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24 Tracks Control Behringer-Buy or Sell? How can I simplify my workflow.

What a challenge.
Im simple, I like old school play rewind fast forward record
push the button and go
Ive had tape machines, Adats, HD 24, and now using the Behringer X Touch with 2 Extenders to have 24 tracks of control.
Its a studio in my home, mostly for my projects.
I find I havent been using the X touch at all, other than play and record.
Thats expensive 2K for just a few buttons. I stand when I play and record and find I wish I had my mics plugged in with faders and eq on my 7 foot rack so that I can walk up and pull the fader up and use the eq. believe it or not Ive been looking at the really old Tascam M-208 Mixer. Then I though for control I could use a PreSonus faderport. 1 channel, with the simple controls.
I use reaper, and mis with harrison mixbus. Im going into a clarett 4 pre.
Any suggestions would be helpful.

Comments

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 12:46

hey there.

Transport controls are easy enough via a QWERTY keyboard, even in commercial studios with full consoles, and control surfaces, this is usually how i do it.

I own a tascam M-30 mixer thats been sitting around for quite some time. one thing to keep in mind is the condition of the mixer. mine has scratchy pots, and doesnt have phantom power, or balanced connections for that matter. i wouldnt guess this would be the best solution. while the X-former based pre's are decent, there are far superior desktop mixers available out there.

have you considered the berringer X-32 digital mixer? this allows you to patch in your rack gear, and slide up the faders, while doubling as a HUI controller.

theres nothing wrong with single channel control surfaces like the fader port, i have used the old aplha track single channel controller in my home studio a while back. in some ways its nice to have it snap to watever track your working on, but the single fader limitation comes into play when you want to adjust a track that isnt currently selected. that forces you to click on the track to adjust it, making it faster to just use the mouse/trackball/trackpad instead.

the clarrett allows you to control your input gains remotely. it seems to me a wireless keyboard and mouse/ect, might be your simplest ticket. the main use for fader based units, is for the faders, if you find your not using them, then anything that controls transport works as good as the other imho.

phantomvintageclosed Sat, 06/30/2018 - 13:27

Thanks guys. Yeah it was just a thought about the mixer. Didnt realize it didnt have phantom, which I need. Yes the X-32 I did think about. Something that would allow me to pretty much do everything from there.
But do I need it is the question? Do I really need it.
I seem to always go back. Was even looking at this because it also had 4 xlr inputs : http://tascam.com/product/fw-1082/images/
The old Tascam was just a thought and I wouldnt be doing my recordings any favors noise wise.
Also has technology up to par with specialized keyboards for DAW's like reaper? I've seen one with Pro Tools before.

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 13:38

besides needing a firewire port, the tascam doesnt have scribble strips, making it difficult to know what track your controlling. thats the main reason i never bought it when i was considering it.

we put some stickers on the number pad on the mac keyboard to indicate play, rec, FF, RW.

phantomvintagegear, post: 457956, member: 40493 wrote: Yes the X-32 I did think about. Something that would allow me to pretty much do everything from there.
But do I need it is the question? Do I really need it.

to me, if you needed something, its because you cant do what your trying to do without it. there's also the learning curve, and cost of entry involved. it covers alot of bases, and is well received by the owners i know. ive used it a couple times and feel like it sounds good. that said its a fairly hefty investment in time and money if your not sure your gonna get full use out of it. really your the only one who can ultimately answer this question, and it depends on our workflow ect, ect.

my personal preference would be for a high end ADDA instead, since it has the most impact on the sonics in and out of the computer.

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 14:38

phantomvintagegear, post: 457958, member: 40493 wrote: Thx Kmetal. Yes I keep hearing about putting the money into ADDA and investing sonically. Any recommendations? Keep the Clarett 4 pre?

Burl, Apogee, Lavry, RME (adi series), DAD, Prism, all make top notch, high performance conversion. Grace has an 8ch preamp/converter unit that im personally interested in. They're a step up in price and performance relative to the clarett series, which is a mid teir line. So much depends on your channel count, connectivity, and taste requirements.

without having any idea of your musical preferences, your monitors, mics, outboard gear, instruments, and listening environment, its tough to make s call as to whether the clarett is the weak link.

based on what i can infer, i would imagine the room acoustics, and monitoring is likely the weak link, as its usually the weak link in most home/project studios. ive spent over a decade learning about acoustics, and building studios, so i have an appreciation for what a good room and monitoring system does to the recording experience- it simplifies it, and makes it much more fun, without guesswork. id lay mt focus there first, as you cant mix what you cant hear. this assumes a decent instrument and a mic like an sm-57 or similarly ubiquitous studio standard. Without good accurate monitoring and a good sounding tracking space, you wont necessarily get the most out of high performance conversion, since the difference can be sublte, but is otherwise un-attainable.

if those are covered i high end channel strip can really bring up the quality level.

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 15:09

Some rigid fiberglass and a little elbow grease can go a long way. youve got good monitors.

phantomvintagegear, post: 457961, member: 40493 wrote: This looks quite interesting.
Grace Design m103 Single Channel Mic Pre/EQ/Compressor

ive never used it, but grace doesnt make anything thats compromised. in the budget category the presonus eureka is a killer buy. the polar opposite sound of the grace would be a neve channel strip, BAE makes some killer recreations used by people like Steve Vai. it really depends on what your recording. im personally interested in the clean/clear side of sound tracking these days, since ive spent alot of time with some other wonderful alternatives. You might like the Focusrtie ISA channel strip, as something sonically in between a neve and grace.

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 18:51

phantomvintagegear, post: 457964, member: 40493 wrote: Ah man I knew it. I had a Eureka by fluke never learned to use it properly but to my ears sounded incredible. Nobody listened and I sold it.
That might be all I need into the TRS of the Clarett 4 pre. also I always wanted to hear the Focusrite ISA One Analog. Any idea how they compare?

ive used both, and they are both good. they have the same price point, and id say they're roughly equal as units. the thing to remember however is the eureka has a compressor, and eq, so its not apples to apples. as a standalone pre amp, the isa is imho better (fuller, more open), tho the eureka is a transformer coupled pre, and not a slouch, and not too far behind the isa. the eureka compressor is very transparent and useful, and the eq isnt bad, i usually found myself using it to cut a couple db of low, or boost a little high. some people are for some reason scared to eq or compress on the way in, i prefer to do so (when the source calls for it) as i like to dial in the sound as much as possible at tracking. it leaves less futzing and dsp usage later on, and is more inspiring during tracking.

the answers to kurts questions will really help narrow things down. both units are versatile, and i have more experiences with the eureka, i find it excels at a 'modern' vocal sound, snare, overheads, and is decent for acoustics. the compressor comes into play with vocals and drums. the isa is more 'classy', and im sure no slouch anywhere, although ive primarily heard it on vocals. what you do get is something Rupert Neve designed, and one part of a big budget console design.

if it were between the two, and i was doing multiple different sources, and not getting anything else, id have to err toward the eureka because you get the compressor and eq which can be patched into/bypassed. if i was starting from pre amp, and looking to add on a nice compressor and eq as i could, id for with the isa. ive always particularly liked the isa and found it better than alot of things out there, price indifferent. it sits comfortably next to calrec, manley, and api, and is not a compromise, just another option. at least from my experiences at my home base studios. FWIW an isa 424 is on my hitlist nd has been for sometime, and the 828 is even better cost per channel-wise. i would have gotten a eureka or two, already, but i have acess to 6 of them, so thats enough.

Kurt Foster, post: 457965, member: 7836 wrote: -1 on anything PreSonus.

the eureka is the ONLY presonus unit id personally buy (happily at least) i opted for focusrite scarlet when i needed a $100 interface. the eureka is a real unit, if you ever try one, give it a fair shot. it sits fine amonsgt the big dogs, and ive selected it over the big dogs for some things. watever thats worth.

Kurt Foster, post: 457965, member: 7836 wrote: what do you record? are you recording by yourself or ensembles? do you use a mic or mics? if so, what kind? i got the impression you are recording guitars for the most part. are you doing drum tracks or keys too?

+1's

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 18:58

phantomvintagegear, post: 457966, member: 40493 wrote: I record
Guitars
Elecric
Acoustic
Bass
Keys
Vocals
I get other people to do drums

My mics are
Rode nt3
Cad e300
Neuamn tlm 103
melodyne 42B
Rode ntk
And a few others

man, id trade out those mics. get a tlm 102, some sm57's, and a cascade ribbon mic with the (jensen?) transformer option instead. then plug that into my nice new pre/channel strip. maybe a nice high quality DI box too, depending on if you amp up the keys and bass. something like the grace channel strip would probably do wonders for that variety of sources, and 'stack' quite well. (not knocking those mics, just think theres significantly better especially in the same or lesser price ranges- ive used the rode ntk, and tlm103)

Kurt Foster Sat, 06/30/2018 - 19:00

phantomvintagegear, post: 457966, member: 40493 wrote: I record
Guitars
Elecric
Acoustic
Bass
Keys
Vocals
I get other people to do drums

My mics are
Rode nt3
Cad e300
Neuamn tlm 103
melodyne 42B
Rode ntk
And a few others

.

so i vote for an ISA. Focusrite makes a cool 4 channel unit. Focusrite 428.

they are very down the middle as far as colored or transparent. if a person can't get a good recording out of an ISA, they should give it up.

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 19:18

Kurt Foster, post: 457969, member: 7836 wrote: .

so i vote for an ISA. Focusrite makes a cool 4 channel unit. Focusrite 428.

they are very down the middle as far as colored or transparent. if a person can't get a good recording out of an ISA, they should give it up.

i hate that they got rid of the beautiful classic looking VU meters on the 428mk2. its really tough to go wrong with an ISA.

phantomvintageclosed Sat, 06/30/2018 - 19:48

Ok here goes

Warm Audio EQP-WA
Warm Audio WA-76
Groove Tubes The Brick Mic Pre
Clarett 4 Mic Pre
UAD Satellite Quad -Two of those
about 26 UAD Plugins
Behringer x Touch and 2 Extenders-I just boxed up
Behringer Motor 49 Keyboard Controller

Mics
Neuman TLM 103
Rode NTK
Rode NT3
Cad E-300
Studio Projects B-1
Golden Age TC-1
2 SM-57's
2 SM-58's
2 AKG-880
Melodium 42B Ribbon Mic (Made in France)
Sennheiser 421

Would love to know on what to keep and what to sell in your opinions
to maximize my studio

Attached files

phantomvintageclosed Sat, 06/30/2018 - 20:05

I havent really had the chance to work with it properly
been having trouble connecting it properly to clarett
followed some instructions and it started feeding back and cant monitor the eq or comp
those are my weak points, the learning curves I have no patience for
I believe the output of the warm audio into the clarett in and then the in of warm audio into the out
then I open up reainsert in reaper
set the channels in the drop down list
I get levels but frustrated cause I dont have this stuff working and it might be great who knows
the eq was also modded by someone to have more headroom, clarity, and other stuff

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 20:33

excuse the all the quotes, not sure how else to do it. ill assume used is OK with you, i usually buy new only.

phantomvintagegear, post: 457978, member: 40493 wrote: Neuman TLM 103
Rode NTK
Rode NT3
Cad E-300
Studio Projects B-1
Golden Age TC-1

id trade all these for $$. id look into a serious large diaphragm condenser, i found my akg 414xls, excellent, and versatile, and ive heard excellent demonstrations of the Mojave audio tube mic, its likely my next mic. you could almost swing both, if you got full used price for yours. i think the rode nt5 is an underrated SDC, and the perfect match for a taylor acoustic guitar for pop, but prefer the shure sm81 for its versatility and smoother sound. you could likely swing a mojave and sm81, or a 414 and mojave, even swap. a 414 and sm81 is the most practical combo of what ive mentioned, and where id start. id strongly consider an sm7-b as well. those are all tried and true, no compromise mics, that "relatively" affordable. i do feel the tlm 102 outperforms the 103. ive used both.

phantomvintagegear, post: 457978, member: 40493 wrote: 2 SM-57's
2 SM-58's

keepers.

phantomvintagegear, post: 457978, member: 40493 wrote: Melodium 42B Ribbon Mic (Made in France)

never heard of it, but would keep it on looks alone! nevermind if it sounds cool too!

phantomvintagegear, post: 457978, member: 40493 wrote: 2 AKG-880

no experience with these, but maybe put those towards an akg d112 for versatility, or just keep'em.

phantomvintagegear, post: 457978, member: 40493 wrote: Sennheiser 421

wonderful, love it on toms, kicks, vocals, guitar amps... id trade it even however for an sm7B only

phantomvintagegear, post: 457978, member: 40493 wrote: Behringer x Touch and 2 Extenders-I just boxed up

sell for a high end channel strip.

phantomvintagegear, post: 457978, member: 40493 wrote: Warm Audio EQP-WA
Warm Audio WA-76

i dont like "knock offs" but having not heard them i can't say for sure. i can speculate that any compressor or eq you get in a high end channel strip will render these useless, or that a good old dbx166 xl, or 2 dbx 163x's, and a rane peq15 will be as much fun or more, just as useful and leave money towards your Primo Channel.

phantomvintagegear, post: 457978, member: 40493 wrote: Clarett 4 Mic Pre

keep for now, until the Room tuning, and high end front end is complete, that will then render the clarett the weak link.

phantomvintagegear, post: 457978, member: 40493 wrote: UAD Satellite Quad -Two of those
about 26 UAD Plugins

all you'll ever need for dsp for now. except maybe fabfilters eq and limiter

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 21:11

what i found after owning a bunch of project studio gear, and then building and being a staffer at two commercial studios, is good monitoring, and a couple nice professional pieces, studio standards, is what gets me closest to the sound of a 'real record', which i still fall short of. assuming professional level performance and songs. a few studio staple mics, nothing boutique, a couple channels of top notch conversion, and a good front end, mic pre at least, is really all it takes. monetarily most project studios probably spend far more than they need, while chasing their tails sonically. less ends up more, and it lasts longer, and retains value. having just unloaded over 2k worth of rode, ART, m-audio, et al, i regrouped with a scarlett solo, avid eleven, and about 10k worth of top notch software, which i got on sale, over a three year period for around 5-6k. im working on the monitoring, and conversion. its to me about offering something most people wont. most people want the thing in the add, or the sample set thats TB instead of a couple GB. it doesnt mean things like a eureka or art, arent good, or worth having, its just, most times your only using one or two channels at home, they may as well be top choice.

i shop at the top and the bottom for tools, musical gear, and computers, with mid level being kinda shitty, and kinda expensive, relativity speaking. cars, i go mid.

i had the experience of listening in a great room, with an ipod, connected directly to the mains. as we added the desk, the big knob, the motu, things progressivley got worse and worse. my easiest sessions there were vocals thru an sm7, calrec, summit tla-100, apogee rosetta, thats not a cheap chain. but it rendered the other 30k of gear unnecessary in those sessions. it opened my eyes.

sorry, i felt i needed to explain before i came off snotty, pushy, elitist, or worse a gear salesman. if its a choice between a bunch of mid level, or equal $ amount, for a couple commercial level, ill take a couple choice pieces every time nowadays, having traveled both roads.

PS- ive heard nothing but excellent things about the GT brick, id hang on to that one. GT was one heck of a company while they lasted, i wish i had been keener.

kmetal Sat, 06/30/2018 - 22:44

phantomvintagegear, post: 457988, member: 40493 wrote: This is absolutly awesome. I need that transparency.
Now if someone could help me properly hook up the warm audio gear to the clarett, id love to here what they sound like to make an assessment.

this is something ive never personally done, heres what i could find. the first link has a box about 3/4 of the way down, that addresses the general procedure and reaper specifically. hopefully it helps.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/hardware-software-studio

https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207359085-How-do-I-set-up-and-use-an-external-effects-processor-as-an-insert-when-tracking-

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/using-outboard-gear

kmetal Sun, 07/01/2018 - 19:22

phantomvintagegear, post: 457992, member: 40493 wrote: Excellent, thanks so much. Im feeling hopeful. Thanks for all your help.
Btw what level is Great River compared to the ISA for example? Are they another clone?

glad to assist ya. Great River is a Neve 1073 clone, and i have never used it. BAE is where to go for neve clones, other than Neve itself. they have different price ranges, which reflect the component choice, and assembly method, but all BAE stuff is good. My buddy has a whole rack of stuff including manly, api, bae, apogee, and great river, and has hi praise for the BAE stuff. he's one of those people that has nothing but the best, as far as gear goes, so i take his words seriously. he does tremendous research before purchase. You'll hear that the original BAE stuff is better than the new stuff, but who cares, i think slash uses bae.

one thing about the ISA in your case specifically- the clarett has the 'air' button which is supposed to resemble the ISA. i havent heard any a/b's, but they are both focusrite products. assuming its 'pretty close' this might be enough for you to explore another option for a pre amp. mainly a heavily colored x-former based design ala' neve, or a transistor based pristine one ala' grace. especially since you've got a decent tube based pre amp in the GT. This isnt to say that the ISA wont outperform the clarett/air button, just to say it 'might' be a close enough allusion. to me personally 'close/almost' is worse, and more frustrating than off by a mile, but im an odd duck in many regards.

as far as connecting the eq/compressor, are you dead set on having them function as an insert in the daw or trying to use it in conjunction w the clarett pre's? if i were using your setup, id go GT>EQ>Compressor>line ins. and then use the clarett pres/air knob, for variety. just imho.

Kurt Foster Sun, 07/01/2018 - 19:29

i did a review of the Great River MP-2NV and i will say it is stellar. just as good as any vintage Neve, built like a tank and the owner of the company Dan Kennedy is a stand up guy who knows his sh*t. i hated to have to send it back but he couldn't discount it enough for me to be able to afford it at the time. i would have kept though if i could have. Not much else to say about that!

phantomvintageclosed Sun, 07/01/2018 - 21:03

Kurt Foster, post: 458003, member: 7836 wrote: i did a review of the Great River MP-2NV and i will say it is stellar. just as good as any vintage Neve, built like a tank and the owner of the company Dan Kennedy is a stand up guy who knows his sh*t. i hated to have to send it back but he couldn't discount it enough for me to be able to afford it at the time. i would have kept though if i could have. Not much else to say about that!

Awesome thanks Kurt, not sure what the price is new, but I know where theres a used one.

phantomvintageclosed Sun, 07/01/2018 - 21:08

Kurt Foster, post: 458003, member: 7836 wrote: i did a review of the Great River MP-2NV and i will say it is stellar. just as good as any vintage Neve, built like a tank and the owner of the company Dan Kennedy is a stand up guy who knows his sh*t. i hated to have to send it back but he couldn't discount it enough for me to be able to afford it at the time. i would have kept though if i could have. Not much else to say about that!

kmetal, post: 458002, member: 37533 wrote: glad to assist ya. Great River is a Neve 1073 clone, and i have never used it. BAE is where to go for neve clones, other than Neve itself. they have different price ranges, which reflect the component choice, and assembly method, but all BAE stuff is good. My buddy has a whole rack of stuff including manly, api, bae, apogee, and great river, and has hi praise for the BAE stuff. he's one of those people that has nothing but the best, as far as gear goes, so i take his words seriously. he does tremendous research before purchase. You'll hear that the original BAE stuff is better than the new stuff, but who cares, i think slash uses bae.

one thing about the ISA in your case specifically- the clarett has the 'air' button which is supposed to resemble the ISA. i havent heard any a/b's, but they are both focusrite products. assuming its 'pretty close' this might be enough for you to explore another option for a pre amp. mainly a heavily colored x-former based design ala' neve, or a transistor based pristine one ala' grace. especially since you've got a decent tube based pre amp in the GT. This isnt to say that the ISA wont outperform the clarett/air button, just to say it 'might' be a close enough allusion. to me personally 'close/almost' is worse, and more frustrating than off by a mile, but im an odd duck in many regards.

as far as connecting the eq/compressor, are you dead set on having them function as an insert in the daw or trying to use it in conjunction w the clarett pre's? if i were using your setup, id go GT>EQ>Compressor>line ins. and then use the clarett pres/air knob, for variety. just imho.

I will have to check out the BAE stuff for sure. Im wondering the same thing about how far or close the isa and the clarett come with one another. I also agree with you as far as if they are similar to explore other options. Im gonna do a test file with and without air to see what it sounds like. Yeah I like your idea better, I cant seem to get it to work properly even following instructions. is it possible the clarett wont monitor the signal? User error? who knows. Im going to try your way, so much easier and should work off the bat. talk soon.

phantomvintageclosed Sun, 07/01/2018 - 21:09

phantomvintagegear, post: 458006, member: 40493 wrote: I will have to check out the BAE stuff for sure. Im wondering the same thing about how far or close the isa and the clarett come with one another. I also agree with you as far as if they are similar to explore other options. Im gonna do a test file with and without air to see what it sounds like. Yeah I like your idea better, I cant seem to get it to work properly even following instructions. is it possible the clarett wont monitor the signal? User error? who knows. Im going to try your way, so much easier and should work off the bat. talk soon.