry here) but, you got to give me more than what you have said to keep me quiet.

To clarify, I'm no martyr looking for anyone to agree with any purchase or process around here. This is about sonic improvement tips and techniques to help skills for anyone reading up on hybrid summing. Most engineers I know about, that do this, are claiming better sonic results using stems. So this isn't just me talking here:)

Hobby you say... more like a constant sonic craving of excellence since I was a child, who also has been researching the best bang and process to achieve the finest sound quality for your dollar might a better description.
Forget my name and being the creator of this site and 18 years as a professional musician. What about readers or manufacturers that get screwed over from in accurate comparison attempts or even worse, false testimonials from so many people looking for support on some BS Chinese product they bought. Its a travesty for the analog hardware industry.
This isn't a hobby my friend. Its a calling in my life.
So, I've configured a dream studio that's heading to a pristine lake in Northern Canada where I my music business awaits me.

Only up until last year was I able to get to the point where I call this system "working". Providing you have quality preamps on hand, it can be incredibly versatile for tracking and stellar for mixing and summing acoustic, grit or electronic music. And it is thousands $ less than those big consoles and takes way less room. That's why so many consoles are sitting in hallways gathering dust.
You can start out small and build a hybrid rig. Its modular. Rock, blues, electronica, dance, spa whatever.
Its hard for me to sit back and not be excited or ask questions. Telling people about this technology, how it works best, share idea's is important for the continued support of sonic excellence, for both end user and manufacturer who make incredible gear like this.
We're here to pass it on and suck it up when something changes. Thats how I roll.

Maybe we should have a shootout diddlydoo

i have a loaf of bread and some peanut butter. which side of the bread do i put the peanut butter on?

pbj's@ 10 meters. Be My Girl(Original) by Mr. Sunlight(Robert Biehn) - YouTube

i want a small windows laptop and an 8 or 12 firewire or usb box. run studio one2. maybe a summing box but maybe not. depends on what studio one2 sounds like. set it up on the coffee table and play with it while i watch tv. something tells me it's all i need.

Crazy video, not sure the relevance but I get your drift. Yes, its all you need if its all you expect.
Or, whether you think you can or can't, you are exactly right.
Or, everyone at the party is stoned on Acid. What sounds better, a transistor radio or a full size stereo .

Kurt, I've been meaning to ask you. Are you basing your next system on quality of audio or function being good enough for our times?

As far as StudioLive goes. You get Studio One Artist and Capture with the console. Its an incredible value. The console is amazing. I did comparisons between a FF800 into Sequoia 11 and StudioLive Capture before I sold my FF800's. There was a very obvious sound quality difference. FF800 sounded better. But, here's where it gets interesting to me.

Even though the SL lacked bandwidth and was more metalic sounding, most of our music doesn't need all that top and bottom you hear/ get with higher end converters/ gear. My point here is mixing on this is so easy and the sound quality is good enough for internet audio formats. In fact, I bet its a lot easy to not mess up with this just because you aren't have to deal with as much low end energy taking up space. Get my point?

neither quality or function, just what makes the most sense as far as me being able to justify spending any money on recording gear. this will bring me up current and give me the ability to import export files and projects to other producers / studios.

i am not going to buy a mixer. i am going to pop for studio one2 software, most likely a presonus firewire or usb multichannel converter. should be able to have a virtual mixer w fat channel & plugs. if i am reading it right this should be the same as buying the mixer but without the mixer. maybe get a summing mixer too but only if i absolutely have to.

So little or no tracking?