Hi!
I have been slowly working on building out a new room in my basement for practicing/recording drums.
It's been a slow process, that has thus far involved removing water heaters, and breaking up the concrete floor to re-route the water main so that I have a relatively unobstructed floor space to work with.
I have about 8' 4" from floor to the bottom of the ceiling joists, and about 11 1/2' x 14' of space to work with.
As a side note, the rest of the basement is finished, and the lovely wife isn't wild about me tearing that stuff apart as I do my build.
I have started beefing up the existing subfloor above my space using 'rods method' of adding two layers of 5/8 drywall between the joists, with green glue, and then battening them into place with 1x2.
My plan is to build the 'room in a room' and have a new "inner ceiling" supported by the new framing I build.
In the picture attached you can see what I have going on thus far.
My questions are:
In the attached picture, you can see a space (labeled A). On the other side of that is the brick veneer of my home.
If I seal that area up with drywall and acoustic sealant, am I essentially creating a small 3-leaf system once I have my drum rooms walls built? Should I fill that cavity with layers of drywall? just insulation? Or is it such a small space that I shouldn't be fretting about three leaves?
Also, Above this ceiling is our 'formal' dining room (not used much).
In the space labeled "B" you can see the ductwork feeding the vents in that dining room.
Keeping in mind that I AM going to be building that decoupled "inner" ceiling, what should I do about that duct and vent feeding the dining room?
Attached files 
Comments
DogsoverLava, post: 456366, member: 48175 wrote: Is the kid with
DogsoverLava, post: 456366, member: 48175 wrote: Is the kid with the anxiety issues old enough to participate with you on the planning and construction of the drum room? I ask because even as a young person, involving them in some way with this process on the learning and planning side will also clandestinely empower them - it's like therapy without therapy - plus it will provide some bonding time/experience between you and them with the drums and the drum room suddenly being nexus you have in common - not something this new dad dude is inflicting on them....
He's 13, so I suppose he is old enough, though I'm not sure he is particularly interested. He and I tend to bond over our mutual love of sports cars, while his older brother and I tend to have a connection over geeky stuff and music/technology. He is far more likely to be interested in helping out with the studio build.
But that doesn't mean I won't try to loop the younger guy in too. Although he is the only person I have met who just flatly says "I hate music", he does like building things, so maybe I can interest him in that way.
I'm new to the whole "step-dad" thing. It's not always easy, so your advice is very much appreciated.
kmetal, post: 456405, member: 37533 wrote: the way i see it, the iso wall is already there, its just too far off the foundation. the wall in front of the sump pump can be modified easisly enough, so nothings 'added', it can even be moved around. attach it back with a couple iso clips, and done.
When I look at the wall, I don't see a whole lot that can be done with, but another set of eyes can certainly see things that I am missing. I feel like you are trying to communicate an idea of what you think I should do with that wall, and I appreciate it. However, I'm not completely sure I understand what you are getting at. One thing that may be confusing the issue is that in my drawing I FORGOT to include the 4" pipe that is part of the radon mitigation system. That is in the closet as well, between the concrete wall and the sump pump.. kinda in that top right corner.
I DO have some leeway in the "studio" room, with those closets and whatnot. I can move stuff around if need be, so long as it still looks nice when I am done, so if you have time and the inclination, I'd be thrilled if you could clarify what you are talking about. Maybe mock something up on the drawing I did? I'm not trying to be a pain, I'm just not sure what you are getting at.
kmetal, post: 456405, member: 37533 wrote: Planning is everything with these things.
Yep. Just the other night my wife commented: "I had NO idea the amount of planning that was going to need to go into this!"
She wasn't complaining, she was just surprised at how meticulous and obsessive I was being about it.
In most things, I tend to be a kinda "fly by the seat of my pants" sort of guy.
kmetal, post: 456405, member: 37533 wrote: okay that makes sense. it still seems more complicated than the ceiling needs to be for this application, but thats just my opinion. If you do the Rusc-1 clips, you could handle 3x 5/8's layers, w GG. that to me seems easier than an inside out, if those worse are and issue. Other than that, the basic independently framed ceiling still seems to me, to be the best. especially since the Clips/Channel system isnt very effective for impact noise, like kids stamping their feet, or pet nails.
Yeah. I am still on the fence about how I am going to do the ceiling. The inside-out ceiling DOES seem like it will be more challenging, but has a couple of bonuses that I really like:
1) If I ever need to, I can pull down a panel by cutting the acoustic caulk out, removing the screws and pulling the panel down. Then I can get at whatever I need to above that panel, put the panel back in and seal it back up.
2) I can take the panels with me if I ever need to build somewhere else.
3) The framing of the panel and the alternating heights between the 2x8 joists, the 2x4 panel framing, and the OSB backing, should act as a diffuser.
But just putting up RISC clips and hanging 3 layers of drywall off RC certainly is appealing from the "ease of installation" aspect of things. And my drum room is going to be directly below the formal dining room, which is rarely used, and the dog isn't allowed in there. We have him gated to only be in the living room and kitchen. He's a little guy, so that's plenty of room for him.
I think I wouldn't get as good of isolation if I went with RISC clips from the existing joists though. I am really shooting for as close to 60DB as I can get.
I may not get that much, but it's my goal.
A quick question:
As I think I mentioned I play at around 115-118DB when I am really wailing. If I can get 60DB of isolation, I should only be 55-58DB outside of my drum room.
I think I read that every doubling of distance should lower my volume by roughly 5DB. So, at 10 feet from my door I'd be 50-53DB, and at 20' from the drum room, I'd be roughly 45-48?
I think my question is, what effect do the walls in the house between my drum room and the living room upstairs have on the sound?
I think 30DB is what a typical wall provides, but I have a hard time believing I'm going to get the volume from 45 to 15DB just because of the walls in the house between my drum room and the living room.
I don't know the math involved, but my gut tells me that's just not how it works.
Maybe it's not really even possible to accurately predict how the sound will behave going from a sound isolated room in the basement to a living room 20-25 feet away on another floor of the house?
This is my main reason for trying to just get as much isolation as is realistically possible when I do this build.
Jason Morris, post: 456439, member: 51197 wrote: When I look at
Jason Morris, post: 456439, member: 51197 wrote: When I look at the wall, I don't see a whole lot that can be done with, but another set of eyes can certainly see things that I am missing. I feel like you are trying to communicate an idea of what you think I should do with that wall, and I appreciate it. However, I'm not completely sure I understand what you are getting at. One thing that may be confusing the issue is that in my drawing I FORGOT to include the 4" pipe that is part of the radon mitigation system. That is in the closet as well, between the concrete wall and the sump pump.. kinda in that top right corner.
I DO have some leeway in the "studio" room, with those closets and whatnot. I can move stuff around if need be, so long as it still looks nice when I am done, so if you have time and the inclination, I'd be thrilled if you could clarify what you are talking about. Maybe mock something up on the drawing I did? I'm not trying to be a pain, I'm just not sure what you are getting at.
yeah sorry for not articulating better, i was planning on trying to do a quick sketch of what i meant since i was having a hard time putting it into words. ill see if i can do it in the next day or three.
Jason Morris, post: 456439, member: 51197 wrote: Yeah. I am still on the fence about how I am going to do the ceiling. The inside-out ceiling DOES seem like it will be more challenging, but has a couple of bonuses that I really like:
1) If I ever need to, I can pull down a panel by cutting the acoustic caulk out, removing the screws and pulling the panel down. Then I can get at whatever I need to above that panel, put the panel back in and seal it back up.
2) I can take the panels with me if I ever need to build somewhere else.
3) The framing of the panel and the alternating heights between the 2x8 joists, the 2x4 panel framing, and the OSB backing, should act as a diffuser.
#1 is a good reason, i wasnt thinking of it like that.
im not sure how usefully portable everything would be, as far as moving the entire build goes. The glass at Normandy took 4 guys to carry in. it took six grown dudes to hang the 6'x8' front cloud at the wave cave. its a 2x6 frame, with 1 layer osb, and one or two layers of 5/8s drywall for the backing, with rigid fiberglass in the middle. To contrast, the 8x11 booths, have a 2x6 ceiling, which i framed alone, and did some of the drywall layers on the ceiling alone. you can always add a sealed access panel/doorway to get to key areas.
as far as diffusion goes, its not applicable to rooms this size. they done hold the cubic footage necessary for to have a diffuse sound field. no matter what the product, object, or method is called, diffusion isnt what it really is. diffusers can still look cool, and be used, they just arent diffusing the sound. beyond that, even in rooms large enough to have a diffuse field, diffusion is very difficult to calculate, and a best guess is as close as it ever gets. Auralization software is the closest it gets, by simulating the acoustics of large areas, but the software is priced for pros, and has a learning curve that's steep. and even then its and estimate. acoustics, is an Art/Science, it hasn't been completely defined yet, and theres no way to predict timbre of the speakers, which varies widely. two differnt model 'flat frequency response' speakers, will sound different, often significantly different.
i was surprised to hear they tuned the power station by ear, adding layers of shellac until the right amount of brightness was in the room. 7 coats i think was the number. they also took the treatment up and down severeal times until it was right.
Jason Morris, post: 456439, member: 51197 wrote: I think I wouldn't get as good of isolation if I went with RISC clips from the existing joists though. I am really shooting for as close to 60DB as I can get.
I may not get that much, but it's my goal.
Thats about as much as youll get with the Risc Clips system, and the massed up ceiling. if i can find it, ill attach a pic of the theatre line voltage wires, being run above the channel, and thru holes in the studs. anything more than low 60's, and independent framing is the only way to go.
Jason Morris, post: 456439, member: 51197 wrote: As I think I mentioned I play at around 115-118DB when I am really wailing. If I can get 60DB of isolation, I should only be 55-58DB outside of my drum room.
I think I read that every doubling of distance should lower my volume by roughly 5DB. So, at 10 feet from my door I'd be 50-53DB, and at 20' from the drum room, I'd be roughly 45-48?
I think my question is, what effect do the walls in the house between my drum room and the living room upstairs have on the sound?
I think 30DB is what a typical wall provides, but I have a hard time believing I'm going to get the volume from 45 to 15DB just because of the walls in the house between my drum room and the living room.
I don't know the math involved, but my gut tells me that's just not how it works.Maybe it's not really even possible to accurately predict how the sound will behave going from a sound isolated room in the basement to a living room 20-25 feet away on another floor of the house?
i'll preface by saying i dont know what the official methods are, ie what AES or some other standards organization recommends. It is also possible to find a TL 9transmission loss) calculator to help predict isolation levels. Rods first book included it in spreadsheet form, but they don't seem to be available anymore. John H Brandt's website has several calculators, i forget if there's TL one or not. One important thing to keep in mind is that the TL/Isolation DB value is frequncy dependent. a wall that blocks 40DB @100hz, will block around 32DB @50hz. As you drop an octave, you loose 6db or so of isolation. Most STC ratings are centered at 1K or 500hz octave bands, and thats why they dont translate to musical rooms well. they're vocal frequencies.
as far as existing walls, sound is going to take the path of least resistance, so in a typical house, its going to make its way along the floor and ceiling joists and sheathing, effectively bypassing the walls. Structural Vibration Analysis is of my league, and why i call people like rod, when i get stumped, and generally stick with tried and true, since the calcs and tests have been done. in rods book, i believe he says the resonant frequency of the example deck assembly was 18 or 19 hz.
What ive always done for ,measurements, is measure 3' outside the door, then measure at various points of concern, usually directly above the studio, and then living rooms ect. i do it w a sound meter. i play the sounds at listening/performing volume. i play music, pink noise, and then some test tones, with the frequencies under 200hz being the main concern. but i do the basic 500/1k/5k frequencies, just to have them. then i make a quick chart.
that gives me the difference in Dbs, at the source (or 3' away), 3' outside the room, and at the other points of concern around the house. i do the test tones, pink noise, and music, so i have a good sort average of whats happening in reality.
then i just figure something like this. okay the existing ceiling is blocking about 25 db, my new one is expected to be 40 db, and add them. so if the drums are 115db, that's 50DB left. you figure 30db is a is going to be ambient noise is any room (aka silence), that leaves 20db of audible noise. thats softer than most people talk, watch tv, or listen to music, so in theory, the 65 is enough isolation. if you do that for a couple different locations, youve got a nice little isolation map. ive found that generally the math holds true, but there are anomalies in the real world that make testing valid. windows, construction methods, holes, access panels, ect can all make testing a revealing exercise.
the wave cave booths are 2x4 and 2x6 double walls, 2x6 ceiling, and 3layers 5/8 inside, 2 layers 5/8 outside. the drums are right next to the booth, and are audible in the booth, but not super loud, mostly is some snare bleed. Mics dont pick up the drums, in the booth, even condensers. The drums are not audible in the Control room, 25' away, thru double 2x4 walls, and 2x 5/8's on either side. outside the booth i measure about a 45db reduction in sound, which was a JCM800 guitar amp and strat.
ive never done a true scientific level acoustic test, or control room eval, ive always just done the basic tests, and basic mode calculations, for acoustic planning/testing, and known tested assemblies and number for the isolation part of it. then i just kind of align things as much as possible given whatever other variables need consideration. The actual isolation construction methods, are well defined, and those are written law, the decoupling ect. i dont sway from those. the acoustics side of it is more of an estimate, with the tried and true methods to actually make the things.
im not suggesting its not worth persuing, just, i dont know how to do advanced calculations ect. thats the stuff im trying to learn with the physics and math classes online.
That said, the sound of the room is already defined, by the space. so the rules of thumb for treatment location, and bass trapping, are the best you can do, and all you can do. So i try not to get too hung up on predictive numbers, since i know i'm going to max out the treatment/budget, and live with the results, or apply the basics, and keep on Tuning until its as good as can be.
kmetal, post: 456443, member: 37533 wrote: yeah sorry for not ar
kmetal, post: 456443, member: 37533 wrote: yeah sorry for not articulating better, i was planning on trying to do a quick sketch of what i meant since i was having a hard time putting it into words. ill see if i can do it in the next day or three.
Thanks man, I will look forward to seeing that.
On another note, I have also been thinking about HVAC.
I think I am going to have an inlet coming from the RIGHT side of the house, across the soffited area over the "studio" space. I'd be cutting a hole in the wall to the outside right next to the sump pump.
The stale air would be exhausted out the other side of the drum room into the garage.
I think for a room this small I should be able to get away with a pair of these:
https://www.zoro.com/fantech-inline-centrifugal-duct-fan-6-in-dia-fr150/i/G2701973/
One for fresh air in, and one for stale air out. I "think" I would only need one silencer box for each side.
For cooling and heating, I was planning to do a mini-split system. The compressor would be placed outside, near the air 'inlet' fan.
I don't have room for a silencer box on each side of the double-walls, so I think I will just be wrapping neoprene around the area of the silencer box that penetrates the walls.
Does this make sense? OR is there a better way to get fresh air in and stale air out of a little space like this?
kmetal, post: 456449, member: 37533 wrote: you could use one of
kmetal, post: 456449, member: 37533 wrote: you could use one of the other rooms, or the hall as an exchange chamber for fresh/stale air, provided the numbers lined up. For taking in outside air, Rod recommended to me a Broan HRV unit.
Yikes. Those things look expensive. Doesn't mean I can't do it, but it may slow things down a little, as I was expecting the vent fans to be a couple hundred bucks.
More to think about. Thanks!
I wonder if something like the Fantech AEV 1000 would work? htt
I wonder if something like the Fantech AEV 1000 would work?
https://www.westsidewholesale.com/fantech-aev1000.html
I wonder if the ports are large enough?
One thing I wasnt clear on from Rod's book was what size ports I should be looking at for devices like this?
Ok, so I have spent the past day going down the HVAC rabbit hole
Ok, so I have spent the past day going down the HVAC rabbit hole.
I didnt really spend enough time thinking about how I was going to run ducts and where I was going to put silencer boxes.
What i thought I was going to do was just suck fresh air in one side and blow it out the other.
Turns out it's not as easy as that.
I'm not sure how far away I need to have the fresh air vent from the stale air intake vent.. My cousin is an HVAC guy, and he says at least 3 feet when dealing with a ERV, which doesnt seem like much distance.
But of course my room is so small it still presents problems when dealing with silencer boxes. I'l probably have to soffet something down.
In the mean time, I think I have come up with a place to put at least ONE of the silencer boxes I will need.
If I am designing these boxes wrong, let me know.
Attached files 
Jason Morris, post: 456454, member: 51197 wrote: I wonder if som
Jason Morris, post: 456454, member: 51197 wrote: I wonder if something like the Fantech AEV 1000 would work?
https://www.westsidewholesale.com/fantech-aev1000.html
I wonder if the ports are large enough?
One thing I wasnt clear on from Rod's book was what size ports I should be looking at for devices like this?
It looked about half the price of a comparable broan HRV, and is German designed, two good things in my book. What im not sure of, is if an HRV, and an AEV, and ERV, are interchangeable. Rod said to put the HRV above the Blower for the ductless mini split system. the reason was for fresh air, and the HRV, was to pre treat the fresh air, so your not blowing icy air in on a freak NE cold day, or Air conditioning out in the summer. and also to maintain proper pressure in the room.
You have alot of available other spaces, so its possible just to exchange air with the garage, or a hallway. Typical residential mini splits, and window a/c's get their fresh air exchange via adjacent rooms, thru common gaps around doors ect. So maybe a closet, the hall, or the Control room could function as an exchange chamber.
ducting size depends on the unit, which depends on your requirements. Did you do the calculations rod describe in the HVAC chapter? the requirements need to be dfiened first, then you pick out thje components, and do the runs.s
Jason Morris, post: 456478, member: 51197 wrote: I didnt really spend enough time thinking about how I was going to run ducts and where I was going to put silencer boxes.
You may not need silencer boxes. bends in the ducting should allow you to omit them, but it all depends on what you need. right now, we need a spreadsheet with your HVAC and electrical requirements. those numbers will determine the sizes snd spec of any hardware you might need, and allow you to evaluate and eliminate different methods. We have to know the needs first. it could be as simple as a hole in the wall and some ducting with bends in it.
Jason Morris, post: 456478, member: 51197 wrote: What i thought I was going to do was just suck fresh air in one side and blow it out the other.
one way or the other that is what will be done.
Heres some examples from the home theater project, of some sprea
Heres some examples from the home theater project, of some spreadsheets, and a basic electrical layout. The hvac calcs were rough figured by me using a BTU calc app on my phone. we then just planned the electrical requirements for the multi split systems based on that, and some basic blower locations. the HVAC company handled the final specs, and i fractured my spine during that time, so i had to bow out of the theater project just before the drywall phase, and i dont have much with reguard to HVAC on that project. My cousins home studio has a Diaken multi split, and a bathroom fan which runs to the outside. It works enough as far as keeping things comfortable, but the humidity isn't controlled, and screws up intonation and tuning on the guitars. I consider this one of the mistakes on that studio, and i havent repeated it since.
Attached files 
A couple of plan veiws to compliment the handwritten one, and so
A couple of plan veiws to compliment the handwritten one, and some pics of the electrical. i have some better shots of it somehwere, but ive been slowly archinving my last 15 years worth of files, setting up a brand new system, and network, but you can see the wires running thru the joists, but above the channel, which i had mentioned in a previous post. just fyi
Attached files 
Ill spare you the movie clip i have from the day i walked into N
Ill spare you the movie clip i have from the day i walked into Normandy to mix, and there was a puddle of water in the Control Room, from the leaky roof. Ditto for the bathroom. The guys 'fixed' it about half a dozen times. No Bueno. If you need inspiration to 'do it right', or 'wait a bit more', let me know and ill send them over. I know at some point your will could be tested.
i will also quickly point out, ive seen several dripping singers, and drummers, walking out to the Wave Cave iso booth, which has no hvac. i consider this a mistake, but it wasnt my choice, and generally, its used to hold speaker cabs. but still...
When Normandy happened, we had to fix, and run ducting to the other vocal booth. so far so good. i didnt do it, an hvac guy did.
Attached files 
kmetal, post: 456483, member: 37533 wrote: You have alot of avai
kmetal, post: 456483, member: 37533 wrote: You have alot of available other spaces, so its possible just to exchange air with the garage, or a hallway. Typical residential mini splits, and window a/c's get their fresh air exchange via adjacent rooms, thru common gaps around doors ect. So maybe a closet, the hall, or the Control room could function as an exchange chamber.
I had thought I read that pulling in air from the garage was less than ideal, which is why I thought of pushing my stale air out there.
I had also been wondering if maybe I was going overboard on the heating/cooling/ventilation of this small 150ish sq ft. space and maybe I should just redirect one (or both) of the ducts feeding the dining room above and use them to heat and cool my drum room. If I build the inside out ceiling, I can always take down a panel and put the ducting back in place (for the dining room) if I need to sell the house. My concern in doing that, however, is losing a lot of isolation between the floors through the duct work.
Also, there is plenty of space in the basement that I could pull air from a ventilation fan, but I was under the impression that fresh air needed to be brought in from outside?
kmetal, post: 456483, member: 37533 wrote:
ducting size depends on the unit, which depends on your requirements. Did you do the calculations rod describe in the HVAC chapter? the requirements need to be dfiened first, then you pick out the components, and do the runs.s
I did. I think I have this right.
90% of the time it's just going to be one devastatingly handsome fellow in that room playing drums. (that's me, by the way)
The guitar and bass amps won't factor then, so
354 watts for my own bad self and another 300 watts for lighting the 150 sqft space should be 564W x 3.4129 = 2055 BTU.
On the rare occasions that I have other people there jamming, I'd figure 3 people, with a guitar amp and bass amp:
3 people @ 354 = 1062 + bass amp (500) + guitar amp (350) + lighting (300) = 2212W x 3.4129 = 7549 BTU
so I'm figuring 2055 to 7549 BTU.
I think I read Rod say its better not to over spec your air conditioner because then it won't run long enough to deal with the humidity in the room, so I think I'd be looking at a 7000 BTU unit, assuming I can find one. I might have to overspec it and get a 9000?
As for CFMs, I think he wrote 15CFM per person, so I believe I am going to be at 15-45 CFM.
I will be honest, I'm not sure I understand how the CFM works in relation to duct sizes. If you could chime in and let me know what you think I need regarding duct sizes for the ventilation runs, that would be great.
kmetal, post: 456486, member: 37533 wrote: If you need inspirati
kmetal, post: 456486, member: 37533 wrote: If you need inspiration to 'do it right', or 'wait a bit more', let me know and ill send them over. I know at some point your will could be tested.
Hah. Yeah, I know I sometimes am tempted to hand-wave the stuff I have a tough time wrapping my head around.
But I know the first build that I did, did NOT have good ventilation.
Lets just say it was NOT a pleasant place to be on burrito night.
kmetal, post: 456483, member: 37533 wrote: It looked about half
kmetal, post: 456483, member: 37533 wrote: It looked about half the price of a comparable broan HRV, and is German designed, two good things in my book. What im not sure of, is if an HRV, and an AEV, and ERV, are interchangeable.
I have been looking into the AEV1000 a little more.
It's categorized under ERV systems. The manual for the unit states:
"A Air Exchangers (AEV) is designed to bring fresh air into a building while exhausting an equal amount of stale air. During the winter months, the incoming cold fresh air is warmed by utilizing the heat recovered from the stale air before it is exhausted to the outdoors. During summer months when the indoor space is air conditioned, the AEV will help in cooling the incoming fresh air with the stale air that is being exhausted. "
That sounds like what I want. Apparently, you can also attach a dehumidistat to the unit and it will cycle it higher to deal with humidity in the summer months.
Jason Morris, post: 456495, member: 51197 wrote: I had thought I
Jason Morris, post: 456495, member: 51197 wrote: I had thought I read that pulling in air from the garage was less than ideal, which is why I thought of pushing my stale air out there.
I had also been wondering if maybe I was going overboard on the heating/cooling/ventilation of this small 150ish sq ft. space and maybe I should just redirect one (or both) of the ducts feeding the dining room above and use them to heat and cool my drum room. If I build the inside out ceiling, I can always take down a panel and put the ducting back in place (for the dining room) if I need to sell the house. My concern in doing that, however, is losing a lot of isolation between the floors through the duct work.Also, there is plenty of space in the basement that I could pull air from a ventilation fan, but I was under the impression that fresh air needed to be brought in from outside?
Your garage isnt air tight, so it would be fresh air, it would be filtered during the exhange one way or another. Look at the illustrations in the book in the HVAC section. There is one where a mechanical room, is being used as an exhange chamber. your mechanical room is acessable under the stairs, and is a good spot for ducting possibly.
As far as re-directing the existing ducting, or branching off, your system can probably handle it. you'd use insulated rigid ducting, as large in diameter as you can fit. theres isolation clips to use to mount the ducting, physically decoupling the ducts. then you use the appropriate duct run, and number of turns, to maintain isolation. the also have short flexible sleeves to decouple the brach ducts. im not sure they are necessary. Rod doesnt use flexible ducting in his designs. im guessing its due to its horrible efficiency as a duct, relative to rigid.
to me its whatever offers the path of least resistance to do the job.
Jason Morris, post: 456495, member: 51197 wrote: I think I read Rod say its better not to over spec your air conditioner because then it won't run long enough to deal with the humidity in the room, so I think I'd be looking at a 7000 BTU unit, assuming I can find one. I might have to overspec it and get a 9000?
As for CFMs, I think he wrote 15CFM per person, so I believe I am going to be at 15-45 CFM.
I will be honest, I'm not sure I understand how the CFM works in relation to duct sizes. If you could chime in and let me know what you think I need regarding duct sizes for the ventilation runs, that would be great.
larger ducting moves more air volume, [cubic footage], than smaller ducting. The concept is you move large amounts of air, very slowly, or at low velocity 100-300fpm. you want the largest ducting you can fit, that your system is compatible with. This comes down to your systems capacity, fan speed, your requirements, which you calculated. Your Hvac guy should be able to give you precise specs and locations, based on your requirements.
With Hvac i find its alot of consideration and money (sometimes) for something thats not fun, but necessary. To me a mini/multi split, is the most economical, easiest thing to plan on, with the least variables, and low operating cost. they're easy to account for both in the physical layout, and financial side. sometimes a simple thru-wall unit does the trick. No matter what, whatever the method ends up, its best to handle it once, and forget about it. re-visiting hvac, or being uncomfortable, both ruin the studio.
Jason Morris, post: 456497, member: 51197 wrote: I have been looking into the AEV1000 a little more.
It's categorized under ERV systems. The manual for the unit states:"A Air Exchangers (AEV) is designed to bring fresh air into a building while exhausting an equal amount of stale air. During the winter months, the incoming cold fresh air is warmed by utilizing the heat recovered from the stale air before it is exhausted to the outdoors. During summer months when the indoor space is air conditioned, the AEV will help in cooling the incoming fresh air with the stale air that is being exhausted. "
That sounds like what I want. Apparently, you can also attach a dehumidistat to the unit and it will cycle it higher to deal with humidity in the summer months.
sounds like it to me. im still curious about the technical differences among the names, if any. ill look it up when i get a sec.
also i havent broken open the graphic design stuff, so i haven't marked your drawings yet, about that wall near the closet. ive had some things to handle that came along with the new house, so ive been low on time.
once you know your options, id get someone who's familiar with studio Hvac, like rod, to draw it up or verify. particularly, if ducting is involved. its worth some of their time to avoid unpleasent surprises imho.
what would be the finished ceiling height if you did a 2x6 frame, and didnt move the wires, ie ran the 2x's under them?
kmetal, post: 456500, member: 37533 wrote: what would be the fin
kmetal, post: 456500, member: 37533 wrote: what would be the finished ceiling height if you did a 2x6 frame, and didnt move the wires, ie ran the 2x's under them?
7'10 1/8" WITHOUT any absorption on the ceiling.
I think my inside out ceiling idea gains me about 5 inches.
kmetal, post: 456500, member: 37533 wrote: your mechanical room
kmetal, post: 456500, member: 37533 wrote: your mechanical room is acessable under the stairs, and is a good spot for ducting possibly.
Yep. I have a closet between the mechanical room and my drum room. I was thinking I could build a silencer box, stick it in the closet and run either the inlet or exhaust vent from that location, and the other end would be in a silencer box built above the water main. The door to access the water main would be below the silencer box / vent. And then I could stick the ERV unit in the mechanical room with the other stuff.
kmetal, post: 456500, member: 37533 wrote: As far as re-directing the existing ducting, or branching off, your system can probably handle it. you'd use insulated rigid ducting, as large in diameter as you can fit
I have about 6 inches in my existing joists, after I beefed up the subfloor with two layers of drywall.
kmetal, post: 456500, member: 37533 wrote: To me a mini/multi split, is the most economical, easiest thing to plan on, with the least variables, and low operating cost.
Yeah I like the mini split for a few reasons. One is that it's an easier sell for the wife. I think she wants additional cooling for the top floor of our house. For whatever reason, the bedrooms up there were crazy hot last summer. Now that I am saying that, it dawns on me that maybe I shouldn't be tapping into an HVAC system that hasn't been performing very well for the rest of the house. I think I'm back to the Mini-Split and the AEV1000.
So, I'm still delving down the HVAC rabbit hole. I think I have
So, I'm still delving down the HVAC rabbit hole. I think I have a little more understanding of certain things.. But to be honest there are so many variables floating around that I get a little lost in all of it.
The past day or so, I have been trying to figure out what I want to do about silencers.
As I think I mentioned, isolation is very important to me. I am shooting for 60db, and want to do whatever I can to hit that target.
I read on John Sayer's forum that in order to get really good isolation, Im better of putting a silencer on each leaf penetration.
But because of the lack of space in my drum room, I have very minimal area between my leafs for silencers.
So I am thinking about options.
One option is building a small silencer that can fit between the existing ceiling joists. That would put me at roughly 14" x 7 1/2" x 3' or so (i could go longer if I wanted)..
I could only feed that with a 4" duct (12.56 sq in.. I think) . The channels in the silencer would be 4x4 (16 sq in), and it would come out the vent at 4 x 8" (32 sq in).
I think that fits the requirements for doubling the cross section at the output of the silencer.
I guess my question is.. am I starting off with too small of a duct to begin with? I have seen other posts where people with similar spaces to mine had used 4" duct.. but that doesn't mean they did it correctly.
What do you think?
Jason Morris, post: 456573, member: 51197 wrote: But to be hones
Jason Morris, post: 456573, member: 51197 wrote: But to be honest there are so many variables floating around that I get a little lost in all of it.
Its easy to get dizzy, especially since all the variables depend on each other. Thats one reason why you'll find me referring to rod/the book so often. simply because ive used his methods, know what to expect, and i know they work. so it takes alot of variables out.
Last i remember HVAC you were saying you thought a ductless mini was the way to go, since your existing A/C wasn't cooling the upper floor very well. it made sense for the studio's systems to be independent, for for civil reasons, and for ease of installation, since modifying existing things can be troublesome from a construction POV, and practical one, since its not currently working to a satisfactory level. add sweaty drummer in airtight room to the equation, and who knows. The other consideration in your case, is that it may be cheaper to add a couple $200-400 blowers to the upstairs rooms, and hook them up to your multi split. Most multis handle between 3-5 blowers depending on the BTU's of the condenser unit.
the difference in price between a multi split system, and single blower mini split system, base cost isn't a whole lot different. Multi splits start to smoke mini's as soon as more than one room is involved from a cost vs benefit stance.
Silencers aren't necessary in every design. if your using ducting, you want to incorporate 90 degree turns in it, so sound has a difficult time propagating. basically what that silencer box does. If ducting size is your issue, you just box in the ducts. usually thats what the wall/ceiling junction is used for, as well as bass trapping.
now with that said, beyond basic needs, and budget requirements, the HVAC details like box locations, ect, aren't ready to be dealt with. basically you've got to make a call as to what type of system your going to use, specially if ducting is involved. Multi split, or modified existing. once that is weighed up generally, cost vs benefit, thats what you plan for in the rest of the plans. I personally like the Daiken systems, and my cousins multi, is working flawlessly, in the studio, and other main rooms of the house, going on 5 years now. The installers didnt balance the load properly at the panel, so we had to address some noises that weren't there previously, as the A/c was installed after the studio was built. (live and learn from your first try).
anyway, considering how unobtrusive the retro-fit was, very unobtrusive (couple small holes, and flexible tubing.) i have no doubts its the simpler way to go for most studios. They are reliable, predictable, quiet, hugely energy efficient, easy/cheap to expand to capacity, and doesn't have complicated zoning, duct routing, and space requirements that a ducted system does. To be honest, i cant see any good reason to try and modify, zone, duct, and spec out, your existing system. a simple btu calc based on your rooms sizes, and you select your blowers and condenser. thats literally it. Zoning and Ducting, are not concerns with this type of system.
Overall, first variable to eliminate is the floor plan, and layout. thats most important. that determines where your wiring runs needs to be, your lighting, and your acoustic treatments. all those depend on the floor plan. then the actual Hvac runs/plan will be incorporated into it, once that is settled.
Think or bass traps and the 'acoustical treatment wall' as you locations to run stuff. they're only needs to be a couple penetrations thru the actual iso walls. most things can be hidden between the iso wall and acoustic treatment.
Normandy's HVAC is so quiet i can't hear it, even with my ear up to the gigantic air supply and return duct in the ceiling. dead balls silent. its also got huge ducting, im guessing 18-24" off hand, and a completely isolated electrical, so the lights don't dim when it kicks in, and there are no clicks or pops in the audio chain. the whole system is properly isolated and grounded, as well as plenty of electrical headroom, for consistent performance. It's downside is the extremely inefficient operating of the system, which costs several hundred dollars a month. granted the blower is from the 70's, before energy star ratings.
Guess what kind of system Tony, the owner had me spec out for him, after our first summer there? yup. multi split. So i hope that tells you something helpful as your sort the variables, and dependent relationships. its good to know your options, and make your mistakes on paper. eventually you'll feel informed enough to make a call your confident with.
to sum it up. i know the modified existing system CAN work, and i know the multi split WILL work. likely with far less effort, thought, and money, short term and long term. Theres like a 10 year warranty on the condenser, and 3 years on the blowers. blowers are easy to replace, they just hang on the wall like a picture, no holes, and are affordable (relative to A/c's in general.
Just fyi- 4" ducting would generally be way, way too small. That would require a high velocity blower, and be noisy.
lol maybe ill go sell Multi Splits if i get sick of the music biz.
Hey Kyle, Thanks again for chiming in. Yeah, I didn't mean to i
Hey Kyle,
Thanks again for chiming in. Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that I had changed my mind from a split HVAC system. I'm still planning to go that route.
When I am talking about ducting I am speaking only about the fresh-air supply/return for whatever HRV/ERV/AEV I end up going with.
I was really just trying to come up with the best way to hide these potential silencer boxes inside the leaves, so that they won't take up any of my precious square footage in the room itself.
ANd my biggest concern is with cutting holes in my walls and letting sound leak OUT, ruining the isolation of my walls.
kmetal, post: 456596, member: 37533 wrote: If ducting size is your issue, you just box in the ducts. usually thats what the wall/ceiling junction is used for, as well as bass trapping.
Yep, I have come to the conclusion that a soffit or two is just going to have to be used, and it won't be the end of the world.
I am still a little unsure of what I need for CFMs for my room.
Rod's book gives as a 'rule of thumb' 15 CFM per person.
90% of the time its just going to be me, but maybe once in a while, I will have 2 - 3 other people in the room, so 1-4 people would be 15 - 60 CFM.
That's easy, and the cheapest AEV should more than handle that.
But then I read other posts where it is suggested that I need 10-12 air changes per hour.
So, if I am doing the math right, 1119 Cubic Feet * 10 air changes per hour = 11190 Cubit Feet per hour. Divide that by 60 and I get 186.5 CFM.
That is a considerably more costly air exchanger unit.
But then I ALSO read that only some portion of those 10-12 air changes per hour need to be FRESH ( I think it was 2 ).. which leads me to believe that this 10-12 changes per hour stuff I was reading was when doing a traditional HVAC system, and wouldn't necessarily apply when doing a mini-split and an AiR Exchange unit.. in my case ALL of the air I brought in would be fresh air right? So if 100% of the air I bring in is fresh, do I really need 10-12 per hour?
So do I just go with Rods rule of thumb (which is what I want to do, as its way easier) or do I try to figure out how to get 10 Air changes per hour into this tiny room? I mean, I breathe a lot, but I cant believe I breathe 11190 cu feet of air every hour. :D
See.. this is me going down the rabbit hole again. Have I mentioned that I tend to be an "over-thinker"?
Jason Morris, post: 456599, member: 51197 wrote: Thanks again fo
Jason Morris, post: 456599, member: 51197 wrote: Thanks again for chiming in. Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that I had changed my mind from a split HVAC system. I'm still planning to go that route.
When I am talking about ducting I am speaking only about the fresh-air supply/return for whatever HRV/ERV/AEV I end up going with.I was really just trying to come up with the best way to hide these potential silencer boxes inside the leaves, so that they won't take up any of my precious square footage in the room itself.
ok cool. are you positive you need silencer boxes? i don't remember rod mentioning me needing one for the home theater build when i spoke with him, but its possible i have forgotten, or missed it.
Jason Morris, post: 456599, member: 51197 wrote: I am still a little unsure of what I need for CFMs for my room.
this is essential. i used a free app for my phone and it gave me info based on the room size. i think diaken had one, im not sure, its been a while, there is a bunch of free ones. you can also call someone at an HVAC company who sells the multi split system your interested in, and they'll help you size it. the sound isolation and activity levels, as well as noise, are the main concern of the studio. not to keep brand naming, but Diaken had the most options of blowers, and the best sound ratings, and efficiency ratings of all the major brands that i checked. best or right up there in each category. i checked mitibishi, and some brand with an F i csnmt remember msybe fujitsu and friedrich. Daiken cuz its swiss designed (i believe).
Jason Morris, post: 456599, member: 51197 wrote: Rod's book gives as a 'rule of thumb' 15 CFM per person.
90% of the time its just going to be me, but maybe once in a while, I will have 2 - 3 other people in the room, so 1-4 people would be 15 - 60 CFM.
That's easy, and the cheapest AEV should more than handle that.
Rod has never been wrong to my knowledge with anything stated in the book. just follow along each section, it can seem to be alot, and the details matter, but its fairly straightforward and easy to follow a bit at a time. Again, HVAC is my weakest area of knowledge regarding studio building and design, i just havent had to deal with it much in my experiences as i said in earlier posts. im always happy to learn as much as possible.
Jason Morris, post: 456599, member: 51197 wrote: I tend to be an "over-thinker"?
its only over-thinking if you are under-achieving as well.
I haven't forgotten about this place! :D I'm still working on th
I haven't forgotten about this place! :D
I'm still working on things slowly but surely. Man some of this stuff takes a long time. The process of beefing up the existing structure, moving what I can, cutting around and caulking the things I cant move.
It takes forever. I can't wait to finally get around to building a freaking wall. :/
I ordered a pair of MOTU AVB interfaces for testing out the audio-over-ip stuff.
Since about 90+% of my recording is just me recording my own stuff, having the preamps in the recording area with me is appealing.
I'm also intrigued by the idea of just running a few cat6 cables rather than a whole snake and then soldering the connectors to each end.
I'm not sold on the AVB stuff yet, and if it doesn't work out, its back to Sweetwater with the stuff, but the idea is too good to not at least try.
Has anyone here successfully wired up a studio with just cat5/ cat6?
Audio over ethernet seems to be the next best thing. The bandwit
Audio over ethernet seems to be the next best thing. The bandwith permit so many connexion and control that it will be a good choice in the future.
If it's ready now is a good question.. Please keep us inform of your progress. It's always good to be informed of tech developpement ;)
Jason Morris, post: 458089, member: 51197 wrote: I'm also intrig
Jason Morris, post: 458089, member: 51197 wrote: I'm also intrigued by the idea of just running a few cat6 cables rather than a whole snake and then soldering the connectors to each end.
if you use a pre-soldered snake (like a store bought one) you can tape the ends of the wires/connctors to the snake so they'll fit through a smaller hole than they would otherwise. cut and solder is better, but thats a decent workaround ive used.
Jason Morris, post: 458089, member: 51197 wrote: I haven't forgotten about this place! :D
I'm still working on things slowly but surely. Man some of this stuff takes a long time. The process of beefing up the existing structure, moving what I can, cutting around and caulking the things I cant move.
It takes forever. I can't wait to finally get around to building a freaking wall. :/
awesome! your perseverance is commendable! these are the things that make it work well, and the days that you feel extra satisfied about when your jamming out!
Jason Morris, post: 458089, member: 51197 wrote: Has anyone here successfully wired up a studio with just cat5/ cat6?
not yet. im on that bandwagon though. cat cabling is going to undoubtedly be part of, or all of the future of a/v wiring.
Jason Morris, post: 458089, member: 51197 wrote: I'm not sold on the AVB stuff yet, and if it doesn't work out, its back to Sweetwater with the stuff, but the idea is too good to not at least try.
its a tough call. Dante is arguably more well supported [future compatible], but AVB does video. either way, MOTU makes decent stuff, and my experience with it (about 3 years) is its very reliable. im hoping to see some sort of unified Dante/AVB agreement or format, which would make things easier for customers and designers alike. Congrats on your new purchase and for your hard work. much respect sir.
OK, so in the process of beefing up my subfloor/ceiling, I dealt
OK, so in the process of beefing up my subfloor/ceiling, I dealt with a couple of ducts that feed the dining room above my recording space..
I ended up ripping out the 6 inch flex duct and put in 2x12 rectagular duct.
So above my head from top to bottom I have
3/4" Flooring
3/4" Plywood
2 layers of 5/8 Drwall
1" duct liner
Yes, I used duct liner on the OUTSIDE. I know thats not the right use of it, but it was what I had on hand, and it did what I wanted, which was to give the ducts something to 'squish' into .I wasn't sure how else to deal with the ducts as the bands that join them together make them irregular. They would not sit tight against the drywall.
2x12 duct
1" duct line
2 more layers of 5/8 Drywall
Battened into place with 1x2
Acoustic caulked gaps.
This only exists on two bays. The rest of the bays are just 2 layers of 5/8 drywall as typical.
In order to preserve my ceiling height, I got a bit creative with the line that feeds one of those bays.
I used a 2x12 section, turned sideways, then frankesteined some ductwork to create an elbow that would join up properly.
Everything is taped up and sealed, and it is passing air to the room just fine.
Now that I have completed my epic preamble, I can get to the point.
What is the best way to build the inner leaf wall around that section of 2x12 that I turned sideways?
I can just build inside-out like I have done with the other walls, and pull that wall away from the duct by a half inch or so, but thats going to make the already small room even smaller.
OR maybe build a 'normal' wall, but use 2x6 (or 2x8 maybe?), and notch around the duct?
Attached files 
Nice work. Fwiw, duct liner can be used on the interior or exter
Nice work. Fwiw, duct liner can be used on the interior or exterior of the duct, with equally good results, assuming everything else is proper.
I'm in a rush right now, I'll take a look at your pics and question when I have a minute. One way or the other you just want to outline the duct with the new frames, maintaining the airspace. Wether it's a nottched header, or "chase frame" hanging diwn from the ceiling from isolation clips/channel, the idea is the same with regard to physical decoupling. In rods book there is an illustration of a Chase frame boxing out a beam, and I believe one showing a protruding duct in the airlock. It's definitely in there because his plan in the book called for perimeter ducting all over the place.
Gotta run. I'll check back ASAP.
Great work.
I would just build a soffit/Chase frame around the duct. Attach
I would just build a soffit/Chase frame around the duct. Attach one side to the ceiling with iso clips, or channel, and then the bottom I part to the wall. Basically just outlining the duct with the continuous iso assembly. I'd space it off the duct 1" just to compensate for bowed framing members.
@Jason Morris @kmetal Lol. I didn’t understand much of what yo
@Jason Morris kmetal
Lol. I didn’t understand much of what you and Kyle have been discussing; I’m definitely NOT the guy you want weighing in on this project.
Anytime I ever had any need for any studio construction ( back in the 80’s/90’s, having control rooms built, ISO rooms, etc.) I always hired a pro to handle it. I figured I had enough on my plate just getting the kick drum and the lead vocal to sit right in a mix... LOL
But I’ve been following the topic, and I do find it interesting.
Just a thought... have you considered sending Rod Gervais an email? ( No offense intended, Kyle... you’re far more knowledgeable than I am on this subject, just presenting Rod as a possible option). Rod’s book is like The Bible of home studio construction. In my own experience, he has always been friendly, and approachable - at least for those who have his book... I’m guessing that maybe that’s because if you have it, it’s easier for him to point you in the directions needed for reference? And, in all fairness, it shouldn’t be expected that he give info away for nothing, especially when his book is so affordable and contains everything you need to know to build a real studio at home. .
Anyway...Just a thought.
Though I have to say that David and Kyle both seem to have a pretty serious handle on it, too. ;)
@Jason Morris @kmetal I don’t know why my last post was delete
@Jason Morris kmetal
I don’t know why my last post was deleted... but I’m sure it was simply due to error on my part, and my inability to get my fat fingers to type properly on an iPhone. ;)
In the deleted post, I was just mentioning that both You and Kyle seem to be well-informed on this subject... certainly more than I could ever hope ( or even want) to be.
I had offered the suggestion that you may want to send an email to Rod Gervais, who’s book on Home Studio Construction seems to have become the de facto “bible” on the subject.
To my knowledge, Rod has always been friendly and approachable for those who own his book and who may still have questions. Owning his book may also make it easier for him to point you in the direction of reference to help answer your question(s)...
That said, both You and Kyle seem to have a pretty good grasp on the intricacies of the subject.
I’m following this thread not because I have any future plans to build another commercial recording studio in my life ( 3 studios between ‘85 and ‘04 were more than enough for me, LOL), but because I do find the subject to be interesting reading... now... how much of what I am reading here that I actually comprehend is another subject entirely. ;)
Jason Morris, post: 458089, member: 51197 wrote: I'm also intrig
Jason Morris, post: 458089, member: 51197 wrote: I'm also intrigued by the idea of just running a few cat6 cables rather than a whole snake and then soldering the connectors to each end.
I'm not sold on the AVB stuff yet, and if it doesn't work out, its back to Sweetwater with the stuff, but the idea is too good to not at least try.
Has anyone here successfully wired up a studio with just cat5/ cat6?
You're not suggesting soldering XLR connectors to the Cat 6 for analog audio are you? There are several reasons that's probably not a great idea, however, there are numerous converters you can get to properly transform 4 channels of analog audio to a single Cat5/6 cable- and they work quite well. The Cat5/6 cable has to be shielded if you need to pass phantom power through it. I've used a couple different brands [ ETS InstaSnake / EliteCore ] on installations and they've worked very well for their given application. I haven't used one, but Whirlwind makes a nice looking version with both male and female XLRs for each channel so you can mix and match sends and returns easily. You can order the EliteCore with a variety of connector combinations. But if you're not adverse to soldering (and it doesn't seem like you are), you can always change XLR gender or add TRS connectors as needed.
AVB works fine and supports up to 192kHz 32-bit. DANTE is probably available on more high-end gear though.
kmetal, post: 459582, member: 37533 wrote: My question is about
kmetal, post: 459582, member: 37533 wrote: My question is about what the final decision is for the ceiling assembly, as I don't recall off hand, and an too lazy to fish thru the 4 pages of this thread.
I am doing an inside-out ceiling.
dvdhawk, post: 459587, member: 36047 wrote: You're not suggesting soldering XLR connectors to the Cat 6 for analog audio are you?
Oh no way! I have a pair of AVB interfaces that I have been using! Only drag is that if I want to change interfaces, I need to buy into either more AVB or Dante.
The way things are laid out in my studio and the finished portion of my basement, it wouldn't be the end of the world if I have to bring a snake in down the road, but who knows where things will be in a few years.
Maybe AVB or Dante will be more ubiquitous then. Or maybe I will have moved out and will be on my next studio build. :D
kmetal, post: 459635, member: 37533 wrote: Are you doing it inde
kmetal, post: 459635, member: 37533 wrote: Are you doing it independently framed- resting on the wall headers, or mounting it with isolation clips/channel/suspension.?
Independently framed. The new joists will be 2x6, and will be about 1/2" away from the existing joists, running perpendicular to them.
Jason Morris, post: 459636, member: 51197 wrote: Independently f
Jason Morris, post: 459636, member: 51197 wrote: Independently framed. The new joists will be 2x6, and will be about 1/2" away from the existing joists, running perpendicular to them.
Very good sir. You may want to plan on 3/4" or tbe standard 1" airspace to account for bows in the wood, deflection (bending) under load, and vibrations from rock and roll. Imho
I'm curious why your running perpendicular to the existing joists, instead of parelell, and tucking them in the bays of the existing ceiling as rod depicts in the book. This could save you nearly three entire width of the joist in ceiling height.
Forgive my fried brain, ive been comoaring computer chip and ram performance, and motherboard specs for a month straight.
DonnyThompson, post: 456343, member: 46114 wrote: Hi guys... I'm
Come on D, you know i always value your thoughts, on any topic. You bring up a very valid point. The three studios i did in commercial buildings, all had asbestos. I opened up an interior wall once, and saw daylight, via the large hole in the brick buildings outer wall. nobody noticed it since there was a bunch of junk covering it, and it was sort of facing an alley. There's so many potential traps on the used market.
the way i see it, the iso wall is already there, its just too far off the foundation. the wall in front of the sump pump can be modified easisly enough, so nothings 'added', it can even be moved around. attach it back with a couple iso clips, and done.
ah so you know what your up against, and are crazy enough to go at it again! nice. My first build is the only one that has mistakes that weren't fixed. the rest, if their were mistakes, they got fixed during the build. i had to dis-assemble a booth, and re-build it properly, ect. Planning is everything with these things. Execution of the plan, is everything else. Its cool that you have the experience of that first build, so you'll be able to dial this new one even better.
okay that makes sense. it still seems more complicated than the ceiling needs to be for this application, but thats just my opinion. If you do the Rusc-1 clips, you could handle 3x 5/8's layers, w GG. that to me seems easier than an inside out, if those worse are and issue. Other than that, the basic independently framed ceiling still seems to me, to be the best. especially since the Clips/Channel system isnt very effective for impact noise, like kids stamping their feet, or pet nails.