I tried the NT4 last year when I wanted to replace a pair of stolen AKG C452's. I was not very comfortable with the imaging it presented when recording acoustic guitar (67 Martin D18) and piano(Yamaha C7). It seemed that you could have a "sweet spot" for them, but I felt that it was too limiting. Turning the mic a bit here or there rendered bigger changes than I was after. Maybe it was just me. I ended up buying a pair of NT5's and have a lot more flexibility that a "real pair" SD condensers afford.I did find that the Rodes render what I refer to as "pro fidelity":very good extended top end response, smooth mids, solid bottom end (for a SD), and decent headroom. I think that either model is a true bargain. I have used them on a variety of live and studio gigs and they've held up pretty darned well (no matter what "sheet" says about Rode mics!) in the face of some pretty tough situations. My $0.02...

I'm with Moonbaby on this one. If you have a stereo bar,and a pair of NT5s, they're just as handy to carry around, and I can't think of any advantage by having the capsules locked in position. In real world situations, I've found it helpful to make little changes to the angle when using XY.

Good luck!

John Stafford

They are kind of bright and harsh, but they are cheap!

Buy oktava from http://www.OKTAVAUSA.COM
I just got matched stereo mk012a's for $324.
If you want to stick with the nt-4 go to http://www.bswusa.com
matched nt-4s are I think $270.

moonbaby wrote: I tried the NT4 last year when I wanted to replace a pair of stolen AKG C452's. I was not very comfortable with the imaging it presented when recording acoustic guitar (67 Martin D18) and piano(Yamaha C7). It seemed that you could have a "sweet spot" for them, but I felt that it was too limiting. Turning the mic a bit here or there rendered bigger changes than I was after. Maybe it was just me. I ended up buying a pair of NT5's and have a lot more flexibility that a "real pair" SD condensers afford.I did find that the Rodes render what I refer to as "pro fidelity":very good extended top end response, smooth mids, solid bottom end (for a SD), and decent headroom. I think that either model is a true bargain. I have used them on a variety of live and studio gigs and they've held up pretty darned well (no matter what "sheet" says about Rode mics!) in the face of some pretty tough situations. My $0.02...

I was affraid of the stereo "fixed" method of the nt4s------seems to me you would have greater flexability with 2 seprate nt5s.

impro wrote: Buy oktava from http://www.OKTAVAUSA.COM
I just got matched stereo mk012a's for $324.
If you want to stick with the nt-4 go to http://www.bswusa.com
matched nt-4s are I think $270.

never heard of the Oktava mics----------------------what would you compare them to?-----------how well do you like them?

atlasproaudio wrote: They are kind of bright and harsh, but they are cheap!

Whick condensor do you prefer for capturing the "true tone" of an acoustic guitar?

impro wrote: Buy oktava from http://www.OKTAVAUSA.COM
I just got matched stereo mk012a's for $324.
If you want to stick with the nt-4 go to http://www.bswusa.com
matched nt-4s are I think $270.

Hmmm... Matched nt-4 capsules???? I would hate to think they were anything but matched - seeing as how their two caps on the same body...

The quote I just got from them though was $359.

BTW... regarding Oktava USA - why do they think they can claim that they are the only Oktava dealers in the US? Um, have they heard of the Sound Room?

J.

Cucco wrote: BTW... regarding Oktava USA - why do they think they can claim that they are the only Oktava dealers in the US? Um, have they heard of the Sound Room?

J.

I just looked at Oktava USA's website.

$1299 for an MKL-5000 :o
Ha! Ha! Ha! That's the best laugh I've had in a long time!
John

Thanks! I agree. I bought the 2500 for $199. They have it for $699!!!!!

Hmm, what a joke!

eddies880 wrote: [quote=atlasproaudio]They are kind of bright and harsh, but they are cheap!

Whick condensor do you prefer for capturing the "true tone" of an acoustic guitar?

For how much $$$? Vintage Neumann, Schoeps, DPA, Gefell and Josephson are the names to look at. But the "true" stuff costs a minimum of $1K per mic, usually more like $2500 for a pair or more.

atlasproaudio wrote: They are kind of bright and harsh, but they are cheap!

I also think they can put a bit of a hard edge on things, but I have to admit I've been very pleasantly surprised by what they can do in the right circumstances. Schoeps they ain't of course.

John

I recently picked up a Rode NT4 for portable stereo recording and am very satisfied. The two fixed capsules are convenient and the fact that the mic can be battery-powered is a major advantage. I think the NT4 sounds full and not harsh, less bright than some other mics, which can be good. So its convenience outweighs the inflexibility for me. Definitely satisfied with the sound quality.

I must take issue with Nathan@Atlas Pro. First off, NO mic sounds great in every placement :( ...I did not see what mic YOU might recommend from the arsenal of franchises you carry as a DEALER.
Sure, there are a couple of options out there for a bit more $$$. The Josephson SD come to mind...at almost twice the price...and there is that matched stereo pair of Avenson OMNI's (great if you have the room for them!). 'Tis a poor salesman who trashes the competition.
To the guy who touted Oktava (!). They have experienced such a horrible reputation for poor quality control I can't believe that ANYONE would take them seriously, at any $$$.
As to the sound and quality of the Rodes, like I said: I wanted to replace a pair of stolen AKG C452EB's I had owned since 1978.
I have to say that the Rodes are helluva lot closer to them in sound than I expected. The onlty downside I have seen is that they don't seem to like loud hi-hats, but I have an AT4041 that can handle that gig, anyway. And they have already stood up against some pretty rough handling (choir members tripping over stands, the percussionist's errant stick, and bagpiper's spit!).
By the way, I looked at the Rodes (NT4,NT5) because of a "shoot-out" of stereo mics in MIX magazine a couple of years ago. They compared stereo mics from A-T, Sennheiser, Schoeps, Crown, the Rode NT4, and something else. Their comment on the Rode was that it was the most "professional-sounding" of the lot. :D

I don't recall Nathan saying anything about a mic for all placements. Nor did he bash the Rode. However, having access to ALL of those mics and more that he mentioned, I would tend to agree with his comments. While the Rode sounds great (and is on my personal short list), it certainly doesn't stack up to my Schoeps, Gefells, Josephsons, etc. However, for the money, and even beyond their cost, the Rodes are fantastic mics, capable of making very fine recordings.

As for the Mix review, that's why I don't put a lot of stock in what I read. I take it all with a grain of salt.

J.

moonbaby wrote: I must take issue with Nathan@Atlas Pro. First off, NO mic sounds great in every placement :( ...I did not see what mic YOU might recommend from the arsenal of franchises you carry as a DEALER.
Sure, there are a couple of options out there for a bit more $$$. The Josephson SD come to mind...at almost twice the price...and there is that matched stereo pair of Avenson OMNI's (great if you have the room for them!). 'Tis a poor salesman who trashes the competition.

You are way off base. The guy who I answered asked me a very specific question, which was 50% an off topic question, so I answered him with a very honest answer. I'm really trying hard to figure out how you can see inside my head and accuse me of telling someone a dishonest answer because I don't sell Rode? How's this for news: I DROPPED Rode from our line card by my own decision 2 years ago. I don't think they are that great. Yeah, they are okay for the money...I think less and less in those terms these days. So there you go, we actually carried the line, made profit off of it, and I didn't feel right selling it the general public. I guess you didn't see my response at the top of the thread. Check my gearlist at my studio. Do you see Rode anywhere on that list? No, you don't. What does that tell you? (that's a rhetorical question BTW). I'm not even sure what you are talking about in regards to 'all placements' with my recommendations. Please try and get your facts straight before you start slamming me, or applying some kind of general code of conduct that 'salesguys' must adhere to (I've been an engineer for FAR longer FYI so you're going to see some strong opinions) .

moonbaby wrote: I must take issue with Nathan@Atlas Pro. First off, NO mic sounds great in every placement :( ...I did not see what mic YOU might recommend from the arsenal of franchises you carry as a DEALER.
Sure, there are a couple of options out there for a bit more $$$. The Josephson SD come to mind...at almost twice the price...and there is that matched stereo pair of Avenson OMNI's (great if you have the room for them!). 'Tis a poor salesman who trashes the competition.
To the guy who touted Oktava (!). They have experienced such a horrible reputation for poor quality control I can't believe that ANYONE would take them seriously, at any $$$.
As to the sound and quality of the Rodes, like I said: I wanted to replace a pair of stolen AKG C452EB's I had owned since 1978.
I have to say that the Rodes are helluva lot closer to them in sound than I expected. The onlty downside I have seen is that they don't seem to like loud hi-hats, but I have an AT4041 that can handle that gig, anyway. And they have already stood up against some pretty rough handling (choir members tripping over stands, the percussionist's errant stick, and bagpiper's spit!).
By the way, I looked at the Rodes (NT4,NT5) because of a "shoot-out" of stereo mics in MIX magazine a couple of years ago. They compared stereo mics from A-T, Sennheiser, Schoeps, Crown, the Rode NT4, and something else. Their comment on the Rode was that it was the most "professional-sounding" of the lot. :D

very interesting-----------I would much rather use the NT5s,due to the flexability,as far as bswusa goes,I got a price of $275.00 for the NT4 from them through e-mail--------Im almost affraid to consider Oktava after youre comments about them.
How about the Shure Sm81?

atlasproaudio wrote: [quote=moonbaby]I must take issue with Nathan@Atlas Pro. First off, NO mic sounds great in every placement :( ...I did not see what mic YOU might recommend from the arsenal of franchises you carry as a DEALER.
Sure, there are a couple of options out there for a bit more $$$. The Josephson SD come to mind...at almost twice the price...and there is that matched stereo pair of Avenson OMNI's (great if you have the room for them!). 'Tis a poor salesman who trashes the competition.

You are way off base. The guy who I answered asked me a very specific question, which was 50% an off topic question, so I answered him with a very honest answer. I'm really trying hard to figure out how you can see inside my head and accuse me of telling someone a dishonest answer because I don't sell Rode? How's this for news: I DROPPED Rode from our line card by my own decision 2 years ago. I don't think they are that great. Yeah, they are okay for the money...I think less and less in those terms these days. So there you go, we actually carried the line, made profit off of it, and I didn't feel right selling it the general public. I guess you didn't see my response at the top of the thread. Check my gearlist at my studio. Do you see Rode anywhere on that list? No, you don't. What does that tell you? (that's a rhetorical question BTW). I'm not even sure what you are talking about in regards to 'all placements' with my recommendations. Please try and get your facts straight before you start slamming me, or applying some kind of general code of conduct that 'salesguys' must adhere to (I've been an engineer for FAR longer FYI so you're going to see some strong opinions) .Ive taken the time to take a look at youre studio on the youire web site WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Thanks for youre honest answer ,as far as youre opinion on a good condensor for acoustic micing.
Nathan-----------wahts" youre "opinion on the Shure SM81 for micing acoustic?

I realize that you didn't ask me, but the SM81 is probably a better mic for acoustic guitar, and a single-point source is much easier to deal with than dealing with stereo mic'ing, especially in less-than-ideal environments. You might also look at the AT 4041. Mine is much smoother on the top than the Rodes.
My comment to Nathan was simply this: you made a very broad statement about he Rodes that sounded a bit bitter. You offer a MUCH better line of mics, to be sure. Your site lists Josephson. I don't understand why you didn't make the recommendation of 1 of their SD's as a starting point for this guy (i.e., "The Rodes are not the greatest, but if you REALLY want to get professional results, you might consider getting a single Josephson C42, and adding to that later...") I dunno...I smell another Fletcher :)
As far as the comment about magazine articles is concerned, I do take them with a grain of salt. I DO put more stock in MIX reviews. They don't seem to rave about everything the way a lot of the others do. And Atlas seems to agree...he lists their web link for reviews on the gear he sells. PEACE..

moonbaby wrote: I realize that you didn't ask me, but the SM81 is probably a better mic for acoustic guitar, and a single-point source is much easier to deal with than dealing with stereo mic'ing, especially in less-than-ideal environments. You might also look at the AT 4041. Mine is much smoother on the top than the Rodes.
My comment to Nathan was simply this: you made a very broad statement about he Rodes that sounded a bit bitter. You offer a MUCH better line of mics, to be sure. Your site lists Josephson. I don't understand why you didn't make the recommendation of 1 of their SD's as a starting point for this guy (i.e., "The Rodes are not the greatest, but if you REALLY want to get professional results, you might consider getting a single Josephson C42, and adding to that later...") I dunno...I smell another Fletcher :)
As far as the comment about magazine articles is concerned, I do take them with a grain of salt. I DO put more stock in MIX reviews. They don't seem to rave about everything the way a lot of the others do. And Atlas seems to agree...he lists their web link for reviews on the gear he sells. PEACE..

So,basically,whats youre saying is:the SM81,is a better tool for micing acoustics?----------------if I do purchase an 81-----------Am I paying for the name,or am I paying for a good condensor mic.
Ive used shure for half of my life (25yrs)more so for live,and they have never failed me live on stage--------but recording is a hole different story.

I DO think that the SM81 is a better mic for acoustic guitars. I have used them live and in a local churches ProTools facility. They do very well for steel strings. Overheads and violins, too. The KSM32 is also decent for that, but I think that guitar takes to a small-diaphragm better. I use that KSM mainly for piano. I don't personally own an 81.Started to, but really needed a stereo pair for the remotes I do, and the Rodes have done me well. But they do suffer tonal "edginess" when pushed (close-mic'ed hi-hats, Leslie top rotors,etc.). Based on YOUR needs, I think that the 81 should do great.
I do not believe that you are paying "for the name". No more than any other similar line. I, too, have never been let down by the Shure product line (SM57/58, Beta 57/87, etc.). And EV, too. It usually has been the German stuff that crashed on me...PEACE.

moonbaby wrote: I DO think that the SM81 is a better mic for acoustic guitars. I have used them live and in a local churches ProTools facility. They do very well for steel strings. Overheads and violins, too. The KSM32 is also decent for that, but I think that guitar takes to a small-diaphragm better. I use that KSM mainly for piano. I don't personally own an 81.Started to, but really needed a stereo pair for the remotes I do, and the Rodes have done me well. But they do suffer tonal "edginess" when pushed (close-mic'ed hi-hats, Leslie top rotors,etc.). Based on YOUR needs, I think that the 81 should do great.
I do not believe that you are paying "for the name". No more than any other similar line. I, too, have never been let down by the Shure product line (SM57/58, Beta 57/87, etc.). And EV, too. It usually has been the German stuff that crashed on me...PEACE.

Thanks for the reply---Im gonna keep my eyes focused on the 81.

I guess it's a matter of different strokes for different folks. I personally would use the NT4s on acoustic instruments long before I'd use the SM81. IMO, the 81 is brittle, bright and brash.

I also don't think Nathan's remark was that despariging and I certainly don't see the need for him to promote his products. How this makes him like Fletcher, I just don't get the connection. Did he use a lot of fowl language that I'm not aware of?

The fact is that Nathan does a lot of good here by giving honest opinions based on fact and experience. Whether he decides to promote a product that he sells or not is his choice. I know personally that I only sell produts that I believe in and find to be of utmost quality. It appears by Nathan's site that this is probably the case for him as well.

J. 8-)

Cucco wrote: I guess it's a matter of different strokes for different folks. I personally would use the NT4s on acoustic instruments long before I'd use the SM81. IMO, the 81 is brittle, bright and brash.

I also don't think Nathan's remark was that despariging and I certainly don't see the need for him to promote his products. How this makes him like Fletcher, I just don't get the connection. Did he use a lot of fowl language that I'm not aware of?

The fact is that Nathan does a lot of good here by giving honest opinions based on fact and experience. Whether he decides to promote a product that he sells or not is his choice. I know personally that I only sell produts that I believe in and find to be of utmost quality. It appears by Nathan's site that this is probably the case for him as well.

J. 8-)

Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!---------------Very interesting,so.....you prefer to use the the nt4s,instead of the sm81.
Im sure that the preamp has alot to due with it also/doesnt it?.
The preamp Im gonna be using is a Sebatron 2000e-----------------------------------so which one do I purchase?------they both sound like there good condensors(matter of opinion).
I cant spend 1k on a "real" condensor,but I can handle 4 to 5 bills

Last night,I went to the studio with the SM81s and took my NT5s and a Grace 101. I did some comparisons using a very good guitarist (a student of Doyle Dikes, a Chet-style fingerpicker) with a nice Taylor guitar. He played in a medium-sized iso booth (12'x12') Know what? We all agreed that the SM81 was smoother and more detailed than the Rodes. "Heftier" feel, too. Go figure. You might go to the "acoustic instruments" section of this forum and see what other users are having good results using.
As to these 2 dealers playing "good cop, bad cop", no, Nathan didn't use "fowl" :? language. He used the word "cheap" in a way that insulted any Rode owner. He does not sell that product, so down it goes...I believe that is the criticism Fletcher gets all the time. In fairness to Nathan, I have read several of his posts touting what he sells and he is usually professional and succinct in his presentations. I was a bit taken back by his generalizations of the Rode. Placement is key with that mic, as I said before. Rode mics are not "cheap". Samson and Behringers are. The Rodes are a good step above them. PEACE

Believe me, I don't want to get bogged down in discussions that are significantly off-topic, but I believe you either mis-read Nathan's post or read more into it than he intended.

He stated two negatives about the Rodes -
They are bright
They are harsh

Then he states **But** - they are cheap. Cheap meaning inexpensive, not meaning of poor build quality. I don't find that post to be demeaning in the slightest. I disagree that I don't find them harsh, but they are cheap(inexpensive) and they are bright.

BTW, the sentiment towards the NT4s on the Acoustic site is that they are bright, inexpensive and a great value for the money. I haven't seen anyone weigh in heavily against them there.

J.

Fair enough,Cucco.I guess that I took the term "cheap''in the wrong way. I apologise for the error. And after last night, I kind of wish that I had an SM81 for my own guitar recording.... :(

Cool.

I'm glad the 81 worked for you. I know a lot of people love it and really use it as their "baseline" by which all other pencil mics are judged. I will give it that, despite my previous comments, it can be a versatile mic, especially give the control options built in on the mic.

BTW, have you tried the Josephsons? EWW, they're great! (They're fugly, but they sound like butta)

J.

PS - I don't sell Josephsons, so I'm not trying to be biased. However, I do sell Audix and I'll be glad to self-promote those - they sound great on guitar too (SCX-1s or SCX-25s) :D

I am very interested in the Josephsons...very intriguing. Part of my frustration with Atlas is that I had called them last month to get some sort of reference (i.e., a customer of theirs who has purchased that mic from them)...never got a call back. I used the $500.00 towards something else (another Brick). I will attempt to get more info later. We have several Audix OM-5/6 mics, and some sort of drum kit package. Very impressed. We have discussed upgrading the piano mics from KSMs to the SCX-25. Thanks...

moonbaby wrote: Last night,I went to the studio with the SM81s and took my NT5s and a Grace 101. I did some comparisons using a very good guitarist (a student of Doyle Dikes, a Chet-style fingerpicker) with a nice Taylor guitar. He played in a medium-sized iso booth (12'x12') Know what? We all agreed that the SM81 was smoother and more detailed than the Rodes. "Heftier" feel, too. Go figure. You might go to the "acoustic instruments" section of this forum and see what other users are having good results using.
As to these 2 dealers playing "good cop, bad cop", no, Nathan didn't use "fowl" :? language. He used the word "cheap" in a way that insulted any Rode owner. He does not sell that product, so down it goes...I believe that is the criticism Fletcher gets all the time. In fairness to Nathan, I have read several of his posts touting what he sells and he is usually professional and succinct in his presentations. I was a bit taken back by his generalizations of the Rode. Placement is key with that mic, as I said before. Rode mics are not "cheap". Samson and Behringers are. The Rodes are a good step above them. PEACE

Moonbaby-----------thanks for comparing the mics,I went to a local studio,and asked the same questions Ive already asked here at RO,,,,,,got the same results......go figure.
Im gonna go with the 81---------BTW,,,,,where was youre mic placement when you recorded the Taylor?

Pointed towards the soundhole, but with an angle towards the neck, if you can visualize that. I guess that it was about 8-10" away from the guitar. The angle will determine the "boom factor" and the amount of string noise you'll pick up. We also tried approaching the guitar from the bridge, pointing the mic at an angle towards the rear of the bridge, about a foot away. That yielded a brighter sound (of course!), better for hard strumming rhythm parts. Don't ask me what model Taylor....it has a cutaway mahogany body, a spruce top, and a really nice pick-up system (which we kept out of the equation)...I know his dad brags that it cost $3K...When I was his age, my CAR didn't cost that!

moonbaby wrote: Pointed towards the soundhole, but with an angle towards the neck, if you can visualize that. I guess that it was about 8-10" away from the guitar. The angle will determine the "boom factor" and the amount of string noise you'll pick up. We also tried approaching the guitar from the bridge, pointing the mic at an angle towards the rear of the bridge, about a foot away. That yielded a brighter sound (of course!), better for hard strumming rhythm parts. Don't ask me what model Taylor....it has a cutaway mahogany body, a spruce top, and a really nice pick-up system (which we kept out of the equation)...I know his dad brags that it cost $3K...When I was his age, my CAR didn't cost that!

$3k ?----------Wow!!!!-----Hope its sounds as good as the price.
What preamp is being used?

We were using the Grace for the test. He plugs into some Fender Acousonic (?) amp onstage and then that goes out to a MIDAS H3000 56-channel house console, via the amps XLR DI out...

moonbaby wrote: We were using the Grace for the test. He plugs into some Fender Acousonic (?) amp onstage and then that goes out to a MIDAS H3000 56-channel house console, via the amps XLR DI out...

56 Channel!!!!??
Holy Crap!!!!!

moonbaby wrote: Part of my frustration with Atlas is that I had called them last month to get some sort of reference (i.e., a customer of theirs who has purchased that mic from them)...never got a call back..

There are many reasons why you may not have been able to get a hold of me. We were at the Tape Op conference from June 8th-14th, relying on forwarded cell phone and email for communication, sometimes messages don't get through or they are garbled, or sometimes people don't think they leave a call back number and they thought they did. If anyone can't get a hold of me, just try again in a little while or email me. I'm available usually 15 hours a day, 90% of time by phone, the other few hours by email (I'm writing this it's 1:30 AM and have another couple of emails to answer).

I hope that there aren't any other people out there who harbor any resentment towards me or my company due to a communication breakdown. Most people know me pretty well, and know that if they can't get a hold of me right this minute they can get to me one of the other 104 available hours (literally) out of the week.

Yeah, I've got a beef with you Nathan!!!

I called you but didn't leave a message and damnit, you never called me back!!! :twisted:

Actually, I'll spill the beans - I don't usually share where I buy things - but I bought my Lynx Aurora 8 from Nathan. It was the one they used at TapeOp as the demo. Not only was the "demo" in absolutely perfect condition (hell, they even repacked it in such a way that I couldn't even tell the box had been opened), I got it the next day. Now, granted, they're pretty close to me physically, so it was probably just a normal function of FedEx/UPS ( I don't recall which one), but the fact that I called him at 3:30 and he shipped it the same day - despite a busy schedule, I'm damned impressed!

Don't worry Nate-Dawg - I gots your back!!

J. (y)