Any decent hypercardioid

Say goodbye to Mr Hi Hat Spill :D

well, the hihat has never really been a problem, it's the actual tone and charachter of the mics themselves.. the sm57 is too muddy with no attack, various condensers are nice and bright with lots of attack but either a whacked proximity effect or no bottom end at all. any ideas?

Try an AT MB3000, a larger diaphram dynamic vocal mic (about $50). Same top end response as a 57, but extended low end. Also, I have an obscure EV RE-38N and posted a query awhile back as to what it's highest purpose was. A member from Germany has two of them and says it's the best snare mic in the world. I haven't had a rhythm track session . I haven't had a rhythm track session in here since that post, so I can't confirm it . Besides, finding one would be a challenge, and I'm not selling mine :)

Snare Mic

SV,

Funny you should start a thread because I am going through the same thing.

Everywhere you look or read, all you hear is, "Yeah, just use the SM57" and "Oh, gotta use an SM57 on the snare!" So, of course, you use one! And, I have gotten some great sounds out of it. But, lately, my results have been the same - uninspired, lifeless, dull. It's not a phasing thing and it's not a position thing - I've looked into those a lot. I guess experimentation has run its course.

I have tried a few condensers - some C1000's and a Studio Projects B3. The B3 was actually really nice - it just caught way too much hihat and couldn't be used on anything really rocking heavy.

I thinking of trying out some e604's or maybe a Beta56 and see what happens. Anyone try any of those out on the snare?

Chris
http://www.betamonkeymusic.com

Try mic'ing the bottom of the snare, and combining the signal with the 57 on the top (don't forget to reverse the phase on the bottom mic). Works wonders! Much more pop!

I use a 57 on the top, and a Sennheiser MD441 on the bottom. Fantastic!

Also, maybe some EQ treatment is in order? How about the snare tuning? Just some other things to try...

I thought I heard the studio projects C-1 was good.Why don't you talk to alan Hyatt in the PMI section of the forum.Plus you can use it for vocals

The C1 is great if you don't mind a little more hat bleed, and you aren't really slammin'.

Doublehelix wrote: Try mic'ing the bottom of the snare, and combining the signal with the 57 on the top (don't forget to reverse the phase on the bottom mic). Works wonders! Much more pop!

I use a 57 on the top, and a Sennheiser MD441 on the bottom. Fantastic!

Also, maybe some EQ treatment is in order? How about the snare tuning? Just some other things to try...

I totally agree Doublehelix, exactly what I was gonna say! :)

Yes I agree with Doublehelix as well. The 441 is a great mic for many things - I used to totally abuse mine by sticking it in the kick drum, but next session it would be on brass or backing vocals and it always delivered. It's a very tight mike.

What about the AKG C747?

incredible, incredible, incredible sound on snares, my friends!

somebody from akg told me that the mic was designed especifically for that application

Salmacis

I've been resisting using the SM57 on snare recently - I want a different sound! Here's what I've been using and have been happy with:

Old C451, use pad
New C451B, use pad
CK61-ULS with homebuilt tube body
Altec M11 Coke Bottle
Oktava MK012, use pad
Audio Technica Pro37R

I like to listen to the snare through each of the mics and pick the one I like the best on that one. I'll try a 57 too but I don't frequently pick it.

The top/bottom mic is sure the first thing to try to get a "truer" snare sound: a mic on the top head alone doesn't sound like a snare to me, more like a gunshot at 150db, while adding a bottom mic you can capture the shell resonance and springs (should I say snares? :lol: ) that IMO are an essential part of the sound.

Plus, what preamp are you using with that 57? May be a thing worth investigating, and usually to get that crack out of the snare you need to EQ and compress it a fair bit, according to the rest of the kit and the track.

Anyway since I assume you already did these things, a mic I tried on the snare and gave me an accurate and way present sound was the Neumann KM 84 (the old one, not the new KM184 which I haven't tried in that position), lots of detail and a fairly hot output, so maybe you'll need to pad your pre.

Another trick is to tape two mics together (say a 57 with the KM84) and put them one on top of the other so that the capsules are almost lined up and phase coherent, then you blend them on the same track or filter what you don't need out of both and combine, must 've time to experiment a bit, but some great sounds can come out of such a combination.
I read some guys like an AKG 414 B-ULS in hipercardioid mode and pad engaged.

In general condensers will give you more detail and presence then a dynamic, try it out and see if you like it.

Hope this helps

L.G.

svart,

Have you tried another 57?

Aloha,
Stabb

They can be a bit hard to find but a Beyer M201N is very nice on snare. It may be a bit too dark for many but I like it because it adds a "fattness" that I like. ... I also like to put a AT Pro35X clip-on on the bottom of the snare with the phase flipped along with the 201 or a 57 on top.

Hey thanks everybody!

Since each one of you gave detailed and very good ideas I can't answer everybody but I've tried a few 57's, I've also mic'd the bottom head with 57's,a mk-219, mc-012s, C1 and a few others. I moved the bottom mic to a side mic and decided the mc-012 was a contender, but I don't care for it on the top head. I haven't tried the C1 on the top but i will certainly give it a try this week when i have time. Other than that I have tried a pile (literally) of different heads and 3 different snares(each with different shells, steel/wood/brass). If you wanted to know i chose a 12x8 maple handmade snare to focus on with it's deep sound but loud and quick attack.

also i noticed something different with two of the mics. the sm57 and the mc-012 on the snare, the sm57 on top(many different positions) and the mc-012 on the side. when attempting to mix these two I can't seem to get one's frequencies to fill in with the other. in layman's terms they just don't sound good together, I could get the 57 sounding pretty good but lacking in the snares attack, and the mc-012 sounding really good for the attack but when mixed together they seem to stand apart in the mix. I've tried reversing phase and moving mics and the effect lessens but so do the sweet spots.
I would have tried more mics and different approaches but time to experiment is something i don't have nearly enough of these days!

Any ideas?

Kurt was right on with the Beyer M201, I love that mic on snare.

Also sometimes like MD 441 or MD 421.

Another vote for the M201. Get one, you'll never want any other mic on snare.

two mics on top

worked with a guy in town that used a 57 and a 451, both on top, both pointing at the same point (the heads were almost touching) and it gave a great sound without dealing with phase issues. The 57 gave all sorts of punch and body, and the 451 gave a great crack that cut through. You should be able to substitute your favorite/available dynamics and condensers.

BTW, early in the thread, you asked about the D1. I've got a set of Audix drum mics, and love 'em for live stuff -- haven't tried them in the studio. The D2 is my preference on snare, just because it has an bit fuller/warmer sound. If you're micing a sharp piccolo snare, then the D1 would be the ticket.

Thanks Captainbonehead, I actually found a deal earlier on a D1 so it's on it's way. I am also looking for the m201 everyone seems to like... can't have too many different mics around the studio! I'll keep everyone informed of what i find and I'll post a sample when i get it right.

thanks again!

now was that the fostex m201?

:P

just kidding. I see one on ebay that might become a new toy in a few days..

To the very best of my knogledge..99% of the "crack"..acturel snare sound..comes from the OH`s..a well placed set of OH´s that is..The closed miced snare mic never really comes close does it..??

The sound imho is in the OH, and/or room mics

Kind regards

Peter

i'll agree with axis.dk. and if you add a good amount of compression to the overheads and/or room (also depending on the kind of music) you will get a lot of presence and crack from the snare and the rest of the kit, inculing toms. of course if evereything in your sound chain is great, e.g. drummer, drums, room, mic(s), mic pre(s), compressor, eq, multitrack, engineer,etc...

try using compressors that are "agressive" e.g. urei 1176, dbx 160, that kind.

Yeah i compress the daylights out of the overheads to tell the truth, and I do get a great deal of snare sound(good sound too) but i also use hand hammered cymbals and they tend to splash(make brash sounds and wash out the mics) when the mics are close enough to get a great snare sound. I've tried moving the cymbals further away (and adding pads to the mics) but i just can't reach them after that! so, I have ended up moving the mics further away. I have also tried various room mic combinations but get similar results.

what's a decent price to pay for the M201?

What are you using for a preamp? I wouldn't mind betting that's where most of your problems are. IMHO you need a good pre to get a good snare sound...... and kick for that matter. My kick and snare sounds sucked until I got a high-end preamp.

Does it sound OK soloed? If so, check you are not getting phase problems between you snare mic and others, like overheads and kick. start with just the snare and bring in the other mics one by one.

And try the Beta57. hypercardioid and higher SPL than the standard 57.

Maybe your problem is mic placement.

For me, the killer snare tone is a 12x6 maple snare with Oktava MK-219 with low-cut and pad turned on, aimed at the top rim about 4-6" away from the edge of the rim.

Goes from "touch" to "crack" with plenty of body, really sensitive.

Of course I have to agree that the pre can make a huge difference, in terms of transient response and detail, also in the way it loads the microphone and reflects its input impedance on the output of the mic.

FWIW I don't like a 57 on snare drum at all for any reason. I can work with a modern SM58 on the top head of the snare drum if there's already a pretty good sound in the overheads alone and all I need is to add a bit of "punch" or "out front" from the snare. But for a balanced snare drum tone, dynamic mics just don't cut it.

Markd102,

My kick and snare sounds sucked until I got a high-end preamp.

OK...what preamp would this be? :P (and what were you using that sucked?)

Thanks,

Dean

As Said Before change your placement, snare, or tell the drummer to play differently. Hitting a snare to hard kills the snap and thuds. Where did you put your snare mics. A close 57 nere the rim gives you a great ring and body but not alot of snap and attack, a bottom snare mic is ment for that with the overheads. The more a sound gets to breeth the more it devolopes, hense a more well rounded picture of it. I always thought close mics on a kit are ment to bring out more of the indivisaul instruments tone and attack. First off I know you said you tried but switch snares placements and tunnings and you should be able to get that sound your looking for. That said if you have a great sounding snare a Earthworks Direction mic is probrally the truest sounding direction mic made and can handle upwards of 150SPL's. Also give us some more info on how you get your snare sound, also what equipment your using. Most dynamic mics such as a SM57 are very sensitive to the input load on the preamp side, which drastictly changes how the mic reacts to dynamics and frequency.

Hello,

In regards to mic placement, the various top mics were placed anywhere from right over the snare pointing straight down to up to 10 inches away and pointing parallel with the head(not necessarily in that combination). I have tried just about every angle and distance with very interesting and informative results. i have tried bottom mics ranging right against the snares to more than a foot away, and even micing the shell itself. and again I learned a lot about sound at various sources but fail to get a true image of the snare itself. this snare IS a 12x8 maple and is properly tuned, as I did it myself(10 years drumming, 8 guitar).

and still I don't know how many records I've done or know of that got a great & classic snare sound with one, or a pair of 57's, or a 57 and something else, even as 1 of 3 or 2 of three. I mean (just like the NS10 threads) you can hate it...but the history dosen't lie. I can get a great snare sound with only 57's...all the time..anywhere. That means there must be something more to it than the mic(s). Right?

RecorderMan wrote: I can get a great snare sound with only 57's...all the time..anywhere. That means there must be something more to it than the mic(s). Right?

Yes... your opinion of what is a "great snare sound" is the most obvious variable.

Certainly there are many other variables. I don't hear a "great" snare drum sound on 99% of records I hear; new, old, classic, you name it.

krash wrote: [quote=RecorderMan]I can get a great snare sound with only 57's...all the time..anywhere. That means there must be something more to it than the mic(s). Right?

Yes... your opinion of what is a "great snare sound" is the most obvious variable.

Certainly there are many other variables. I don't hear a "great" snare drum sound on 99% of records I hear; new, old, classic, you name it.

Then I would challenge you to re-think what you think a great snare sound is. Often over time our opnion grows, and changes: taking many turns and sometimes going in the opposite direction of what it was previous; and into the future.

With out a doubt though it really begins and ends with the drummer. At that point you can either capture it wonderfully or mess it up...and even then if it's a great song with a great arrangement, played by great musicians, it's irrelevant (mostly).

If you can't get an M201, consider an ATM23HE.

I don't hear a "great" snare drum sound on 99% of records I hear; new, old, classic, you name it.

Just because you have not heard a large amount of great snare sounds, that doesn't mean they don't exist. You may need to open up your musical pallet and/or upgrade your monitors...

And just like RecorderMan and may others besides and before us, I've never had a problem I couldn't overcome with using or having to use a SM57 to get a great snare sound.

deanp920 wrote: Markd102,

My kick and snare sounds sucked until I got a high-end preamp.

OK...what preamp would this be? :P (and what were you using that sucked?)

Thanks,

Dean

I now have a Buzz Audio SSA1.1
It's the best thing I bought so far. Really made me realize how good the higher-end stuff is and how much better your recordings sound. But remember you still need quality players and instruments.

Until then I was trying to use a Mindprint Envoice and DI-Port, A Mackie VLZ mixer and a Soundcraft Spirit Live. I even tried the Digi001 pres..... YUK!

Just remember also that if the snare (and all the drums for that matter) sounds great acoustically, then it will probably record fine. But if it sounds like you're hitting a wet fish, then it doesn't matter how many $$$ worth of gear you point at it... it'll still sound like a wet fish. There's nothing better than a well tuned drum kit with new skins....... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

RecorderMan wrote: [quote=krash]I don't hear a "great" snare drum sound on 99% of records I hear; new, old, classic, you name it.

Then I would challenge you to re-think what you think a great snare sound is.

Huh? My opinion of what a great recorded snare drum sound is needs to conform to the "norm" of a snare drum recorded with an SM57? That's completely ridiculous.

I think I'm entitled to like or dislike recordings as I see fit and they don't need to conform to anything. Likewise, you are entitled to like or dislike my recordings or those that I like as you see fit.

krash wrote: Likewise, you are entitled to like or dislike my recordings or those that I like as you see fit.

not exactly. I don't work in a vacuum. Admittely my job comes into play after theres's a studio/drummer/kit chosen. Although on many of those decisions my imput is appreciated. But If I'm working with Josh Freese or Matt Chamberlin or Ringo I'm exected to get a great drum sound fairly fast. Usually it's a 57(s). If they don't like it then I hear about it. Live instruments are a specialty of mine (especially drums). You don't get a great snare sound from just the close mics...and most things more hi-fi than a 57 1. pick up too much hat. 2. Don't grab the mids as well 3. Too delicate for a snare. My OH's give me alot of 'air' and 'crack' so the close mics just fill in the fat and punch.
Also..wouldn't it be cool to get a great snare sound with a cheap mic like a 57 other than an expensive job?
It again is down to the player. Give me great player in a reasonable space with just a mackie and a bunch of 57's and i could get a decent drum sound (my decent is really good).
There ARE with out a doubt a near infinite variety of mics/gear that will work...adjsut accordingly. I'm jsut always trying to give sown to earth, relatively economical advice.

I just thought that claiming that 99% of snare drums sounds on record sounded a little elitist. Even if you recorded 99 albums. Maybe saying it's not your cup of tea is more on target.

Lastly, I hate it when music is broken down to lists, numbers or awards. IMO the snare sound should fit the song, and it is excepting special cases, only one part of one instrument...all be it an important one in rock (THE BACK BEAT!!).

and a 1, 2
1 2 3 _ GO!

I agree with everything you said.

Drum miking, imho, has to be regarded on the whole rather than an as how to mic the individual instruments. In fact I have often used an SM58 exactly as you describe to add punch etc. to my snare drum in recordings whose drum sounds were otherwise nearly complete with the ambient mics alone. FWIW I didn't get a "great" snare drum sound by any stretch with this technique... usable, though. I get closer with each recording I make.

But I'd still have to say, I find most records that include live drum sounds (taking averages... not most great records, or most audiophile-type records, or most classic records, or... but sheer quantity, most records), probably an exaggeration to say 99% as I originally did, but far and away the majority, do not have anything close to a "great" drum sound, snare drum or no, and I do think it has a lot to do with "standard" technique, a crutch. Stick a 57 on it, it'll sound great... it's so easy, you don't even have to think about it or work it out. Recording snare drums and guitar cabinets with an SM57 is like crawling right into the box.

I mean, is there a single Beatles record with a great snare drum sound? Unlikely they were done with an SM57, but still, sometimes it's passable, sometimes it's ok, but never great. But they are great records nonetheless, most of us agree. How many pop records made between 1983 and 1993 have a great snare drum sound on them? There's an entire decade that really brings down the average.

So yeah, I guess most snare drum tones on records are not to my liking, my taste differs. Maybe. I think from some people I have worked with and their comments, most of what people think of as "good" drum tone is based more on what's familiar and common, rather than on what really sounds good. What's familiar and common may be based more on fashion trends in music recording than on good practice... the old late '80s gated reverbs on snare drums for example, driven by technology trends as much as anything.

wow, I didn't mean to touch on such an opinionated subject. i just wanted to experiment and open up my possibilities with the favorite snare mic opinion of others without buying every type of mic availiable and breaking my bank trying to find it! I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and say that I find "Then I would challenge you to re-think what you think a great snare sound is" a bit troublesome because as was stated later, we do experiment and grow with our knowledge but our styles and methods are also ultimately shaped by popularity and popular opinion is not shared by all. Recorderman is expected to get a "great" sound quickly, but that is why people go to him, to get HIS sound in a short amount of time. why? because they(the ones with money and sales on the mind) think it sounds good. however I would be willing to bet that there are just as many people who may like Krash's or other's styles just as much.

Originally I didn't state this but I also didn't want to ruffle feathers either, but if I were going for that popular sound I wouldn't have even needed to post but would have just kept on tracking, but it's not what I'm looking for here because it doesn't fit the song material(as recorderman understands).

but I digress, I'll just experiment a bit more.

Cheers!

a great topic it is svart!

no worries...no problems. I'm just arguing my point. with a smile I might add. It's good that we all don't agree...what point would that serve. Take my so called OH technique. it's only ONE way to get the job done. The point of this forum is to ask, tell , teach and learn.
:D

krash,
I am dying of curiosity what you define as a great snare tone. Could you please name a specific record or records or perhaps post an mp3 of one that you recorded yourself?

Thanks Kurt