Let's hear it? !!

On the contest side: I always love a contest however...

I know I could get sponsors (nice gear, good mics, very good DAW software and possibly supporting software) but I don't know if I'd ever want to judge something like this ever again, or, to have the time to devote as the return investment, the outcome is never worth the time and rash back at you.

I've participated in many, which have been a variety of moderate to high profile, specifically to learn how I could improve them here, and they all got weird and nasty somewhere towards the end.
The most relieving part about all these contests, they are extremely subjective to the judges time and overall public monitoring systems.
No one can agree, no one is convinced and anyone listening from the outside in, is only skimming the few in passing.
Its one big critical quagmire.

The more people you get, the more trouble it all becomes.

Best way to do these. The artist, band, record company, property owner , hosts it, judges it, rewards it.

bleed isn't bad. and what sounds bad to you might sound good to someone else. perhaps the drummer liked his drums to sound like that? drummers can be very obnoxous and like thing that overwhelm a mix. like one of those klangy hi tuned snares that go whang! whang! whang! whang! drummers should die!

Yup!

Sent from my iPhone

I dislike gates for recording but love them live. Gated drums always sound like isolated bad of louder and clearer.

I know they are very useful but I cannot remember the last time I used gates in mixing. If they are that bad, I get rid of the source all together.

Sent from my iPhone

John, I would love to hear your Vox without the vocal rider.

I'll give you a tip here. The difference between real and lust is when you don't use anything that shaves off the edges of real acoustic source. I mean, all instruments including vocals. The reason music sounds so bad to my ears , today, is because we are using plug-ins that shave all the lush and real away, thus, leaving a sampled version of the original. You don't here this but I do. People that know the difference know what I am talking about. When you mix a song that has been raped like this, the result is a wall of noise. I could go on and on but the point is:

If you really want to step up your game, try producing a song with as little Waves processing in it.

FWIW, everyone gets used to our sound and this is often coverups to our own insecurity that would actually sound great had they been left natural. None of us like our own vocals. Well, most. We are our own worst enemy. Trust me on this.

Please do me a favour and produce something as clean and natural as you can and send it to me. Maybe an acoustic guitar, bass and vox track. Something simple.
Do you have something like this?

I don't, but I will work on something this week. You mean of me performing, or other folks?

( hopefully I can demonstrate what I am thinking) hearing is believing).
I think you would benefit the most but could be someone else you are tracking. Something simple :) or something busy but without any digital processing. Don't use anything digital going in ( Like an Apollo for example) or anything digital in the mix. Nothing!

Do you use the vocal rider all the time ( for you or the talent)?

Anything simple that you are sonically familiar with would do. Track it around -18. Line it all up and send it to me. No gates, nothing.

DropBox still?
I would like to show you what I mean regarding openness from the result of less plug-in processing.

audiokid; please check your PM. I can't post it publicly yet. These are raw tracks as I rec'd them

I use the vocal rider all the time. (not on these raw tracks)

Thanks!
-Johntodd

cool

OK, the main reason I do a lot of drum processing is to get that 'heavy metal' sound. It isnt a natural drum sound from what I gather, it's mostly compreesion, EQ, and ambiance. How do you guys get that sound without a lot of processing?

Electronic Drums kill for that. They are deep and processed, ready to go. For that type of music, acoustic drums suck imho. Also, I use active pickup on my axe. Metal to me is all about attitude and excessive attitude. Wide sides, dead center kick, snare, vocals. BIG.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.soundons…"]Mixing Metal[/]="http://www.soundons…"]Mixing Metal[/]

well its mostly samples depending on what kind of metal we're talking about. Metal is as a generalization "'over the top' 'pushing it' 'no holds barred...'" some people's idea of metal is black sabbath, zepplin, and deep purple, which has for better, or worse, natural drum sounds. (better imho). hair metal, i dunno, maybe a sampled kick/ snare, and maybe, a natural huge room sound. Modern metal. drummer hits pancakes and triggers sounds. probably not much of a room sound, other than for breakdowns or effect, if you notice the 'room' it's probably a bit too much, just a constant sense of a space is all.

i'm in the middle of tracking a death metal project now, fortunately w/ a decent drummer, and he has double kick drums, an excessive amount of cymbals, and a really really nice tight punchy high pitched snare (picture a 'fat' piccolo sound). He uses an alesis drum module, and DDrum triggers for the kick (the red ones).

i'm old/new school so mic'd the kicks anyway, got a bit of thud outa them, i recorded the sample/trigger track, now i'm covered. i can use drumagogg and pick perhaps better samples if i need too, and i still have some semblance of a real performance in time w/ the kick mics, which really are just a touch of low thud.

there is just no other way to have a modern style metal drum sound stand up to the rest of the modern (re-amp/amp sim) sound than to use samples. Kiks almost always need to be sampled in modern metal, i hate the sampled snare sound, so i avoid complete replacement unless i have too. in this current project, i'm going to try to not even have to layer it. keeping the OH mic(s) mellow w/ the cymbals is huge too, the brash sounds don't have a lot of room to exist w/ all the other instruments.

as far as eq compression, we had like 15 db of 3k/10k combined on the snare, a few db of comp, and a solid 5-6db of 10k on the kick. room has some low cut, OH just have a nice pre/mic combo. on they way in. the sample has like a 12db boost at 10k in the monitor mix to have the familiar click sound pop thru.

man i really can't wait for people to start asking me to make their records sound like old slayer, or death, instead of the new lamb of god, or any other major label metal record. (ps i love L.O.G, and even their processed sounding records sounded good till they took it too far).

so imho, there is no way to make a competitive 'modern metal' sounding record w/ out heavy processing, and sampling on the drums. it'd be like making an un-processed pop song of the week. i just do as much as i can on the way in, eq compression micing whatever, and take it from there. then have the inevitable quandry w/ the guitarists about why gain needs to be dialed back to sound like "them" on the record. they never believe, so i always, split the signal, either to another amp, or a DI, which i did in this current case. when i got the call today "my guitar is so scratchy, we paid all this, i don't wanna have to re-do it", well ya don't, i took out an insurance policy known as a DI box, cuz you wouldn't believe me until you heard it.

no matter what genre, the principles things seem to hold true, crap in crap out. phase coherency. it's just like in metal you'd probably want to boost 10k in the kick, for beater attack/cut, in pop maybe more like 3-5 to get that puck puck type sound. but drum tuning is huge. so is the damn drummer, i'll have to put together a little minute clip of like 5 different drummers, on the studio house kit, w/ the same mics, and same general mix, it's a remarkable difference.

sorry to ramble, you've probably been shredding since before i picked up a guitar, but i figured i'd share my current experience, as it seems to be relevant.

i didn't read the above link yet, i wanted to say my bs before hand, reading it now. :)

i actually read the print version when i used to subscribe. the one thing i tend to do a little different than the majority of the info i've read is not always just HPF, instead use more of a low shelving eq. waves isn't coming to me asking for a signature bundle, but w/ low tuned gtrs, synths, maybe attenuation is better than a complete cut. maybe not.

i'm not re inventing any wheels, this stuff just seems to work.

If I use drum replacement, am I obligated to tell the band? I don't like to give away my secrets that keep them comin' back.

there's no way the drummer won't know. better tell them up front. honesty best policy blah blah blah ....

Kurt Foster, post: 409012 wrote: there's no way the drummer won't know. better tell them up front. honesty best policy blah blah blah ....

Although I agree on the honesty, I also would include:

"For most popular music"
A good mixer , just as a good ME ( providing the tracking wasn't absolute crap ) , should be able to move through a mix without ever being noticed he/she was there.

I can , re-amp, replace and repair space and instruments like bass G, keyboards, a kick and snare most musicians or drummers would never question.
They would more likely say, wow, did you ever make my kit and the song sound better, what did you do.

Bad programming and mixing sounds like it was changed or programmed and that is what disbelievers remember .. If your mission is the final version of the project to be a success. Keep reading.

Most studios/ engineers never want to hear their work or room suffers so mixers never talk about this. Thus, the beauty of mixing engineers hidden secrets and what goes on behind closed doors. The cost for this isn't cheap. The magic happens in the mixing room and its not cheap.

I wouldn't be trying to convince anyone ahead of time.
I wouldn't be trying to fool anyone either. You will either pull it off with praise , be caught and slaughtered or look like a saint and no one will ask a thing. Everyone is professional, smiling because the end result is success.

JohnTodd, post: 408993 wrote: OK, the main reason I do a lot of drum processing is to get that 'heavy metal' sound. It isnt a natural drum sound from what I gather, it's mostly compreesion, EQ, and ambiance. How do you guys get that sound without a lot of processing?

Buy samples and forget that it's music that can be anything but an actual performance. It's your moral issue... not mine.

The main reason I don't (have to) do a lot of drum processing is because your player either brings their game, or they're just pissin' away my life... no thank you.
Again, I ain't bustin' anyone's arse, other than to say that it ain't my ears that are there... they're yours. You (or anyone reading this thread) are the poor sod who's gotta deal with what you gotta deal with.

Suk it up.

I'm an old fart who's been playing drums before man was ever on the moon. I've played everything from 12 piece kits to wood block, brake drums, clothes dryers with baseballs and tennis shoes rolling in em' to blocks of wood and trash cans.

Generally, anything that can be performed with/on is to be considered within the realm of possibility to be recorded. Note the key word... "PERFORMED".

I've had TONNES of guys hem, haw, whine, and gripe about having to "use samples" to make "metal drums" What that generally means is that frankly, you're not experienced enough with comps, gates, eq, gain structure and mixing to know how to achieve those "unique" drum sounds.

Excuse me... but someone had to make the samples originally... right? Where do you think they got the tones from?? From REAL kits.

So... how do you get those tones for kits??

Start with a properly knowledgeable drummer... cool.. you got that part... (You better hope so anyway)
Next, find the key of the song... if there is one.
What is the drum pattern? (I think there's 3... maybe 4?... yes, I'm cynical.)
Tune the drums that are prominent in the patters(s) to sit either directly IN the key, or 1 key above, or below. (preferably some of each is the kits big enough)
Mic it up
Hit the red button and pray you can last through the session.

As to how to mic them? It's like yer' underwear... it's up to ya'.... but I'd tend to mic them so that they sound like a metal kit to begin with.

Sometimes it's a single room mic... sometimes it's 12 mic's on a 3 piece cocktail kit.

The goal is to either end up with enough drum signal to determine where the sample goes, or to actually capture what your client is after.

The biggest tip I can give you is to use your ears to hear what you want, by eliminating that which you don't want.

Do I track with EQ/compression or gates? uhhh... not very often. But that's because I have a good room that makes using outboard gear for tracking something I don't worry about. But if I have to, I'll put 12EQ/ 12 compressors and 12 gates on a drum to get what I gotta have to make the producer/client happy.

Generally, you point the mic at the primary strike point of the drumhead. But maybe one particular drum sounds flabby, so point it closer to the ring... or back it up, or put it 1/4" above the head at a 90 deg angle... again, the key is to use your ears.

If I use drum replacement, am I obligated to tell the band? I don't like to give away my secrets that keep them comin' back.

if they like what they hear they will come back, samples or not. try to find a metal record made in the last 10 years that hasn't used samples. 'the sword''s 'gods of the earth' comes to mind, but they have a very vintage sounds anyway. there aren't many. nobody says you have to use samples, or full replacement.

usually they'll be a bit inconsistent w/ the feet, so a sample that has a a constant velocity layered underneath the tracked kick can help the bottom immensely, w/out losing the drummers 'own sound'.

you could also have the drummer do a few solid kick/snare hits at the beginning of the session, and load those as samples into something like slate's trigger, or drumagogg.

a satisfactory end result is usually more important to people than how it was achieved. but i usually ask people up front what there looking for do they want a snapshot of what they actually sound like, a spruced up demo, or something that sounds more like a finished ep. samples are kinda like the same 'offensive' word to some people as click track, where until they hear how good it can sound, they are somehow insulted, as if they are inadaquite musicians. well, sometimes they are, or maybe they just think good recordings just happen cuz there is an engineer, or just have higher expectations than they are capable of. but then you compare the song w/ and w/out and it usually speaks for itself.

oh yeah, all new batter heads! i'm sure u know this, but it hasn't been said yet.

Man, I love you Max! You have the greatest lines.

As to how to mic them? It's like yer' underwear... it's up to ya'.... but I'd tend to mic them so that they sound like a metal kit to begin with.

Perfect!

Excuse me... but someone had to make the samples originally... right? Where do you think they got the tones from?? From REAL kits.

Okay, shop talk here. All in fun, right? howdy

Max, this opinion is subjective to your idea of (real music vs many other creative processes). processes you likely have no interest in ever engaging. But that being said for shits and giggles.
There are many genre's outside our comfort or interests so we are wise to stay out of them. There are tonalities and electronics that go into the sound of a style.
If we aren't familiar with them, its like trying to make Frank Sinatra sing Tom Petty! Can you see him snapping his finger. hehe.

Frank Sinatra may sing like a pro but his sound isn't going to doing anything positive to a crushing Rock track with attitude in 2013. I know you get what I'm talking about. Lets get real here.

We may not like all this pop culture, but its here and its part of global fabric of music.

No studio in the world is capable of sounding like the Amsterdam Hall or turning an acoustic kick into an analog tone morphing to the tempo and key of a song.
To say you can make an acoustic kit sound like Electronic drums that were specifically requested by someone asking for that exact sound is absurd.
IMHO, there is way more to a recording studio than just setting up a set of drums and leaving it like that for every protect that comes through the door
Sometimes, this is just the start to the process of a very sophisticated production.

I'm not going to try and convince anyone that they should turn a grass roots folk song into some dance track. Or that a guy who likes recording local band should start thinking about adding kick # 421 to a local bar band doing a demo.
90% of all bands don't even know this is possible.
Its got to be right.
But I'm also not blind to the fact that just because it was recorded that way, is the best for the client. If we can improve something using modern processes over leaving something that will surely fail, I'm going to do it or suggest it, if I think its worth it and they can afford my skills.
Some people hate anything that sounds processed and some people hate the sound of the unprocessed.Some people don't even care just as long as it is what they are hoping it will turn out to be.

The idea of just because I did it that way, must remain that way left the building years ago. I'm 100% full steam ahead on making the best mix I can and using whatever is the best for project.

There is so much more to all this than traditional ways, especially if you want to open the doors to a wider client base. Guitars have a sound for blues,, so do kicks and snares have for other genre's. People that know the difference, are very very very fussy about what they want.

There are samples of kits that were recorded in beautiful rooms under condition you can not possibly ever reproduce in your studio (organically), You will need to do something more with it. If you don't, it will not pass. And I cannot say this enough, if you want to be blown away, the Bricasti is about as close to anything you could ever imagine.
I think we are really talking about two kinds of studios and ways of production.

To me, gates chop tails and do not remove other unwanted tonalities the moment it is open. As long as the gate is open, that room translates until it is closed , this compounds into every track . That might be good for your sound, but its not good for something that you want purer and bigger.

We will never make a kit sound like every flavour available,. To say this, is really naive or misleading.

I admire all old school tradition and believe me, I wholeheartedly agree from a purest POV but, I also know there are clients and styles I could never produce with this mindset. And this has kept me busy for years, paid my way when the future looked dim for extra things in my life. Had I not known these things, I know my career would not have been as full and rewarding.

For fun Max,or anyone for that matter within reason, if you ever want to experience what I mention , send me a session of something very simple and grass roots like and I guarantee what I send back would put money in your pocket.

You and I differ in so many ways... yet, we're essentially on the same wavelength... but that's what's so great about working in this industry... not to put a slam on the guys who are tinkerin', goofin', or weekend warrioring... But unless you really do derive the majority of your income from pushin' faders, you really are not part of this industry. You're merely just another paying client to participate in this industry.

I probably do come off being some kind of ludite when it comes to tracking/mixing and mastering... and I am... up to a point.

It's a philosophy that only someone who has actually experienced great live performances can appreciate, and only someone who's only mixed digital content can appreciate.... but all too damn few can see across the other side of. (And it's real simple to understand if you open your mind, ears and conscience to.)

There are essentially two types of music; Music AS performance entertainment and music for commercial sale.

They can cross boundaries and did so with the first multitrack recording and the first time an overdub was made... and will continue as long as sounds are arranged in any pattern that generates any type of emotion.

It's not MY integrity that is ever at question, in that I don't have a problem going either way... THAT judgement is for the producer and artist to determine and convey to me.

I've already stated my tracking philosophy, and when I mix, I take one of two different seats... am I the producer, or am I the engineer?

If I'm the engineer, which happens more often than not, my role is to interpret what the "guy in charge" (e.g. pahdoosa) wants... into what they can have. If the pahdoosa wants me to throw a kitchen sink at it, then it's my responsibility to throw the damn sink at it. This ain't rocket surgery kids. You do wtf you get paid to do... which is to turn this 4 hour babysitting gig into some dosh to keep the lights on and ramen noodles in the pantry.

If you work on commercials, you quickly find out, that a 30 second spot does NOT mean 29 seconds... it doesn't mean 31.2... it means 30.00 seconds. If you've got to have a marker beacon at 250mS from end, or 1.0 second heads and tails, that leave you with a producer who wants the cymbal crash at 17.86 seconds. Guess where I'm puttin' that cymbal crash?? ...and I'll cut, copy, paste, grid, quantize, synthesize, morph, and date your sister if I hafta', to make it work and fit. It doesn't make a rat's ass bit of difference to me. Just make sure you bring cash, or you'll not get your final files until I'm paid in full.

The other side of the tracks is where I fear you think I solely exist.

Look... I grew up where every gig I played, I was expected to be, and was compared quite often to Keith Moon, Charley Watts, John Bonham, Carl Palmer, Neil Peart, Jack DeJohnette, Billy Cobham, Ed Shaughnessy, Max Roach, Gene Krupa and that other slacker; Buddy somebody or another. So, I had to bring my game, every gig. You were EXPECTED to be good. You were EXPECTED to have a sound that was appropriate to the genre... and that went for your kit as well as your chops.

But I was exposed to so much more than just "modern music"... (yes, I know you were exposed to a lot of classical as well)... but I also learned to appreciate far more music than just "western hemisphere" culture. Historical importance dictates that there are MANY types, styles, genre's and tonal diversities of many cultures that are counter to "western music" as far as being "good".

One needed to have that understanding when synth's were first introduced... then punk... then rap, then hip hop... and now we're at the cornerstone of dubstep being the "new" pop music in the west... where it's actually quite a mature genre' in many other parts of the world.

At this stage in my life, I can damn well decide with whom I'm gonna share the precious moments I have on this earth. And I don't give a rats ass about what anyone else can do (or not do) to my tracks.

What I do is take to heart the reality that if you actually PLAY an instrument, your performances are utterly unique... in that the instant that the song is over.. it can NEVER be recreated as THAT performance... EVER. It's out there in the ether for all of eternity. It's the JOB of a recordist to capture as faithfully as is possible, each performance.

I have the ability to capture performances here, and gigging musicians are quickly discovering that I don't hafta sit in the producer's chair. I'm comfortable in the skin I'm in. You don't care for my mixes, or think you want to do your own? Go for it. You want to be your own tracking engineer as well? Fine by me. Just pay me for my time and/or the studio rate.

There's not much I can't, haven't or won't mix; rock, pop, hip-hop, rap, country, fusion, prog, celtic, Apache', dubstep, bluegrass, punk, folk, gospel, classical, big band, opera, ska, psycho-punk, metal and even spoken word. I've worked with the Casady Family (they did a an inspirational folk thing for Hospice patients) to the NC symphony and several dozen national and international acts, in my career. I've been on stage with "nobodies", "somebodies", posers, wankerz and wannabe's alike.

If you are a performer, I'll do my best (because you're paying me!) to deliver you whatever it is that you need... and I only really encourage younger musicians to come here if they are at their best when they perform in front of an audience. This isn't a studio for the non-musician, or the guys that don't use real instruments. It's a waste of their time and mine, as there's more gear here for tracking than probably a dozen or more home studios... and what I do "need" to charge is quite often more than the non-performing artist can typically afford.

After that, it's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out... then it's HYSTERICAL!

Agreed,
Love the stories, Max. Please never leave, man. Your journey has been delightful to follow.

But just in case you missed this, I am a musician first. I take guitar very serious , toured for 18 years solid seeing our country through the windows of a 54 passenger Blue Bird. Never saw home until I started a family 18 years later. Guitar in hand and 6 nights a week from arenas to smoky Blues clubs. Wierd hair and thin ties to T shirts and jeans. I know the road and live performance very well. Its a bitch trying to remember all the words.
I also come from a classical background. Mom sang with the Met, Dad was the President of a musical theater , it doesn't get more real than that.

I never stopped wondering how they get things to sound like that on records. Now I know.

smoke

Just passing it all on at this point in life.

Max, you are at a good point in life. Bless you. Nothing more fun than keeping it real.

Cheers!

audiokid, post: 409045 wrote: Just passing it all on at this point in life.

Max, you are at a good point in life. Bless you. Nothing more fun than keeping it real.

Cheers!

I dunno about a "good point in life"... because I have more days behind me, than I do in front me... and some days I feel every single one of those former days... but I can assure you I have more intensity devoted to these days I have left in front of me than I do for those behind me. Which is why I do not suffer fools lightly.

I'm not the greatest thing since sliced bread. I have my "secret" formulas for some things. And only those who are willing to actually work WITH me will find those "secrets" out... but for the most part, it's up to us old road dogs to teach the next generation (or so) what has been done in the past... Not so that they can keep doing the same thing... but so that they can add on to these experiences to make their own realities... whether they chose to do it like we did, or not.

Two recent gigs come to mind...

I get a call from a band... They want to "just do a demo"... a 5 song sampler for submission to festivals. They want to just come in and cut these snippets.

So, I suggest that they actually put their time to good use and track 5 full songs, and then pull 1 minute clips out for the demo. Then they would have the option to have a hundred or so CD's made to sell at gigs/online, etc.

When they arrive for the session, I confirm that they want as live of a sound as possible, with the overall sound and feel of a performance venue. They cut 3 songs top to bottom and 3 "sections" of songs. (hey, it's their time and their decision.)

They're happy with the sound, and all high on the results. They planned on a second mix/OD session to make any fixes, figure out the trim points, etc.

They guy who booked the session indicated he was the producer... and in the tracking and mix sessions, it became quite obvious that he is not... and that everyone in the band (all 6 of em') are the pahdoosah... (yee friggin' haw) with the guy who booked the session being an arrogant twit making the classic comment; "I can't tell you what's wrong, but I don't like it.".. AFTER the mix session.

The guitar player sends me an email that he can't work with another engineer, nor in another studio, but he's sure he can make it into what they want... which is a highly produced multitrack of OD's and on the grid.

Fine... pay me for the aggravation of consolidating the vocals and the few punches we did, and you can have the files... just to be rid of these goobers. Why do I call these guys goobers? Because they're hopelessly lost and don't have a prayer of getting their demo done at a level that's going to get them gigs. They're so closed minded and utterly confused as to what they came in for, their ultimate goal or how to convey what they think, know or feel about their own work. They're goobers because they pissed away two full days of my life that I could have tracked another group that has their stuff together that actually would have been enjoyable to work with... that or I could have spent my time better-working in my yard.

Don't get me wrong... they were a blast to work with as far as the tracking session went. I even got emails from two of the guys thanking me for making it so much fun that they forgot about the "pressure" of being in the studio.

Another group booked time, and came in with a vision of what they wanted as a final product. They wanted the core of the album to be tracked live, with a few OD's and embellishments to add the spit polish to the project... but they insisted that the body of work, again - at it's core, be able to be played live.

As we've been tracking, we've established the relationship that I AM co-producing this project... and this old man is pushing the hell out of em' to not over produce the thing... except where it's appropriate for the song. I've had them do some things that they initially thought were silly, or not gonna fit... only to discover that when something fits, it fits... and when it doesn't... to trim things out.

So, what exactly does this divergence mean when it comes to tracking drums?

In BOTH cases, it's the kit tone/mix that will make or break the work.

In the first case, they were insistent on it having more of a medium sized venue feel... so the drums were not focused, but blended in with the group and a focus on the three lead instruments and the vocals... being exactly what they requested and insisted upon... but contrary to what they thought they would get... because they don't know their own goals.

In the second case, the kit sound is more important than anything else in the song... and as such, they have 13 songs with about 13 different kits sounds.

So, what do these two have in common??

The kits were pretty much recorded in the same way with the only real differences being OH distances and tuning of the kits themselves... and the drummers themselves.

The first drummer is a "middle aged" cat with solid chops... but he's also the guy that's been playing >20 years, but can't tell me what it is he doesn't like.

The second drummer is a younger guy who actually has better chops, timing and feel... who knows when a snare is ringing a bit too much... or not enough... or when a lead break is a bit sloppy, or the bass is a touch flat. But his most important trait is that he's not married to a tone, or a philosophy... he's married to making a song stand on it's own performance... and you do what the producer says to make that happen... and yet, willing to stand up for something that doesn't work.

And as a producer, it makes me want to go that extra push to deliver these guys a final product they can be proud of, and make some money with to further their career.

But tracking drums in less than optimal environments is absolutely no different than tracking drums in my studio...

You put mic's up, open the channel and LISTEN.

Does it suck?

Yes?... FIX IT!
No?... Hit the red button!

So, how do you get rid of the suk?
Again... I'm not there... I can't hear what it is you're hearing, so unfortunately, you'll have to be the one to make that determination.
Too much ringing? dampen the drum. Not enough ring? Tighten the bottom head or the top head or both... or remove the tape... or put on new heads.... or back the mic away, or move it a 1/4" to the center... You gotta use your ears.

You can ask all he questions you want... and you should be asking questions... Hell, I have questions almost every single time I sit down to work in the studio... but experience is the only way to really figure this stuff out and get to a point that your questions are specific enough to get real answers to them.

So... The best way to record drums in a less than ideal situation?

Suk it up, use your ears and listen...

another suggestion...You may also want to experiment with tuning the kit - primarily the toms - to intervals close to the tonic key of the song itself.

Drummers like Earl Palmer, Hal Blaine and others would sometimes take the time to re tune their kits to these intervals - not that you'll get a "pure tone" as far as hitting an actual C, because the complex overtones and multi timbral nature involved in drums makes this tough, but if you are working with great drums and very nice, new, fresh heads, you can get close by listening and tuning around the rim near each lug.

Now, it's important that you have a very nicely built kit for this. You're not going to get this kind of response from a budget cheap wood or chrome kit.

Also, this method works best with coated heads (ambassadors, etc) as opposed to pin stripe/hydraulic types where overtones are diminished, and it can lend a very neat sense of tonal texture to the track. Now, you have to be sure that you are tuning within the natural restrictions of the head and related to the size as well, you don't want to tune outside the natural resonance of that particular drum... but give it a try sometime... you may be pleasantly surprised. ;)

d.

DonnyThompson, post: 409091 wrote: Also, this method works best with coated heads (ambassadors, etc) as opposed to pin stripe/hydraulic types where overtones are diminished, and it can lend a very neat sense of tonal texture to the track. Now, you have to be sure that you are tuning within the natural restrictions of the head and related to the size as well, you don't want to tune outside the natural resonance of that particular drum... but give it a try sometime... you may be pleasantly surprised. ;)

d.

Coated heads for sure... but what I hear as the root drum sound in a lot of metal is often tuned just outside (usually a 1/4-1/3 harmonic above)... then the tonic and lower harmonics are added.

MadMax, post: 409133 wrote: Coated heads for sure... but what I hear as the root drum sound in a lot of metal is often tuned just outside (usually a 1/4-1/3 harmonic above)... then the tonic and lower harmonics are added.

As well as the occasional parallel track of some sort of distorted claptrap added to an unaffected snare or kick. If you have some sort of guitar related program that does the 'rectifier' thing that works.....

bouldersound, post: 408936 wrote: There's always a ton of phase mismatch of a transient sort, but very little of that matters when the signals are uncorrelated. It does matter when there are two versions of the same source/signal that have taken different routes to the recording system, and which are close enough in level. Inverting polarity may make phase error sound less bad but it cannot actually correct it. Time aligning might be the better option.

Time aligning drums is something I like to at least try, but you can really only do it with a coincident pair as overheads, otherwise you have two differing reference points. You can't align a close mic to two overheads at different distances, and if you don't align it to both there's really no point doing it. Generally I slide the overheads back to the kick first, since that's the biggest distance, and then align all the other close mics to the overheads. Nothing gets moved more than about 5ms. It's essential to check polarity as well while aligning. It's also not a bad idea to slide the whole kit to the right within that 5ms window to see if it locks up with the other instruments better. And if it doesn't sound better than the unaligned drums undo it all.

This is a VERY sound reason for "less is more". The fewer mics you wind up using the less the coherency problems. This is the main function of the 'Glyn Johns' technique.....also in use by a couple thousand other guys...but the basics with the drum stick measurements brings the phase coherency into the proper focus. Of course you can measure things all day and still **** it up....In this case the technique you would use will completely depend on the style of drumming and the relationship it has within the arrangement. Hopefully you're working with people that know these things are important. On the other hand, close micing with really 'stupid mics' aka: dynamics... will go a long way to keeping the room out of the equation and make the headaches stay away until the mix.

When you guys start talking 'drum sound replacement' or drumagog sounds....now don't get me wrong, these are tools and have a place.....but really, I gotta side with Max on this. Those samples came from somewhere. If you don't know how to make the drums sound like the drummer wants them to, then find a drummmer who knows how to make his kit sound like the way he wants it to right out of the box. Seriously.
Suppose you get a call from a songwriter who needs players for his convulsive bemoaning of all that life offers. Its a little bit country and a whole lot of Rock and Roll, so who do you call? A pure country picker with a custom Tele and a rack of processing through a large clean tube amp? Or a worn out classic rocker with one of those Line6 pieces or some new Marshall with DSP and lots of stories about "when I was a young'un we had stacks....."? Or a player who takes a good listen to the material and then puts down stuff suited for the project and makes each take a performance? Usually, these guys have a rig that is capable of producing the exact sounds needed, has the noise issues tamed, has something to SAY in their playing, and doesnt form an opinion or attachment to anything other than the task at hand. Its pretty easy to record these guys. Your favorite guitar mic in your favorite spot in the room, you're tried and true monitoring for the players, and comfort. So getting drums right is all about having a pro able to produce these sounds and you as an engineer simply capture whats there.

A LOT of the crap like Chris was referring to as far as poorly recorded tracks has a LOT to do with Max's take regarding bands or individuals who think they have a handle on what they want when in fact they really really don't. I have worked with young guys who talk the talk and know EVERYTHING about recording stuff there is to know but when they come in they bring gear that sounds like nothing they've described they want out of their tracks and they expect the studio to be able to change this like some magical kingdom into their treasured sound being generated in their head.

Sure sure....with the advent of the digital world we now live in, manipulation of anything into anything else is possible. Seriously. A person could beat out the drum parts with their fingertips on a piece of cardboard, record it and replace it with a library of noises. " Dude, I got this bichin kick sound off of a youtoob of a giraffe farting....."

So like the other old fartes here, I'm still all about the performance and not a comped track of different times of day. although the modern man in me struggling to get out thinks this is okay in certain company. Like if you're paying me to comp stuff then by gawd get out the cardboard squares and lets do the drums......

Not totally related to metal drum sounds... but, one of the reasons that we have "metal" drums and "jazz" drums and "country" drums, and "rock" drums, etc... is because necessity is a mutha'.

With all those shredding metal chainsaws and angry bee plank sounds, it's mighty cluttered in the range of frequencies that ears are most sensitive. Something needed to be done to make the drums punch through that wall of comb filtering and distortion. In country, kick drums aren't that important to cut through, but to support the bass and simply move the song along... and they do that due to the inherent open space in those frequencies, they have too much space... so they tend to be de-emphasized. For a good period of time, snares in rock were diminished because of the wall of guitars... and adding gated white noise helped the snare cut through and help drive the song.... along with big verbs.

Sure, you can buy samples to augment the metal kit... but geeze, guess what?? Your mixes will sound just like every other mix... and ain't that sumpin' to be proud of... you've achieved the level of sameness and mediocrity that pervades the marketplace.

If you're incapable of achieving the drum sound you want/need, and you're left with no choice but to augment... why not innovate and create your own sample library?

I've got tracks of wooden and cardboard boxes, cabinets, glasses, bottles, acoustic guitar bodies, tables, car doors, individual drums, metal bars, plastic jugs and door knocks that I can pull from. Why not snag a DI and make samples from synths, guitars or anything else you can think of/find to augment.

Transient too strong? Use a compressor with a fast attack... Try a compressor with a slow attack and fast release for a different solution... same with gates and eq.

Coming from recording things before time began I got a serious chuckle out of Max and the 'library' of sounds. I remember many tracks in the late 70's and the 80's where there would be a track open for simply laying something on the snare or the kick for clarity and style. Here's one we used a lot. Everyone did back then....

You take the output of your snare track into a DI of some sort...Today they call it reamping....(did we call it that? I dont remember) Anyway...one trick was to take that output into an amp of some kind. I used a Showman head. Run the amp into a speaker laying on its back. A single 12 or 15 works just fine. In fact you want a single speaker. Then you lay your snare drum on top of the speaker and even add a tambo to the top of it. Mic this snare and play the track through the speaker/amp setup. Blend this capture into your snare sound.

There was also the old tambo on the snare top with a side stick across it. Mic above and below and play along with the recorded track basically just hitting it on the 2 and 4.

Now days...its all in some library.....

Davedog, post: 409145 wrote: When you guys start talking 'drum sound replacement' or drumagog sounds....now don't get me wrong, these are tools and have a place.....but really, I gotta side with Max on this. Those samples came from somewhere. If you don't know how to make the drums sound like the drummer wants them to, then find a drummmer who knows how to make his kit sound like the way he wants it to right out of the box. Seriously.

I agree and disagree :)
Definitely agree about replacing bad. I mean, say someone is tracking drums in a closet, I get the mix and know anything replaced on this one is going to be a huge improvement. But, you still need to do that so it doesn't make the rest of the song sound out of place.

Depends on the goal.
This area of mixing I talk about is suitable for commercial, sophisticated productions and modern. Migrating a performance from the organic stage to a hybrid sound scape via replacement and sequencing has nothing to do with your end at this point now. Your job is done and the song is entering a mix stage where people may or may not choose additional creative measure. Spinning it, transforming, remixing, finishing it.. passing it on. Branding it.

From the recordists POV this may be insulting, however, from a creative POV, your job was as important as the next stage, you provided the bed-tracks for hybrid. The original session is now entering, evolving from organic to a more polished or even electronic shape.
Some might see this as a remix or evil. However, from my POV, its prepared for my creative work and where "more" fun begins.

Just like we you have microphones and preamps. Mixers have their tricks and methods.
Its not a question of the recordists claiming they can do this, that we made the originals back in the 70's. The idea that every studio is equal and capable of mixing the way I'm describing is seriously naive.

The idea that the traditional studio can even compete in background music from a pop POV (the bed tracks and programming I'm talking about) on a mass amount of music today is absurd. I'm not saying its right, but its been this way since digital. I don't think its about to go 100% back to the old days . If anything, its going more digital. Modern has a sound that takes shape in a mix room, after the tracking room on its way to the hybrid studio where there are people using samplers, VSTi, MPC's, virtual room simulators (Eventide, Bricasti's oh ya!) and have been programming audio for years to say the least. .. But, I also use analog gear as you all know. So I am crossing the barriers and including a better sounding mix as well. Depends.

This all being said, I cannot see a more enjoyable "MAX" life recording real musicians in a modest to lush recording studio on 5 acres or more. Its a dream of mine to finish my lake studio and take it easy. Musically organic easy I mean.
Nothing more I would love than to record, mix and pass on the CD to everyone involved. I love classical music and really love the sound of me and my buddies playing the shit we grew up with.
But, I never tell them what I do in my mix room. There is no point. They wouldn't get it nor appreciate it. They hate the whole concept of new and could not even grasp most of this.
They know I have a lot of shit here and that I am doing something really wild, but that's about it. I never talk about my electronic involvement . Its simply just too weird for them and its been this way for 30 years. Even when I started RO, I never talked about the mixing end. Its simply a weird area of music that is a bone of contention for the recordists in general.

The technology side I share here is all for fun. I'm too dated to care what fits in a lot of it today. I used to know sounds by numbers and be able to grab something in a library or patch in seconds. Now it takes me a while. My brain and heart is telling me to go to the lake.
My studio is set up for my kids now. I am tiring from all this nonsense really. I hate competing and really just want to play around with it all now. If they want it, their DAD knows what to do. I hope they use it cause it sure cost a shit load.

I wish their were more real musicians with money.

audiokid, post: 409155 wrote: I wish their were more real musicians with money.

I wish I was one of them. I'd love to set up a nice tracking room, get clear raw tracks, and then pass them off to one of you guys for mixing and mastering.

This new band I'm in is getting there. This thread will probably have a sequel in the future - they are now talking about treating the garage!

I'd love that!

I completely get where Chris is coming from. In todays world of recording there is more specialization than ever before. There's guys pulling down a decent living simply being really really good at ProTools editing (as well as other DAWS). They're arent much interested in the source quality except that tight tracks go easier into a grid. So, digital editing is a thing for now and for the future and its not a bad thing but a true necessity born out of technology applied to this art.

Then there's the mixers. Again, this has become a specialty with many long-time engineers and producers opting to build out a mix suite at their residence where they have unlimited access and their own clock to watch as well as being able to ultimately select gear that works as they like to work. You see a lot of these rooms being outfitted with a hybrid of old and new. A lot of SSL's reside at home.

There does seem to be a trend towards having sonically sound rooms still in use for tracking. I applaud this. Nothing much better than setting up a drum kit in a great sounding space and being able to mic it appropriate to the material. Its pretty amazing the number of older consoles still in use in these rooms...even more amazing is the number of consoles in these same rooms that sit idle during tracking or are simply routing for great headphone mixes while the ever present plethora of quality outboard gets used for basics. Artists like Dave Grohl ponying up to save an iconic room like Sound City brings hope. Yeah, he profited from his decision.....recordings,movie,videos in support...etc. Good business there......But it does speak to the ears of the younger generations finally coming to terms with the problematic sounds generated from pure digital.

Given the budget, I would also become a hybrid mix suite. Much on the same order as Chris. Its still a new job description and lucrative in the fact it costs so much to do correctly. There are plenty of purpose-built rooms available for this but the time constraints involved with booking a room for mixing only lends itself to a home suite with all the bells and whistles. I'm only a small part of the way there for myself so it remains , for me, to track and try to produce during mix. If someone has a budget and needs a bigger sound we go off campus to a better room.

I think all the elements are in place for a worldwide network of music production. Many are using this technology but theres still something just around the corner that will open it up for everyone. I'd love to be mixing Brazilian Dance music while at the same time mixing and tracking good old Americana and Blues.

MadMax, post: 408901 wrote: Uhhh... your choice is to track the drums, right??

So... uhhhh... track the drums.

I really don't understand some of the issues guys create out of nothing... I'm not ranting on you... but I am.

Your job is to track the drums... so track the damn drums... I fail to see what the issue is.

Too reverberant of a room? stick a few blankets up here and there. (although I seriously doubt the reverberation time in a garage is going to be too much for many styles of music.... Which, if that's the case, you're close micing anyway... just don't track rooms mic's and keep the OH's real close to the kit. There's no issue really...

Room isn't reverberant enough? Delay the room tracks or add on a bit more verb/delay... again, no issue.

Your job is to work with the artist to give them a product that they're happy with.

If you aren't capable of listening to your recording environment and knowing what you need to do modify that situation to get the desired results... then maybe you're not the guy for the gig.

The bottom line is this... a room is a room is a room... every environment has it's own sonic signature. You're either going to use that sonic signature as a feature, or you aren't. If you aren't, you need to tend to that need by altering your mic selection/technique, and/or the acoustic environment. That can be dealt with in many ways; drum tuning, damping/resonance, positioning from surfaces in the environment, and/or adding absorptive/reflective surfaces and/or isolation as Kurt has alluded to.

Unfortunately, unless you provide a good bit more detail about the "issue", no one can really tell you a reasonable path to follow to get what your artists vision is.

A bit harsh making statements as such on a website dedicated to help other people. And I'm not saying this to start a forum war but The guy is asking a very legitimate question and because tracking drums is a very time-consuming process I would want to know any shortcuts or tips to aid me in the process. Your response is really no different than someone asking how to put on guitar strings and telling them to just put them on and figure it out.

this isn't looking good. JackAttack, you watching all this nonsense?

nathanrice411, post: 409169 wrote: A bit harsh making statements as such on a website dedicated to help other people. And I'm not saying this to start a forum war but The guy is asking a very legitimate question and because tracking drums is a very time-consuming process I would want to know any shortcuts or tips to aid me in the process. Your response is really no different than someone asking how to put on guitar strings and telling them to just put them on and figure it out.

This is your first post here, so maybe you're not familiar with the fact that John's been here a pretty decent amount of time, and is by all my interaction, a pretty competent plank spanker and while "new" to tracking kit... it ain't his first rodeo... maybe his second, but not his first.

If you've got your feet wet, you deserve a little kick in the pants to suk it up and do the gig when you start that cold feet stuff.

If you ask me for directions, I probably know a dozen ways to get to the beach from my home... and each one gets you to the sand and water... just not the same beach. If you want to get to Holden, Salterpath or Atlantic Beach, now I can give you some pretty specific driving directions. Asking generalities can only lead to general answers... and if you read the thread in it's entirety, I think you'll find that most of us are saying this exact thing... and when the conversation delves into specifics... we follow right along with as specific of advice as can be conveyed.

At some point, no one can hold your hand when you do the session. It's sink or swim... the easiest thing to do is swim. The best way to swim is to coordinate your movements and actually think about what you're doing.

If you ask me for directions, I probably know a dozen ways to get to the beach from my home... and each one gets you to the sand and water... just not the same beach.

That's it, right there.

There are so many different parameters to the equation... the type/quality of drums, the heads, the room, the mics and ultimately, the player, and along with those things, what the end sound that is desired, that it's very difficult to do much more than tell someone to just go ahead and do it, and it's up to them to learn from there, based upon the situation(s) they face.

And, if the questions being asked are too general, then "general" answers are typically what you'll get.

The guy is asking a very legitimate question and because tracking drums is a very time-consuming process

Personally, I never found tracking drums to be all that "time consuming". If you have good mics, a decent room, a nice, well tuned kit and a great player, it's really not rocket science. ;)

DonnyThompson, post: 409173 wrote:
Personally, I never found tracking drums to be all that "time consuming". If you have good mics, a decent room, a nice, well tuned kit and a great player, it's really not rocket science. ;)

Agreed!

I have more "problems" and time invested in getting guitar tones that the plank spanker is happy with, than I ever do with drums/percussion.

From what I gather reading this thread, it sounds like most of you are giving me a vote of confidence in this. I'm not a total newbie anymore. I'm not up there with Alan Parsons yet, but I'm still not a total n00b.

So I will take the information you've given me and put it to good use. I'll get the cleanest raw tracks I can get and then process/shape from there.

I plan on doing multi-mic to make a multi-track recording so I can process each drum on it's own channel. I did pretty good my first time tracking real drums about a year ago. Not bad at all. It was a bigger garage with less reverb, and I got a good sound.

This rodeo I'm much more knowledgeable, thanks to RO!

Any more advice?

Thanks!
-Johntodd

while it's fine to use a bunch of mics, play it safe and include the basic set up of one or two overheads snare and kick. that way if things get phasey or weird you can always shut down the extra mics and get back to basics. at the same time this exercise may serve as a lesson to demonstrate the "keep it simple" approach. some of the best sounding drums were recorded that way. Bonnhams "When the Levee Breaks" was one overhead.